I misspoke in part.  I agreed with the way Jaime expressed himself, Jimmy.  And I agreed with his statements about our brotherhood.  We have differing opinions and he and I expressed them previously.

Hi James.  Hope all is well.  Thanks for your question.  I think the answer lies not only in this chapter but in how the Scriptures describe false teachers.  My quick response to your question is this: those false teachers that come from within the church never were transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit.  Their hearts never surrendered to the Lordship of Christ.  They may have tasted of His teachings, may have partaken in worship and work, may have boldly declared their belief - but in the final analysis, look how Peter, Paul and others describe them. 

Further, because there were false teachers in Israel, there will be false teachers from within the church - not outside so that they would be easily identified, but from within wearing sheep's clothing while underneath is a wolf lurking.  Jude  is a good parallel read. 

James, I think some of the marks of a false teacher are pride and self-concern, greed, flaunters of sin.  While they might appear to have been followers of Christ they were not.  They have no godly remorse.  They are devoid of any fruit of the Spirit. 

I could go on about these false teachers.  They are dangerous and they exist today and they come from within the Church.  They have been taught the Way and have rejected it but hide in the confines of the church for self-serving purposes and the fulfillment of their senuous desires. 

Do I think they were ever true believers whose hearts were transformed radically by the power of the Holy Spirit?  No.  There is no evidence of that to me, James. 

Here's a link to a study on 2 Peter 2 that I like:

http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=1738

James, merry Christmas to you and your family.

Steve

 

I hear what you are saying, James.  I begin by resting in the belief that the transforming work of the Holy Spirit is permanent.  I also believe that in light of what is written in Jude, 2 Peter and some other passages of Scripture including the Old Testament that "escaping the corruption" could be finding harbor within the church and that there are many - in our churches today - that have been introduced to the Lord and that the mysteries of God have been made known to them and yet their hearts have not been penetrated by the life changing power of the Holy Spirit.  That would be my explanation. 

Otherwise, I would have to believe that the transforming work of God is not sufficient and not truly transforming. 

James,

Help me understand.  How can something be transforming by God and yet, apparently unfinished.  Who, having been transformed and being sealed with the Holy Spirit, would by choice walk away. What I would find baffling is that God's work, His perfect work which He says He completes, would  not in essence be finished or complete. 

I don't think it is a non sequitur, James.  There are too many references in Scripture that tell me differently.  I don't think a transformed person would ever exercise his/her will to walk away.  I think the exercise of the will would be to cling to the only One who gives Life.

I suppose a study of transformation and what that means would be worthwhile, too.

Jimmy,

This is what I know.  Man is sinful.  Man's condition sets himself apart from God.  Man chose sin.  All of us did.  I know you disagree, but I believe man has, in essence, rejected God.  As a result we all stand condemned.  We all have a fatal condition.  A heart in rebellion to God.  A selfish and evil heart. 

So, what does God transform in us? It's our hearts toward Him!  And that is done by the power of His Spirit and, in fact, we are sealed by His Spirit.  You may call that being a robot.  I call it being saved and having my salvation assured by the work of God in me by and through His Grace. 

I think our differences begins in not having a mutual understanding of our condition before God.  At least that's what it seems to me.

What I find so interesting is the fact that those who put forth the claim of the sovereignty of God....will fight against what God says to do, with their own will-power.

They who claim that the sovereignty of God is ALL-POWERFUL, as to supersede the will of men, are the very people who will use their own will, to refuse to do what God says to do in the Bible.


I have had people who claim the sovereignty of God, flat out reject certain commandments from God, as they say: "We don't have to do that anymore"

Most interesting !