Author Topic: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?  (Read 33548 times)

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Offline Jimmy

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #70 on: Thu Dec 04, 2008 - 10:34:17 »
 According to what has been presented here again and again one is spiritually dead before being born again, and unable to even hear the word or seek God.  What were they doing there listening to Peter?  Acts 1:15 said there were some 120 there.  How could they even do that if they had not yet been reborn?  Did God first choose them and then the went to listen to Peter and the other apostles.  Or did they actually seek God before Peter spoke to them?  Did they come to listen to Peter apart from Christ?  Was that before or after they had been reborn.  Honestly, you talk in circles.



Well, I'm not dizzy from "talking in circles".  By the way, those who were there that day were not there by accident but by Sovereign design.  Just like your birth into a Christian family.  You gave thanks or credit to your parents for your salvation, but in reality, it is God who gave you to your parents and placed you in that loving environment.  It wasn't by accident or coincidence. 

Then by that reasoning, all who have rejected Christ have done so by Sovereign design.  When Saul, later called Paul, persecuted and killed Christians, he did so by Sovereign design.

By that reasoning then, when Ananias and Sapphira lied to the Holy Spirit (Acts 5), they lied by Sovereign design.

By that reasoning, when Eve ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge, even though God told her not to, it was by Sovereign design that she ate the fruit.

When Israel, as a nation, turned from God to idols, even though God told them not too, they must have turned to idols by Sovereigh design.

By that reasoning, all the evil that men to, they do by Sovereign design.

You have a really nasty view of God.  I really feel sorry for you.

So, how do you think you were born again?  As a result of what you did or the result of what God did?

You see, that is a part of your problem.  You see it as an either/or situation.  It is not.

Offline Hobbit

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #71 on: Thu Dec 04, 2008 - 11:06:56 »
Dan 4:35 "All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
But He does according to His will in the host of heaven
And among the inhabitants of earth;
And no one can ward off His hand
Or say to Him, 'What have You done?'

Ps 115:3 But our God is in the heavens;
He does whatever He pleases.

Offline Harold

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #72 on: Thu Dec 04, 2008 - 11:11:57 »
Dan 4:35 "All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
But He does according to His will in the host of heaven
And among the inhabitants of earth;
And no one can ward off His hand
Or say to Him, 'What have You done?'

Ps 115:3 But our God is in the heavens;
He does whatever He pleases.


Show me where the character of God causes anyone to sin. If God causes you to sin then He could not judge you for sin, after all He is a Just God.

FTL

Offline Hobbit

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #73 on: Thu Dec 04, 2008 - 11:28:34 »
Dan 4:35 "All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
But He does according to His will in the host of heaven
And among the inhabitants of earth;
And no one can ward off His hand
Or say to Him, 'What have You done?'

Ps 115:3 But our God is in the heavens;
He does whatever He pleases.


Show me where the character of God causes anyone to sin. If God causes you to sin then He could not judge you for sin, after all He is a Just God.

FTL
EZEK 38

Offline segell

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #74 on: Thu Dec 04, 2008 - 13:55:28 »
 According to what has been presented here again and again one is spiritually dead before being born again, and unable to even hear the word or seek God.  What were they doing there listening to Peter?  Acts 1:15 said there were some 120 there.  How could they even do that if they had not yet been reborn?  Did God first choose them and then the went to listen to Peter and the other apostles.  Or did they actually seek God before Peter spoke to them?  Did they come to listen to Peter apart from Christ?  Was that before or after they had been reborn.  Honestly, you talk in circles.



Well, I'm not dizzy from "talking in circles".  By the way, those who were there that day were not there by accident but by Sovereign design.  Just like your birth into a Christian family.  You gave thanks or credit to your parents for your salvation, but in reality, it is God who gave you to your parents and placed you in that loving environment.  It wasn't by accident or coincidence. 

Then by that reasoning, all who have rejected Christ have done so by Sovereign design.  When Saul, later called Paul, persecuted and killed Christians, he did so by Sovereign design.

By that reasoning then, when Ananias and Sapphira lied to the Holy Spirit (Acts 5), they lied by Sovereign design.

By that reasoning, when Eve ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge, even though God told her not to, it was by Sovereign design that she ate the fruit.

When Israel, as a nation, turned from God to idols, even though God told them not too, they must have turned to idols by Sovereigh design.

By that reasoning, all the evil that men to, they do by Sovereign design.

You have a really nasty view of God.  I really feel sorry for you.

So, how do you think you were born again?  As a result of what you did or the result of what God did?

You see, that is a part of your problem.  You see it as an either/or situation.  It is not.

Poppycock, Jimmy.  There you go with your mischaracterization!!  You really are a hoot.  We were talking about the 120 individuals - 120 believers.  I think your point would be better served by asking about the 3000 in the next chapter.

By the way, I did take notice how you sidestepped the personal issue of being born again.  If you think you could contribute to that, then you're reading the Bible much differently than me.  Jesus said we must be born from above.  What do you suppose that means?



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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #74 on: Thu Dec 04, 2008 - 13:55:28 »



Offline Jimmy

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #75 on: Thu Dec 04, 2008 - 15:30:00 »
 According to what has been presented here again and again one is spiritually dead before being born again, and unable to even hear the word or seek God.  What were they doing there listening to Peter?  Acts 1:15 said there were some 120 there.  How could they even do that if they had not yet been reborn?  Did God first choose them and then the went to listen to Peter and the other apostles.  Or did they actually seek God before Peter spoke to them?  Did they come to listen to Peter apart from Christ?  Was that before or after they had been reborn.  Honestly, you talk in circles.



Well, I'm not dizzy from "talking in circles".  By the way, those who were there that day were not there by accident but by Sovereign design.  Just like your birth into a Christian family.  You gave thanks or credit to your parents for your salvation, but in reality, it is God who gave you to your parents and placed you in that loving environment.  It wasn't by accident or coincidence. 

Then by that reasoning, all who have rejected Christ have done so by Sovereign design.  When Saul, later called Paul, persecuted and killed Christians, he did so by Sovereign design.

By that reasoning then, when Ananias and Sapphira lied to the Holy Spirit (Acts 5), they lied by Sovereign design.

By that reasoning, when Eve ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge, even though God told her not to, it was by Sovereign design that she ate the fruit.

When Israel, as a nation, turned from God to idols, even though God told them not too, they must have turned to idols by Sovereigh design.

By that reasoning, all the evil that men to, they do by Sovereign design.

You have a really nasty view of God.  I really feel sorry for you.

So, how do you think you were born again?  As a result of what you did or the result of what God did?

You see, that is a part of your problem.  You see it as an either/or situation.  It is not.

Poppycock, Jimmy.  There you go with your mischaracterization!!  You really are a hoot.  We were talking about the 120 individuals - 120 believers.  I think your point would be better served by asking about the 3000 in the next chapter.

By the way, I did take notice how you sidestepped the personal issue of being born again.  If you think you could contribute to that, then you're reading the Bible much differently than me.  Jesus said we must be born from above.  What do you suppose that means?

What mischaracterization???!!!  All I did was to take your statement about Sovereign design to its rational end.

But one thing and about the only thing that you have said that I can agree with is

   "....you're reading the Bible much differently than me"

Of that I am quite certain.

Offline segell

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #76 on: Thu Dec 04, 2008 - 21:59:20 »
Well, Jimmy, I'm sorry to see you stoop so low in your rationizing.  It is quite ugly and a deliberate mischaracterization.  A "nasty" view of God, huh? I just don't like the very cramped box you place God in.  Such a tiny box, that you can't even praise Him for your salvation.  Why? 

Offline Jimmy

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #77 on: Fri Dec 05, 2008 - 06:36:41 »
Well, Jimmy, I'm sorry to see you stoop so low in your rationizing.  It is quite ugly and a deliberate mischaracterization.  A "nasty" view of God, huh? I just don't like the very cramped box you place God in.  Such a tiny box, that you can't even praise Him for your salvation.  Why? 

segell,  it is your mischaracterization.  It was you who said that nothing about me (us) is accident or coincident; but rather everything is by Sovereign design.  You are the one who has put God in a box.  You have limited God's ability to create as He sees fit.  You deny Him the ability to create man in His own image and give man the ability to choose.  That is your box.  I impose no such limitations.  If it is by Sovereign design who is saved, then it is by Sovereign design who is lost.  Now that is your box.  I impose no such boundaries.  I do not charge God with the selection of those who are lost.  You do.  

Of course I praise God for my salvation.  I praise God that His word has been made available to me.  I praise God that I have been able to read and understand that word enough to know that He has required something of me.  I praise God that His Spirit worked in my life to bring me to an understanding that I needed to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of my sins and I praise God that He has given me the Holy Spirit as a constant companion and helper through indwelling me personally.

But you segell, for all your claims to praise God for your salvation, I perceive that you praise God mostly that you are not like all those others whom you think He did not choose.  Yes such a nasty view of God.  Keep one or two of the puppies that you like and drown the rest of the litter.  We arrest breeders who do that to dogs.  But that is your view of God.

Offline Hobbit

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #78 on: Fri Dec 05, 2008 - 09:40:40 »
Well, Jimmy, I'm sorry to see you stoop so low in your rationizing.  It is quite ugly and a deliberate mischaracterization.  A "nasty" view of God, huh? I just don't like the very cramped box you place God in.  Such a tiny box, that you can't even praise Him for your salvation.  Why? 

segell,  it is your mischaracterization.  It was you who said that nothing about me (us) is accident or coincident; but rather everything is by Sovereign design.  You are the one who has put God in a box.  You have limited God's ability to create as He sees fit.  You deny Him the ability to create man in His own image and give man the ability to choose.  That is your box.  I impose no such limitations.  If it is by Sovereign design who is saved, then it is by Sovereign design who is lost.  Now that is your box.  I impose no such boundaries.  I do not charge God with the selection of those who are lost.  You do.  

Of course I praise God for my salvation.  I praise God that His word has been made available to me.  I praise God that I have been able to read and understand that word enough to know that He has required something of me.  I praise God that His Spirit worked in my life to bring me to an understanding that I needed to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of my sins and I praise God that He has given me the Holy Spirit as a constant companion and helper through indwelling me personally.

But you segell, for all your claims to praise God for your salvation, I perceive that you praise God mostly that you are not like all those others whom you think He did not choose.  Yes such a nasty view of God.  Keep one or two of the puppies that you like and drown the rest of the litter.  We arrest breeders who do that to dogs.  But that is your view of God.
How different is the God of the Bible from the God of modern Christendom! The conception of Deity which prevails most widely today, even among those who profess to give heed to the Scriptures, is a miserable caricature, a blasphemous travesty of the Truth. The God of the twentieth century is a helpless, effeminate being who commands the respect of no really thoughtful man. The God of the popular mind is the creation of maudlin sentimentality. The God of many a present-day pulpit is an object of pity rather than of awe-inspiring reverence. To say that God the Father has purposed the salvation of all mankind, that God the Son died with the express intention of saving the whole human race, and that God the Holy Spirit is now seeking to win the world to Christ; when, as a matter of common observation, it is apparent that the great majority of our fellowmen are dying in sin, and passing into a hopeless eternity; is to say that God the Father is disappointed, that God the Son is dissatisfied, and that God the Holy Spirit is defeated. We have stated the issue baldly, but there is no escaping the conclusion. To argue that God is "trying His best" to save all mankind, but that the majority of men will not let Him save them, is to insist that the will of the Creator is impotent, and that the will of the creature is omnipotent. To throw the blame, as many do, upon the Devil, does not remove the difficulty, for if Satan is defeating the purpose of God, then, Satan is Almighty and God is no longer the Supreme Being. (AW. PINK)


Offline Jimmy

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #79 on: Fri Dec 05, 2008 - 10:08:20 »
Well, Jimmy, I'm sorry to see you stoop so low in your rationizing.  It is quite ugly and a deliberate mischaracterization.  A "nasty" view of God, huh? I just don't like the very cramped box you place God in.  Such a tiny box, that you can't even praise Him for your salvation.  Why? 

segell,  it is your mischaracterization.  It was you who said that nothing about me (us) is accident or coincident; but rather everything is by Sovereign design.  You are the one who has put God in a box.  You have limited God's ability to create as He sees fit.  You deny Him the ability to create man in His own image and give man the ability to choose.  That is your box.  I impose no such limitations.  If it is by Sovereign design who is saved, then it is by Sovereign design who is lost.  Now that is your box.  I impose no such boundaries.  I do not charge God with the selection of those who are lost.  You do.  

Of course I praise God for my salvation.  I praise God that His word has been made available to me.  I praise God that I have been able to read and understand that word enough to know that He has required something of me.  I praise God that His Spirit worked in my life to bring me to an understanding that I needed to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of my sins and I praise God that He has given me the Holy Spirit as a constant companion and helper through indwelling me personally.

But you segell, for all your claims to praise God for your salvation, I perceive that you praise God mostly that you are not like all those others whom you think He did not choose.  Yes such a nasty view of God.  Keep one or two of the puppies that you like and drown the rest of the litter.  We arrest breeders who do that to dogs.  But that is your view of God.
How different is the God of the Bible from the God of modern Christendom! The conception of Deity which prevails most widely today, even among those who profess to give heed to the Scriptures, is a miserable caricature, a blasphemous travesty of the Truth. The God of the twentieth century is a helpless, effeminate being who commands the respect of no really thoughtful man. The God of the popular mind is the creation of maudlin sentimentality. The God of many a present-day pulpit is an object of pity rather than of awe-inspiring reverence. To say that God the Father has purposed the salvation of all mankind, that God the Son died with the express intention of saving the whole human race, and that God the Holy Spirit is now seeking to win the world to Christ; when, as a matter of common observation, it is apparent that the great majority of our fellowmen are dying in sin, and passing into a hopeless eternity; is to say that God the Father is disappointed, that God the Son is dissatisfied, and that God the Holy Spirit is defeated. We have stated the issue baldly, but there is no escaping the conclusion. To argue that God is "trying His best" to save all mankind, but that the majority of men will not let Him save them, is to insist that the will of the Creator is impotent, and that the will of the creature is omnipotent. To throw the blame, as many do, upon the Devil, does not remove the difficulty, for if Satan is defeating the purpose of God, then, Satan is Almighty and God is no longer the Supreme Being. (AW. PINK)


Please correct the above quotation.  There is a bunch of gibberish in there that you have falsely credited to me.  I would appreciate it if you would clear it up.

Offline Hobbit

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #80 on: Fri Dec 05, 2008 - 10:48:22 »
Well, Jimmy, I'm sorry to see you stoop so low in your rationizing.  It is quite ugly and a deliberate mischaracterization.  A "nasty" view of God, huh? I just don't like the very cramped box you place God in.  Such a tiny box, that you can't even praise Him for your salvation.  Why? 

segell,  it is your mischaracterization.  It was you who said that nothing about me (us) is accident or coincident; but rather everything is by Sovereign design.  You are the one who has put God in a box.  You have limited God's ability to create as He sees fit.  You deny Him the ability to create man in His own image and give man the ability to choose.  That is your box.  I impose no such limitations.  If it is by Sovereign design who is saved, then it is by Sovereign design who is lost.  Now that is your box.  I impose no such boundaries.  I do not charge God with the selection of those who are lost.  You do.  

Of course I praise God for my salvation.  I praise God that His word has been made available to me.  I praise God that I have been able to read and understand that word enough to know that He has required something of me.  I praise God that His Spirit worked in my life to bring me to an understanding that I needed to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of my sins and I praise God that He has given me the Holy Spirit as a constant companion and helper through indwelling me personally.

But you segell, for all your claims to praise God for your salvation, I perceive that you praise God mostly that you are not like all those others whom you think He did not choose.  Yes such a nasty view of God.  Keep one or two of the puppies that you like and drown the rest of the litter.  We arrest breeders who do that to dogs.  But that is your view of God.
Well, Jimmy, I'm sorry to see you stoop so low in your rationizing.  It is quite ugly and a deliberate mischaracterization.  A "nasty" view of God, huh? I just don't like the very cramped box you place God in.  Such a tiny box, that you can't even praise Him for your salvation.  Why? 

segell,  it is your mischaracterization.  It was you who said that nothing about me (us) is accident or coincident; but rather everything is by Sovereign design.  You are the one who has put God in a box.  You have limited God's ability to create as He sees fit.  You deny Him the ability to create man in His own image and give man the ability to choose.  That is your box.  I impose no such limitations.  If it is by Sovereign design who is saved, then it is by Sovereign design who is lost.  Now that is your box.  I impose no such boundaries.  I do not charge God with the selection of those who are lost.  You do.  

Of course I praise God for my salvation.  I praise God that His word has been made available to me.  I praise God that I have been able to read and understand that word enough to know that He has required something of me.  I praise God that His Spirit worked in my life to bring me to an understanding that I needed to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of my sins and I praise God that He has given me the Holy Spirit as a constant companion and helper through indwelling me personally.

But you segell, for all your claims to praise God for your salvation, I perceive that you praise God mostly that you are not like all those others whom you think He did not choose.  Yes such a nasty view of God.  Keep one or two of the puppies that you like and drown the rest of the litter.  We arrest breeders who do that to dogs.  But that is your view of God.
How different is the God of the Bible from the God of modern Christendom! The conception of Deity which prevails most widely today, even among those who profess to give heed to the Scriptures, is a miserable caricature, a blasphemous travesty of the Truth. The God of the twentieth century is a helpless, effeminate being who commands the respect of no really thoughtful man. The God of the popular mind is the creation of maudlin sentimentality. The God of many a present-day pulpit is an object of pity rather than of awe-inspiring reverence. To say that God the Father has purposed the salvation of all mankind, that God the Son died with the express intention of saving the whole human race, and that God the Holy Spirit is now seeking to win the world to Christ; when, as a matter of common observation, it is apparent that the great majority of our fellowmen are dying in sin, and passing into a hopeless eternity; is to say that God the Father is disappointed, that God the Son is dissatisfied, and that God the Holy Spirit is defeated. We have stated the issue baldly, but there is no escaping the conclusion. To argue that God is "trying His best" to save all mankind, but that the majority of men will not let Him save them, is to insist that the will of the Creator is impotent, and that the will of the creature is omnipotent. To throw the blame, as many do, upon the Devil, does not remove the difficulty, for if Satan is defeating the purpose of God, then, Satan is Almighty and God is no longer the Supreme Being. (AW. PINK)


Please correct the above quotation.  There is a bunch of gibberish in there that you have falsely credited to me.  I would appreciate it if you would clear it up.
How different is the God of the Bible from the God of modern Christendom! The conception of Deity which prevails most widely today, even among those who profess to give heed to the Scriptures, is a miserable caricature, a blasphemous travesty of the Truth. The God of the twentieth century is a helpless, effeminate being who commands the respect of no really thoughtful man. The God of the popular mind is the creation of maudlin sentimentality. The God of many a present-day pulpit is an object of pity rather than of awe-inspiring reverence. To say that God the Father has purposed the salvation of all mankind, that God the Son died with the express intention of saving the whole human race, and that God the Holy Spirit is now seeking to win the world to Christ; when, as a matter of common observation, it is apparent that the great majority of our fellowmen are dying in sin, and passing into a hopeless eternity; is to say that God the Father is disappointed, that God the Son is dissatisfied, and that God the Holy Spirit is defeated. We have stated the issue baldly, but there is no escaping the conclusion. To argue that God is "trying His best" to save all mankind, but that the majority of men will not let Him save them, is to insist that the will of the Creator is impotent, and that the will of the creature is omnipotent. To throw the blame, as many do, upon the Devil, does not remove the difficulty, for if Satan is defeating the purpose of God, then, Satan is Almighty and God is no longer the Supreme Being. (AW. PINK)


Please correct the above quotation.  There is a bunch of gibberish in there that you have falsely credited to me.  I would appreciate it if you would clear it up.
[/quote]

Offline Jimmy

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #81 on: Fri Dec 05, 2008 - 11:06:52 »
It just gets worse.  Oh well. C'est la vie.

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #82 on: Fri Dec 05, 2008 - 11:22:51 »
Well, Jimmy, I'm sorry to see you stoop so low in your rationizing.  It is quite ugly and a deliberate mischaracterization.  A "nasty" view of God, huh? I just don't like the very cramped box you place God in.  Such a tiny box, that you can't even praise Him for your salvation.  Why? 

segell,  it is your mischaracterization.  It was you who said that nothing about me (us) is accident or coincident; but rather everything is by Sovereign design.  You are the one who has put God in a box.  You have limited God's ability to create as He sees fit.  You deny Him the ability to create man in His own image and give man the ability to choose.  That is your box.  I impose no such limitations.  If it is by Sovereign design who is saved, then it is by Sovereign design who is lost.  Now that is your box.  I impose no such boundaries.  I do not charge God with the selection of those who are lost.  You do.  

Of course I praise God for my salvation.  I praise God that His word has been made available to me.  I praise God that I have been able to read and understand that word enough to know that He has required something of me.  I praise God that His Spirit worked in my life to bring me to an understanding that I needed to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of my sins and I praise God that He has given me the Holy Spirit as a constant companion and helper through indwelling me personally.

But you segell, for all your claims to praise God for your salvation, I perceive that you praise God mostly that you are not like all those others whom you think He did not choose.  Yes such a nasty view of God.  Keep one or two of the puppies that you like and drown the rest of the litter.  We arrest breeders who do that to dogs.  But that is your view of God.


You need to read a bit more carefully, it seems to me, Jimmy.  I said your birth and your parents were not by coincidence and a result of God's sovereign choice.  I didn't go on into the other angles and tangents that your response took.  It was a very direct comment about the 120, the 3,000 and you and your birth.

Quote
If it is by Sovereign design who is saved, then it is by Sovereign design who is lost.

Sorry, Jimmy.  Not so.  However, before man fell, God's plan for redemption was already in place.  How do you explain that?  Did God create us just to fall?  It seems with your logic, that if God does one thing, then He must also cause the opposite to occur.  I don't believe that.  I believe that we have sinned and that our condition from when we have been redeemed is a lot worse in the sight of God than we can possibly imagine.  There has been a great Rescue, Jimmy.  The issue is from what have we truly been saved.

Quote
Of course I praise God for my salvation.  I praise God that His word has been made available to me.  I praise God that I have been able to read and understand that word enough to know that He has required something of me.  I praise God that His Spirit worked in my life to bring me to an understanding that I needed to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of my sins and I praise God that He has given me the Holy Spirit as a constant companion and helper through indwelling me personally.

Thank you for sharing your praises, Jimmy.  I think this is the first time I have read any praises from you (not that I have read all your posts and I could certainly have missed something along the line there).  I also am pleased that you give God's Spirit credit for your ability to understand, but you fall short of giving Him credit for piercing your heart with His Truth enabling you to respond to Him.  That's all I have ever said, really.  And I am glad to know that you have the assurance of salvation by the fact that His Spirit lives in you.  But, curiously, I have not seen you praise Him for Jesus, for the provisions we have in Christ Jesus, for His righteousness, for His blood.  I just keep missing Jesus' name.  And I wonder why He isn't first off your lips so to speak.  

Quote
But you segell, for all your claims to praise God for your salvation, I perceive that you praise God mostly that you are not like all those others whom you think He did not choose.  Yes such a nasty view of God.  Keep one or two of the puppies that you like and drown the rest of the litter.  We arrest breeders who do that to dogs.  But that is your view of God.

And that is pure poppycock and again a terrible mischaracterization of what I believe about myself and my Lord and Savior.  Why oh why do you insist on such drivel?  Because you don't understand?  If you truly understood, Jimmy, Jesus Christ would be the One you were praising first and foremost for your Salvation.  He would be the One who humbles the heart, convicting us of the depth of our sin and wretched condition before a Holy and Almighty God.  And our testimony wouldn't be about what we were able to do, but all about what Jesus did in His perfect, saving obedience. Jesus said that a person forgiven little, loves little, Jimmy.  It's the depth of my sin and the love of my Savior that humbles me  not the ugly, proud and boastful distortion you would want others to think is the case.  


Offline Hobbit

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #83 on: Fri Dec 05, 2008 - 11:26:16 »
Sorry Jimmy,
I hope you don't think that I did anything on purpose. I would never falsely represent your words. It was a mistake, and I will do my best not to mess up like that  again.

Hobbit

Offline Jimmy

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #84 on: Fri Dec 05, 2008 - 12:30:14 »
Sorry Jimmy,
I hope you don't think that I did anything on purpose. I would never falsely represent your words. It was a mistake, and I will do my best not to mess up like that  again.

Hobbit

That is ok.  I do that all the time and then have to go back and fix it.  That is why I try to always preview it before I post.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #85 on: Fri Dec 05, 2008 - 13:16:33 »
My response in red
Well, Jimmy, I'm sorry to see you stoop so low in your rationizing.  It is quite ugly and a deliberate mischaracterization.  A "nasty" view of God, huh? I just don't like the very cramped box you place God in.  Such a tiny box, that you can't even praise Him for your salvation.  Why? 

segell,  it is your mischaracterization.  It was you who said that nothing about me (us) is accident or coincident; but rather everything is by Sovereign design.  You are the one who has put God in a box.  You have limited God's ability to create as He sees fit.  You deny Him the ability to create man in His own image and give man the ability to choose.  That is your box.  I impose no such limitations.  If it is by Sovereign design who is saved, then it is by Sovereign design who is lost.  Now that is your box.  I impose no such boundaries.  I do not charge God with the selection of those who are lost.  You do.  

Of course I praise God for my salvation.  I praise God that His word has been made available to me.  I praise God that I have been able to read and understand that word enough to know that He has required something of me.  I praise God that His Spirit worked in my life to bring me to an understanding that I needed to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of my sins and I praise God that He has given me the Holy Spirit as a constant companion and helper through indwelling me personally.

But you segell, for all your claims to praise God for your salvation, I perceive that you praise God mostly that you are not like all those others whom you think He did not choose.  Yes such a nasty view of God.  Keep one or two of the puppies that you like and drown the rest of the litter.  We arrest breeders who do that to dogs.  But that is your view of God.


You need to read a bit more carefully, it seems to me, Jimmy.  I said your birth and your parents were not by coincidence and a result of God's sovereign choice.  I didn't go on into the other angles and tangents that your response took.  It was a very direct comment about the 120, the 3,000 and you and your birth.


You have a very interesting practice of deciding on an ad hoc basis what is God's sovereign choice and what is not.  And as near as I can determine none of it is supported by scripture.  No you didn't go into the other angles and tangents; they are there by default.   You can't deny them.  One implies the other.

Quote
If it is by Sovereign design who is saved, then it is by Sovereign design who is lost.

Sorry, Jimmy.  Not so.  However, before man fell, God's plan for redemption was already in place.  How do you explain that?  Did God create us just to fall?  It seems with your logic, that if God does one thing, then He must also cause the opposite to occur.  I don't believe that.  I believe that we have sinned and that our condition from when we have been redeemed is a lot worse in the sight of God than we can possibly imagine.  There has been a great Rescue, Jimmy.  The issue is from what have we truly been saved.

Sorry segell, you can't have one without the other.  If God elects those who are saved totally apart from anything that the saved had done, then by process of elimination God also elects those who are lost.  It simply can not be any other way.  I know you guys like to deny "double predestination"  but you can't.

No God did not create us just to fall.  And He did not cause us to fall either.  And He did not impute to us a fallen condition on the basis of anything that Adam did.  segell, you fell.  You made some choices and some of them were wrong.  You cannot blame either Adam or God for your blunders.  

There really is no issue concerning from what we have been saved.  We have been saved from the wrath of God.  A wrath that comes by the Holiness of God.


Quote
Of course I praise God for my salvation.  I praise God that His word has been made available to me.  I praise God that I have been able to read and understand that word enough to know that He has required something of me.  I praise God that His Spirit worked in my life to bring me to an understanding that I needed to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of my sins and I praise God that He has given me the Holy Spirit as a constant companion and helper through indwelling me personally.

Thank you for sharing your praises, Jimmy.  I think this is the first time I have read any praises from you (not that I have read all your posts and I could certainly have missed something along the line there).  I also am pleased that you give God's Spirit credit for your ability to understand, but you fall short of giving Him credit for piercing your heart with His Truth enabling you to respond to Him.  That's all I have ever said, really.  And I am glad to know that you have the assurance of salvation by the fact that His Spirit lives in you.  But, curiously, I have not seen you praise Him for Jesus, for the provisions we have in Christ Jesus, for His righteousness, for His blood.  I just keep missing Jesus' name.  And I wonder why He isn't first off your lips so to speak.

You do have some rather legalistic requirements about how others praise God don't you.  If it isn't done just as you would do it, it must be wrong.  A piousness that sticks out like a sore thumb.


Quote
But you segell, for all your claims to praise God for your salvation, I perceive that you praise God mostly that you are not like all those others whom you think He did not choose.  Yes such a nasty view of God.  Keep one or two of the puppies that you like and drown the rest of the litter.  We arrest breeders who do that to dogs.  But that is your view of God.

And that is pure poppycock and again a terrible mischaracterization of what I believe about myself and my Lord and Savior.  Why oh why do you insist on such drivel?  Because you don't understand?  If you truly understood, Jimmy, Jesus Christ would be the One you were praising first and foremost for your Salvation.  He would be the One who humbles the heart, convicting us of the depth of our sin and wretched condition before a Holy and Almighty God.  And our testimony wouldn't be about what we were able to do, but all about what Jesus did in His perfect, saving obedience. Jesus said that a person forgiven little, loves little, Jimmy.  It's the depth of my sin and the love of my Savior that humbles me  not the ugly, proud and boastful distortion you would want others to think is the case.  

It is not drivel.  That is how you define the actions of God.  Deny it if you wish but as I said above, you can't have it both ways. segell, it is not so much you personally, rather it is the theology that you subscribe to that presents the ugly, proud and boastful position of the elect.  You have no reason for why you have been selected; you just know it. When push comes to shove, you can't even affirm that you have been selected; you just feel it.  


Offline segell

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #86 on: Fri Dec 05, 2008 - 15:00:18 »
My response in red
Well, Jimmy, I'm sorry to see you stoop so low in your rationizing.  It is quite ugly and a deliberate mischaracterization.  A "nasty" view of God, huh? I just don't like the very cramped box you place God in.  Such a tiny box, that you can't even praise Him for your salvation.  Why? 

segell,  it is your mischaracterization.  It was you who said that nothing about me (us) is accident or coincident; but rather everything is by Sovereign design.  You are the one who has put God in a box.  You have limited God's ability to create as He sees fit.  You deny Him the ability to create man in His own image and give man the ability to choose.  That is your box.  I impose no such limitations.  If it is by Sovereign design who is saved, then it is by Sovereign design who is lost.  Now that is your box.  I impose no such boundaries.  I do not charge God with the selection of those who are lost.  You do.  

Of course I praise God for my salvation.  I praise God that His word has been made available to me.  I praise God that I have been able to read and understand that word enough to know that He has required something of me.  I praise God that His Spirit worked in my life to bring me to an understanding that I needed to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of my sins and I praise God that He has given me the Holy Spirit as a constant companion and helper through indwelling me personally.

But you segell, for all your claims to praise God for your salvation, I perceive that you praise God mostly that you are not like all those others whom you think He did not choose.  Yes such a nasty view of God.  Keep one or two of the puppies that you like and drown the rest of the litter.  We arrest breeders who do that to dogs.  But that is your view of God.


You need to read a bit more carefully, it seems to me, Jimmy.  I said your birth and your parents were not by coincidence and a result of God's sovereign choice.  I didn't go on into the other angles and tangents that your response took.  It was a very direct comment about the 120, the 3,000 and you and your birth.


You have a very interesting practice of deciding on an ad hoc basis what is God's sovereign choice and what is not.  And as near as I can determine none of it is supported by scripture.  No you didn't go into the other angles and tangents; they are there by default.   You can't deny them.  One implies the other.

Quote
If it is by Sovereign design who is saved, then it is by Sovereign design who is lost.

Sorry, Jimmy.  Not so.  However, before man fell, God's plan for redemption was already in place.  How do you explain that?  Did God create us just to fall?  It seems with your logic, that if God does one thing, then He must also cause the opposite to occur.  I don't believe that.  I believe that we have sinned and that our condition from when we have been redeemed is a lot worse in the sight of God than we can possibly imagine.  There has been a great Rescue, Jimmy.  The issue is from what have we truly been saved.

Sorry segell, you can't have one without the other.  If God elects those who are saved totally apart from anything that the saved had done, then by process of elimination God also elects those who are lost.  It simply can not be any other way.  I know you guys like to deny "double predestination"  but you can't.

No God did not create us just to fall.  And He did not cause us to fall either.  And He did not impute to us a fallen condition on the basis of anything that Adam did.  segell, you fell.  You made some choices and some of them were wrong.  You cannot blame either Adam or God for your blunders.  

There really is no issue concerning from what we have been saved.  We have been saved from the wrath of God.  A wrath that comes by the Holiness of God.


Quote
Of course I praise God for my salvation.  I praise God that His word has been made available to me.  I praise God that I have been able to read and understand that word enough to know that He has required something of me.  I praise God that His Spirit worked in my life to bring me to an understanding that I needed to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of my sins and I praise God that He has given me the Holy Spirit as a constant companion and helper through indwelling me personally.

Thank you for sharing your praises, Jimmy.  I think this is the first time I have read any praises from you (not that I have read all your posts and I could certainly have missed something along the line there).  I also am pleased that you give God's Spirit credit for your ability to understand, but you fall short of giving Him credit for piercing your heart with His Truth enabling you to respond to Him.  That's all I have ever said, really.  And I am glad to know that you have the assurance of salvation by the fact that His Spirit lives in you.  But, curiously, I have not seen you praise Him for Jesus, for the provisions we have in Christ Jesus, for His righteousness, for His blood.  I just keep missing Jesus' name.  And I wonder why He isn't first off your lips so to speak.

You do have some rather legalistic requirements about how others praise God don't you.  If it isn't done just as you would do it, it must be wrong.  A piousness that sticks out like a sore thumb.


Quote
But you segell, for all your claims to praise God for your salvation, I perceive that you praise God mostly that you are not like all those others whom you think He did not choose.  Yes such a nasty view of God.  Keep one or two of the puppies that you like and drown the rest of the litter.  We arrest breeders who do that to dogs.  But that is your view of God.

And that is pure poppycock and again a terrible mischaracterization of what I believe about myself and my Lord and Savior.  Why oh why do you insist on such drivel?  Because you don't understand?  If you truly understood, Jimmy, Jesus Christ would be the One you were praising first and foremost for your Salvation.  He would be the One who humbles the heart, convicting us of the depth of our sin and wretched condition before a Holy and Almighty God.  And our testimony wouldn't be about what we were able to do, but all about what Jesus did in His perfect, saving obedience. Jesus said that a person forgiven little, loves little, Jimmy.  It's the depth of my sin and the love of my Savior that humbles me  not the ugly, proud and boastful distortion you would want others to think is the case.  

It is not drivel.  That is how you define the actions of God.  Deny it if you wish but as I said above, you can't have it both ways. segell, it is not so much you personally, rather it is the theology that you subscribe to that presents the ugly, proud and boastful position of the elect.  You have no reason for why you have been selected; you just know it. When push comes to shove, you can't even affirm that you have been selected; you just feel it.  


You have no idea what you are talking about, Jimmy.  Same old junk being spewed.  I'm glad you know you are saved by what you did.  It might go a bit against what John said to us about our assuredness.  That it is by the Spirit in us.  And what does that Spirit declare Jimmy?  That Jesus is the focus, the Lord our righteousness to the glory of the Father.   

No piousness by the way, Jimmy.  The Bible declares that Jesus is Lord.  Our testimony should shout out about Him.  Look at Paul, Peter, Stephen, Timothy, John.  Who do they speak of?  And I notice the absence of His name in your story.  No piousness.  Just wondering why.

Offline zoonance

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #87 on: Fri Dec 05, 2008 - 15:30:32 »
What is the difference between the fatalism and sovereignty?  How about also in terms of how nonchristians and christians view life from these two terms?

Offline Jimmy

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #88 on: Fri Dec 05, 2008 - 16:37:19 »

You have no idea what you are talking about, Jimmy. 

Well in that case I guess you and I have a lot more in commone than I thought.


I'm glad you know you are saved by what you did. 

Yes, I trust what Jesus, Peter, Paul and the rest said would happen when I believed. Do you need the Scripture references to any of that?  I would be happy to give it to you although I think you know what it is, you just don't seem to know what it means.


No piousness by the way, Jimmy.  The Bible declares that Jesus is Lord.  Our testimony should shout out about Him. 

The greatest testimony is to believe and obey. Jesus said to His disciples,

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. (John 14:15)

and

9  "Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.
10  "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love.(John 15)


Even though these were spoken to His disciples, I think that we are well positioned if we accept them for ourselves also.

Offline segell

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #89 on: Fri Dec 05, 2008 - 17:41:51 »

You have no idea what you are talking about, Jimmy. 

Well in that case I guess you and I have a lot more in commone than I thought.


I'm glad you know you are saved by what you did. 

Yes, I trust what Jesus, Peter, Paul and the rest said would happen when I believed. Do you need the Scripture references to any of that?  I would be happy to give it to you although I think you know what it is, you just don't seem to know what it means.


No piousness by the way, Jimmy.  The Bible declares that Jesus is Lord.  Our testimony should shout out about Him. 

The greatest testimony is to believe and obey. Jesus said to His disciples,

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. (John 14:15)

and

9  "Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.
10  "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love.(John 15)


Even though these were spoken to His disciples, I think that we are well positioned if we accept them for ourselves also.


The greatest testimony is to believe and obey????  No wonder Christ isn't anywhere to be found.  I wonder why Paul only preached Christ Jesus and Him crucified.  Anyway.....

 ::beatingdeadhorse::

I'm done.  Just keep that focus on yourself.
« Last Edit: Fri Dec 05, 2008 - 17:59:49 by segell »

Offline zoonance

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #90 on: Fri Dec 05, 2008 - 17:45:20 »
The focus is on oneself with either camp when it deteriorates to winning an argument.

Offline segell

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #91 on: Fri Dec 05, 2008 - 17:49:47 »
The focus is on oneself with either camp when it deteriorates to winning an argument.

I agree about the deterioration.

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #92 on: Sat Dec 06, 2008 - 11:32:17 »
What is the difference between the fatalism and sovereignty?  How about also in terms of how nonchristians and christians view life from these two terms?

GO TOhttp://www.reformationtheology.com/2006/04/isnt_divine_predestination_and.php

GOD BLESS
HOBBIT

Offline Harold

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #93 on: Sat Dec 06, 2008 - 11:48:04 »
Dan 4:35 "All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
But He does according to His will in the host of heaven
And among the inhabitants of earth;
And no one can ward off His hand
Or say to Him, 'What have You done?'

Ps 115:3 But our God is in the heavens;
He does whatever He pleases.


Show me where the character of God causes anyone to sin. If God causes you to sin then He could not judge you for sin, after all He is a Just God.

FTL
EZEK 38

 ???

Offline Hobbit

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #94 on: Mon Dec 08, 2008 - 10:04:14 »
You are overlooking the fact that(by nature) we are all sinners. That apart from grace we can do nothing but sin! God is not the author of sin, however, He does use our sinfullness to fullfill His purpose.

Gen 50:20 "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.

Acts 4:25 who by the Holy Spirit, through the mouth of our father David Your servant, said,
'WHY DID THE GENTILES RAGE,
AND THE PEOPLES DEVISE FUTILE THINGS?
  Acts 4:26 'THE KINGS OF THE EARTH TOOK THEIR STAND,
AND THE RULERS WERE GATHERED TOGETHER
AGAINST THE LORD AND AGAINST HIS CHRIST.'
 Acts 4:27 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
 Acts 4:28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.


 
 







Offline Harold

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #95 on: Mon Dec 08, 2008 - 14:44:07 »
You are overlooking the fact that(by nature) we are all sinners. That apart from grace we can do nothing but sin! God is not the author of sin, however, He does use our sinfullness to fullfill His purpose.

Gen 50:20 "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.

Acts 4:25 who by the Holy Spirit, through the mouth of our father David Your servant, said,
'WHY DID THE GENTILES RAGE,
AND THE PEOPLES DEVISE FUTILE THINGS? A
  Acts 4:26 'THE KINGS OF THE EARTH TOOK THEIR STAND,
AND THE RULERS WERE GATHERED TOGETHER
AGAINST THE LORD AND AGAINST HIS CHRIST.'
 Acts 4:27 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
 Acts 4:28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.


It says Pilot sinned, he chose to do that. God in His foreknowledge knew that.

You use man-made theology to make the Bible say what you want it to say. Without it, your theology falls apart. Pilot sinned to please himself and others. God did not make him sin, God knew he would sin.

FTL

Offline Hobbit

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #96 on: Tue Dec 09, 2008 - 09:14:21 »
My theology is founded on SCRIPTURE ALONE.
My desire is for God to recive ALL the glory!

Offline Hobbit

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #97 on: Tue Dec 09, 2008 - 12:54:27 »
Acts 4:28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #98 on: Tue Dec 09, 2008 - 14:33:37 »
Foreknowledge is not predeterminism. Jesus came to die on the cross, because God's Word said so; so it would happen without God having to make anyone sin. If Pilot, or the Jews had a choice then God did not force them to do anything.

Was Pilot given a chance to not kill Jesus?

FTL

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #99 on: Tue Dec 09, 2008 - 15:16:35 »
Foreknowledge is not predeterminism. Jesus came to die on the cross, because God's Word said so; so it would happen without God having to make anyone sin. If Pilot, or the Jews had a choice then God did not force them to do anything.

Was Pilot given a chance to not kill Jesus?

FTL
Yeah, though it would have caused a riot...which would have resulted in a loss of his job...and possibly his execution.

Offline James Rondon

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #100 on: Tue Dec 09, 2008 - 17:50:44 »
This passage has probably been brought up already on this thread. Even so, I thought that it would be worthwhile to post it again. It addresses the matter of the sovereignty of God - not only the words in the passage itself, but the context and the events which preceded them, and proceeded from them:

"And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation: And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" (Daniel 4:34-35)

Offline JerryW

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #101 on: Tue Dec 09, 2008 - 20:59:17 »
Foreknowledge is not predeterminism. Jesus came to die on the cross, because God's Word said so; so it would happen without God having to make anyone sin. If Pilot, or the Jews had a choice then God did not force them to do anything.

Was Pilot given a chance to not kill Jesus?

FTL
This passage has probably been brought up already on this thread. Even so, I thought that it would be worthwhile to post it again. It addresses the matter of the sovereignty of God - not only the words in the passage itself, but the context and the events which preceded them, and proceeded from them:

"And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation: And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" (Daniel 4:34-35)
Foreknowledge is not predeterminism. Jesus came to die on the cross, because God's Word said so; so it would happen without God having to make anyone sin. If Pilot, or the Jews had a choice then God did not force them to do anything.

Was Pilot given a chance to not kill Jesus?

FTL
Pilot had no choice in the matter.  Christ came to earth to die for the sins of his people. Surely somebody had to put him to death!  Lets read Act 2:23 "This man was handed over to you by GOD"S  set purpose and foreknowledge, and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross." Yes, it might appear that Pilot had a choice, but God is controlling the affairs of this universe with his supernatural power which cannot be seen by human eyes.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #102 on: Wed Dec 10, 2008 - 05:55:00 »
Foreknowledge is not predeterminism. Jesus came to die on the cross, because God's Word said so; so it would happen without God having to make anyone sin. If Pilot, or the Jews had a choice then God did not force them to do anything.

Was Pilot given a chance to not kill Jesus?

FTL
This passage has probably been brought up already on this thread. Even so, I thought that it would be worthwhile to post it again. It addresses the matter of the sovereignty of God - not only the words in the passage itself, but the context and the events which preceded them, and proceeded from them:

"And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation: And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" (Daniel 4:34-35)
Foreknowledge is not predeterminism. Jesus came to die on the cross, because God's Word said so; so it would happen without God having to make anyone sin. If Pilot, or the Jews had a choice then God did not force them to do anything.

Was Pilot given a chance to not kill Jesus?

FTL
Pilot had no choice in the matter.  Christ came to earth to die for the sins of his people. Surely somebody had to put him to death!  Lets read Act 2:23 "This man was handed over to you by GOD"S  set purpose and foreknowledge, and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross." Yes, it might appear that Pilot had a choice, but God is controlling the affairs of this universe with his supernatural power which cannot be seen by human eyes.

Your conclusion here leaves no alternative.  If what you are saying is true, then it was God who killed Jesus.  That is the only way it could be.  Once you remove the free will of man, then everything, even the most heinous that we can imagine, are caused by God not by man.

BornToReign

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #103 on: Wed Dec 10, 2008 - 09:54:45 »
"And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation: And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" (Daniel 4:34-35)


The heavens are the heavens of the Lord, but the earth He has given to the sons of men. Psa.115:16

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: The Sovereignty of God and the Free Will of Man - Can they coexist?
« Reply #104 on: Wed Dec 10, 2008 - 12:52:17 »
This passage has probably been brought up already on this thread. Even so, I thought that it would be worthwhile to post it again. It addresses the matter of the sovereignty of God - not only the words in the passage itself, but the context and the events which preceded them, and proceeded from them:

"And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation: And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" (Daniel 4:34-35)
I read it as history.  In other words, just because its recorded doesn't mean that Nebuchadnezzar is entirely accurate in what he says.  And certainly doesn't mean that he's framing theology.  Nor would he be the first choice to do so, I think.

It's kind of like what people do when they quote Ecclesiastes authoritatively, and forget that it's the writing of Solomon during a time when he's basically an apostate.

 

     
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