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Offline new creature

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #490 on: Thu Oct 18, 2012 - 07:42:44 »
Mark 1:8
 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
 
 Titus 3:5
 according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
 
 That´s the baptism that saves.
 
 Mark 16:16
 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
 
 That´s why it also makes sense in this context;
 It doesn´t speak of people that believe and are not baptized, the distinction is in believing and not believing.
 

“John baptized with water, but before many days you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit." (Acts 1:5)
 
Jesus was speaking to the apostles. Are you suggesting that the apostles were not saved until Pentecost?
You´re a Catholic right? I thought you guys didn´t believe in being saved, but that salvation is an ongoing proces until death?

So I´d love to hear your definition of when somebody is saved.

I think your question is a trick question; I´m not going to indulge.

Let me ask you though, do you believe after the apostles nobody was baptized with the Holy Ghost?


Quote
Holy Spirit baptism does not save us. Nowhere does scripture say that.
You quote many scriptures to ´prove´ baptism saves.

Clearly John the Baptist announced that Jesus would baptize us with the Holy Ghost.

In all these scriptures you posted, I never once read the word water.
 
Quote
Both Titus 3:5 and Mark 16:16 are referring to baptism with water.
So according to you there are people who believe but are still condemned?
Contradicting John 3:18.
« Last Edit: Thu Oct 18, 2012 - 07:45:33 by new creature »

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #490 on: Thu Oct 18, 2012 - 07:42:44 »

Offline chosenone

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #491 on: Thu Oct 18, 2012 - 08:09:28 »
We are saved at the moment of conversion. If we died after that time but before we were baptised, we would go to heaven. A believers baptism is the OUTWARD sign of wehat has already happened INSIDE. Was the thief on the cross baptised?

Offline winsome

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #492 on: Thu Oct 18, 2012 - 08:56:11 »
 
 
  Mark 1:8
  I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
 
  Titus 3:5
  according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
 
  That´s the baptism that saves.
 
  Mark 16:16
  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
 
  That´s why it also makes sense in this context;
  It doesn´t speak of people that believe and are not baptized, the distinction is in believing and not believing.
 
 
 “John baptized with water, but before many days you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit." (Acts 1:5)
 
 Jesus was speaking to the apostles. Are you suggesting that the apostles were not saved until Pentecost?
 

 You´re a Catholic right? I thought you guys didn´t believe in being saved, but that salvation is an ongoing proces until death?
 
 So I´d love to hear your definition of when somebody is saved.

 
Catholic theology uses the term justified rather than saved. So we are initially justified (saved) but justification is ongoing with final justification being our entry into heaven.
 
We can say- I have been saved; I am being saved; I hope to be saved.
 
I’m not going further into that, firstly because I don’t have time (I’m going on holiday in a few days) and secondly because it’s a side issue. If you want to know more you could ask in the Catholic Forum.

 
I think your question is a trick question; I´m not going to indulge.

It’s not a trick question.   

Let me ask you though, do you believe after the apostles nobody was baptized with the Holy Ghost?

Cornelius was.
 
 
Quote
Holy Spirit baptism does not save us. Nowhere does scripture say that.
You quote many scriptures to ´prove´ baptism saves.
 
 Clearly John the Baptist announced that Jesus would baptize us with the Holy Ghost.
 
 In all these scriptures you posted, I never once read the word water.

Jesus baptised with water.
Peter baptised with water
Philip baptised with water
Paul baptised with water.
 
Baptism with water was the default. It’s what baptism was.
 
Baptism with the Holy Spirit is a metaphor for an outpouring of the Holy Spirit. It is a promise of the Father (Lk 24:49 &Acts 1:4) whereas baptism with water is commanded by Jesus (Mt 28:19)
 
Quote
Both Titus 3:5 and Mark 16:16 are referring to baptism with water.
So according to you there are people who believe but are still condemned?
 Contradicting John 3:18.
 

The questions of what happens to people who believe but are not baptised is left open.
 
Baptism is commanded by Jesus.

A question - can those who claim to believe but refuse to be baptised be truly said to believe. You have to walk the walk not just talk the talk.
 

Offline winsome

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #493 on: Thu Oct 18, 2012 - 08:59:57 »
We are saved at the moment of conversion. If we died after that time but before we were baptised, we would go to heaven. A believers baptism is the OUTWARD sign of wehat has already happened INSIDE.

Wrong and I've been though all that with Lively Stone. The posts are there for you to read.

She couldn't provide scriptures to prove that either.

Was the thief on the cross baptised?

The thief on the cross was pre-death of Christ and pre-resurrection.

Baptism hadn't been mandated then. The New Covenant was not enacted until Jesus died.

Offline winsome

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #494 on: Thu Oct 18, 2012 - 09:29:40 »
Baptism is symbolic – Yes I agree. But it is not symbolic of the waters of the flood.

It says Baptism corresponds to or is like the flood. It is like the flood because the water symbolises the cleansing cleanses us of sin and evil like the flood cleansed the earth of sin and evil.

Baptism is symbolic in that it symbolises what God is doing to us there and then, not previously.

It is symbolic of the earth, where Jesus was once buried in death and from which He arose to life. It symbolizes death, from which we are saved.

It’s symbolic of several things, of descending into death with Christ, of rising to new life with Christ and of being cleansed and purified from sin.
 
 
Quote
Baptism is a symbolic external cleansing that symbolises the internal cleansing and renewal the God is doing spiritually.

That is why Peter says “not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ”

That is why Peter says
Repent and be baptised, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. (Acts 2:38)

this is why baptism is for only those who have already experienced an encounter with the resurrected Jesus Christ and can stand before Him with that clear conscience and make such a declaration in baptism!

There is nothing in the text to say that. You have just made it that up.
 
Our sins are forgiven in baptism. That is what the water symbolises – the cleansing action.
Get up and have yourself baptised and your sins washed away, calling upon his name. (Acts 22:16).


The sins being washed away is concurrent with baptism not pre-dating baptism


Quote
I agree the new life in Christ is not created in us by our own actions, neither by our profession of faith nor by baptism. I have never said it is.

The new life is created in us by the Holy Spirit. But the Holy Spirit does that when we are baptised.

No. He does that when we first believe.

No he does not and you have provided no scriptures that show it.
“..he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.” (Titus 3:5)
 The renewal happens in baptism not before.
 
 
You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. And even when you were dead (in) transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he brought you to life along with him, having forgiven us all our transgressions; (Col 2:11-13)
In this scripture you have both the new life and forgiveness of sins. And it all happens in baptism just as the scripture says.
 
 

Quote
This fact is found to be true in Colossians 2:12 where we read that we are “Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with (him)…” Does this mean we are thereby saved by baptism?? No, it does not, as we find in 1 Peter 3:21. Curiously, this very same text is used as a proof text by those who claim baptism saves!


Of course it is a proof text because that is what it is.
 
The full symbolism of baptism is shown in full immersion baptism as in the early days.
 
The candidate would go down into the water, symbolising going down into the tomb, into death with Jesus. Then the candidate would come up out of the water, symbolising rising to new life with Christ in the resurrection.

Precisely. All symbolic. The spiritual work of God's grace is already done beforehand.
#
 
Nowhere does it say it is done beforehand.
You just make that up.
You have no scripture that says that.
 
You don’t spend time symbolising what has already happened some time before.
 
Baptism is a core teaching of Paul.
Now I am reminding you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you indeed received and in which you also stand. Through it you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I handed on to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures; that he was buried; that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures. (1Cor 15:1-4).
This is Paul’s basic proclamation of the gospel.

Now what does he say in Rom 6:3-4?
Or are you unaware that we who were baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life. For if we have grown into union with him through a death like his, we shall also be united with him in the resurrection. (vs 1-5)
Paul links baptism to his core teaching, to the death and resurrection of Christ.
 
 
Quote
Unfortunately your so-called Spirit led teachers have led you astray.

Scripture overwhelmingly shows that in baptism we are saved, renewed and our sins are forgiven.

No they have not, and I praise God for His blessing. God's grace saves the moment we first believe by faith. Our sins are forgiven and we are renewed immediately. Baptism simply symbolizes to the world that work done in us already.

You have no scriptures that say that. Just repeating that opinion does not make it true

I have many scriptures that declare that baptism saves us.
 
You just cannot bear to believe scriptures that contradict your opinions.

 
 

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #494 on: Thu Oct 18, 2012 - 09:29:40 »



Lively Stone

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #495 on: Thu Oct 18, 2012 - 11:16:10 »
We are saved at the moment of conversion. If we died after that time but before we were baptised, we would go to heaven. A believers baptism is the OUTWARD sign of wehat has already happened INSIDE.

Wrong and I've been though all that with Lively Stone. The posts are there for you to read.

She couldn't provide scriptures to prove that either.

Was the thief on the cross baptised?

The thief on the cross was pre-death of Christ and pre-resurrection.

Baptism hadn't been mandated then. The New Covenant was not enacted until Jesus died.

You have been given scriptures that attest to the truth about water baptism.

Many Christians never let the Bible get in the way of what they believe.

A recent Barna Survey reveals that for the first time, most Americans now depend upon their own logic, tradition, or experience to formulate beliefs. Few actually take the Word of God as the basis of their beliefs. The result is what Jesus spoke about in Mark 7:13:

“Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition.”

Lively Stone

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #496 on: Thu Oct 18, 2012 - 11:39:05 »
Repent and be baptised, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. (Acts 2:38)
 
This is why baptism is for only those who have already experienced an encounter with the resurrected Jesus Christ and can stand before Him with that clear conscience and make such a declaration in baptism!

There is nothing in the text to say that. You have just made it that up.

Fabrication isn't what I do. Peter calling people to repentance is addressing sinners. Baptism is for those who have already repented and received forgiveness is symbolic of what has just gone on in the heart of the individual. A spiritual sealing to Holy Spirit's work is the result.
 
Quote
Our sins are forgiven in baptism. That is what the water symbolises – the cleansing action.
Get up and have yourself baptised and your sins washed away, calling upon his name. (Acts 22:16).


The sins being washed away is concurrent with baptism not pre-dating baptism

Now you are making stuff up.


Quote
The renewal happens in baptism not before.

More fabrication from you. The renewal happens whether one is baptized or not, because salvation is a work that is done by God in the heart of a person. We cannot do anything to receive it.
 
Quote
You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. And even when you were dead (in) transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he brought you to life along with him, having forgiven us all our transgressions; (Col 2:11-13)
In this scripture you have both the new life and forgiveness of sins. And it all happens in baptism just as the scripture says.

It is a wonderful symbolic representation of what has gone on in the heart of the believer.
 
You have no scripture that says that baptism is where we receive our salvation. We receive our salvation when we BELIEVE, according to John 3:16, but don't let me stop you from believing whatever you wish. Those who come to faith and BELIEVE, then need to choose to obey God in being baptized. A sinner is not invited.
 

Quote
Baptism is a core teaching of Paul.

Yet he says this:

1 Corinthians 1:17
For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel,

Quote
I have many scriptures that declare that baptism saves us.

No, you keep using the isolated verses that teach what you think is right, yet it is contrary to the whole message of scripture.
 

Offline winsome

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #497 on: Thu Oct 18, 2012 - 13:10:12 »
 
Repent and be baptised, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. (Acts 2:38)
 
 This is why baptism is for only those who have already experienced an encounter with the resurrected Jesus Christ and can stand before Him with that clear conscience and make such a declaration in baptism!
 
 There is nothing in the text to say that. You have just made it that up.

 Fabrication isn't what I do. Peter calling people to repentance is addressing sinners. Baptism is for those who have already repented and received forgiveness is symbolic of what has just gone on in the heart of the individual. A spiritual sealing to Holy Spirit's work is the result.

Peter says
Repent and be baptised, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. (Acts 2:38)
 They need to repent
They need to be baptised
Then their sins will be forgiven
 
Very clear. Peter cannot be referring to sins being already forgiven because they haven’t repented yet.
 
They have to both repent and be baptised and then their sins will be forgiven.
 
You seem to have trouble understanding the word “and”. It means both actions are necessary for the following action to happen
 
Repent and be baptised – sins will be forgiven
 
He who believes and is baptized  - will be saved”

 
Quote
Our sins are forgiven in baptism. That is what the water symbolises – the cleansing action.
 Get up and have yourself baptised and your sins washed away, calling upon his name. (Acts 22:16).
 
 
 The sins being washed away is concurrent with baptism not pre-dating baptism

 Now you are making stuff up.

No, that is what scripture says.
 
 
Quote
The renewal happens in baptism not before.

 More fabrication from you. The renewal happens whether one is baptized or not, because salvation is a work that is done by God in the heart of a person. We cannot do anything to receive it.

Yes we can and scripture tells us what we must do
 
“He who believes and is baptized will be saved” (Mk 16:16)

   
Quote
You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. And even when you were dead (in) transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he brought you to life along with him, having forgiven us all our transgressions; (Col 2:11-13)
 In this scripture you have both the new life and forgiveness of sins. And it all happens in baptism just as the scripture says.

 It is a wonderful symbolic representation of what has gone on in the heart of the believer.
 
 You have no scripture that says that baptism is where we receive our salvation. We receive our salvation when we BELIEVE, according to John 3:16, but don't let me stop you from believing whatever you wish. Those who come to faith and BELIEVE, then need to choose to obey God in being baptized. A sinner is not invited.

Then according to you scripture contradicts itself because Jesus says
“He who believes and is baptized will be saved”

Peter says
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you,

Baptism……now saves you


You see you are taking one verse out of the whole context of scripture. John 3:16 doesn’t say that belief is the only thing necessary. It is the start. It’s a pre-requisite. But there is more.
 
Single statements in scripture do not necessarily give a complete picture.
You have to look at them all.
 
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, - doesn’t mention belief or repentance

if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (Rom 10:9)  - doesn’t mention repentance
 
Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Rom 10:13 & (Acts 2:21) – doesn’t mention belief of repentance or baptism or professing with lips.
 
The one who believes and is baptised will be saved; (Mk 16;16) - doesn’t mention confessing with your lips or repentance
 
Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved (Acts 16:31) – no mention of confessing with your lips or baptism (yet Paul immediately had the jailer & family baptised)
 
There are four things listed here:
repent
believe
express belief (confess with your mouth/call on the name of the Lord)
be baptised.

When someone comes for baptism in a Catholic Church all these things are done.

 
Here are more verses about baptism and salvation:
In Acts 2:41 we learn: Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand persons were added that day. Added to what? Well, added to the Church, added to those saved as it tells us in verse 47: And every day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved.

Nowhere does it say baptism  " is a wonderful symbolic representation of what has gone on in the heart of the believer."
If it does please show me the verse.
 
 
Quote
Baptism is a core teaching of Paul.

 Yet he says this:
 
 1 Corinthians 1:17
 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel,

There are different ministries
 
Paul preached the gospel and then others did the baptising. Paul is not saying that baptism is wrong. He is saying that it wasn’t necessary for him to do the baptising.
 
When the Holy Spirit fell on Cornelius and his household Peter immediately says (acts 10):
47 "Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
 
Note that – he commanded them to be baptised. He didn’t have to do it himself. He too was sent to preach the gospel. 

Yet he had them baptised immediately.



 
Quote
I have many scriptures that declare that baptism saves us.

 No, you keep using the isolated verses that teach what you think is right, yet it is contrary to the whole message of scripture.
 

They are not contrary to the whole message of scripture. They are contrary to your false doctrines. I have used many scriptures and they are consistent with all of scripure.
 
I’ve posted this before and you ignored it:
Just before his ascension into heaven Jesus gives some final instruction to his apostles. As these were his final instruction to them they must have been very important.

“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Mt 28:19)
 
“He who believes and is baptized will be saved” (Mk 16:16)
 
Jesus is emphasising the importance of two things – belief and baptism. In Mt 28:19 faith is implicit in the making of disciples.

In the Acts of the apostles these two go together. When someone comes to believe in Jesus they are either immediately, or very soon, baptised.

This is true of
Paul (Acts 9:1-18)
The Samaritans (Acts 8:1-13)
The Ethiopian (Acts 8:26-38)
Acts Cornelius and his household (10:44-48)
Lydia and her household (Acts 16:13-16)
The jailer (Acts 16:30-33)
The twelve at Ephesus (Acts 19:1-5)
 
 
 
One question that could be asked is - why are both of these required? Why two things?
 
Have you thought about that?
 
 There is an answer.. 
« Last Edit: Thu Oct 18, 2012 - 13:18:07 by winsome »

Lively Stone

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #498 on: Thu Oct 18, 2012 - 13:37:31 »
In the Acts of the apostles these two go together. When someone comes to believe in Jesus they are either immediately, or very soon, baptised.

This is true of
Paul (Acts 9:1-18)
The Samaritans (Acts 8:1-13)
The Ethiopian (Acts 8:26-38)
Acts Cornelius and his household (10:44-48)
Lydia and her household (Acts 16:13-16)
The jailer (Acts 16:30-33)
The twelve at Ephesus (Acts 19:1-5)
 
 
 
One question that could be asked is - why are both of these required? Why two things?
 
Have you thought about that?

Have you? It is because once we are saved, the Lord calls us to obey Him and be baptized. Holy Spirit seals us in Christ, and we receive His anointing over our lives, just as Jesus did when He was baptized.
 

Offline winsome

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #499 on: Thu Oct 18, 2012 - 15:24:56 »
 Lively Stone,
 
You accuse me of taking a few isolated verses.
 
Here are verses that relate to baptism and show, directly or indirectly, that baptism saves us.
 
 
Verses that explicitly say baptism save us:
 
1. Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved (Mk 16:16)

2. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, (1Pet 3:21)
 
3. Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand persons were added that day. ……. And every day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved. (Acts 2:41….47)

Verses that implicitly say baptism saves us:

4. Or are you unaware that we who were baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life. For if we have grown into union with him through a death like his, we shall also be united with him in the resurrection.
 (Rom 6:3-4)
 
5. “..he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.” (Titus 3:5)
 
6. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. (1Cor 11:16)

7. “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. (Jn 3;5)


Verses that link baptism to some aspect of salvation:

8. Repent and be baptised, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. (Acts 2:38)

9. Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptised and your sins washed away, calling upon his name. (Acts 22:16).

10. let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. (Heb 10:22)
 
11. You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. And even when you were dead (in) transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he brought you to life along with him, having forgiven us all our transgressions; (Col 2:11-13)

12. all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. (Gal 3:27).

13. “In him also you were circumcised with a spiritual circumcision, by putting off the body of the flesh in the circumcision of Christ; when you were buried with him in baptism, you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.” (Col 2:11-12)


Not just a few isolated verses.

Now you show me:
the verses that say baptism is just an ordinance
the verses that say we are saved before baptism
the verses that say baptism is just acknowledging that we have been saved


Added:
here are some more


14. As a body is one though it has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though many, are one body, so also Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptised into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink of one Spirit.
(1Cor 12:12-13).
Baptism brings us into the body of Christ (the Church).
 
15. This text also shows this: one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; (Eph 4:4-5)

16. Through baptism we are brought into the new covenant “In him also you were circumcised with a spiritual circumcision, by putting off the body of the flesh in the circumcision of Christ; when you were buried with him in baptism, you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.” (Col 2:11-12)
This clearly links a “spiritual circumcision” with baptism, a link from baptism to the covenant, not through physical circumcision (as in the Old Covenant) but a spiritual one.

17. For through faith you are all children of God in Christ Jesus.  For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.  And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendant, heirs according to the promise. (Gal 3:26-27)

Paul tells us in Romans 9:8 “That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.” It is in baptism (with water) that we become children of the promise; we are made children of God.
 
« Last Edit: Thu Oct 18, 2012 - 15:39:02 by winsome »

Offline winsome

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #500 on: Thu Oct 18, 2012 - 15:27:01 »
In the Acts of the apostles these two go together. When someone comes to believe in Jesus they are either immediately, or very soon, baptised.

This is true of
Paul (Acts 9:1-18)
The Samaritans (Acts 8:1-13)
The Ethiopian (Acts 8:26-38)
Acts Cornelius and his household (10:44-48)
Lydia and her household (Acts 16:13-16)
The jailer (Acts 16:30-33)
The twelve at Ephesus (Acts 19:1-5)
 
 
 
One question that could be asked is - why are both of these required? Why two things?
 
Have you thought about that?

Have you? It is because once we are saved, the Lord calls us to obey Him and be baptized. Holy Spirit seals us in Christ, and we receive His anointing over our lives, just as Jesus did when He was baptized.
 


 If we look back to the fall in Genesis, Adam and Eve committed two sins:
They lost faith in God. Instead they believed Satan’s lies.
They disobeyed God’s command not to eat of the fruit of the tree of good and evil.

Therefore God obliges each of us to personally believe in him and to be obedient to him.
Obedience is signified by carrying out some act commanded by God. In this case baptism, though baptism is much more than a simple act of obedience. Nevertheless both of these acts (faith and baptism) are our own personal rejection of Adam’s sins.
 
« Last Edit: Thu Oct 18, 2012 - 15:36:04 by winsome »

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #501 on: Thu Oct 18, 2012 - 17:26:37 »
Lively Stone,
 
You accuse me of taking a few isolated verses.
 
Here are verses that relate to baptism and show, directly or indirectly, that baptism saves us.
 
 
Verses that explicitly say baptism save us:
 
1. Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved (Mk 16:16)

2. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, (1Pet 3:21)
 
3. Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand persons were added that day. ……. And every day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved. (Acts 2:41….47)

Verses that implicitly say baptism saves us:

4. Or are you unaware that we who were baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life. For if we have grown into union with him through a death like his, we shall also be united with him in the resurrection.
 (Rom 6:3-4)
 
5. “..he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.” (Titus 3:5)
 
6. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. (1Cor 11:16)

7. “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. (Jn 3;5)


Verses that link baptism to some aspect of salvation:

8. Repent and be baptised, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. (Acts 2:38)

9. Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptised and your sins washed away, calling upon his name. (Acts 22:16).

10. let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. (Heb 10:22)
 
11. You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. And even when you were dead (in) transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he brought you to life along with him, having forgiven us all our transgressions; (Col 2:11-13)

12. all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. (Gal 3:27).

13. “In him also you were circumcised with a spiritual circumcision, by putting off the body of the flesh in the circumcision of Christ; when you were buried with him in baptism, you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.” (Col 2:11-12)


Not just a few isolated verses.

Now you show me:
the verses that say baptism is just an ordinance
the verses that say we are saved before baptism
the verses that say baptism is just acknowledging that we have been saved


Added:
here are some more


14. As a body is one though it has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though many, are one body, so also Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptised into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink of one Spirit.
(1Cor 12:12-13).
Baptism brings us into the body of Christ (the Church).
 
15. This text also shows this: one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; (Eph 4:4-5)

16. Through baptism we are brought into the new covenant “In him also you were circumcised with a spiritual circumcision, by putting off the body of the flesh in the circumcision of Christ; when you were buried with him in baptism, you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.” (Col 2:11-12)
This clearly links a “spiritual circumcision” with baptism, a link from baptism to the covenant, not through physical circumcision (as in the Old Covenant) but a spiritual one.

17. For through faith you are all children of God in Christ Jesus.  For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.  And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendant, heirs according to the promise. (Gal 3:26-27)

Paul tells us in Romans 9:8 “That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.” It is in baptism (with water) that we become children of the promise; we are made children of God.

Yep. Verses taken out of context and without fully understanding what is being taught. Only people who are already counted as children of the living God are required to obey the command to be baptized. It is as simple as that. Nowhere are sinners required to be baptized. First things first!

Lively Stone

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #502 on: Thu Oct 18, 2012 - 17:34:36 »
In the Acts of the apostles these two go together. When someone comes to believe in Jesus they are either immediately, or very soon, baptised.

This is true of
Paul (Acts 9:1-18)
The Samaritans (Acts 8:1-13)
The Ethiopian (Acts 8:26-38)
Acts Cornelius and his household (10:44-48)
Lydia and her household (Acts 16:13-16)
The jailer (Acts 16:30-33)
The twelve at Ephesus (Acts 19:1-5)
 
 
 
One question that could be asked is - why are both of these required? Why two things?
 
Have you thought about that?

Have you? It is because once we are saved, the Lord calls us to obey Him and be baptized. Holy Spirit seals us in Christ, and we receive His anointing over our lives, just as Jesus did when He was baptized.
 


 If we look back to the fall in Genesis, Adam and Eve committed two sins:
They lost faith in God. Instead they believed Satan’s lies.
They disobeyed God’s command not to eat of the fruit of the tree of good and evil.

Therefore God obliges each of us to personally believe in him and to be obedient to him.
Obedience is signified by carrying out some act commanded by God. In this case baptism, though baptism is much more than a simple act of obedience. Nevertheless both of these acts (faith and baptism) are our own personal rejection of Adam’s sins.

Only those who are born again are called to obey what God commands them. He doesn't command sinners to be baptized. Nowhere in scripture has one single unbeliever been baptized.

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #503 on: Thu Oct 18, 2012 - 17:49:33 »
This is the Baptist forum.


What we have here is 34 pages of Catholics arguing with Charismatics, with nary a Baptist in sight.


Thread locked.

 

     
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