Fore knowledge is not predeterminism. God knows the out come and predicts according to fore knowledge.

FTL

JerryW.

I do feel sorry for you.  Worshipping a God who one thinks makes a person commit evil and then condemns that person to eternal damnation for committing evil has got to lead to psycohoses for any rational being.

The pagan gods of the Greeks and the Romans were not even that duplicitous.

I wonder what kind of God Jimmy worships.  One that is semi-sovereign?  One that only makes sense to him?  One that doesn't declare authority over all?  Does He worship the Lord who commanded Israel to lay waste to nations - men, women, children, livestock without mercy?  Does He worship a God who from before the foundation of the earth established His plan of redemption, namely His death upon a cross and He purposed the use of the "son of perdition" so that the Scriptures might be fulfilled? 

Why would Jimmy think that God would do anything that was not just and was not right and was not pure in all that He did?  And yet, Jimmy feels sorry for Jerry for trusting that Savior and accepting all that He does and allows.  Does Jimmy think Judas was an accident?  That God's plan was left to the decision of a man?  Why was Judas created?  Well, we know Jesus came to die.  God purposed that awful, awful death.  Jimmy doesn't have a problem with that, but he does have a problem that a person like Judas was born with an exact purpose as if somehow that isn't fair or right or just. 

Take a look at Jesus, Jimmy.  Did He deserve what God purposed and planned for Him?

I guess it isn't unjust if God does it.  It does seem that all rational thinking goes out the door when they talk about the sovereignty of God.  Authority means causation to them.   God doesn't sin, He just makes everyone sin.  It is truly amazing the terrible things they accuse God of being and doing.  But it doesn't matter to them that they accuse God of the most dispicable things that anyone could imagine because they call it sovereignty.  Amazing.  Absolutely amazing.

By the way segell, Jesus said He gave His life for us.  He had a choice.

But wasn't that decision made from the beginning of time?  He gave His life because He planned it that way, didn't He?

I'm not rejecting anything.  I'm thinking about it though.  While Jesus was fully man, He was Deity as well.  Of course He suffered.  Of course He had anguish.  But He also had the Father and there was something extraordinary about that relationship.  Do you think He would/could actually walk away from the Father?  I don't think so.  John 17 comes to mind.  Also, in John 15 Jesus speaks eloquently how He and the Father are one.  And that His joy was found in His obedience to the Father - even to death.  Also, some might suggest that Jesus' anquish was in the knowledge that His Father would have to turn from Him in His hour of suffering.

Also, later He says to His disciples John 15:16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last.

Interesting stuff.  Lastly, Jesus wasn't seeking to change His choice or mind, He was asking His Father to change His mind or decision.  Jesus, in essence, because of His relationship with the Father, wasn't trying to exercise His own choice, but always did the bidding of His Father. 

I don't think this is necessarily as cut and dried as some might think about Jesus having a choice to change His Father's plan. 

Good points.  But I don't know if it is a question about choice so much as it is the assuredness of God's Plan.  If God makes a plan predicated on His foreknowledge hasn't there been a determination before time?  And doesn't that determination reign?

Did you consider my point that Jesus wasn't struggling with His choice, but the will of the Father?  And did you consider that His anguish had more to do with His separation from the Father?  That that was the cup He was asking to have passed?

Anyway, whether Jesus had a choice or not isn't as compelling to me as His purposeful and obedient pursuit of the Father.  His joy - His complete joy was only found in the Father.  His Trust was complete in His Father.  Do you think that Jesus was able to accept His Father's by sheer choice?  I think it had all to do with the strength His Father gave Him. 

Now as to Satan.  Jesus purpose was, in essence, to crush Satan.  He was purposeful.  Satan didn't have a chance, did He? 

Jimmy, you have the choice to do anything under the sun.  Agreed?  I do too.  But there are some choices that would never be made even if we had the choice because the choice would be too painful to make.  You have the choice to rob a bank or do something ugly, for instance.  But you won't exercise that choice.  So, is it really choice we are talking about or are we talking about who you are and the values you have. 

I guess Jesus had a choice - but in your examples He would never act against His Father - never.  That is why it is His obedience that truly saves.

Sorry, Jimmy.  When you throw around what is and isn't rational, take a closer look at what you write.  The Bible says that Satan tempted Jesus.  Where does it say that Jesus was, even after 40 days of fasting, tempted to turn from the Father.  Instead we see Jesus countering Satan with the Word of God.  Time after time. We see the futility of Satan and the power of God. 

And if Satan is as smart as you say he is (and I agree) why doesn't he know that he has been utterly defeated?

Finally, what started my exchange with you on this point was your rather disrespectful or at least dismissive response to Jerry.  You criticized him for worshipping a God that you said could do such a horrible thing as to cause someone to sin and then to condemn that person.  That is an interesting point.  But, please, reveal your very good rational capability by explaining this (something I wrote earlier that you chose to not comment on):

Tell me how rational it was for God to command the deaths of men, women and children (innocent by your own declarations) for the purpose of providing His people a land.  How did those persons, especially the children, have the opportunity to make a choice?  How could you worship such a God (as you might put it) who wouldn't give someone the chance to choose  Something that you declare over and over is such a vital part of God's plan?

It's funny how you feel sorry for some people and their belief.  I would feel sorry for anyone who didn't have Christ Jesus in the very center of their personal story of salvation. 

Lastly, you said:


For a believer, that is absolutely true!!!  You don't have anything to worry about with regard to Satan.