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Author Topic: 1Corinthians 14:22+  (Read 452 times)

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Offline Winnie

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1Corinthians 14:22+
« on: November 10, 2016, 06:33:43 AM »
So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe. 23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and [k]ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad? 24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an [l]ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; 25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.


Why is this passage sounding contradictory? 
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 09:05:52 AM by Nevertheless »

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1Corinthians 14:22+
« on: November 10, 2016, 06:33:43 AM »

Offline Tertullian

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Re: 1Chorinthians 14 22+
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2016, 10:18:21 AM »
So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe. 23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and [k]ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad? 24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an [l]ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; 25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.


Why is this passage sounding contradictory?

First, a declaration, Pentecostals and the Assemblies of God Church, turn First Corinthians upside down.  Paul is arguing against the use of unknown tongues.  At no point in this chapter does Paul support speaking to God in a language no man understands (the opinions of those with reading comprehension problems not withstanding).

Understand, Paul is not arguing against tongues, but against unknown tongues.  If someone speaks in tongues, there should be someone there who understands what's being said.  And, even then, it should be limited to no more than two or three people speaking in tongues, v27.

Now, look at verse 23a, "If the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues."  See there, it's not tongues per se, it's everyone is speaking in tongues.  It's charismatic chaos that Paul rightly and understandably says 23b "unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?"  DUH!!!! This is an objection to lots of people speaking in tongues, especially, presumably, if those tongues go untranslated.

If the service is orderly and an unbeliever sees someone really speaking in tongues (not gibberish) and that is interpreted, then the unbeliever will be impressed and see that God is at work.  Christians know God is at work and don't need signs to know it.  So then, tongues is a sign for unbelievers, not for believers. 






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Re: 1Chorinthians 14 22+
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2016, 10:18:21 AM »

Offline NorrinRadd

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Re: 1Chorinthians 14 22+
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2016, 10:26:27 AM »
So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe. 23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and [k]ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad? 24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an [l]ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; 25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.


Why is this passage sounding contradictory?

From the IVP Bible Background Commentary on 14:21-25:


Effects on Visitors of Intelligible and Unintelligible Speech

14:21. Here Paul quotes Isaiah 28:11, which in context refers to a sign of judgment; because his people could hear nothing else, God would speak to them through the Assyrians (cf. 33:19; Deut 28:49). (Many Jewish teachers used “ law ” loosely to refer to anything in the Old Testament; later it was even applied to earlier Jewish traditions.)

14:22. On one view, Paul here refers to tongues as a sign of judgment that causes nonbelievers to stumble (cf. 14:21); on another, Paul quotes the Corinthians in 14:22 and refutes them in 14:23–25 (cf. 6:12–14).

14:23–25. Prophecy was a known phenomenon in the ancient world, whereas tongues was not (or at least, its parallels were extremely rare); ancients respected prophecy, but if they did not know beforehand to expect speaking in tongues, they would not know what was happening (cf. Acts 2:13). Perhaps Paul would not object to a whole group simultaneously worshiping charismatically under other circumstances (e.g., Acts 2:4–21), such as if they were by themselves (cf. 1 Sam 10:5; 19:20); but these are not the circumstances of the Corinthian house churches

Offline NorrinRadd

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Re: 1Chorinthians 14 22+
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2016, 10:32:10 AM »
So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe. 23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and [k]ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad? 24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an [l]ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; 25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.


Why is this passage sounding contradictory?

First, a declaration, Pentecostals and the Assemblies of God Church, turn First Corinthians upside down.  Paul is arguing against the use of unknown tongues.  At no point in this chapter does Paul support speaking to God in a language no man understands (the opinions of those with reading comprehension problems not withstanding).

 rofl Always amusing when some pseudo-intellectual dismisses out of hand scholars such as Gordon Fee, Craig Keener, Wayne Grudem, Ben Witherington, NT Wright, Krister Stendahl, I.H. Marshall...

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Re: 1Chorinthians 14 22+
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2016, 10:32:10 AM »

Offline Tertullian

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Re: 1Chorinthians 14 22+
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2016, 10:42:44 AM »

 rofl Always amusing when some pseudo-intellectual dismisses out of hand scholars such as Gordon Fee, Craig Keener, Wayne Grudem, Ben Witherington, NT Wright, Krister Stendahl, I.H. Marshall...

My declaration that Paul objects to the use of unknown tongues is important to answer the question of the OP.  In short, the use of unknown tongues will make outsiders think you're crazy.  But, the use of known tongues will impress outsiders.

Why bother throwing names of alleged scholars at each other when we can read what Paul says ourselves, in a good English translation, and apply some honest reasoning to what he says?  The appeal to experts, when the evidence is available for us to examine ourselves, is a resort of someone in error.  You're in error, and you act like someone in error.

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Re: 1Chorinthians 14 22+
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2016, 10:42:44 AM »



Offline NorrinRadd

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Re: 1Chorinthians 14 22+
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2016, 02:59:42 PM »

 rofl Always amusing when some pseudo-intellectual dismisses out of hand scholars such as Gordon Fee, Craig Keener, Wayne Grudem, Ben Witherington, NT Wright, Krister Stendahl, I.H. Marshall...

My declaration that Paul objects to the use of unknown tongues is important to answer the question of the OP.  In short, the use of unknown tongues will make outsiders think you're crazy.  But, the use of known tongues will impress outsiders.

Why bother throwing names of alleged scholars at each other when we can read what Paul says ourselves, in a good English translation, and apply some honest reasoning to what he says?  The appeal to experts, when the evidence is available for us to examine ourselves, is a resort of someone in error.  You're in error, and you act like someone in error.

 rofl Always amusing when some pseudo-intellectual considers any citation of those who are experts in a field under discussion as a fallacious appeal to authority.

Sadly, you are demonstrating the very thing you derided, viz., "reading comprehension problems."  As should be clear from the context, my citation of respected NT scholars of widely varied affiliation was meant as a push-back against that specific insult of yours.  I trust that even someone like you will be charitable enough to forgive me for not bothering to highlight that specific portion of your quote for added clarity.

As to the rest of your point, I agree that the text is understandable apart from the input of such experts as I cited.  I find it clearly supports the practice of praying and praising in unknown languages.  It places some limits on the practice, but given that such restrictions were of no concern elsewhere in the NT, those limits should be viewed as useful pragmatic suggestions for situations analogous to that at Corinth, not as universal rules.

Offline Tertullian

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Re: 1Chorinthians 14 22+
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2016, 06:29:29 PM »
rofl Always amusing when some pseudo-intellectual considers any citation of those who are experts in a field under discussion as a fallacious appeal to authority.

What did I say that makes you think I think of myself as an intellectual?  You must think something I said is very smart.  Thank you. Did I accuse you of a "fallacious appeal to authority"?  If I had used such language, I would have really sounded like a pseudo-intellectual. 

Who's the first guy on your list?  Gordon Fee.  Wow, an Assemblies of God minister!   AoG puts the pseudo in pseudo-intellectual.  How about a relevant quote from him?  Maybe he agrees with me.  I don't expect him to agree with me because he's an AoG minister, his other credentials are irrelevant.

If you wish to make what you suppose is a non-fallacious appeal to authority, then provide their testimony here. All you've done is drop names without establishing their position and most importantl their explanations.  Then what happens if I provide counter list?  But, again, why should we engage in your pseudo-intellectual games when we can just read scripture for ourselves?  Do you concede to the need to appeal to the reading comprehension of another? Why don't you start a new thread to examine specially what you're disagreeing with me about, considering that's is only tangential to the topic here. 

Quote
As to the rest of your point, I agree that the text is understandable apart from the input of such experts as I cited.  I find it clearly supports the practice of praying and praising in unknown languages.  It places some limits on the practice, but given that such restrictions were of no concern elsewhere in the NT, those limits should be viewed as useful pragmatic suggestions for situations analogous to that at Corinth, not as universal rules.

You take verses out of context and then read into those verses what they don't say.

Offline ClicknClock

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Re: 1Chorinthians 14 22+
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2016, 09:32:30 AM »
Because none of God's prophets and saints spoke in tongues. That idea came from Satan and the Beast that influenced man to build false gods with their human hands. Pagan worshipers loved to chant in various tongues thinking they were speaking to their gods which were the star constellations they got their building shapes from according to the Beast.

Offline Winnie

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Re: 1Chorinthians 14 22+
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2016, 04:40:08 AM »
 Any aog attenders out there ?  ::help::

Seriously.  I believe prophecy and tongues are for today.  I occasionally pray in the spirit via tongues myself.   
So I am looking for somebody who believes that that can answer my question.   
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 04:44:25 AM by Winnie »

Offline Winnie

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Re: 1Corinthians 14:22+
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2016, 04:50:29 AM »
So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe. 23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and [k]ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad? 24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an [l]ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; 25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.


Why is this passage sounding contradictory?

First, a declaration, Pentecostals and the Assemblies of God Church, turn First Corinthians upside down.  Paul is arguing against the use of unknown tongues.  At no point in this chapter does Paul support speaking to God in a language no man understands (the opinions of those with reading comprehension problems not withstanding).

Understand, Paul is not arguing against tongues, but against unknown tongues.  If someone speaks in tongues, there should be someone there who understands what's being said.  And, even then, it should be limited to no more than two or three people speaking in tongues, v27.

Now, look at verse 23a, "If the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues."  See there, it's not tongues per se, it's everyone is speaking in tongues.  It's charismatic chaos that Paul rightly and understandably says 23b "unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?"  DUH!!!! This is an objection to lots of people speaking in tongues, especially, presumably, if those tongues go untranslated.

If the service is orderly and an unbeliever sees someone really speaking in tongues (not gibberish) and that is interpreted, then the unbeliever will be impressed and see that God is at work.  Christians know God is at work and don't need signs to know it.  So then, tongues is a sign for unbelievers, not for believers.


I will have to read this more carefully, it is too early to try to make heads or tails out of it.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 09:06:29 AM by Nevertheless »