Welcome, Guest. Login or register to use the forums.
Did you miss your activation email?
November 21, 2009, 12:01:53 AM
Home Help Search Login Register
GCM Home | Bible Search | Rules | Bookstore | Support | Newsletter


+  Christian Forums
|-+  Christian Interests
| |-+  Organized Religion and Religious Movements Discussions
| | |-+  Protestantism
| | | |-+  Arminianism
| | | | |-+  The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?		 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 [9] 10 Go Down Print
Author Topic: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?  (Read 7764 times)
Jaime
(Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
Global Moderator
Lee's Inner Circle Member
*****

Manna: 357
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 12091


I am a Genius you know!

Blog entries (1)

View Profile
« Reply #120 on: December 13, 2008, 09:19:09 AM »
Quote from: segell link=topic=24652.msg582862#msg582862

For a believer, that is absolutely true!!!  You don't have anything to worry about with regard to Satan.

So the following scripture, clearly written to Christians, should have been written:

1Pe 5:8  Be sober, be watchful: your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may cannot devour?
Logged
Proverbs 3: 5-6  Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him and He will make your paths straight.

                                          
CLICK HERE ---->My New Blog
Jimmy
Legendary Member
******

Manna: 158
Offline Offline

Mood:

Posts: 5305

Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #121 on: December 13, 2008, 09:33:06 AM »
Quote from: segell on December 13, 2008, 08:45:54 AM
Quote from: Jimmy on December 12, 2008, 02:50:20 PM
Segell,

If what you are saying is true then I don't think we have anything to worry about concerning Satan.  If he was so stupid as to not know that Jesus had no choice in the matter, I don't think we have much to worry about.  Morever, if that were the case, I think the Bible would have made some mention of that fact instead of presenting the ordeal is it does.  But Satan did know that Jesus had a choice.  And Satan is not stupid so we do have something to worry about.

So yes, I think it is necessarily cut and dried as some think it is.  Here as in the case of our election through God's foreknowledge of what we will do, God (and Jesus) from before the foundation of the world, knew beforehand the choice that the man Jesus would make.  It really isn't all that difficult a concept to grasp.

Quote from: Jimmy on December 12, 2008, 03:47:59 PM
segell,

Foreknowledge is not causative.

We are who we are by our choices.  Our values are ours by our choice.  God did not predestine or foreordain me not to rob banks.

Jesus was indeed tempted.  The Bible says so.  If there is no ability to yield then there is no temptation.

Again and again, your arguments are simply not rational.  I don't know what else to say about it. 

Sorry, Jimmy.  When you throw around what is and isn't rational, take a closer look at what you write.  The Bible says that Satan tempted Jesus.  Where does it say that Jesus was, even after 40 days of fasting, tempted to turn from the Father.  Instead we see Jesus countering Satan with the Word of God.  Time after time. We see the futility of Satan and the power of God. 

So then it is not really temptation of we do not succumb?  If it isn't by choice that Jesus did not submit to Satan's temptation, what was it?  Oh yes, it was who He was.   And I guess when the writer of Hebrews says that Jesus was tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin, since He didn't sin, then it wasn't by choice that he was without sin that He did not sin; rather it was just who He was.  More irrational arguments.


Quote from: segell on December 13, 2008, 08:45:54 AM

And if Satan is as smart as you say he is (and I agree) why doesn't he know that he has been utterly defeated?

I don't know why Satan did what he did from the very beginning.  But I assume that he has not given up because every soul that he keeps from God, in his mind it is one more victory on his part, no matter the final outcome.  Beyond that I do not know.  I do know that he is still operating on some level.  The NT writers give us that.

Quote from: segell on December 13, 2008, 08:45:54 AM
Finally, what started my exchange with you on this point was your rather disrespectful or at least dismissive response to Jerry.  You criticized him for worshipping a God that you said could do such a horrible thing as to cause someone to sin and then to condemn that person.  That is an interesting point.  But, please, reveal your very good rational capability by explaining this (something I wrote earlier that you chose to not comment on):

Tell me how rational it was for God to command the deaths of men, women and children (innocent by your own declarations) for the purpose of providing His people a land.  How did those persons, especially the children, have the opportunity to make a choice?  How could you worship such a God (as you might put it) who wouldn't give someone the chance to choose Something that you declare over and over is such a vital part of God's plan?

First, you confuse the physical with the spiritual.  There are a lot of things in this world that we simply do not have a choice about.  My mother, I am sure, given the choice, would have chosen not to die of cancer.  But that was not a choice that she had.  Our soldiers in arms, if given the choice, certainlly would not die in the service of our country.  But that is not always a choice they have.  I do not believe that God holds us accountable in such circumstances.

Still there are some who have not and will not have a choice where Jesus and their salvation is concerned.  We, I think, really do not know what God's plan is for them.  We have only what He has told us in the Bible.  So all of your bantering concerning God's dealings with those occupying the promised land is of no consequence in the discussion of choice in the matter of salvation.

Quote from: segell on December 13, 2008, 08:45:54 AM
It's funny how you feel sorry for some people and their belief.  I would feel sorry for anyone who didn't have Christ Jesus in the very center of their personal story of salvation. 

What is funny is how you think that being given the opportunity to choose or reject Christ Jesus as Lord and savior removes Him from the very center of their personal story of salvation for those who do choose Him.  More irrational thinking.

Quote from: segell on December 13, 2008, 08:45:54 AM
Lastly, you said:

Quote
If what you are saying is true then I don't think we have anything to worry about concerning Satan.

For a believer, that is absolutely true!!!  You don't have anything to worry about with regard to Satan.

1Pe 5:8  Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

I don't know about you segell, but I would always worry about anyone who the Bible says is my adversary.  But I understand that the reformed position might be such that Satan is of no consequence whatever to you.  I mean elect is elect.   And even though Jesus was tempted by Satan, it seems that you consider yourself above the fray.  Interesting.  Irrational thinking again, but interesting.
Logged
Christian Forums
« Reply #121 on: December 13, 2008, 09:33:06 AM »
 Logged
segell
Hero
*****

Manna: 225
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 4179


segell

Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #122 on: December 14, 2008, 12:43:00 PM »
Quote from: Jimmy on December 13, 2008, 09:33:06 AM

Quote from: segell on December 13, 2008, 08:45:54 AM
It's funny how you feel sorry for some people and their belief.  I would feel sorry for anyone who didn't have Christ Jesus in the very center of their personal story of salvation. 

What is funny is how you think that being given the opportunity to choose or reject Christ Jesus as Lord and savior removes Him from the very center of their personal story of salvation for those who do choose Him.  More irrational thinking.


Actually, my comment was a rather immature comeback at you, personally, Jimmy.  It was not meant to broadbrush a group.  I only had your comments to refer to.  I was hoping (and this isn't good enough reason for posting the above) you would feel the sting of the comment and therefore understand the sting in your own commentary.  Again, something I'm not proud of, but that was the purpose of the comment.
Logged
Ephesians 2:8-10  Who saves, how He saves, why He saves.

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
segell
Hero
*****

Manna: 225
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 4179


segell

Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #123 on: December 14, 2008, 12:50:27 PM »
Quote from: Jimmy on December 13, 2008, 09:33:06 AM

Quote
If what you are saying is true then I don't think we have anything to worry about concerning Satan.

For a believer, that is absolutely true!!!  You don't have anything to worry about with regard to Satan.

1Pe 5:8  Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

I don't know about you segell, but I would always worry about anyone who the Bible says is my adversary.  But I understand that the reformed position might be such that Satan is of no consequence whatever to you.  I mean elect is elect.   And even though Jesus was tempted by Satan, it seems that you consider yourself above the fray.  Interesting.  Irrational thinking again, but interesting.
[/quote]

Well, Jimmy, again we look at things differently.  You said you would always worry.  There is no need to.  Continue reading in Peter and you will see that there is victory.  Not in our selves but in the power of God!  Peter writes:

Quote
"God opposes the proud
      but gives grace to the humble."[a] 6Humble yourselves, therefore, under God's mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time. 7Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.

 8Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. 9Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings.

 10And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast. 11To him be the power for ever and ever. Amen.


Remember, Peter is speaking to the young - either of age or of faith.  He doesn't say to worry about the devil, but to be diligent, resisting him and standing firm.  And verse 10 tells us where our victory lies. 

You can worry all you want.  Paul tells us to be anxious over nothing but in all things pray.  He doesn't tell us to worry.  But, if the focus is on yourself, your power of choice and your abilities, I guess I can see why you would be worried.

The victory we have in Christ is assured and our now!  Isn't it?  Or should we be worried?
Logged
Ephesians 2:8-10  Who saves, how He saves, why He saves.

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
segell
Hero
*****

Manna: 225
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 4179


segell

Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #124 on: December 14, 2008, 12:51:27 PM »

Quote from: Jimmy on December 13, 2008, 09:33:06 AM

Quote
If what you are saying is true then I don't think we have anything to worry about concerning Satan.

For a believer, that is absolutely true!!!  You don't have anything to worry about with regard to Satan.

Quote
1Pe 5:8  Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

I don't know about you segell, but I would always worry about anyone who the Bible says is my adversary.  But I understand that the reformed position might be such that Satan is of no consequence whatever to you.  I mean elect is elect.   And even though Jesus was tempted by Satan, it seems that you consider yourself above the fray.  Interesting.  Irrational thinking again, but interesting.

Well, Jimmy, again we look at things differently.  You said you would always worry.  There is no need to.  Continue reading in Peter and you will see that there is victory.  Not in our selves but in the power of God!  Peter writes:

Quote
"God opposes the proud
      but gives grace to the humble."[a] 6Humble yourselves, therefore, under God's mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time. 7Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.

 8Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. 9Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings.

 10And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast. 11To him be the power for ever and ever. Amen.


Remember, Peter is speaking to the young - either of age or of faith.  He doesn't say to worry about the devil, but to be diligent, resisting him and standing firm.  And verse 10 tells us where our victory lies. 

You can worry all you want.  Paul tells us to be anxious over nothing but in all things pray.  He doesn't tell us to worry.  But, if the focus is on yourself, your power of choice and your abilities, I guess I can see why you would be worried.

The victory we have in Christ is assured and our now!  Isn't it?  Or should we be worried?
Logged
Ephesians 2:8-10  Who saves, how He saves, why He saves.

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
segell
Hero
*****

Manna: 225
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 4179


segell

Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #125 on: December 14, 2008, 01:05:16 PM »
Lastly, Jimmy, when you say:

Quote
First, you confuse the physical with the spiritual.  There are a lot of things in this world that we simply do not have a choice about.  My mother, I am sure, given the choice, would have chosen not to die of cancer.  But that was not a choice that she had.  Our soldiers in arms, if given the choice, certainlly would not die in the service of our country.  But that is not always a choice they have.  I do not believe that God holds us accountable in such circumstances.

Still there are some who have not and will not have a choice where Jesus and their salvation is concerned.  We, I think, really do not know what God's plan is for them.  We have only what He has told us in the Bible.  So all of your bantering concerning God's dealings with those occupying the promised land is of no consequence in the discussion of choice in the matter of salvation.

let me say that I'm not confused about it.  I am taking your own criticism of Jerry and how sorry you felt for him because he could believe in a God who would do such and such and not give anyone a choice but to force His will upon them.  What the heck is the difference, Jimmy, when God commanded the utter destruction of nations?  There is no difference.  Judas was condemned by what he did and what he did was for God's purposes.  God can do what He wants to anyone at anytime.  He is utterly sovereign and to think that you or any of us would deign to ridicule another believer for his confidence and faith in the perfection of God's wisdom, mercy, grace and justice in the outcome of His plan is beyond me. 

Just because your sense of rational thought doesn't accept anothers point of view doesn't mean that the other is irrational.  It just might mean that you don't get it.  All we can do, in the final analysis, is to trust God.  Pure and simple. 

I'll let you have the last say if you wish.
Logged
Ephesians 2:8-10  Who saves, how He saves, why He saves.

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
Christian Forums
« Reply #125 on: December 14, 2008, 01:05:16 PM »
 Logged
Jimmy
Legendary Member
******

Manna: 158
Offline Offline

Mood:

Posts: 5305

Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #126 on: December 14, 2008, 01:37:51 PM »
Quote from: segell on December 14, 2008, 01:05:16 PM
Lastly, Jimmy, when you say:

Quote
First, you confuse the physical with the spiritual.  There are a lot of things in this world that we simply do not have a choice about.  My mother, I am sure, given the choice, would have chosen not to die of cancer.  But that was not a choice that she had.  Our soldiers in arms, if given the choice, certainlly would not die in the service of our country.  But that is not always a choice they have.  I do not believe that God holds us accountable in such circumstances.

Still there are some who have not and will not have a choice where Jesus and their salvation is concerned.  We, I think, really do not know what God's plan is for them.  We have only what He has told us in the Bible.  So all of your bantering concerning God's dealings with those occupying the promised land is of no consequence in the discussion of choice in the matter of salvation.

let me say that I'm not confused about it.  I am taking your own criticism of Jerry and how sorry you felt for him because he could believe in a God who would do such and such and not give anyone a choice but to force His will upon them.  What the heck is the difference, Jimmy, when God commanded the utter destruction of nations?  There is no difference.  Judas was condemned by what he did and what he did was for God's purposes.  God can do what He wants to anyone at anytime.  He is utterly sovereign and to think that you or any of us would deign to ridicule another believer for his confidence and faith in the perfection of God's wisdom, mercy, grace and justice in the outcome of His plan is beyond me. 

Just because your sense of rational thought doesn't accept anothers point of view doesn't mean that the other is irrational.  It just might mean that you don't get it.  All we can do, in the final analysis, is to trust God.  Pure and simple. 

I'll let you have the last say if you wish.

No, What Judas did was used by God to bring about the means of redemption.  But what Judas did was not for God's purposes; it was for his own selfish purposes.  Neither did God command the Israelites to destroy all the people in the promised land and then condemn them for killing men.  It is clear from this and from other things that you have said, that you really do not understand the difference.  segell, I find that terribly sad.
Logged
segell
Hero
*****

Manna: 225
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 4179


segell

Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #127 on: December 14, 2008, 09:17:37 PM »
Quote from: Jimmy on December 14, 2008, 01:37:51 PM
Quote from: segell on December 14, 2008, 01:05:16 PM
Lastly, Jimmy, when you say:

Quote
First, you confuse the physical with the spiritual.  There are a lot of things in this world that we simply do not have a choice about.  My mother, I am sure, given the choice, would have chosen not to die of cancer.  But that was not a choice that she had.  Our soldiers in arms, if given the choice, certainlly would not die in the service of our country.  But that is not always a choice they have.  I do not believe that God holds us accountable in such circumstances.

Still there are some who have not and will not have a choice where Jesus and their salvation is concerned.  We, I think, really do not know what God's plan is for them.  We have only what He has told us in the Bible.  So all of your bantering concerning God's dealings with those occupying the promised land is of no consequence in the discussion of choice in the matter of salvation.

let me say that I'm not confused about it.  I am taking your own criticism of Jerry and how sorry you felt for him because he could believe in a God who would do such and such and not give anyone a choice but to force His will upon them.  What the heck is the difference, Jimmy, when God commanded the utter destruction of nations?  There is no difference.  Judas was condemned by what he did and what he did was for God's purposes.  God can do what He wants to anyone at anytime.  He is utterly sovereign and to think that you or any of us would deign to ridicule another believer for his confidence and faith in the perfection of God's wisdom, mercy, grace and justice in the outcome of His plan is beyond me. 

Just because your sense of rational thought doesn't accept anothers point of view doesn't mean that the other is irrational.  It just might mean that you don't get it.  All we can do, in the final analysis, is to trust God.  Pure and simple. 

I'll let you have the last say if you wish.

No, What Judas did was used by God to bring about the means of redemption.  But what Judas did was not for God's purposes; it was for his own selfish purposes.  Neither did God command the Israelites to destroy all the people in the promised land and then condemn them for killing men.  It is clear from this and from other things that you have said, that you really do not understand the difference.  segell, I find that terribly sad.

Jimmy, I know the difference.  Save your sadness.  The subject is God's sovereign purposes.  Both are reflected in the two examples.  I wasn't comparing the actions of Israel in obedience to God's command to Judas' action.  Go back and read the thread.  The example of God's command to Israel wasn't brought up for comparative purposes to Judas but to question your judgment in criticizing another poster.  You are the one who thinks Jerry worships a cruel God.  Gee, I wonder if that might be shared by those peoples God commanded to be slaughtered concerning the God you worship.  The point is that neither perspectives would be correct - yours or those condemned peoples.
Logged
Ephesians 2:8-10  Who saves, how He saves, why He saves.

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
segell
Hero
*****

Manna: 225
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 4179


segell

Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #128 on: December 14, 2008, 09:19:51 PM »
Quote from: Jaime on December 13, 2008, 09:19:09 AM
Quote from: segell link=topic=24652.msg582862#msg582862

For a believer, that is absolutely true!!!  You don't have anything to worry about with regard to Satan.

So the following scripture, clearly written to Christians, should have been written:

1Pe 5:8  Be sober, be watchful: your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may cannot devour?

See my comments to Jimmy above.  God does not call us to worry.  His victory is assured for those in Him.  Look at the context and who Peter is talking to.  Being called to diligence isn't to be called to worry which was the focus of my comment to Jimmy.  We have victory over Satan, Jaime.
Logged
Ephesians 2:8-10  Who saves, how He saves, why He saves.

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
Jaime
(Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
Global Moderator
Lee's Inner Circle Member
*****

Manna: 357
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 12091


I am a Genius you know!

Blog entries (1)

View Profile
« Reply #129 on: December 14, 2008, 09:26:00 PM »
Steve the following is a quote from jmg3rd that he made in response to a tongue in cheek post I made (#407) of the Should Christians Own Guns Thread:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php/topic,30416.msg583260.html#msg583260

Quote from: jmg3rd on December 14, 2008, 07:16:56 AM
2nd Peter 2 (NIV)
20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

Reading  If the phrase in italics is an impossibility, the Apostle Peter was wasting ink.

I agree with jmg's statement following the scripture.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2008, 09:40:13 PM by Jaime » Logged
Proverbs 3: 5-6  Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him and He will make your paths straight.

                                          
CLICK HERE ---->My New Blog
Christian Forums
« Reply #129 on: December 14, 2008, 09:26:00 PM »
 Logged
segell
Hero
*****

Manna: 225
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 4179


segell

Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #130 on: December 14, 2008, 09:38:51 PM »
Quote from: Jaime on December 14, 2008, 09:26:00 PM
Quote from: jmg3rd on December 14, 2008, 07:16:56 AM
2nd Peter 2 (NIV)
20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

Reading  If the phrase in italics is an impossibility, the Apostle Peter was wasting ink.

I believe it is possible to become entangled in sin again with Satan's help even for a Christian.

Jaime -

With respect, I don't believe Peter is talking about Christians but false teachers.  I guess I just hold onto the promises of our victory in Christ.  Our shepherd can and will and does protect His flock from the roaring lion.

With that said, I know all of us who are in Christ battle every single day with sin and our nature to do that which we ought not to do instead of that which we know we ought to do.  That is the struggle for those of us in Christ.  But again, He is the victor.  He tells us not to worry, not to be anxious over anything but to take everything to Him in prayer.  And what is the promise there?  A peace that passes all understanding.  If we rest in God's strength to be our victor instead of our own, there is nothing at all to worry about.  But if we believe we can do anything apart from Christ, then, well there is the problem, isn't it?

Steve
Logged
Ephesians 2:8-10  Who saves, how He saves, why He saves.

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
Jaime
(Pronounced Hi-Me, not Ja-Me)
Global Moderator
Lee's Inner Circle Member
*****

Manna: 357
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 12091


I am a Genius you know!

Blog entries (1)

View Profile
« Reply #131 on: December 14, 2008, 09:45:18 PM »
I respectfully disagree Steve. I believe he is talking about false teachers that HAD BEEN Christians. This is an age old argument that I admit will not be swayed by my words. I just believe in my heart the word of God teaches the possibility of apostasy, and warns repeatedly of such. But it doesn't cause me to consider you less of a brother. And it makes me and others like me no less of a victorious Christian.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2008, 10:08:48 PM by Jaime » Logged
Proverbs 3: 5-6  Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him and He will make your paths straight.

                                          
CLICK HERE ---->My New Blog
segell
Hero
*****

Manna: 225
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 4179


segell

Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #132 on: December 15, 2008, 07:09:35 AM »
Quote from: Jaime on December 14, 2008, 09:45:18 PM
I respectfully disagree Steve. I believe he is talking about false teachers that HAD BEEN Christians. This is an age old argument that I admit will not be swayed by my words. I just believe in my heart the word of God teaches the possibility of apostasy, and warns repeatedly of such. But it doesn't cause me to consider you less of a brother. And it makes me and others like me no less of a victorious Christian.

Very well stated, Jaime.
Logged
Ephesians 2:8-10  Who saves, how He saves, why He saves.

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
Christian Forums
« Reply #132 on: December 15, 2008, 07:09:35 AM »
 Logged
Jimmy
Legendary Member
******

Manna: 158
Offline Offline

Mood:

Posts: 5305

Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #133 on: December 15, 2008, 07:18:10 AM »
Quote from: segell on December 15, 2008, 07:09:35 AM
Quote from: Jaime on December 14, 2008, 09:45:18 PM
I respectfully disagree Steve. I believe he is talking about false teachers that HAD BEEN Christians. This is an age old argument that I admit will not be swayed by my words. I just believe in my heart the word of God teaches the possibility of apostasy, and warns repeatedly of such. But it doesn't cause me to consider you less of a brother. And it makes me and others like me no less of a victorious Christian.

Very well stated, Jaime.

Do you think it is very well stated because you like the way he said it or because you agree with what he said or maybe both?
Logged
segell
Hero
*****

Manna: 225
Offline Offline

Mood:

Gender: Male
Posts: 4179


segell

Blog entries (0)

View Profile
« Reply #134 on: December 15, 2008, 09:50:24 AM »
Quote from: Jimmy on December 15, 2008, 07:18:10 AM
Quote from: segell on December 15, 2008, 07:09:35 AM
Quote from: Jaime on December 14, 2008, 09:45:18 PM
I respectfully disagree Steve. I believe he is talking about false teachers that HAD BEEN Christians. This is an age old argument that I admit will not be swayed by my words. I just believe in my heart the word of God teaches the possibility of apostasy, and warns repeatedly of such. But it doesn't cause me to consider you less of a brother. And it makes me and others like me no less of a victorious Christian.

Very well stated, Jaime.

Do you think it is very well stated because you like the way he said it or because you agree with what he said or maybe both?

Both.  Jaime states his opinion with respect without the need to belittle or comment derisively on another's opinion.  He doesn't elevate his view by stepping on anothers.  He also understands our brotherhood in Christ Jesus.  This is the kind of discussion that sharpens one another, unlike the exchanges we have had, I'm afraid and ashamed to say. 
Logged
Ephesians 2:8-10  Who saves, how He saves, why He saves.

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
Christian Forums
   
 Logged
The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist? - Pages: 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 [9] 10 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  



Login with username, password and session length

Grace-Centered Christian Forums
Bible concordance | abortion ticker | is God real? | galaga | play tetris | copter game | mini golf games | arcade | donkey kong | Christian marriage help | articles | privacy
Powered by SMF | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC