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Author Topic: Humans Have Free Will/Freedom to Choose  (Read 8977 times)
CDHealy
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« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2005, 08:45:36 AM »
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After all, if Jesus himself defines faith and belief as a work, and if no work at all can be the basis for our salvation, then we cannot be saved even by faith.

That is true.  We are solely saved by God's grace through His gift of faith.[/color]
I'm sorry, but if I understand your somewhat cryptic reply, it both misapplies the point I was making and is not warranted by Scripture.

Perhaps you can clarify a bit more by what you mean?
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Benedict Seraphim
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There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
--Hamlet, Act I Scene 5
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« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2005, 10:15:25 AM »
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After all, if Jesus himself defines faith and belief as a work, and if no work at all can be the basis for our salvation, then we cannot be saved even by faith.

That is true.  We are solely saved by God's grace through His gift of faith.
I'm sorry, but if I understand your somewhat cryptic reply, it both misapplies the point I was making and is not warranted by Scripture.

Perhaps you can clarify a bit more by what you mean?
Please read the Scripture below.[/color]
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Ephesians 2:8-10  Who saves, how He saves, why He saves.

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
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« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2005, 10:15:25 AM »
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CDHealy
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« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2005, 10:23:53 AM »
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After all, if Jesus himself defines faith and belief as a work, and if no work at all can be the basis for our salvation, then we cannot be saved even by faith.

That is true.  We are solely saved by God's grace through His gift of faith.
I'm sorry, but if I understand your somewhat cryptic reply, it both misapplies the point I was making and is not warranted by Scripture.

Perhaps you can clarify a bit more by what you mean?
Please read the Scripture below.[/color]
James 2:24:

\"You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.\"
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Benedict Seraphim
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There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
--Hamlet, Act I Scene 5
CDHealy
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« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2005, 10:25:18 AM »
In this post, I will outline my argument in a brief summary.  As will be seen from my argument, it revolves around three key terms that I did not include in my list of definitions.  This is because each of these terms themselves play a fundamental role in my argument and those definitions themselves must be argued as part of the overall argument.  This will be clear as I proceed.  And as I proceed, I will add more to the points summarized here.  The purpose of this post is to give an idea of the argument I'm presenting, and to allow comments on it.  More detailed support and explanation will be given as the discussion ensues as I respond to criticisms.

Argument Summary:
The Holy Trinity, angels (fallen and unfallen), and all humans have their appropriate nature (divine, angelic and human), the willing which operates from that nature, and personhood, which is the individual instance of the person's (divine, angelic, and human) nature and willing.  For all beings that have a nature, that nature is fundamentally the same for all those beings who share that nature (i. e., God's nature is absolutely the same among all the Persons of the Trinity; all angelic beings, fallen and unfallen, have the same angelic nature, and all human beings from Adam to Christ share the same human nature).  The same is true for willing.  All the Persons of the Godhead share the same willing, as do all angels share angelic willing and all humans share human willing.  Thus, all natures and willings are identical for the beings that partake of those natures and willings.

When we come to personhood, however, we come to the differences between persons.  Each person exercises, or puts to use, the nature and the willing that they have respectively.  God the Father wills in the way that is unique to His Person, God the Son wills in the way unique to His Person, and God the Holy Spirit wills in the way unique to His Person; and all three Persons will with the same willing.  The divine willing is absolutely one, and each divine Person's will is unique to that Person.  So Christ could say that His will was to do the will of the Father.  Theirs was one willing, but two different Persons willing in ways unique to their Person.  This is true of angelic beings as well.  The difference between fallen and unfallen angels is not the angelic nature they necessarily share (else they wouldn't be angels, but two different classes of created beings), but the personal manner in which they exercise the willing that is joined to angelic nature.  Some angels will to follow Satan, some will to follow God.  Similarly, this is true of human beings as well.

Here, however, we must begin to make important distinctions.  For the purposes of our discussion, angelic nature, willing and personhood will be pretty much ignored as not essential to the discussion (though it may creep in from time to time in an illustrative manner).  Also, one of the fundamental and essential distinctions we must make is that between the uncreated nature of the Holy Trinity and the created natures of humans and angels.  That difference notwithstanding  however, precisely because God is the creator of all angels and humans, and especially since humans are made in God's image, it follows that if God has a nature, willing and personhood, then angels and humans do, as well.

A further distinction needs to be made between created human nature and fallen human nature, and the relation of willing to the nature.  Adam was created corruptible (able to be corrupted) but sinless.  His created human nature was untainted by any evil or sin.  A holy God cannot create anything sinful.  Indeed, his willing was united to his created nature so as to be oriented toward what his nature desired.  That is to say, there were no evil inclinations in Adam's nature that would orient his nature to sin, for God would not have created Adam with any evil inclinations.  So when Adam sinned, he did so apart from anything in his nature or willing that would influence him to sin.  How did he sin?  He did so by, as a person, so choosing to make use of his will such that he disobeyed God.  In so doing, the human nature that could have remained incorrupt was corrupted.  And because all human persons share the same human nature, and since Adam (and Eve who shared the same nature as Adam) corrupted that nature through his sin, all humans since Adam have a corrupted nature.  Our nature is now such as to experience death, or separation from God (physical and spiritual).

But notice something important: Adam's nature did not become sinful, because it was not Adam's nature that sinned, but Adam the person.  In other words, human nature, though subject to death, is not sinful.  For if human nature were inherently sinful, then Christ could not have taken on human nature without fundamentally altering it (in which case it wouldn't be human nature anymore), or ceasing to be entirely holy.  Human nature has been corrupted, which is to say, it has been defaced or damaged from its original state.  This is fundamental: natures do not sin, persons do.

This is the time to address the inexcusable mistranslation that the NIV has foisted on English speaking Christians.  There are, on my count, thirteen verses in which the NIV (mis)translates the Greek word “flesh” as “sinful nature,” or some variant thereof: Romans 7:5, 18; 8:3; 13:14; 1 Corinthians 5:5; Galatians 5:13; 6:8; Ephesians 2:3; Colossians 2:11, 13; 2 Peter 2:10; Romans 8:6 (“the mind of sinful man”; lit. “mind of the flesh”); and Romans 8:7 (“sinful mind”; lit. “the mind that is set on the flesh”).  This is a question-begging translation that assumes what it seeks to prove; i. e., that these verses are talking about a human nature that is inherently sinful.

It is not, however, human nature that is sinful, but the energy in a person (the flesh) which inclines us to sin.  (Cf. Romans 7:5.)  This principle of the flesh entered humanity with the death that resulted from Adam's sin.  And it is through sin that the principle of death works in each person.  Take a look at Romans 7:13-23.  St. Paul notes that in his inner being he actually delights in the law.  But the sin in him (the principle of the flesh) carries out evil.  Note especially verse eighteen in this regard.  St. Paul does not say that no good lies in his person, but that no good resides in his flesh.  For he finds the will (to do good), but the doing of the good he does not find.  (Note: The ESV is just wrong here on its translation of this verse and also betrays a pernicious circularity.)  But this is as one would expect: If a nature is not sinful, but still retains God's image, it would still naturally incline to God, the nature's willing would incline to do good.  In other words, humans still retain the inclination of the human nature to do good and desire God, but through their own personal sins, they have allowed the sinful principle of the flesh to work in them such that they find themselves doing the evil their natures are not willing to do.

This simply illustrates that human acts are not bound to human nature; i.e., we can act against our natural inclinations.  In other words, the locus of human freedom is in the personhood that humans have.  We have natures which will, but unlike animals that do not have personhood, we are free to act against our own natural inclinations.  Persons act, not natures.  And if Scripture points out that we can, in fact, act against the inclinations of our nature, fallen or unfallen, then we have the freedom to choose to act in whatever ways we so choose.  If I choose to pray, fast, or give alms, I do so freely, and insofar as nothing impedes my action, I will be able to accomplish that which I choose.  (However, since doing good is not the basis for God's saving us, our doing good works will not save us.)

This is the fundamental synergist account of how humans can freely choose to act in whatever ways the so choose.  Humans are not determined, either by God or by their natures, to act in certain ways.  This is how God has created us, and it is his will that we have this kind of freedom.
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Benedict Seraphim
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There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
--Hamlet, Act I Scene 5
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« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2005, 10:36:46 AM »
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After all, if Jesus himself defines faith and belief as a work, and if no work at all can be the basis for our salvation, then we cannot be saved even by faith.

That is true.  We are solely saved by God's grace through His gift of faith.
I'm sorry, but if I understand your somewhat cryptic reply, it both misapplies the point I was making and is not warranted by Scripture.

Perhaps you can clarify a bit more by what you mean?
Please read the Scripture below.
James 2:24:

\"You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.\"[/color]
And works are the evidence of that faith.  Read verse 10 below.  By the way, who prepared the work to do?
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Ephesians 2:8-10  Who saves, how He saves, why He saves.

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
CDHealy
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« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2005, 10:44:39 AM »
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By the way, who prepared the work to do?
Why God of course.  But this is not relevant to my point.

Ah, but who is doing the work?!  And are they doing it because God makes them do it, or because they are choosing to do it?
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Benedict Seraphim
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« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2005, 10:44:39 AM »
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« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2005, 11:44:23 AM »
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By the way, who prepared the work to do?
Why God of course.  But this is not relevant to my point.

Ah, but who is doing the work?!  And are they doing it because God makes them do it, or because they are choosing to do it?
CD -

It's not about the \"doing\".  It's about the heart toward the \"doing\".

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Ah, but who is doing the work?!

God, through us.  You see, the doing is not about us.  It's about His purpose and the advancement of His Kingdom.  

I think John the baptizer had it well in perspective when he said:

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John 3:29The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom's voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete. 30He must become greater; I must become less.

I fear when the focus shifts from the Lord Jesus onto us and our doing, then we become greater and He less.[/color]
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Ephesians 2:8-10  Who saves, how He saves, why He saves.

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
CDHealy
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« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2005, 11:46:31 AM »
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CD -

It's not about the \"doing\".  It's about the heart toward the \"doing\".
Which I address in my argument summary posted above.
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Benedict Seraphim
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« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2005, 12:18:26 PM »
Clifton,
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But notice something important: Adam's nature did not become sinful, because it was not Adam's nature that sinned, but Adam the person.  In other words, human nature, though subject to death, is not sinful.
What is the problem in Eph 2:3 where Paul says \"we were by nature children of wrath\"?  Is that a mistranslation in your opinion?

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Not so fast, Dan.  The interpretation you give is false.  Here's why.  If you read verse 28 with 29 this is what you get:

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Then they said to Him, \"What should we do, that we may work the works of God?\" Jesus answered and said to them, \"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.\"

So you want me to believe that, in these verses, Jesus told the people to work for their salvation?   You have just defined \"work of God\" as something humans do to appease God, not as something God does for us, correct?
Why is it incorrect to see this verse as a place where Jesus is teaching the crowd that believing is a work of God, not of man?
Does your view differ in any way from the Roman view?  They sound very similar to me.[/color]
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Suppose there were a physician who had such skill that people would not die, or even though they died would afterward live forever. Just think how the world would snow and rain money upon him! Because of the pressing crowd of rich men no one else could get near him. Now, here in Baptism there is brought free to every man's door just such a priceless medicine which swallows up death and saves the lives of all men.
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« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2005, 01:38:40 PM »
Dan:

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What is the problem in Eph 2:3 where Paul says \"we were by nature children of wrath\"?  Is that a mistranslation in your opinion?

In part we need to look at what use St. Paul and the NT make of the word nature (phusis).  But the context of the passage is our best help.

Note that in Acts 14:15, St. Paul says to the Lystrans that \"We men are of the same nature as you.\"  But if your interpretation of nature applies to this verse, that can't be, because St. Paul is not an object of wrath (he has a new \"nature\" here).  This verse is also a vindication of my understanding of nature.

Romans 1:26 speaks of those who give up natural uses for what is contrary to nature.  One can act in opposition to one's nature.

Romans 2:14 speak of Gentiles who do not have the law, and yet by nature do the things of the law.  Apparently they have a nature which is disposed to act in accordance with God's law.  But they could not do the things of the law by nature if their nature were inherently sinful.

Galatians 2:15 contrasts those who are Jews by nature with those who are sinners of the Gentiles, implying it is not natural to Jews to be sinful.

So, what does St. Paul mean here?  Well it cannot mean we are inherently sinful because of our human nature, nor that we were born as sinners.  If we look at the context we read:

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And you He made alive, being dead in transgressions and sins, in which you once walked according to the age of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit which is now working in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the senses, and were by nature children of wrath, as also the rest. (Ephesians 2:1-3)

In other words, what made us \"naturally\" children of wrath was the sinful acts we committed, giving ourselves up to the lusts of the flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and the mind (a better translation that senses).

Thus, Ephesians 2:3 does not defeat my argument and is consistent with it.

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So you want me to believe that, in these verses, Jesus told the people to work for their salvation?   You have just defined \"work of God\" as something humans do to appease God, not as something God does for us, correct?
Why is it incorrect to see this verse as a place where Jesus is teaching the crowd that believing is a work of God, not of man?
Does your view differ in any way from the Roman view?  They sound very similar to me.

No, that is not what I want you to believe.  Please re-read my previous comments.

My view differs from Rome's in that I do not subscribe to the understanding of original sin as inherited guilt.[/color]
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Benedict Seraphim
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Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
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« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2005, 01:38:40 PM »
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« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2005, 01:42:37 PM »
Well put.
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« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2005, 01:57:36 PM »
Extranos:

If I may be so bold, I think what Clifton and James were getting at is that the \"work of God\" spoken of in John 6:29 is not a work that God performs, as monergists would have us believe, but a godly work we perform -- namely, a work of belief (or faith):

28) Then they said to Him, \"What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?\"
29) Jesus answered and said to them, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.'\"

The work of belief is \"of God\" in the sense that it is godly, not in the sense that God Himself is performing the work.  At least this seems to be the logical interpretation of verse 29 when it is read in the light of verse 28.  Now, this does not conclusively disprove monergism, but monergists cannot appeal to this scripture to support their theology.

It is tempting to construe this as a work we perform to appease God, but I don't think that Clifton was saying that works appease God.  Rather, he is placing the relation between faith and works in the larger context of synergy.
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« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2005, 01:58:20 PM »
Clifton beat me to the punch.  :blues:
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« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2005, 01:58:20 PM »
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« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2005, 03:17:06 PM »
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Apparently they have a nature which is disposed to act in accordance with God's law.  But they could not do the things of the law by nature if their nature were inherently sinful.
Why not?  I've never claimed that a sinful nature automatically makes it impossible to do good works.  You've set up a straw man here, it seems to me.

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In other words, what made us \"naturally\" children of wrath was the sinful acts we committed, giving ourselves up to the lusts of the flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and the mind (a better translation that senses).
It's a nice dance to watch, but I ain't buying it.  How is David sinful from the time of his conception in Psalm 51:5 if you are now saying that he didn't (and we don't) become a child of wrath until he  gave himself up to the lusts of the flesh?

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If I may be so bold, I think what Clifton and James were getting at is that the \"work of God\" spoken of in John 6:29 is not a work that God performs, as monergists would have us believe, but a godly work we perform -- namely, a work of belief (or faith):
Yes, Clever, I think that is exactly what they are getting at.  I also think Saint Paul disputes that viewpoint.[/color]
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Suppose there were a physician who had such skill that people would not die, or even though they died would afterward live forever. Just think how the world would snow and rain money upon him! Because of the pressing crowd of rich men no one else could get near him. Now, here in Baptism there is brought free to every man's door just such a priceless medicine which swallows up death and saves the lives of all men.
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« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2005, 03:35:20 PM »
So Extranos, you concede that, if properly interpretated, John 6:29 does not lend support to your argument that faith is a work God performs in the believer?
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