Hello Steve,

I will tell you at the outset that you have raised conundrums for which I have no adequate answer.  But here are my responses:

STEVE said: Do you have problems with God commanding Joshua to slaughter all, to spare no one - man, woman and child (Some have argued that children are born innocent and pure and yet God ordered their destruction)? Do you have problems with Him choosing Abraham and his seed as His chosen people to reveal Himself to the world?

WYLY: During much of the Old Testament era, God was active in history and He made choices: Abel’s sacrifice, Abraham, Isaac, the Jews, David, and the various prophets as mouthpieces.  It is also my belief that there were other “saved” people besides those chosen----Melchizedek, those that Christ referred to.

So far as the slaughter of children, it would be my belief they were not lost any way.  I am not a believer in original sin.



STEVE said: In the example above, do you think God acted unjustly? Do you think God was responsible that they were lost?

WYLY: Unjustly?   The best answer I can come up with is “God is God and can do what he wants.”  Obviously, the question gives me trouble.  So far as being responsible for their being lost, I don’t know that all were.  There may have been among them those who perceived nature’s god and were following that as best they could.  

STEVE said: Those of us who have lived apart from Christ, in rebellion to God are the same as those across the Jordan, deserving death. By God's grace alone, He redeems us who are unworthy and raises us to life. We become the new Jerusalem, the new Israel - His chosen people.

WYLY: It seems to me the above succinctly assumes and states the “T” (total depravity) , the “U” (unconditional election), the “L” (limited atonement), and the “I” (irresistible grace), of the T.U.L.I.P.  of the Calvinist theological acronym.   Only the “P” (perseverance of the saint) would seem to be not included.

It is the U., the L. and the I. that I consider to be most incompatible with certain sections of the Bible.

Please do not misunderstand.  I am not rejecting Calvinism as nonsense.  Too many intellectual giants, including Calvin up through Karl Barth, have embraced some or all the principles enunciated by Calvin, for any one to make a credible claim in such a regard.  It is a metaphysical way of seeing God and man’s relationship to God.  It is also an attempt, as I understand it, to reconcile the foreknowledge of God with time and history, which in my view cannot be adequately done.  

STEVE said: Now considering the two - what is the difference and why would you trust God for what He did as revealed in the Old Testament and not in our lives today?

WYLY: It is really not an issue of not trusting God in our lives today----else I would not pray.  It is an issue of whether everything is preordained.  If everything is preordained, why do you pray?  Merely to show that you are among the elect or as a real attempt to have God alter the course of events?  If the latter, how do you reconcile your attempt with Calvinism?

Moreover, the Old Testament indicates that God changed his mind on occasion at the behest of man.  This, it seems to me, is more consistent with “free will” and the ability of man to change events than it is with the notion of everything being set in stone from the beginning of time.  It is also consistent with Christ’s statements that we should make requests of God.

Jim Wyly[/color]

I haven't spent much time on the board lately... I've had a lot going on in my own life that has kept me from reading very much, and from making any lengthy posts. Today, however, I do have some time, and would like to respond to the last post where I left off with you, CD.

As far as your analysis and attempted harmonization of James and Paul are concerned, I appreciate your response. I do, however, reject your conclusions:

Paul does not say that we are saved by grace and works, he says that we are saved by grace without works:

- \"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works.\" (Rom. 4:4-6, KJV).

- \"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.\" (Rom. 11:6, KJV).

- \"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.\" (Eph. 2:8-9, KJV).

Works do not precede salvation, they proceed from it:

- \"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.\" (Eph. 2:10, KJV).

James deals in his letter with a hypothetical man who \"says he has faith\", and doesn't have any works...

- \"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works?...\" (Jam. 2:14, KJV).

The fact that this man's professed \"faith\" does not have works proceeding from it, is an indication that such a faith is not true faith:

- \"...is that faith able to save him?\" (Jam. 2:14, Young's Literal).

What faith is \"that faith\"? It is a faith which is merely professed, but not possessed. Evidence of this is the fact that there are no works proceeding from it (cf. Eph. 2:10).

This type of faith does not benefit the professor, nor does it benefit anyone else:

- \"If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?\" (Jam. 2:15-16, KJV).

He concludes his argument, along these lines in verse 24:

- \"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.\" (Jam. 2:24, KJV).

Is a man saved by works? No. But works demonstrate that a man is saved. This is due to the fact that works proceed from salvation (cf. Eph. 2:10). In such a sense, this is \"how\" a man is justified by works.

- \"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)... For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.\" (Eph. 2:5, 8-9, KJV).

We are saved by God's grace, through faith, which will produce good works. The works do not produce the grace, and grace is not contingent upon works... Otherwise, grace (unmerited favor) is no longer grace (cf. Rom. 11:6), and God becomes man's debtor (cf. Rom. 4:4).

You have evidenced incorrectly.[/color]



[!--EDIT|James Rondon|1122667769--]

Please prove that I have not responded to what you wrote, and that I only responded to my own distortion... Instead of just making an allegation without offering any proof. Remember:

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