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Author Topic: Humans Have Free Will/Freedom to Choose  (Read 8953 times)
CDHealy
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« Reply #75 on: July 27, 2005, 08:33:05 AM »
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kanham:

I've already said my piece on the nature of argument.  So, unless each of has a special sort of reason that no one else share, open rational debate does not privilege any view over the other, and obligates all views to the same rules.

On reading the rest of what you wrote, it seems to me, and this may surprise you, that you actually agree with the doctrine of synergism, for everything you describe, the synergist can affirm.  The only quibble appears to be you have a concern about any focus on human effort in salvation.  Synergists are not insensitive to that concern, and in fact historic spiritual disciplines--which are fundamentally synergist--talk in much the same way as you do.  That I have spoken about human effort in my argument about synergism is only so as to make cogent my discussion of free will.  You appear to me to wholly embrace free will.  This is synergism.
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Benedict Seraphim
Blog: This Is Life!

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
--Hamlet, Act I Scene 5
CDHealy
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« Reply #76 on: July 27, 2005, 08:38:39 AM »
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Well, CD, it's not what I hear you saying - or others for that matter.  You can deny merit, or credit or whatever.  But it seems to me, when everything is netted out, that your view brings you alongside and shoulder to shoulder with God.  So it seems to me.
Shoulder to shoulder with God?  Well, okay.  But not in any sense that makes us equal to God.  It's shoulder to shoulder only in the sense that God and man freely cooperate in man's salvation.  If that brings us alongside God, so much the better since we will partake of his nature--by his gracious mercy without any merit on our part.

I know you claim my argument seems to you to be talking about merit and co-equality with God.  But could I simply ask you to demonstrate where in fact I've ever made any claims like this?  You've criticized me for this, and I've responded several times in the most explicit ways possible.  While it still may be the case that I could be clearer, I think it's fair by now to ask you to check your presuppositions when you come to my arguments.  It should be clear by now that my argument cannot be tarred with the sort of charges you've made.[/color]
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Benedict Seraphim
Blog: This Is Life!

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
--Hamlet, Act I Scene 5
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« Reply #76 on: July 27, 2005, 08:38:39 AM »
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« Reply #77 on: July 27, 2005, 08:41:26 AM »
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Christ gets all of the credit for a limited success  

And who gets the credit for the complete success of one who is saved?  I get it, the one who is able to make the right choice all by himself?   Yeah me?  :clap:
I'll try to keep it as concise as possible in the hope that you'll understand.
[span style=\'color:red\']\"We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.\"[/span]
Jesus Himself postulates servants of God doing works that are required, but not meritorious.
Why can't you understand that?
 :confused:[/color]
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« Reply #78 on: July 27, 2005, 08:45:17 AM »
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 It should be clear by now that my argument cannot be tarred with the sort of charges you've made.
Well, CD, I'll certainly leave you to your arguments.  But it is not clear to me that your argument doesn't imply what I've suggested.  At least that's the inference I'm left with, notwithstanding your denial.

We'll agree to disagree.
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Ephesians 2:8-10  Who saves, how He saves, why He saves.

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
CDHealy
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« Reply #79 on: July 27, 2005, 08:49:11 AM »
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But it is not clear to me that your argument doesn't imply what I've suggested.  At least that's the inference I'm left with, notwithstanding your denial.
Then do me the honor, show me the respect, of demonstrating how my arguments necessarily result in what you charge them with.  Simply making the allegation isn't enough.
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Benedict Seraphim
Blog: This Is Life!

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
--Hamlet, Act I Scene 5
kanham
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« Reply #80 on: July 27, 2005, 09:12:03 AM »
CD,

It doesn’t surprise me at all. My point on this thread was not to disagree with your position but to disagree with a point you made. You may have made an assumption about me that was unmerited.

I have no horse in this race.

I embrace free will up to the point that we must die to it if we hope to be who God has made us to be. We have a choice but the choice must be I don’t want choice. I must surrender my free-will if I want any hope of transformation.

I hope that helps explain why I do have issue with some of what you have said and why I have brought up discussion on one point and not the concept of free-will in general.

To fight to say we have free-will just so we can say we must surrender it to me makes the discussion in some ways sound like an exercise of human flesh but maybe you disagree that we must surrender our choice.
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« Reply #80 on: July 27, 2005, 09:12:03 AM »
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« Reply #81 on: July 27, 2005, 09:13:59 AM »
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But it is not clear to me that your argument doesn't imply what I've suggested.  At least that's the inference I'm left with, notwithstanding your denial.
Then do me the honor, show me the respect, of demonstrating how my arguments necessarily result in what you charge them with.  Simply making the allegation isn't enough.[/color]
I certainly hope I haven't disrespected you, CD.  Truly.  And if I have, please forgive me.  It isn't my intention.  Nor is it my intention to continue in the discussion.  I do appreciate the invitation, however.  Let's just mark this up to me not having the energy right now.  Ok?
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Ephesians 2:8-10  Who saves, how He saves, why He saves.

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
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« Reply #82 on: July 27, 2005, 09:18:03 AM »
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Quote
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Christ gets all of the credit for a limited success  

And who gets the credit for the complete success of one who is saved?  I get it, the one who is able to make the right choice all by himself?   Yeah me?  :clap:
I'll try to keep it as concise as possible in the hope that you'll understand.
[span style=\'color:red\']\"We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.\"[/span]
Jesus Himself postulates servants of God doing works that are required, but not meritorious.
Why can't you understand that?
 :confused:[/color]
Skip -

I agree with that premise.  Afterall, we are His workmanship created - born from above - by His grace to do those things He planned for us to do from the beginning.  Um, so, I don't disagree.

But, note, you mention servants of God.  Those who are not yet in Christ are not His servants.  And this discussion goes to salvation, I thought - not what we have been called to do.

I see a distinction.  That is all.  While you don't agree with me, do you understand where I'm coming from?
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Ephesians 2:8-10  Who saves, how He saves, why He saves.

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
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« Reply #83 on: July 27, 2005, 09:19:44 AM »
kanham -

Interesting points.

Steve
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Ephesians 2:8-10  Who saves, how He saves, why He saves.

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
CDHealy
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« Reply #84 on: July 27, 2005, 09:31:00 AM »
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I embrace free will up to the point that we must die to it if we hope to be who God has made us to be. We have a choice but the choice must be I don’t want choice. I must surrender my free-will if I want any hope of transformation.

I hope that helps explain why I do have issue with some of what you have said and why I have brought up discussion on one point and not the concept of free-will in general.

To fight to say we have free-will just so we can say we must surrender it to me makes the discussion in some ways sound like an exercise of human flesh but maybe you disagree that we must surrender our choice.
Kanham:

Hmm.  On reading your further clarification, I must revise my former remarks.  I find in Scriptures that we must die to self.  I find no instance that supports we must die to free will, nor that dying to self means dying to free will.

But saying that, it may be that you mean dying to the will that opposes God.  But this is not the free will I'm arguing about/for.  The sort of will that opposes God is the will of the flesh--which differs from human free will/free choice.  Yes, the flesh and its will/energies must be mortified, put to death.  But it takes a voluntary choice for humans to cooperate with God for that to happen.

Or to say it another way, we must freely align our will with God's will, so that what we will is His will.  But this does not annihilate the will we align with God.  Rather, it means both wills are pointed toward the same end.  And this is precisely what the Incarnation of God teaches us.

Perhaps you and I can agree on the above paragraph?[/color]
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Benedict Seraphim
Blog: This Is Life!

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
--Hamlet, Act I Scene 5
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« Reply #84 on: July 27, 2005, 09:31:00 AM »
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CDHealy
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« Reply #85 on: July 27, 2005, 09:33:39 AM »
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I certainly hope I haven't disrespected you, CD.  Truly.  And if I have, please forgive me.  It isn't my intention.  Nor is it my intention to continue in the discussion.  I do appreciate the invitation, however.  Let's just mark this up to me not having the energy right now.  Ok?
Understood.  We're copacetic.
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Benedict Seraphim
Blog: This Is Life!

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
--Hamlet, Act I Scene 5
Skip
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« Reply #86 on: July 27, 2005, 09:35:06 AM »
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Quote
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Quote
Christ gets all of the credit for a limited success  

And who gets the credit for the complete success of one who is saved?  I get it, the one who is able to make the right choice all by himself?   Yeah me?  :clap:
I'll try to keep it as concise as possible in the hope that you'll understand.
[span style=\'color:red\']\"We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.\"[/span]
Jesus Himself postulates servants of God doing works that are required, but not meritorious.
Why can't you understand that?
 :confused:
Skip -

I agree with that premise.  Afterall, we are His workmanship created - born from above - by His grace to do those things He planned for us to do from the beginning.  Um, so, I don't disagree.

But, note, you mention servants of God.  Those who are not yet in Christ are not His servants.  And this discussion goes to salvation, I thought - not what we have been called to do.

I see a distinction.  That is all.  While you don't agree with me, do you understand where I'm coming from?
So let me see if I understand you correctly.
Before salvation, all works are meritorious.
But after salvation, works can be either meritorious or not meritorious?

If so, that's a new one on me. In my theology, people are transformed, not works.[/color]
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« Reply #87 on: July 27, 2005, 10:14:03 AM »
No, Skip.  I must have miscommunicated something terrible.

Before Salvation the work that is going on is by His Spirit.  

Nonetheless, I think you know me well enough by now that I wouldn't suggest works are meritorious at any time.
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Ephesians 2:8-10  Who saves, how He saves, why He saves.

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
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« Reply #87 on: July 27, 2005, 10:14:03 AM »
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« Reply #88 on: July 27, 2005, 10:14:52 AM »
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I certainly hope I haven't disrespected you, CD.  Truly.  And if I have, please forgive me.  It isn't my intention.  Nor is it my intention to continue in the discussion.  I do appreciate the invitation, however.  Let's just mark this up to me not having the energy right now.  Ok?
Understood.  We're copacetic.[/color]
Cool.
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Ephesians 2:8-10  Who saves, how He saves, why He saves.

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
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« Reply #89 on: July 27, 2005, 10:27:39 AM »
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Quote
But it is not clear to me that your argument doesn't imply what I've suggested.  At least that's the inference I'm left with, notwithstanding your denial.
Then do me the honor, show me the respect, of demonstrating how my arguments necessarily result in what you charge them with.  Simply making the allegation isn't enough.[/color]
On the contrary,  to some minds,  simply making the allegation is enough,  especially if it's repeated over and over and over and over . . . .
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