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Author Topic: Humans Have Free Will/Freedom to Choose  (Read 7427 times)
johntwayne
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« Reply #120 on: July 29, 2005, 05:33:05 PM »
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If I read about the rich young ruler one more time I just might puke.
What we are really talking about Nevertheless is God's grace.  Does He work in all lives, or does he select an elite few and never give the rest an opportunity?  I think standing for God's grace to all men is something worth standing up for and defending against people who say that Jesus doesn't want certain ones to follow him.

I'm sorry that it annoys you but I have had a great deal of experience with helping people out of Calvinism.  The way to do it is to confront them with the consequences of their doctrine and try to move them to put into words their belief that God's grace does not extend to all in regard to providing the possibility of salvation and then confronting them with the clear passages that teach that God loves all, and desires for all to be saved, and works in all lives to that end.

Calvinism is horrible false doctrine that limits the grace of God, and maintains that Christ did not die to make salvation possible for all, but only an elite few.  It makes God a respector of persons (or prejudice if you will).  These are core matters pertaining to the nature of God and His character and they cannot simply be swept under the rug and allowed to go unanswered when they are advocated.
The point is, Jack, Steve is not going to respond to those particular quotes nor the questions that you formed from them.  You've addressed them to him so many times without response that I'd think you'd see that by now.

You can continue talking to no one about Steve's views of the RYR, and how terrible it is and how he won't admit that he's wrong, but can't you see that it's not doing any good?

On a message board no one has to answer any question or respond to any post if they don't want to.  That can happen for any number of reasons.  Not everyone reads every thread.  Some people don't care to discuss certain subjects.  Some won't respond to certain posters.  And sometimes people just don't want to answer.  Repeating the same thing in every thread Steve posts in will not convince him to respond to you.

The horse is dead.  Quit kicking it.

Never[/color]
I'm amused Nevertheless.  So, I should simply allow him to keep posting his Calvinistic false doctrines but not answer them with the clearest evidence of why they are wrong?  Are you going to tell Steve to stop posting his material too?  Truly, the legs of the lame are unequal.
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JohnTWayne
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« Reply #121 on: July 29, 2005, 06:39:30 PM »
CD -

Quote
4. We are saved by God's grace as we exercise our faith and do works. (St. Paul and St. James)

Forgive me for asking without having read all your posts (I'm in the process of buying a house and selling ours - a time constraint).  Anyway....

Would this paraphrase be accurate of the 4th point:  God's grace continues as we exercise faith and do good works?

Thanks for the time.

Steve[/color]
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Ephesians 2:8-10  Who saves, how He saves, why He saves.

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
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« Reply #121 on: July 29, 2005, 06:39:30 PM »
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« Reply #122 on: July 29, 2005, 06:46:07 PM »
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If I read about the rich young ruler one more time I just might puke.
What we are really talking about Nevertheless is God's grace.  Does He work in all lives, or does he select an elite few and never give the rest an opportunity?  I think standing for God's grace to all men is something worth standing up for and defending against people who say that Jesus doesn't want certain ones to follow him.

I'm sorry that it annoys you but I have had a great deal of experience with helping people out of Calvinism.  The way to do it is to confront them with the consequences of their doctrine and try to move them to put into words their belief that God's grace does not extend to all in regard to providing the possibility of salvation and then confronting them with the clear passages that teach that God loves all, and desires for all to be saved, and works in all lives to that end.

Calvinism is horrible false doctrine that limits the grace of God, and maintains that Christ did not die to make salvation possible for all, but only an elite few.  It makes God a respector of persons (or prejudice if you will).  These are core matters pertaining to the nature of God and His character and they cannot simply be swept under the rug and allowed to go unanswered when they are advocated.
The point is, Jack, Steve is not going to respond to those particular quotes nor the questions that you formed from them.  You've addressed them to him so many times without response that I'd think you'd see that by now.

You can continue talking to no one about Steve's views of the RYR, and how terrible it is and how he won't admit that he's wrong, but can't you see that it's not doing any good?

On a message board no one has to answer any question or respond to any post if they don't want to.  That can happen for any number of reasons.  Not everyone reads every thread.  Some people don't care to discuss certain subjects.  Some won't respond to certain posters.  And sometimes people just don't want to answer.  Repeating the same thing in every thread Steve posts in will not convince him to respond to you.

The horse is dead.  Quit kicking it.

Never[/color]
Never,

Just wanted to say thanks for the decency of your post.  I know that it isn't because you agree theologically with some of my views, but I know you've been on this board for some time (as I have) and I am grateful for your respect to the board and our fellow board members.  You've always been gracious to me - even in our disagreements and that means bunches.

Blessings to you.

Steve
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Ephesians 2:8-10  Who saves, how He saves, why He saves.

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
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« Reply #123 on: July 29, 2005, 06:51:04 PM »
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Ephesians 2:8-10  Who saves, how He saves, why He saves.

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
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« Reply #124 on: July 29, 2005, 08:26:01 PM »
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Would this paraphrase be accurate of the 4th point:  God's grace continues as we exercise faith and do good works?
Yes, but not quite.

God's grace precedes and is simultaneous with the exercise of our faith and the performance of good works.
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« Reply #125 on: July 29, 2005, 08:32:10 PM »
CD -

Are there, in essence then, two purposed graces?  One that precedes and then one responsive to faith and works?

And if so, what does the precedent grace accomplish as opposed to the subsequent grace?

Thanks again.  

Steve
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Ephesians 2:8-10  Who saves, how He saves, why He saves.

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
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« Reply #125 on: July 29, 2005, 08:32:10 PM »
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« Reply #126 on: July 29, 2005, 10:47:35 PM »
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I'm amused Nevertheless.  So, I should simply allow him to keep posting his Calvinistic false doctrines but not answer them with the clearest evidence of why they are wrong?  Are you going to tell Steve to stop posting his material too?  Truly, the legs of the lame are unequal.

Yes, if Steve copies portions of your posts and puts them together with some comments of his own into a canned response which he then posts repeatedly, word-for-word on every thread that you participate in, I would say much the same thing to him.

Jack, I don't agree with you on every point, but I like to read what you have to say because you have some good insights and express things in a different way than I'm used to sometimes, which provokes me to thought.  I like to read your posts, but as soon as I see the RYR copy start up my eyes glaze over, I scroll to the next post, and anything you might have said is lost in my irritation.

I know that you are all pumped up as the knight in shining armor out to slay the evil Cavinist dragon, but sometimes you come across more like Don Quixote.  Tell me, do you preach the same sermon, word-for-word, over and over again?

Never[/color]
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« Reply #127 on: July 30, 2005, 12:34:36 AM »
I did not distort what you said, CD. I responded to it. This may have included leaping forward on my part, and not thoroughly connected all of the dots along the way, but I did not distort. Your use of that word almost implies ill intent on my part. That may not be your intention, but I thought it appropriate to point that out.

As far as that part of your post is concerned that I had left out in my earlier response, it was not done intentionally. In fact, I thought that it was in my post until you notified me to the contrary. I put that post together rather hurriedly at work, right before leaving for an appointment. Had I had more time to check it over prior to posting, I may have caught it. My statements, however, would have been the same even if it had been included.

By the way, I have read your posts... I have read them more than once. Maybe there is a communication problem between the two of us? That is often the case in discussions such as these, no matter how much one might feel that they have explained their self.

Getting back to the matter at hand, I got the impression from a statement you had made that you don't disagree with the contents, themselves, of my response regarding James and Paul. Is that true? You said:

Quote
You yourself admit that faith and works go together.  I've not said anything differently.
So, do you agree with my points, or do you disagree? Please explain.[/color]



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CDHealy
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« Reply #128 on: July 30, 2005, 07:22:11 AM »
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Are there, in essence then, two purposed graces?  One that precedes and then one responsive to faith and works?

And if so, what does the precedent grace accomplish as opposed to the subsequent grace?
No, there is only one grace, or rather all grace is the uncreated activities of God's essence or nature.  That not all humans participate in and experience this energetic expression of God's very essence is because they choose not to.  There is nothing at all lacking in God's grace, nor in the human failure to accept that grace, but simply that human choice directed the will toward an end away from God's grace.

Note, however, as I've said either above or on another thread: the human failure to accept grace is not essentially different from the acceptance of grace because both are equally and freely willed choices.  The only difference is that one choice directs the human will toward one end (say the rejection of grace) and the other choice directs the human will toward the other end (acceptance).[/color]
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« Reply #129 on: July 30, 2005, 07:31:22 AM »
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I did not distort what you said, CD. I responded to it. This may have included leaping forward on my part, and not thoroughly connected all of the dots along the way, but I did not distort. Your use of that word almost implies ill intent on my part. That may not be your intention, but I thought it appropriate to point that out.

I think I've demonstrated that what I have said and what you claim I have said (or what you claim I meant) are two different things.  The simply fact is that you are arguing with what you imagine I have said.  I think distortion is an appropriate description, and given where we are in the discussion, how carefuly I have tried to be to not only state what I mean, but respond to and clarify that in light of criticisms and response, but most importantly the fact that I have explicitly denied what you claim I mean, it seems to me that it is either a deliberate distortion or an willful avoidance of my actual argument.

You claim it is neither of these.  I accept that.  So, since as you say it is a miscommunication, why don't you ask me to clarify those things that I've demonstrated you've misunderstood?  Shall I go back over human nature and willing?  Do we need to grasp an understanding of what God's grace is?

Quote
Getting back to the matter at hand, I got the impression from a statement you had made that you don't disagree with the contents, themselves, of my response regarding James and Paul. Is that true? You said:

Quote
You yourself admit that faith and works go together.  I've not said anything differently.
So, do you agree with my points, or do you disagree? Please explain.

My agreement was with what I took you to understand from James, namely that faith and works are inseparable, neither can be without the other.[/color]
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Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
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« Reply #129 on: July 30, 2005, 07:31:22 AM »
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johntwayne
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« Reply #130 on: July 30, 2005, 01:43:47 PM »
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I'm amused Nevertheless.  So, I should simply allow him to keep posting his Calvinistic false doctrines but not answer them with the clearest evidence of why they are wrong?  Are you going to tell Steve to stop posting his material too?  Truly, the legs of the lame are unequal.

Yes, if Steve copies portions of your posts and puts them together with some comments of his own into a canned response which he then posts repeatedly, word-for-word on every thread that you participate in, I would say much the same thing to him.

Jack, I don't agree with you on every point, but I like to read what you have to say because you have some good insights and express things in a different way than I'm used to sometimes, which provokes me to thought.  I like to read your posts, but as soon as I see the RYR copy start up my eyes glaze over, I scroll to the next post, and anything you might have said is lost in my irritation.

I know that you are all pumped up as the knight in shining armor out to slay the evil Cavinist dragon, but sometimes you come across more like Don Quixote.  Tell me, do you preach the same sermon, word-for-word, over and over again?

Never[/color]
Nevertheless, I'm going to assume you are not a soldier.  People who are civilians often look at what soldiers do and critisize it.  The fact is, they don't really understand a soldier's work on the battlefield (having never done it) and thus are horror struck at some of the things they must do there to prevail.  

I have been on the spiritual battlefield against Calvinism and other false doctrines for years.  I believe God's grace has equipped me to meet these forces.  I don't expect someone who is gifted in other areas, such as yourself, to understand why I have to do the things I have to do to oppose these doctrines.  Perhaps it is futile for me to try and help you to understand why Steve must be confronted with the extreme consequences of his doctrine over and over again.  All I can say is that I do it out of love, and out of experience that this is the only way that deep seated Calvinism can be defeated in a  person's life.  They must be forced to see the consequences, to put the consequense into terms, and then be faced with those consequences over and over again until it breaks down Satan's hold on them.

Do you think I enjoy doing it?  Do you think I do it because I dislike Steve or something?  No, I do it because I know deep down Steve can see the injustice of the consequencews of his view.  This is obvious from the fact he will not deal with them.  He must be confronted with this as long as he presents himself for confrontation (by his continued advocacy of Calvinism) if there is any hope the hold of this false doctrine can be broken in his life.

A doctrine that teaches that salvation is only available to a few, and that most people are born, live and die with no hope of salvation because God didn't provide an opportunity for them strikes at the heart of the nature of the God described in the Bible, the heart of the nature of the work that Christ did on the cross, and at the heart of what real love is all about. Such a view cannot be allowed to go unanswered or unchallenged, as unpleasant as the work of doing that might be.
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JohnTWayne
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« Reply #131 on: August 01, 2005, 12:49:34 PM »
That's an interesting response Jack.  I find it ironic that on a thread about freedom to choose you say you must force Steve to see the consequences of his belief.
 :shrug:

I don't believe such a thing can be forced.  You can argue.  You can persuade.  You can reason.  But no matter how logical, persuasive and correct you are, some will always disagree!  Some will eventually say they agree with you just to shut you up, but never change their beliefs.  Others will simply harden themselves to anything you say, doubting the validity of your every statement, no matter how obvious.

I understand your statement about fighting false doctrine.  Do you understand my question about you preaching the same sermon, word-for-word, over and over?

Never
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Jesus didn't die so we can live busy lives. He died to capture our hearts.

Truth is eternal. Knowledge is changeable.
It is disastrous to confuse them.
Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves,
for they shall never cease to be amused.
johntwayne
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« Reply #132 on: August 02, 2005, 09:25:05 AM »
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That's an interesting response Jack.  I find it ironic that on a thread about freedom to choose you say you must force Steve to see the consequences of his belief.
 :shrug:

I don't believe such a thing can be forced.  You can argue.  You can persuade.  You can reason.  But no matter how logical, persuasive and correct you are, some will always disagree!  Some will eventually say they agree with you just to shut you up, but never change their beliefs.  Others will simply harden themselves to anything you say, doubting the validity of your every statement, no matter how obvious.

I understand your statement about fighting false doctrine.  Do you understand my question about you preaching the same sermon, word-for-word, over and over?

Never
It was not my intention to say I could force Steve to change his views.  I affirmed that I can and should forcefully confront him with the consequences of his view and their obvious contradiction with the Bible.  I think you missed my point.
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"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" (John 7:38 NASB)
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« Reply #132 on: August 02, 2005, 09:25:05 AM »
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« Reply #133 on: September 01, 2008, 04:22:35 PM »
This seemed to be a pretty good discussion.  In light of recent discussions, I decided to bump it.
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He was despised and forsaken of men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; like one from whom men hide their face; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.  Surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried; yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.  But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed.
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« Reply #134 on: September 01, 2008, 05:52:33 PM »
Quote from: spurly on September 01, 2008, 04:22:35 PM
This seemed to be a pretty good discussion.  In light of recent discussions, I decided to bump it.

Sure, beat that hornet's nest.
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