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Author Topic: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?  (Read 31022 times)

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Offline spurly

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Many people in Christendom cling to either the sovereignty of God or the free will of man and they throw the other doctrine out with the trash.  Here is my question: can these two doctrines coexist in contemporary theology like they seemed to have coexisted in scripture?  Why are we so quick to throw one or the other out instead of living in the tension that these two doctrines present?

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Offline Bon Voyage

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #1 on: Sun Mar 02, 2008 - 15:35:40 »
Many people in Christendom cling to either the sovereignty of God or the free will of man and they throw the other doctrine out with the trash.  Here is my question: can these two doctrines coexist in contemporary theology like they seemed to have coexisted in scripture?  Why are we so quick to throw one or the other out instead of living in the tension that these two doctrines present?

I believe that there are some things we cannot possibly understand because we do not have the mind of God.  It would be easier to realize we cannot understand it and affirm both doctrines.

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #1 on: Sun Mar 02, 2008 - 15:35:40 »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #2 on: Sun Mar 02, 2008 - 15:39:29 »
Sovereignty means that God can do whatever He wants. 
Which includes sitting back and letting things run their natural course.

Yes, I believe God very often lets us do our thing....laissez-faire.
Yes, I believe that God can and does sovereignly step in and violate our free will sometimes.

What was the conflict between the two???  I suppose some people hold free will in such a way that it is inviolable, but that just doesn't hold up, IMO.

Offline yogi bear

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #3 on: Sun Mar 02, 2008 - 15:44:43 »
Many people in Christendom cling to either the sovereignty of God or the free will of man and they throw the other doctrine out with the trash.  Here is my question: can these two doctrines coexist in contemporary theology like they seemed to have coexisted in scripture?  Why are we so quick to throw one or the other out instead of living in the tension that these two doctrines present?


To me they do but I can not explain how and haven't seen anyone else explain it one way or the other clearly without holes in their theory. I am more inclined to say as Gary we just don't know the mind of God and can not explain just how he works.
« Last Edit: Sun Mar 02, 2008 - 16:26:50 by bvaug »

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #3 on: Sun Mar 02, 2008 - 15:44:43 »

Offline Jimmy

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #4 on: Sun Mar 02, 2008 - 16:11:30 »
There is no conflict between the sovereignty of God and God's giving man free will.  The conflict is only in what some say that God cannot do, such as , giving man free will.

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #4 on: Sun Mar 02, 2008 - 16:11:30 »



Offline Gillian

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #5 on: Sun Mar 02, 2008 - 17:08:30 »
Many people in Christendom cling to either the sovereignty of God or the free will of man and they throw the other doctrine out with the trash.  Here is my question: can these two doctrines coexist in contemporary theology like they seemed to have coexisted in scripture?  Why are we so quick to throw one or the other out instead of living in the tension that these two doctrines present?
I believe man has free-will according to His nature. As God has a perfect will and a permissive will.

I believe someone dead in there sins cannot choose God on his own, I believe scripture supports this. I also believe a Christian can choose to sin. But God, is the only one who has absolute free will.

Can these two doctrines coexist? Absolutely, and they do. God does not have to make man stay in his sin, he does so by his own choice (free-will). For God's elect? I believe in divine providence, therefore when a man finally (genuinely) chooses Christ, it is entirely of his free will, he is not forced in any way. 

I believe scripture is pretty clear on these doctrines, if we study them without colored glasses. The reason many people "cling to either the sovereignty of God or the free will of man and they throw the other doctrine out with the trash." Is because they do not have a clear understanding of how this works, They believe if God is sovereign, then man, cannot have free will, I ask why? Or if man has free will then, how can God be sovereign? I ask, why not?  Yes God is Sovereign, and man has free will. It would be an error to throw either out into the trash. Many people are quick to throw one or the other out.
Free will is taught throughout scripture, it has not ended yet, You have a choice to either walk to the store or drive to the store, you have a choice to go to work this morning or stay home, the choices are yours, freely.
But for salvation? The scriptures teach differently. But, please, if you see teachings in scripture which shows man has free will, in his dead (fallen) state to choose Christ (all on his own) show me!?!

As of yet, all I have seen is mere words, no scripture. If free will according to salvation is in scripture, please, show me.

Offline Terrence

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #6 on: Sun Mar 02, 2008 - 18:00:50 »
My very simple definitions:

Freewill Before the Fall: Like Adam and Eve "before" the fall. They could choose either good or bad, but because their wills/desires were incline by a prefect nature, they chose God.

Freewill after the Fall: Man's will/desires, nature, mind, heart, etc., is wicked and enslaved to sin. All of his choices are incline to his nature. He hates light and loves darkness. He freely chooses his will over His creator. He hates God and is a rebel against God. 

For man to be saved, he must first be regenerated/born again, before he can make a freewill choice for Christ. Left to his old nature, he will not, indeed he cannot, chose to love what he hates most - namely a Holy God who demands man's obedience.




Offline Gracious

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #7 on: Sun Mar 02, 2008 - 18:19:10 »
"...I believe that there are some things we cannot possibly understand because we do not have the mind of God.  It would be easier to realize we cannot understand it and affirm both doctrines."

Yes &  ::amen!::Gary,

I agree.  Really liked the way you worded that! 

When it comes to the "ways" of our Deity, to understand Him "only" portionally down here, is a BLESSING!!!  Concerning our "free-will" agency ... As Christians we accept this delegation,  and we are constrained to surrender "our" will to HIM anyway.


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Offline Ek Pyros

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #8 on: Sun Mar 02, 2008 - 18:21:20 »
Many people in Christendom cling to either the sovereignty of God or the free will of man and they throw the other doctrine out with the trash.  Here is my question: can these two doctrines coexist in contemporary theology like they seemed to have coexisted in scripture?  Why are we so quick to throw one or the other out instead of living in the tension that these two doctrines present?


To me they do but I can not explain how and haven't seen anyone else explain it one way or the other clearly without holes in their theory. I am more inclined to say as Gary we just don't know the mind of God and can not explain just how he works.
Check out R.C. Sproul's Chosen By God.  It's a great work on just that subject.

Offline Alistair

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #9 on: Mon Mar 03, 2008 - 11:37:40 »
Its interesting how the phrase "free will" becomes so emotive in a debate like this one.  I think it goes back to the fall, we want to be free from God; that is what we inherited from Adam.  That's why we like to believe in evolution and free will.  But true worship of God is to acknowledge that He is God and He does as He wills and no man can stay His hand or say to Him, "What have you done?"

I think the fall had a huge impact on man's will, binding it in effect so that he cannot make a clear choice free from all interferences, that is beyond man now.

Offline JERRY C

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #10 on: Mon Mar 03, 2008 - 12:06:45 »
lunchtime at the mill.
time to check in at GCF.

I had a theology professor once, Arminian, Lockian, Aristotelian, tell us that definitions of terms is fundamental.
These two ideas come loaded with centuries of baggage.
We inherit this baggage, whether we recognize or acknowledge it.

examine the last quote --

I think the fall had a huge impact on man's will, binding it in effect so that he cannot make a clear choice free from all interferences, that is beyond man now.

so, in effect, anybody who differs with the "accepted" position is fallen, bound, impotent, ...   Come on now!  That is just too easy.  I think what I think because I am warped?!

God IS sovereign.  Man IS expected to choose (therefore, can he do this?)
so, I will vote "both".

Now, what do the terms mean?
Is "sovereignty" even the primary characterstic of God?!

Jesus made it all.

Jesus said, "...come unto me, ALL ye who ..."

(of course, that means all you, elect who have been regenerated by the Spirit..."?!?)

to agree with some previous comments, yeah, Jesus is God, and I am not.
His ways are above my ways, as the heavens above the earth.

Offline Mauviene

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #11 on: Mon Mar 03, 2008 - 23:39:57 »
God can only give man free will as long as man gives god sovereignty.

Offline Gracious

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #12 on: Mon Mar 03, 2008 - 23:54:01 »
God can only give man free will as long as man gives god sovereignty.

Hello Mauviene & WELCOME!!! ::smile::

Why do you feel this way?

Offline Mauviene

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #13 on: Tue Mar 04, 2008 - 00:27:07 »
God can only give man free will as long as man gives god sovereignty.

Hello Mauviene & WELCOME!!! ::smile::

Why do you feel this way?

Thank you for the warm welcoming..

I wrote the preceding statement in the form of a proverb for reasons I see fit. I leave you the honor in deciphering it as you please, but to give you a hint; what happens when a king realizes his people do not honor his sovereignty?

Offline Gracious

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #14 on: Tue Mar 04, 2008 - 01:35:26 »
Well,

I asked, because I wasn't aware that GOD granted us "free-will" on a contingency.  It appears to be quite the opposite. If it wasn't ... wouldn't we "still" be in Eden?  Or was that your point? ::blushing::

To answer your question ... He chastizes - calls them to HIS judgement. 

But afterwards (after we sin, & get spanked down here) that still will not gaurantee obedience ... just as the knowledge of an eternal  "lake of fire" does not gaurantee "Christ-like" obedience (in this life) ... even to HIS earthen followers.

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #15 on: Tue Mar 04, 2008 - 08:07:48 »
Many people in Christendom cling to either the sovereignty of God or the free will of man and they throw the other doctrine out with the trash.  Here is my question: can these two doctrines coexist in contemporary theology like they seemed to have coexisted in scripture?  Why are we so quick to throw one or the other out instead of living in the tension that these two doctrines present?

Scripture does not describe a free will that is free and independent of God.  No, there is no such free will.  Any "free will" we may designate in man is granted by the Father scripturally, it conceptually is an agency, always in the context of God's own overriding and consuming will in his created universe.  Otherwise to be free of God's own will would be to exist in nothingness.  The lauding and magnifying of man's own "free will" is truly an exercise of his own arrogance.

Therefore, to the extent this scriptural understanding of the sovereignty of God and man's "free will" guide the answer to your questions, they do co-exist.
« Last Edit: Tue Mar 04, 2008 - 08:16:49 by da525382 »

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #16 on: Tue Mar 04, 2008 - 09:59:56 »
Otherwise to be free of God's own will would be to exist in nothingness.  The lauding and magnifying of man's own "free will" is truly an exercise of his own arrogance.
So, just to be clear, are you saying that nothing can exist if it is not in God's will, in some fashion?

What about "God is not willing that any man should perish" ?

It seems apparent that men are perishing left and right.
« Last Edit: Sat Aug 09, 2008 - 21:13:57 by Wycliffes_Shillelagh »

Offline JERRY C

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #17 on: Tue Mar 04, 2008 - 11:56:28 »
WickStick,
any good C-plan man knows the "any" refers only to the "elect"; God does not give a rip about the rest.

and Dman, do you think that or has that been put in your head?  I somehow think we both have "chosen" to think the way we do, whether out of "arrogance" (to quote you) or out of ignorance, or both.

I am just a poor, ignorant sinner, but the more I examine the C-plan vs. the A-plan, the C-plan seems to be more and more gnostic.  I have a friend here locally who keeps a picture of the 4 Reformers on his desktop, and he is like talking to glazed-eyed cult member.  But, then I talk to A-plan people, and many of them are downright legalists!

I will pray for unity among all believers!  LOL

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #18 on: Tue Mar 04, 2008 - 12:43:01 »
Otherwise to be free of God's own will would be to exist in nothingness.  The lauding and magnifying of man's own "free will" is truly an exercise of his own arrogance.
So, just to be clear, are you saying that nothing can exist if it is not in God's will, in some fashion?

What about "God is not willing that any man should perish" ?
It seems apparent that men are perishing left and right.

What I am saying is that for one's own will to be free from (separated, made totally independent and free of) God's will is to exist in non-Godness.  There is no such thing as the free will of man, separate and independent of God's all consuming and sovereign will in His creation, His created dimension.  Otherwise, He would have had to create Himself as a separate being. 

That's why you do not see the free will of man lauded and magnified in scripture, as you seem to do IMO.  It is not.  As a matter of fact, God Himself is magnified, and man is characterized always in opposite terms.  To stand before God as if you are indeed free-willed like him, and in doing so laud and magnify your own "permissive will" toward God, restricting what He chooses to will in any way, is foreign to scripture and is indeed the quitessential manifestation of the arrogance of man.  He does as He pleases to do, always, before, after, or inspite of man's will.
« Last Edit: Tue Mar 04, 2008 - 12:50:47 by da525382 »

Offline Jimmy

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #19 on: Tue Mar 04, 2008 - 14:38:42 »
WickStick,
any good C-plan man knows the "any" refers only to the "elect"; God does not give a rip about the rest.

and Dman, do you think that or has that been put in your head?  I somehow think we both have "chosen" to think the way we do, whether out of "arrogance" (to quote you) or out of ignorance, or both.

I am just a poor, ignorant sinner, but the more I examine the C-plan vs. the A-plan, the C-plan seems to be more and more gnostic.  I have a friend here locally who keeps a picture of the 4 Reformers on his desktop, and he is like talking to glazed-eyed cult member.  But, then I talk to A-plan people, and many of them are downright legalists!

I will pray for unity among all believers!  LOL

It is interesting that God can do anything that He wishes or wants.  He does as He wills.   Absloutely anything except, of course, to give man the free will to chose.  That is completely beyond His capability.  The other thing of course is that even though God created man in His own image, it only took one lowly man Adam to completely undo that so that any image that God created in man is ruined for all time and has to be repaired by God for those He "elects".  The rest as you noted, He couldn't care less.

Offline JERRY C

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #20 on: Tue Mar 04, 2008 - 15:53:29 »
so, Jimmy,
are we agreeing, or am I misunderstanding?
you are aware of sarcasm?!

this whole discussion is about theology and anthropology in a fundamental sense.
I get accused of weak caricatures of the C-plan; but, I really do not visualize God as John C. did.
"Father" "Shepherd" "Savior" ...
theological triple somersaults aside, He is Love, bottom-line.

IMHO, the C-plan has a hierarchy, of attributes of God, that is upside-down and distorted.

He really does give a "rip" about all of us (and "us" is not just the "elect")

Offline Harold

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #21 on: Tue Mar 04, 2008 - 16:06:48 »
Deu 32:4  He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.

Isa 58:2  For day after day they seek me out; they seem eager to know my ways, as if they were a nation that does what is right and has not forsaken the commands of its God. They ask me for just decisions and seem eager for God to come near them.

Amo 5:14  Seek good, not evil, that you may live. Then the LORD God Almighty will be with you, just as you say he is.

2Th 1:6  God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you
2Th 1:8  He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Rev 15:3  and sang the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb: "Great and marvelous are your deeds, Lord God Almighty. Just and true are your ways, King of the ages.

Rev 16:7  And I heard the altar respond: "Yes, Lord God Almighty, true and just are your judgments."

Rom 1:18  The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
Rom 1:19  since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

If we do not have a free will to choose God how can God be just.

What can be known of God has been made plain to all the Godless people, because God has revealed it to them.

News flash we know we are guilty, and must choose either to come to God when He calls or die in our sins.

Rom 1:20  For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Men know and yet refuse to obey the Good News of Jesus Christ.

Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22  Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
Rom 1:23  and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

Those godless fools know He is God, and yet do not give Him thanks.

Big holes, really big holes.

Joh 8:28  So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.
Joh 12:32  But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
Joh 6:44  "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

The message of Jesus is the Way the Father draws all men to himself, through His Son Jesus Christ.

Rom 1:16  I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

Choose this day a blessing or a curse.

FTL

Offline zoonance

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #22 on: Tue Mar 04, 2008 - 17:18:44 »
Makes one think of Job.  what's the big deal if he was basically only a puppet?

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #23 on: Tue Mar 04, 2008 - 19:36:05 »
so, Jimmy,
are we agreeing, or am I misunderstanding?
you are aware of sarcasm?!

this whole discussion is about theology and anthropology in a fundamental sense.
I get accused of weak caricatures of the C-plan; but, I really do not visualize God as John C. did.
"Father" "Shepherd" "Savior" ...
theological triple somersaults aside, He is Love, bottom-line.

IMHO, the C-plan has a hierarchy, of attributes of God, that is upside-down and distorted.

He really does give a "rip" about all of us (and "us" is not just the "elect")
Sorry, I meant to respond but got involved in something else.

Yes, I think we mostly agree here.  My post was not so much sarcasm as tongue-in-cheek.  God cares dearly for each and every one of us.  When asked which of her eleven children she loved the most, my wife's grandmother replied, "The one that is away until he returns and the one that is sick until he is well."  That love came from God who, I believe, feels very much the same way.

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #24 on: Tue Mar 11, 2008 - 19:43:29 »
Otherwise to be free of God's own will would be to exist in nothingness.  The lauding and magnifying of man's own "free will" is truly an exercise of his own arrogance.
So, just to be clear, are you saying that nothing can exist if it is not in God's will, in some fashion?

What about "God is not willing that any man should perish" ?
It seems apparent that men are perishing left and right.

What I am saying is that for one's own will to be free from (separated, made totally independent and free of) God's will is to exist in non-Godness.  There is no such thing as the free will of man, separate and independent of God's all consuming and sovereign will in His creation, His created dimension.  Otherwise, He would have had to create Himself as a separate being. 

That's why you do not see the free will of man lauded and magnified in scripture, as you seem to do IMO.  It is not.  As a matter of fact, God Himself is magnified, and man is characterized always in opposite terms.  To stand before God as if you are indeed free-willed like him, and in doing so laud and magnify your own "permissive will" toward God, restricting what He chooses to will in any way, is foreign to scripture and is indeed the quitessential manifestation of the arrogance of man.  He does as He pleases to do, always, before, after, or inspite of man's will.
What makes you think that I find the exercise of man's free will to be a desirable thing?  I actually rather think the opposite.  That's sort of the whole point of the two trees there in the beginning, jah?

Where did I laud or magnify my permissive will?  Are you confusing me with another poster here?  ::shrug::  ::headscratch::

Re-read my first post in this thread:

Quote
Sovereignty means that God can do whatever He wants. 
Which includes sitting back and letting things run their natural course.

Yes, I believe God very often lets us do our thing....laissez-faire.
Yes, I believe that God can and does sovereignly step in and violate our free will sometimes.

What was the conflict between the two???  I suppose some people hold free will in such a way that it is inviolable, but that just doesn't hold up, IMO.

Just where did I exalt the will of man over the will of God here?  I was just a bit confused by your post...which you still haven't really clarified....what is non-Godness?

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #25 on: Tue Mar 11, 2008 - 20:11:20 »
Something that I've been theorizing with on this matter.  Ok, we know God knows what's going to happen before it does, he sees the timeline outside of the linear, and knows full well the complete story of man from the beginning to the end.  Now, if he saw the entire show and decided that without his intervention, many would turn away from him, in his wisdom opted to step in from time to time and nudge these individuals towards the right path, similar to a shepard tending his flock, knowing full well, these lost lambs can be recovered and saved, yet require his help in the process knowing the outcome if he did not, then his freewill is clearly defined in those circumstances.  You almost think of there being two time lines, one with his intervention, kind of like a trial run where man is left to his own devices using his freewill unabated, and one with his involvment, the final run so to speak.

What this does is allow man to still have free will, it also allows a guided effort by God to keep who has the potential to be saved, saved, and the ones where no amount of prodding by him will get them to change their mind and their own use of their own freewill, which in all scenereo's turn away from him, he leaves them to their own devices knowing they refuse to be saved.

It's just a theory guys, but it helps to make more sense of it all and I can't say it's impossible for him to run things this way, for he can do anything he wants.

Offline Butch5

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #26 on: Thu Aug 07, 2008 - 08:58:31 »
Many people in Christendom cling to either the sovereignty of God or the free will of man and they throw the other doctrine out with the trash.  Here is my question: can these two doctrines coexist in contemporary theology like they seemed to have coexisted in scripture?  Why are we so quick to throw one or the other out instead of living in the tension that these two doctrines present?

In order to understand the relationship between free will and sovereignty, you must understand the issues that were being dealt with at the time of the writing. For instance to understand what Paul was saying in Romans you have to understand what was going on in the church at Rome at the time Paul was writing. We cannot look at the Scriptures in a theological vacuum with a 21st century perspective and think we can figure out what they mean.

Offline Harold

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #27 on: Thu Aug 07, 2008 - 13:18:01 »
It is God's will that you all humans must urinate.

You get up in the morning and realize God's will is about to be done.

Now the choice, you can go to the bathroom, or you can wet your PJ's, either way God's will, will be done.

In the beginning God through Christ created all things, In the end God through Christ will judge all things.

In the middle we can choose Jesus Chrsit as our savior, or meet Him as the judge.

The choice is yours.

FTL

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #28 on: Sat Aug 09, 2008 - 21:19:36 »
For some reason, as I read through this, I'm reminded of the scene in the Matrix where Laurence Fishburne offers Keanu Reeves the Red Pill or the Blue Pill.

Offline Hobbit

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #29 on: Thu Aug 14, 2008 - 13:06:51 »
There is no conflict between the sovereignty of God and God's giving man free will.  The conflict is only in what some say that God cannot do, such as , giving man free will.



There is no conflict between the sovereignty of God and God's giving man free will.  The conflict is only in what some say that God cannot do, such as , giving man free will.

Hi Jimmy,
It is not a question of God not being able to do any thing! It is a question of has He given.
I have searched the Sciptures and have not found any evidence of the natural man having a the will to do anthing (apart from Grace) but sin!

God Himself, cannot sin!!!

Rom 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
  Rom 3:10 as it is written,
"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
  Rom 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
  Rom 3:12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
  Rom 3:13 "THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,"
"THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
  Rom 3:14 "WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS";
  Rom 3:15 "THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
  Rom 3:16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
  Rom 3:17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
  Rom 3:18 "THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."


Hobbit


Offline Jimmy

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #30 on: Thu Aug 14, 2008 - 13:27:24 »
There is no conflict between the sovereignty of God and God's giving man free will.  The conflict is only in what some say that God cannot do, such as , giving man free will.

There is no conflict between the sovereignty of God and God's giving man free will.  The conflict is only in what some say that God cannot do, such as , giving man free will.

Hi Jimmy,
It is not a question of God not being able to do any thing! It is a question of has He given.
I have searched the Sciptures and have not found any evidence of the natural man having a the will to do anthing (apart from Grace) but sin!

If it were to jump out an smack you across the face you wouldn't find it.




Rom 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
  Rom 3:10 as it is written,
"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
  Rom 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
  Rom 3:12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
  Rom 3:13 "THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,"
"THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
  Rom 3:14 "WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS";
  Rom 3:15 "THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
  Rom 3:16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
  Rom 3:17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
  Rom 3:18 "THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."

Hobbit,  is your throat literally and open grave?  Or is there a metaphor in that?  Is there literally the poison of asps under your lips?  Or is there a metaphor in that as well.  And how about your feet, etc., etc.

The metaphor(s) of verses 13-18 is a pretty good indication that verses 10-12 should be viewed metaphorically also.  But that is one of those smacks across your face that you are going to ignore.

Offline Hobbit

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #31 on: Thu Aug 14, 2008 - 16:29:49 »
Jimmy,

Yes,  I realize the passage is mostly metaphorical. Paul uses it to make his point,which is:

What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

Hobitt

Offline Hobbit

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #32 on: Sat Aug 16, 2008 - 12:04:30 »
The primary concerns, that I (and many of my reformed brethren) see  it... "free-willism"
is an infringement of God's Sovereignty and of His exlcusive claim to ALL GLORY.

Hobbit

Offline Jimmy

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #33 on: Sat Aug 16, 2008 - 12:18:31 »
The primary concerns, that I (and many of my reformed brethren) see  it... "free-willism"
is an infringement of God's Sovereignty and of His exlcusive claim to ALL GLORY.

Hobbit

If God created man with the free will to choose, how can that be an infringement of God's sovereignty?  How can anything God does be an infringement on His sovereignty?

If you want to think about an infringement upon anything having to do with God, His qualities and character, think about what infringement original sin imposes.  You would actually have someone or something come along after God has finished with His creation (Gen 2:2) and change the fundamental nature and character of His creation.  Now that is an infringement.

Offline zoonance

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #34 on: Sat Aug 16, 2008 - 12:44:43 »
The primary concerns, that I (and many of my reformed brethren) see  it... "free-willism"
is an infringement of God's Sovereignty and of His exlcusive claim to ALL GLORY.

Hobbit


This of course is supposed to serve as the Clincher that forces the rereading into the "difficult" texts that speak of personal responsibility.  I understand the reason some would prefer taking a stand that serves to limit self instead of facing self.  The Sovereign God has made it sovereignly clear that his son died on the cross so that self faces self, denies self, dies to self - becomes a living sacrifice, etc.     I hear you though.