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Offline betsy

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #70 on: Thu Sep 27, 2012 - 17:24:02 »
Quote
Ladonia:
And the Crucifixion. The most momentous thing that has happened to all mankind and you want to just shove it under the rug, just forget about it, it's too gory ( or some such thing). We are commanded to remember it, to meditate upon it,  this sacrifice on Calvary, the shedding of the Blood of the Lamb. There is no Resurrection without the Crucifixion!

We remember Christ dying for us whenever we take the supper (you call it Communion).  When He broke the bread. He said, "Do this in remembrance of Me."

Cite the verse in the Bible wherein we're commanded to remember Christ through a crucifix. 
« Last Edit: Thu Sep 27, 2012 - 17:56:31 by betsy »

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #70 on: Thu Sep 27, 2012 - 17:24:02 »

Offline betsy

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #71 on: Thu Sep 27, 2012 - 17:35:48 »
I've heard of the "cult of Mary"....and stumbled upon this while doing some googling about it.  I've yet to do my own research....but this might be interesting.


Quote
St. Paul's Problem

When St. Paul was preaching in Ephesus, he had an exceptionally serious problem with the local idolatry. In fact, this is the only time that the Bible says that persecution of Christians came directly from the conflict of the Church with idolatry. The people of Ephesus, prior to the introduction of the Christian Faith, had mainly been worshippers of the pagan Greek goddess Artemis, also known by her Roman name, Diana. This was one of the largest active pagan religions in the world at that time. The Temple of Artemis in Ephesus was one of the biggest and most splendorous temples ever built. In it was an image of Artemis that her believers swore fell from the sky. Her worshippers made pilgrimages to Ephesus from all over the Greco-Roman world. Some of the Ephesian worshippers of Artemis gained their income from making images of her, presumably household shrines for sale to other worshippers. The spread of Christianity that resulted from St. Paul's ministry in Ephesus was so powerful a movement (Acts 19:11-20) that it provoked alarm in the people who made the images of Artemis, and this alarm resulted in a riot, which we read about in Acts 19:23-41.

Paul had to leave Ephesus after the riot, but the Church remained, and in time, the cult of Artemis was totally replaced by Christianity.



Our Problem

While the cult was gone, the satanic powers behind the cult still existed. These, considering to whom the Epistle was written, and what the circumstances were, were the powers that Paul was specifically referring to in Ephesians 6:12. There was and is real spiritual power behind pagan religions, but it is satanic power. In other words, demons! Although they had been outwardly defeated, the demons behind the cult were not about to give up the fight against the Truth. So, they found another way of attacking Christianity. This time, they made their attack in a more subtle way, from within. They discovered a female personality in the history of Christianity that they could disguise themselves as, and thus deceive Christians into accepting a powerful and subtle yet seriously evil counterfeit of Christianity.

That counterfeit personality, unfortunately, is "Mary"!

Paul also told us, in I Timothy 4:1, "Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons". So what we have today, steadily gaining power throughout the world, already effectively controlling the Roman Catholic Church, and even gaining increasing influence among Protestants, is the cult of "Mary" It should be noted that the cult of "Mary" did not begin until several centuries later.

Note: The word "Mary" is put in quotes and italics when used in connection with the cult in this page because the spiritual entity being worshipped as "Mary" is not the Mary of the Bible.

As stated at the top of the page, if anyone preaches another gospel to us, that person, angel, or whatever, is to be considered accursed, which is to say, evil. Anyone who looks at the cult of "Mary" from the standpoint of Scripture can see that what she is saying, and what is said about her, is in fact another gospel. Therefore, it is not to be accepted. In fact, in the spirit of "touch no unclean thing" (II Corinthians 6:17), anything having to do with "Mary", like UFOs, is something that Christians should stay away from.

Special Note: Although in the Main Message of this ministry, Islam is identified as the Great Harlot, AKA Mystery Babylon, if this writer had to make a second choice as a possible fulfillment of that prophecy, the choice would be the cult of "Mary". It may be just as powerful spiritually. The difference is that Islam is more powerful politically and militarily, has a political agenda, and is more prone to violence
.


http://www.be-ready.org/cult.html


« Last Edit: Thu Sep 27, 2012 - 17:45:54 by betsy »

Offline betsy

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #72 on: Thu Sep 27, 2012 - 17:39:37 »
Another interesting reading....

Quote
But why did the early church feel a need to elevate Mary to a position of worship? Perhaps to help spread Christianity. "Ancient people needed a feminine figure in their worship," Boss says. "They were used to having goddesses." Moreover, virgin births of gods figured prominently in many ancient myths. And pioneering Christians often piggybacked on paganism to speed conversion. They built churches where pagan temples once stood and often proclaimed holy days that coincided with past pagan celebrations.
 
Go-to saint. Marian devotion went into overdrive in the Roman west in 431, after the Council of Ephesus agreed that Mary should be called Theotokos (Mother of God) rather than Christotokos (Mother of Christ). The Theotokos label also implied Jesus's divinity. To be sure, there were dissenters who considered the title blasphemous. Nestorius, an early leader of the church in Constantinople, protested that God has always been, so he couldn't have a human mother. In the 11th century, the scholar St. Bernard of Clairvaux gave the cult further momentum when he preached a more emotional, personal faith in which Mary was the prime intercessor
.


http://www.usnews.com/news/religion/articles/2008/01/25/devotion-to-her-has-long-been-a-controversial-affair
« Last Edit: Thu Sep 27, 2012 - 17:44:39 by betsy »

Offline betsy

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #73 on: Thu Sep 27, 2012 - 17:42:32 »
Quote
Note: The word "Mary" is put in quotes and italics when used in connection with the cult in this page because the spiritual entity being worshipped as "Mary" is not the Mary of the Bible.


http://www.be-ready.org/cult.html




The Mary of the Bible instructed:  DO WHATEVER HE TELLS YOU.

The Catholic Church is ignoring that instruction.  So the question is: which Mary are you venerating?

Offline betsy

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #74 on: Thu Sep 27, 2012 - 17:58:24 »

Furthermore, you mentioned about the "mysteries."  Joyful, Sorrowful and Glorious.  Thanks for reminding me.....but why do they  call them "mysteries?"  Can you please explain that to me?
 Do they mean "mysteries" in the literal sense? 
Because if that's the case,  why is it a "mystery" to a Christian that Jesus was born from a virgin, suffered and died on the cross, and finally was resurrected?  That was the execution of God's plan - to give us a chance at salvation! Christ explained why it had to happen. The apostles who witnessed it all explained how and why it all happened.  There is no longer any mystery about it - unless there is still a nagging question about the validity of it or the purpose of it, don't you think so? What's "mysterious" about it if one believes?  God gave the answer!  It's all been explained

Mysteries in theological terms are those things that how ever much we ponder on them, however much we think we understand them, there is always more to learn and understand.

We can never fully understand God. We can never fully understand Jesus and all that he did for us.

Thank you, Winsome.

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #74 on: Thu Sep 27, 2012 - 17:58:24 »



Offline betsy

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #75 on: Thu Sep 27, 2012 - 18:13:18 »
Quote
Ladonia:
Matt 16 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
 
"Not prevail against it" are the key words. A church, an entity. If Our Lord had meant people he would have said: "Not prevail against them", or, "Not prevail against the people". You misinterpret again.



So you're saying the Church is some building???? 

In those days, cities have gates.  When the cities come under siege, they close those gates.  Anyway, here's my Bible Study explanation for Matthew 16:18:

The word church is a translation of ekklesia, meaning
"called out" or "assembly."  In the New Testament it usually refers to a
local group of Christians.  In this sense the church is an assembly of
baptized believers under the dsicipline of the Word of God. They are
organized to carry out the Great Commission, the administration of the New
Testament ordinances, and the exercise of spiritual gifts.  When a group of
Christians today follows this example, it is a church in the Biblical sense of
the word.


  The Church is not a building!  How can you call it "it" when there are so many churches?  It would've said, "cannot prevail against them!"

What, the buildings - since there are thousands of churches -  will all be coming down in hordes, and knocking down on the gates of hell?  Looks like cartoons. Ha-ha-ha   ::giggle::
(Sorry but sometimes I'vegot this terrible sense of humor)

Seriously, Lively Stone is right.  Actually that verse says it is hell's gates that cannot prevail against "it." 
We are the Church.

pre·vail (pr-vl)
intr.v. pre·vailed, pre·vail·ing, pre·vails
1. To be greater in strength or influence; triumph: prevailed against the enemy.


« Last Edit: Thu Sep 27, 2012 - 18:39:44 by betsy »

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #76 on: Thu Sep 27, 2012 - 21:33:58 »
Quote
Ladonia:
And the Crucifixion. The most momentous thing that has happened to all mankind and you want to just shove it under the rug, just forget about it, it's too gory ( or some such thing). We are commanded to remember it, to meditate upon it,  this sacrifice on Calvary, the shedding of the Blood of the Lamb. There is no Resurrection without the Crucifixion!

We remember Christ dying for us whenever we take the supper (you call it Communion).  When He broke the bread. He said, "Do this in remembrance of Me."

Cite the verse in the Bible wherein we're commanded to remember Christ through a crucifix.

 ::thumbup::  ::thumbup::  ::thumbup::

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #77 on: Fri Sep 28, 2012 - 00:16:01 »
Quote
Ladonia:
 The Church teaches what it teaches about Mary, taking it's cue from the Scriptures.

Taking cue from which part of the Scriptures?

Mary is blessed.  Mary was chosen by God to be the mother of the Messiah.  Just like Abraham and Moses, and a lot others.  There's hardly any mention of Mary in the Bible compared to the prominence of the Apostles!  If she was mentioned at all, most are casual refernce to her.
Aside from the story surrounding the birth of Jesus,  the wedding where Jesus performed His miracle turning water to wine, and when Jesus was dying on the cross - the only other specific segment where-in she was prominently mentioned was when she and her other children came to visit Jesus. 

Quote
Matthew 12 KJV
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
 
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
 
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
 
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
 
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

That message from Jesus clearly doesn't translate that we should pray or worship or glorify Mary, does it?

What does Matthew 12: 46-50 say in the Catholic Bible?


Quote
No one is required to pray the rosary, but I can see the value of it's various aspects. I personally have my focus on Christ, not the Blessed Mother or the Saints.

Whether it's required or not is not the point.  A true Christian Church should not give that option at all.

Anyway, that article tried to downplay the worshipping of Mary......yet there are other activities/worshipping that occurs other than praying the rosary.  What about the novena to the Mother of Perpetual Help?  Christians gather in church and a priest officiates - don't tell me that isn't worshipping and glorifying  If there is extra time other than the Sabbath day to devote to any worshipping - it should be devoted to God!

A fictional story told by our priest in his sermon also painted Mary as having some kind of "power" that she can wield in Heaven.  The story goes like this:  A person died, and he was knocking on heaven's door.  Peter wouldn't let him in since he didn't meet some requirements.  This person always prayed the rosary when he was alive, so Mary decided to take matters into her own hands by opening a window and letting that person in through the window.
The story was supposed to be heartwarming and inspiring - and it was, that's why I still remember it after all this years. 
But if you analyze the message in that story - something is terribly wrong!  The story suggests that Mary committed some kind of rebellion against God by letting that person in heaven anyway, even though he didn't meet the requirements to enter heaven. 

So what is this?  Is the Catholic Church trying to promote the idea that because Mary is the mother of Christ - that she's somehow like a wife to God? 

Is God and Mary the Catholic's equivalent of Zeus and Hera? 
And how ironic!  With all these devotion and prayers and worshipping of Mary - guess what?
 The Catholic Church disobeys Mary! 
 
Mary gave one very important instruction to the servants at the wedding in Cana.  She instructed:

"DO WHATEVER  HE TELLS YOU!"







 
 

Taking it's cue from the Scriptures you just cited. 

You have really hooked on to the anti-Mary faction so prevalent in the rejectionist sects. Who got you on to all this, some rabid anti- Catholic pastor somewhere, or do you just hate so much the faith tradition from which you came? You really need to give the dear Lady a break. Don't get so worked up about her, the abhorance you have for this issue can eat you alive.
 
Now tell me, how  did you so readily give up Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist for for some grape juice and crackers?
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 28, 2012 - 00:21:20 by Ladonia »

Offline betsy

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #78 on: Fri Sep 28, 2012 - 04:51:56 »
Quote
Ladonia:
 The Church teaches what it teaches about Mary, taking it's cue from the Scriptures.

Taking cue from which part of the Scriptures?

Mary is blessed.  Mary was chosen by God to be the mother of the Messiah.  Just like Abraham and Moses, and a lot others.  There's hardly any mention of Mary in the Bible compared to the prominence of the Apostles!  If she was mentioned at all, most are casual refernce to her.
Aside from the story surrounding the birth of Jesus,  the wedding where Jesus performed His miracle turning water to wine, and when Jesus was dying on the cross - the only other specific segment where-in she was prominently mentioned was when she and her other children came to visit Jesus. 
Quote

Matthew 12 KJV
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
 
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
 
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
 
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
 
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

That message from Jesus clearly doesn't translate that we should pray or worship or glorify Mary, does it?

What does Matthew 12: 46-50 say in the Catholic Bible?


Quote
No one is required to pray the rosary, but I can see the value of it's various aspects. I personally have my focus on Christ, not the Blessed Mother or the Saints.

Whether it's required or not is not the point.  A true Christian Church should not give that option at all.

Anyway, that article tried to downplay the worshipping of Mary......yet there are other activities/worshipping that occurs other than praying the rosary.  What about the novena to the Mother of Perpetual Help?  Christians gather in church and a priest officiates - don't tell me that isn't worshipping and glorifying  If there is extra time other than the Sabbath day to devote to any worshipping - it should be devoted to God!

A fictional story told by our priest in his sermon also painted Mary as having some kind of "power" that she can wield in Heaven.  The story goes like this:  A person died, and he was knocking on heaven's door.  Peter wouldn't let him in since he didn't meet some requirements.  This person always prayed the rosary when he was alive, so Mary decided to take matters into her own hands by opening a window and letting that person in through the window.
The story was supposed to be heartwarming and inspiring - and it was, that's why I still remember it after all this years. 
But if you analyze the message in that story - something is terribly wrong!  The story suggests that Mary committed some kind of rebellion against God by letting that person in heaven anyway, even though he didn't meet the requirements to enter heaven. 

So what is this?  Is the Catholic Church trying to promote the idea that because Mary is the mother of Christ - that she's somehow like a wife to God? 

Is God and Mary the Catholic's equivalent of Zeus and Hera? 
And how ironic!  With all these devotion and prayers and worshipping of Mary - guess what?
 The Catholic Church disobeys Mary! 
 
Mary gave one very important instruction to the servants at the wedding in Cana.  She instructed:

"DO WHATEVER  HE TELLS YOU!"
 

Taking it's cue from the Scriptures you just cited. 

Let me bring that verse up again:
Matthew 12 KJV
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.


????
Have you read the given Scripture?  Maybe I'm missing something........

Will you explain how you interpret that to mean that we should pray to Mary.

Quote
You have really hooked on to the anti-Mary faction so prevalent in the rejectionist sects. Who got you on to all this, some rabid anti- Catholic pastor somewhere,

My older sister - in a way - planted the seeds of doubts about the church by telling me the hypocrisies in it.  At the time, I was just in my teens.  I don't know where she got all that. She was a very disillusioned Christian. Unfortunately, she found another false religion.

Until the time I actually read the Bible for myself, I was still defending the Catholic Church - even though I no longer identified myself as a Catholic. 
Everything about the Catholic church became clear to me as I began reading the Bible.

 
Quote
or do you just hate so much the faith tradition from which you came?

See? Catholics are more into tradition than real faith in God.  You follow the tradition of men.  That is one of the biggest gripe of Jesus against the Pharisees.

Jesus warned us repeatedly to be vigilant about false prophets and wolves in sheep's clothings. 

I do not hate the flocks of the Catholic Church -  how can I hate you when you are my sisters and my brothers?  You are being misled. 
The Catholic Church is no longer the Christian Church that you think it is.  It had veered away from God - centuries ago.

You are lost sheep - and I'm trying to do my Christian duty.....trying to help you find your way back to Him. 

 
Quote
You really need to give the dear Lady a break. Don't get so worked up about her, the abhorance you have for this issue can eat you alive.

I am on Mary's side!  The MARY OF THE BIBLE!  The Mother of Christ!

It is you - the Catholics - who should leave her alone!  Don't sully her name by trying to "pit her against Jesus!" 
The Catholic Church uses her to lead you away from God!

 
Quote
Now tell me, how  did you so readily give up Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist for for some grape juice and crackers?

I never gave up Jesus.  It is you who threw away your Christian faith when you started believing that the piece of wafer you cud around in your mouth  (and making sure you didn't chew it - yup!  I was instructed never to chew on that host) is actually God.

What about in the bushes where there is no store or factory to mass-produced your wafers - you think nothing will do except the mass-produced ones?  Who got the contract btw for your supplies?  ::smile::
 
Ladonia, just like the Church is not a building, Christ is not some grape or crackers. In my Church, we use bread - although of course, Christ is not that bread.  We remember Christ by doing as He instructed us to do.

Christ -btw- is also not some paper thin bland white circular wafers.  ::smile::

--------------------------------

You ignored a lot of good questions and points I threw at you, and I can understand why.

Ladonia, you wouldn't be having such a hard time defending your church if the truth is on your side.
 
 
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 28, 2012 - 05:18:11 by betsy »

Offline betsy

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #79 on: Fri Sep 28, 2012 - 05:08:20 »
What about this?

Quote
The Catholic Church disobeys Mary! 
 
Mary gave one very important instruction to the servants at the wedding in Cana.  She instructed:

"DO WHATEVER  HE TELLS YOU!"


Why is the church disobeying Mary?  Ask your priest.  Let me know why....I really am curious.

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #80 on: Fri Sep 28, 2012 - 10:54:41 »
What about this?

Quote
The Catholic Church disobeys Mary! 
 
Mary gave one very important instruction to the servants at the wedding in Cana.  She instructed:

"DO WHATEVER  HE TELLS YOU!"


Why is the church disobeying Mary?  Ask your priest.  Let me know why....I really am curious.
Quote
Ladonia:
 The Church teaches what it teaches about Mary, taking it's cue from the Scriptures.

Taking cue from which part of the Scriptures?

Mary is blessed.  Mary was chosen by God to be the mother of the Messiah.  Just like Abraham and Moses, and a lot others.  There's hardly any mention of Mary in the Bible compared to the prominence of the Apostles!  If she was mentioned at all, most are casual refernce to her.
Aside from the story surrounding the birth of Jesus,  the wedding where Jesus performed His miracle turning water to wine, and when Jesus was dying on the cross - the only other specific segment where-in she was prominently mentioned was when she and her other children came to visit Jesus. 
Quote

Matthew 12 KJV
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
 
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
 
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
 
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
 
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

That message from Jesus clearly doesn't translate that we should pray or worship or glorify Mary, does it?

What does Matthew 12: 46-50 say in the Catholic Bible?


Quote
No one is required to pray the rosary, but I can see the value of it's various aspects. I personally have my focus on Christ, not the Blessed Mother or the Saints.

Whether it's required or not is not the point.  A true Christian Church should not give that option at all.

Anyway, that article tried to downplay the worshipping of Mary......yet there are other activities/worshipping that occurs other than praying the rosary.  What about the novena to the Mother of Perpetual Help?  Christians gather in church and a priest officiates - don't tell me that isn't worshipping and glorifying  If there is extra time other than the Sabbath day to devote to any worshipping - it should be devoted to God!

A fictional story told by our priest in his sermon also painted Mary as having some kind of "power" that she can wield in Heaven.  The story goes like this:  A person died, and he was knocking on heaven's door.  Peter wouldn't let him in since he didn't meet some requirements.  This person always prayed the rosary when he was alive, so Mary decided to take matters into her own hands by opening a window and letting that person in through the window.
The story was supposed to be heartwarming and inspiring - and it was, that's why I still remember it after all this years. 
But if you analyze the message in that story - something is terribly wrong!  The story suggests that Mary committed some kind of rebellion against God by letting that person in heaven anyway, even though he didn't meet the requirements to enter heaven. 

So what is this?  Is the Catholic Church trying to promote the idea that because Mary is the mother of Christ - that she's somehow like a wife to God? 

Is God and Mary the Catholic's equivalent of Zeus and Hera? 
And how ironic!  With all these devotion and prayers and worshipping of Mary - guess what?
 The Catholic Church disobeys Mary! 
 
Mary gave one very important instruction to the servants at the wedding in Cana.  She instructed:

"DO WHATEVER  HE TELLS YOU!"
 

Taking it's cue from the Scriptures you just cited. 

Let me bring that verse up again:
Matthew 12 KJV
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.


 ??? ?
Have you read the given Scripture?  Maybe I'm missing something........

Will you explain how you interpret that to mean that we should pray to Mary.

Quote
You have really hooked on to the anti-Mary faction so prevalent in the rejectionist sects. Who got you on to all this, some rabid anti- Catholic pastor somewhere,

My older sister - in a way - planted the seeds of doubts about the church by telling me the hypocrisies in it.  At the time, I was just in my teens.  I don't know where she got all that. She was a very disillusioned Christian. Unfortunately, she found another false religion.

Until the time I actually read the Bible for myself, I was still defending the Catholic Church - even though I no longer identified myself as a Catholic. 
Everything about the Catholic church became clear to me as I began reading the Bible.

 
Quote
or do you just hate so much the faith tradition from which you came?

See? Catholics are more into tradition than real faith in God.  You follow the tradition of men.  That is one of the biggest gripe of Jesus against the Pharisees.

Jesus warned us repeatedly to be vigilant about false prophets and wolves in sheep's clothings. 

I do not hate the flocks of the Catholic Church -  how can I hate you when you are my sisters and my brothers?  You are being misled. 
The Catholic Church is no longer the Christian Church that you think it is.  It had veered away from God - centuries ago.

You are lost sheep - and I'm trying to do my Christian duty.....trying to help you find your way back to Him. 

 
Quote
You really need to give the dear Lady a break. Don't get so worked up about her, the abhorance you have for this issue can eat you alive.

I am on Mary's side!  The MARY OF THE BIBLE!  The Mother of Christ!

It is you - the Catholics - who should leave her alone!  Don't sully her name by trying to "pit her against Jesus!" 
The Catholic Church uses her to lead you away from God!

 
Quote
Now tell me, how  did you so readily give up Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist for for some grape juice and crackers?

I never gave up Jesus.  It is you who threw away your Christian faith when you started believing that the piece of wafer you cud around in your mouth  (and making sure you didn't chew it - yup!  I was instructed never to chew on that host) is actually God.

What about in the bushes where there is no store or factory to mass-produced your wafers - you think nothing will do except the mass-produced ones?  Who got the contract btw for your supplies?  ::smile::
 
Ladonia, just like the Church is not a building, Christ is not some grape or crackers. In my Church, we use bread - although of course, Christ is not that bread.  We remember Christ by doing as He instructed us to do.

Christ -btw- is also not some paper thin bland white circular wafers.  ::smile::

--------------------------------

You ignored a lot of good questions and points I threw at you, and I can understand why.

Ladonia, you wouldn't be having such a hard time defending your church if the truth is on your side.
 
 
[/quoOk, I shall answer youn point by point. You have received some erroneous information 
« Last Edit: Fri Sep 28, 2012 - 11:10:25 by Ladonia »

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #81 on: Fri Sep 28, 2012 - 11:25:21 »
Ok, I shall answer youn point by point. You have received some erroneous information as to what the Church teaches as regards "praying to Mary" or the Saints in heaven for that matter. We do not pray to Mary or worship her as you have claimed. We ask her to "pray for us", just as you can ask me to pray for you. She, like all the dearly departed are not dead, but like the Scriptures say, is stll "alive in Christ". Therfore, they who are now with Christ can petition Him directly. Now, you probably reject that teaching also, but it is what it is.
 
Even though you have cited those words above, we know that Jesus still loved His mother, so much so that at the foot of the Cross, He gave her to John for safekeeping. Had he not cared for her, he would not of thought of her at that time and would have just abandoned her. In that passage He was making some other point. He still believed that He should honor His mother as per one of the Ten Commandments.
 
Catholics believe intradition because it is one of the ways to continue on with all that was given us. We worship on Sunday because it was the "tradition" for the new Christian Church to do this. Baby boys are circumcised at birth to continue the tradition which was done by God's chosen people, the Jews. And we do it because St Paul tells us to "hold fast" to them. Yes, we continue on with traditions because we are commanded to.
 
And shame on you for rejecting the "Real Presence" of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist. The consecrated wafer IS the body of Jesus Christ. The consecrated wine IS likewise His blood. Read carefully the following from 1 Cor 11 24-29
 
And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 [/color]After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.[/url]
26 [/color]For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.[/url]
27 [/color]Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.[/url]
28 [/color]But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.[/url]
29 [/color]For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.[/url]
 
There can be no other conclusion that the Eucharist IS indeed the Body and Blood of Our Lord as taught by this passage. It is you who have rejected this basic doctrine coming from the mouth of one of the Apostles and confirmed for all Christendom in later years. Even when the Eastern Church split from the West, they would not dare to question or change this basic fact. Only heretical sects have done this - a theology that you now embrace. I think that is the saddest part of all for people like you who have strayed so far from the truth.
 
Everything the Catholic Church does and says can be defended by the "binding and loosing" power given to it by Jesus Christ Himself. The church He created by the concept of "Apostolic Succession", a teaching church to help the faithful live holy and pleasing lives to God.
 
You have chosen to reject all of this in favor of some man made sect. I can only tell you the honest truth in the hope that some day you will realise the great mistake you have made and return to the Church and belive what it teaches and where God wants you to be. God bless!

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #82 on: Fri Sep 28, 2012 - 11:30:46 »
What about this?

Quote
The Catholic Church disobeys Mary! 
 
Mary gave one very important instruction to the servants at the wedding in Cana.  She instructed:

"DO WHATEVER  HE TELLS YOU!"


Why is the church disobeyingnot Mary?  Ask your priest.  Let me know why....I really am curious.

He would say that the Church is obeying God, not Mary. He believes what I believe, what Catholics all over  the world belive. We are  not like the Baptists, where the 1st Baptist Church differs with the 2nd Baptist Church just down the street. You have anarchy, we have cohesion.

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #83 on: Fri Sep 28, 2012 - 12:41:43 »
I'm a catholic, and i'm curious about the baptist faith. I have never been to any church outside the catholic religion, and i'm curious to go. I plan to go tonight. I have been reading some of the differences in the beliefs between catholics and baptists and I think I believe in more of the baptists beliefs.

Im not sure If anyone here can tell me the main beliefs that differ between catholics and baptists, I might not have found all the differences in my research.

Baptists don't believe in  Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Baptists convert the purpose of baptism into an act of obedience instead of the purpose stated in scripture.
There are churches who teach the whole gospel and will take the time to teach you the Bible and not try convert you in the first service.
Luke 14:27 And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. 28 “Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Will he not first sit down and estimate the cost to see if he has enough money to complete it?
Btw, I'm not catholic.

« Last Edit: Fri Sep 28, 2012 - 13:00:12 by e.r.m. »

Offline e.r.m.

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #84 on: Fri Sep 28, 2012 - 13:03:13 »
What about this?

Quote
The Catholic Church disobeys Mary! 
 
Mary gave one very important instruction to the servants at the wedding in Cana.  She instructed:

"DO WHATEVER  HE TELLS YOU!"


Why is the church disobeyingnot Mary?  Ask your priest.  Let me know why....I really am curious.

He would say that the Church is obeying God, not Mary. He believes what I believe, what Catholics all over  the world belive. We are  not like the Baptists, where the 1st Baptist Church differs with the 2nd Baptist Church just down the street. You have anarchy, we have cohesion.
Muslims have cohesion, JWs have cohesion, Shriners have cohesion, Cohesion in what the Bible teaches is what's needed. Not attacking catholicism, just laying out a principle.

Offline Snargles

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #85 on: Fri Sep 28, 2012 - 22:34:17 »

 
And shame on you for rejecting the "Real Presence" of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist. The consecrated wafer IS the body of Jesus Christ. The consecrated wine IS likewise His blood. Read carefully the following from 1 Cor 11 24-29
 
And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.


Jesus also said that his followers had to hate their parents and he said if your eye offends you, you should pluck it out. He wasn't speaking literally in any of these instances. His body and blood are symbolically present in the wine and bread but they aren't literally present.

Offline Snargles

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #86 on: Fri Sep 28, 2012 - 22:38:39 »

Everything the Catholic Church does and says can be defended by the "binding and loosing" power given to it by Jesus Christ Himself. The church He created by the concept of "Apostolic Succession", a teaching church to help the faithful live holy and pleasing lives to God.
Another explanation of the "binding and loosing" is that the apostles (and only the apostles) had the power to discern that which was already bound and loosed. They didn't do the B&L, God did the B&L and they had the power to comprehend that.
Apostolic succession is a man-made concept and not supported by scripture.

Offline betsy

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #87 on: Sat Sep 29, 2012 - 05:59:11 »
Ok, I shall answer youn point by point. You have received some erroneous information as to what the Church teaches as regards "praying to Mary" or the Saints in heaven for that matter. We do not pray to Mary or worship her as you have claimed. We ask her to "pray for us", just as you can ask me to pray for you.

Do I do a novena to you that you may pray for me?  Do I pray to you that you may pray for me?
Do I kneel down to you and sing you hymns?  Do I wear your scapulars?
Do I exalt and glorify your name - or do I have medals that bear your image, or banners that bear your name so that you may pray for me? 
The Catholic Church tries to justify all these man-made (or even perhaps devil-inspired) rituals and forms of idolatry.  If it looks like a duck, talks like a duck and walks like a duck....it is a duck!
 
Quote
She, like all the dearly departed are not dead, but like the Scriptures say, is stll "alive in Christ". Therfore, they who are now with Christ can petition Him directly. Now, you probably reject that teaching also, but it is what it is.

You keep referring to scriptures....I want you to cite those scriptures!  Which specific verse???

Alive in Christ - all Christians who follow Christ are alive in Christ!  From being spiritually dead, we've come to life!  Perhaps that's why Mary of the Bible instructed all of us to DO WHATEVER HE TELLS YOU!  Because that's the key to all, isn't it?

 
Quote
Even though you have cited those words above, we know that Jesus still loved His mother,

I don't think anyone is saying that Jesus didn't love His mother. 

He even humored her - obliging her request -  when she requested His help at the wedding in Cana.  He performed His miracle even if it wasn't yet the time for Him to do so.  That incident in Cana is one of the biggest justification the Catholic Church uses as an argument!  That, since God gave in to Mary, therefore He'll be giving in at her other requests - thus she can effectively intercedes for us. But apparently, that's not so.  Says Jesus.
 
Quote
so much so that at the foot of the Cross, He gave her to John for safekeeping. Had he not cared for her, he would not of thought of her at that time and would have just abandoned her

You have to remember that Jesus was human.  In those days....being women, widows were very vulnerable.  They have to have someone to look after them.  What good son will not want to ensure he leaves his mother in good hands knowing he is dying?  That was Jesus, as a human....expressing human emotions!
 
Quote
In that passage He was making some other point. He still believed that He should honor His mother as per one of the Ten Commandments.

Yes, being a good son, He has to honor her.  Honoring someone is very much different from praying to someone.  Let's bring up that passage again.

Matthew 12 KJV
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.


See that highlighted part?   That's the key phrase: OBEDIENCE TO GOD!  He likened followers of God to be his brethren (like his mother and siblings - therefore, no special distinction that separates them from followers of God! I guess he squashed the idea of nepotism!)

Jesus was not shunning earth family, don't get me wrong.  What Jesus was saying is that all those who follow God are His family.

What  point do you think He makes in that passage? 

Quote

Catholics believe in tradition because it is one of the ways to continue on with all that was given us.

Is this the same passage in the Catholic Bible?  I pray you  read this Scripture carefully.
 
Quote
Matt 15
That Which Defiles15
Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”
3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’
5 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’
6 they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8“‘These people honor me with their lips,
    but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
    their teachings are merely human rules
[/i].

How many traditions being followed by the Catholic Church nullify the Word of God?  Don't you see the big point here, Ladonia?

What kind of  christian church disobeys the teachings of Christ?  That's why we're called Christians - meaning followers of Christ.  What is it that makes one a follower of Christ?  Following His teachings!

Anyone, or any church that doesn't follow the teachings of Christ is not a Christian Church.  It may pretend to be....or delude itself to be...but it is not!  You are being misled!


Quote
We worship on Sunday because it was the "tradition" for the new Christian Church to do this. Baby boys are circumcised at birth to continue the tradition which was done by God's chosen people, the Jews. And we do it because St Paul tells us to "hold fast" to them. Yes, we continue on with traditions because we are commanded to.

Cite that passage given by Paul.  If I'm not mistaken, Paul was the one who argued with the elders against traditions they wanted to impose on gentiles - such as circumcision, among other things!  Cite! 
 


 
« Last Edit: Sat Sep 29, 2012 - 06:23:23 by betsy »

Offline betsy

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #88 on: Sat Sep 29, 2012 - 06:34:29 »
Quote
And shame on you for rejecting the "Real Presence" of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist. The consecrated wafer IS the body of Jesus Christ. The consecrated wine IS likewise His blood. Read carefully the following from 1 Cor 11 24-29
 
And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
There can be no other conclusion that the Eucharist IS indeed the Body and Blood of Our Lord as taught by this passage. It is you who have rejected this basic doctrine coming from the mouth of one of the Apostles and confirmed for all Christendom in later years. Even when the Eastern Church split from the West, they would not dare to question or change this basic fact. Only heretical sects have done this - a theology that you now embrace. I think that is the saddest part of all for people like you who have strayed so far from the truth.

Christ is present where there is an assembly of people!  Christ is present in our hearts, if you are a follower of Christ!  He does not enter the bread.  He enters the heart!  You don't need to be in a building to have Christ in your heart! 
You can be lying in bed and talking to Him - and He is there!  This must be hard for Catholics to comprehend - this simplicity of having Christ - because you guys are so wrapped up with all your rituals and other sidelines of "communication" instead of going straight to Him!

It's like you guys using the pony express when you can always call Him direct.

You take away with your rituals and slew of petitions to your Mary and saints what should belong to God alone.


The bread is a SYMBOL - representing the broken body of Christ - as a memorial conducted in REMEMBRANCE of Christ

It does not become Christ.  

The lamb is also a symbol - representing Christ.  Do you kneel down and give thanks before lambs?

On the same token, good thing you brought this up.  If that's how you view a piece of bread - then that must be how you view the crucifix?  Is that why you kneel before it?

Don't you see the idolatry involved? Disguised as something "good?"  When in fact it is the very thing that offends God!  Remember the greatest Commandment of God - according to Jesus?
« Last Edit: Sat Sep 29, 2012 - 06:57:49 by betsy »

Offline betsy

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #89 on: Sat Sep 29, 2012 - 07:05:46 »
Quote
Ladonia:
Only heretical sects have done this - a theology that you now embrace. I think that is the saddest part of all for people like you who have strayed so far from the truth.

You do know that Christians were referred to as a "sect" by the Jews in those days?  Yep, because the Apostles were teaching about the Messiah and correcting the wrong interpretations of the tradition-guided synagogues.

So, what's new about being referred to as a sect by the tradition-guided Catholic Church?

Offline betsy

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #90 on: Sat Sep 29, 2012 - 07:29:54 »
Quote
He would say that the Church is obeying God, not Mary. He believes what I believe, what Catholics all over  the world belive.


The blind leading the blind.  You read yet you do not see.  You listen yet you do not hear.


Quote
We are  not like the Baptists, where the 1st Baptist Church differs with the 2nd Baptist Church just down the street. You have anarchy, we have cohesion.


Whoa.  Don't be too sure - Nuns are challenging your Vatican!  Not that I side with anyone - they're still both on wrong side (according to the Scriptures).
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/09/us/catholic-nuns-meet-to-weigh-reply-to-vatican.html

What cohesion are you talking about? Where do you think the protestants came from?  Your awols and deserters turned out not only bitter, angry, and some psychologically damaged....but a lot of them have become atheists!  Your church succeeded in having them turn their backs on God - perhaps that's the hidden agenda!

Offline betsy

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #91 on: Sat Sep 29, 2012 - 08:09:24 »
Just like to share this with you. From the Bible Stud:

FAILURE OF FAITH
There are six New Testament expressions that trace the decline of faith in an individual. Before a person is saved, he may have: (1) "vain faith" or belief in the wrong doctrine (1 Cor 15:14-17);
or (2) "dead faith" or belief in orthodox doctrine without personal belief in Christ (James 2:19, 20).
 
After a person is saved, he can expereince the following varieties of faith:
 (1) a kind of unbelief - experienced by believers who fail to accept the whole work of Christ (Mark 16:11-14),
 (2) "little faith" - a mixture of faith and unbelief (Mark 7:26)
 (3) "weak faith" - referring to belief expressed as mere legalism (14:1); or
 (4) "strong faith" - faith that is rooted in the promise of God (v.20)
 
Illustrations: As Christians mature, they should grow in faith. This was the experience of Abraham. Early in his pilgrimage with God, he could not trust God to protect him in Egypt. This was weak faith (Gen 12:10-20). He was later able to trust God in sacrificing his son, Isaac. This was strong faith (Heb. 11:17-19)
 
Application: The Christian life is a continual growing adventure in faith. (First reference, Gen. 15:6, Primary reference, Rom 4:20; cf Rom 8:16)

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #92 on: Sat Sep 29, 2012 - 11:09:58 »

 
And shame on you for rejecting the "Real Presence" of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist. The consecrated wafer IS the body of Jesus Christ. The consecrated wine IS likewise His blood. Read carefully the following from 1 Cor 11 24-29
 
And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 [/color]After the same manner also [/url]he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 [/color]For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.[/url]
27 [/color]Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink [/url]this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 [/color]But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of [/url]that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 [/color]For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.[/url]


Jesus also said that his followers had to hate their parents and he said if your eye offends you, you should pluck it out. He wasn't speaking literally in any of these instances. His body and blood are symbolically present in the wine and bread but they aren't literally present.

 
Two different issues entirely. Only the rejectionists do not believe the orthodox teaching of the Holy Eucharist. The Apostles believed this, the Early Church Fathers believed this, all of Christendom believed this for hundreds upon hundreds of years. You are simply wrong on this issue.

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #93 on: Sat Sep 29, 2012 - 11:15:57 »
Quote
And shame on you for rejecting the "Real Presence" of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist. The consecrated wafer IS the body of Jesus Christ. The consecrated wine IS likewise His blood. Read carefully the following from 1 Cor 11 24-29
 
And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
There can be no other conclusion that the Eucharist IS indeed the Body and Blood of Our Lord as taught by this passage. It is you who have rejected this basic doctrine coming from the mouth of one of the Apostles and confirmed for all Christendom in later years. Even when the Eastern Church split from the West, they would not dare to question or change this basic fact. Only heretical sects have done this - a theology that you now embrace. I think that is the saddest part of all for people like you who have strayed so far from the truth.

Christ is present where there is an assembly of people!  Christ is present in our hearts, if you are a follower of Christ!  He does not enter the bread.  He enters the heart!  You don't need to be in a building to have Christ in your heart! 
You can be lying in bed and talking to Him - and He is there!  This must be hard for Catholics to comprehend - this simplicity of having Christ - because you guys are so wrapped up with all your rituals and other sidelines of "communication" instead of going straight to Him!

It's like you guys using the pony express when you can always call Him direct.

You take away with your rituals and slew of petitions to your Mary and saints what should belong to God alone.


The bread is a SYMBOL - representing the broken body of Christ - as a memorial conducted in REMEMBRANCE of Christ

It does not become Christ.

The lamb is also a symbol - representing Christ.  Do you kneel down and give thanks before lambs?

On the same token, good thing you brought this up.  If that's how you view a piece of bread - then that must be how you view the crucifix?  Is that why you kneel before it?

Don't you see the idolatry involved? Disguised as something "good?"  When in fact it is the very thing that offends God!  Remember the greatest Commandment of God - according to Jesus?

No. The Eucharist is not just a symbol, therefore I would not kneel down before a lamb. I do not worship the crucifix either, but God Incarnate who willingly placed Himself upon it. It is a reminder of the act, nothing more.  You have been throughly brainwashed into your belief on these issues.

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #94 on: Sat Sep 29, 2012 - 11:24:35 »
Quote
He would say that the Church is obeying God, not Mary. He believes what I believe, what Catholics all over  the world belive.


The blind leading the blind.  You read yet you do not see.  You listen yet you do not hear.


Quote
We are  not like the Baptists, where the 1st Baptist Church differs with the 2nd Baptist Church just down the street. You have anarchy, we have cohesion.


Whoa.  Don't be too sure - Nuns are challenging your Vatican!  Not that I side with anyone - they're still both on wrong side (according to the Scriptures).
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/09/us/catholic-nuns-meet-to-weigh-reply-to-vatican.html

What cohesion are you talking about? Where do you think the protestants came from?  Your awols and deserters turned out not only bitter, angry, and some psychologically damaged....but a lot of them have become atheists!  Your church succeeded in having them turn their backs on God - perhaps that's the hidden agenda!

 
We have cohesion the world over, every Bishop teaches the same theology, if they differ they are apostates.  And the LIBERAL nuns  who are challenging the Vatican  have been appropriately chastised. Either they conform or the can go start their own church and they will cease being of the Latin Rite.

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #95 on: Sat Sep 29, 2012 - 11:28:29 »
Quote
Ladonia:
Only heretical sects have done this - a theology that you now embrace. I think that is the saddest part of all for people like you who have strayed so far from the truth.

You do know that Christians were referred to as a "sect" by the Jews in those days?  Yep, because the Apostles were teaching about the Messiah and correcting the wrong interpretations of the tradition-guided synagogues.

So, what's new about being referred to as a sect by the tradition-guided Catholic Church?

I am not using the word "sect" as a pejorative. I am of the Latin or Western Rite, you could call us the Latin Christian sect if you wanted. It's sad all this seperation has happened, but it is what it is. No problem from me on this one.

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #96 on: Sat Sep 29, 2012 - 11:35:41 »
Ok, I shall answer youn point by point. You have received some erroneous information as to what the Church teaches as regards "praying to Mary" or the Saints in heaven for that matter. We do not pray to Mary or worship her as you have claimed. We ask her to "pray for us", just as you can ask me to pray for you.

Do I do a novena to you that you may pray for me?  Do I pray to you that you may pray for me?
Do I kneel down to you and sing you hymns?  Do I wear your scapulars?
Do I exalt and glorify your name - or do I have medals that bear your image, or banners that bear your name so that you may pray for me? 
The Catholic Church tries to justify all these man-made (or even perhaps devil-inspired) rituals and forms of idolatry.  If it looks like a duck, talks like a duck and walks like a duck....it is a duck!
 
Quote
She, like all the dearly departed are not dead, but like the Scriptures say, is stll "alive in Christ". Therfore, they who are now with Christ can petition Him directly. Now, you probably reject that teaching also, but it is what it is.

You keep referring to scriptures....I want you to cite those scriptures!  Which specific verse???

Alive in Christ - all Christians who follow Christ are alive in Christ!  From being spiritually dead, we've come to life!  Perhaps that's why Mary of the Bible instructed all of us to DO WHATEVER HE TELLS YOU!  Because that's the key to all, isn't it?

 
Quote
Even though you have cited those words above, we know that Jesus still loved His mother,

I don't think anyone is saying that Jesus didn't love His mother. 

He even humored her - obliging her request -  when she requested His help at the wedding in Cana.  He performed His miracle even if it wasn't yet the time for Him to do so.  That incident in Cana is one of the biggest justification the Catholic Church uses as an argument!  That, since God gave in to Mary, therefore He'll be giving in at her other requests - thus she can effectively intercedes for us. But apparently, that's not so.  Says Jesus.
 
Quote
so much so that at the foot of the Cross, He gave her to John for safekeeping. Had he not cared for her, he would not of thought of her at that time and would have just abandoned her

You have to remember that Jesus was human.  In those days....being women, widows were very vulnerable.  They have to have someone to look after them.  What good son will not want to ensure he leaves his mother in good hands knowing he is dying?  That was Jesus, as a human....expressing human emotions!
 
Quote
In that passage He was making some other point. He still believed that He should honor His mother as per one of the Ten Commandments.

Yes, being a good son, He has to honor her.  Honoring someone is very much different from praying to someone.  Let's bring up that passage again.

Matthew 12 KJV
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.


See that highlighted part?   That's the key phrase: OBEDIENCE TO GOD!  He likened followers of God to be his brethren (like his mother and siblings - therefore, no special distinction that separates them from followers of God! I guess he squashed the idea of nepotism!)

Jesus was not shunning earth family, don't get me wrong.  What Jesus was saying is that all those who follow God are His family.

What  point do you think He makes in that passage? 

Quote

Catholics believe in tradition because it is one of the ways to continue on with all that was given us.

Is this the same passage in the Catholic Bible?  I pray you  read this Scripture carefully.
 
Quote
Matt 15
That Which Defiles15
Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”
3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’
5 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’
6 they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8“‘These people honor me with their lips,
    but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain;
    their teachings are merely human rules
.

How many traditions being followed by the Catholic Church nullify the Word of God?  Don't you see the big point here, Ladonia?

What kind of  christian church disobeys the teachings of Christ?  That's why we're called Christians - meaning followers of Christ.  What is it that makes one a follower of Christ?  Following His teachings!

Anyone, or any church that doesn't follow the teachings of Christ is not a Christian Church.  It may pretend to be....or delude itself to be...but it is not!  You are being misled!


Quote
We worship on Sunday because it was the "tradition" for the new Christian Church to do this. Baby boys are circumcised at birth to continue the tradition which was done by God's chosen people, the Jews. And we do it because St Paul tells us to "hold fast" to them. Yes, we continue on with traditions because we are commanded to.

Cite that passage given by Paul.  If I'm not mistaken, Paul was the one who argued with the elders against traditions they wanted to impose on gentiles - such as circumcision, among other things!  Cite! 
 


 


I could quote scripture after scripture to buttress my claim, but to what end? You will only disagree with the Church's interpretation of them, like you did when I cited the passage about the Holy Eucharist. You have a new interpretation of the Scriptures now and have been throughly indoctrinated as an "orthodox rejectionist", accepting this theology with your free will. I can't change you, only the Holy Spirit can.

Offline Snargles

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #97 on: Sat Sep 29, 2012 - 15:56:50 »

Two different issues entirely. Only the rejectionists do not believe the orthodox teaching of the Holy Eucharist. The Apostles believed this, the Early Church Fathers believed this, all of Christendom believed this for hundreds upon hundreds of years. You are simply wrong on this issue.
Call me a rejectionist then.
Transubstatiation, original sin and apostolic succession all come from the same scholastic reasoning favored by Thomas Aquanis and Peter Abelard. It made sense to them at the time but the basic philosophy would never be accepted today outside of the Catholic church. I don't dispute that millions of people over close to 2000 years have felt that Jesus was physically present in the Lords Supper but it doesn't bother me to say that they were all wrong and that I have a better understanding of scripture than they did.
 
The reason that Catholics and Protestants can never agree is that we are using different rules. You think that theology can be built on the teaching of the church fathers and that the pope and the hierarchy of the Catholic church continue to have the authority to interpret scripture today. I, and all the people I will be sitting with tomorrow morning, think that when John set down his pen after writing the last verse of Revelation, inspiration stopped and we had all the information we need to get to heaven. We disagree on how to interpret the word, hence all the different denominations, but it is within all of us to study and come up with the correct answers if try hard enough. The only time I have ever heard one of the church fathers quoted in worship or Bible study was when I was teaching the class. Most of the people I worship with have never heard of any of the fathers except for Augustine and they would consider him to be some Catholic author (and therefore not to be trusted) from sometime in the past. When Catholics and Protestants discuss religion it is like trying to play baseball using a football rules book. We will never agree.
 
Some of the posters (perhaps you) have said that the Catholic church decided what books would be in the canon of scripture. I prefer to think that God decided what books would be included and he worked through a church council to make it happen. Another issue that is frequently brought up is that Paul said to follow the traditions that "we have given you." "We" means Paul and his fellow apostles. I follow their traditions but not the traditions of men that followed them. Protestants are criticized for having many divisions. I agree this is wrong but don't criticize all Protestants because of the errors of some. The Catholic church also split into East and West and the RC church has had splits with Old Catholics, Liberation Theology Catholics, Anglo Catholics and We-Dont-Like Vatican II-Catholics. You have said that you don't worship Mary and I believe you. However, it seems that many Catholics do.
This last section is a real mixed bag of thoughts but I had been trying to not get too involved in this discussion but I just couldn't hold it in anymore. I think you are sincere and doing your best to follow scripture but you, and millions like you, including some Protestants, are wrong.

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #98 on: Sun Sep 30, 2012 - 00:15:23 »

Two different issues entirely. Only the rejectionists do not believe the orthodox teaching of the Holy Eucharist. The Apostles believed this, the Early Church Fathers believed this, all of Christendom believed this for hundreds upon hundreds of years. You are simply wrong on this issue.
Call me a rejectionist then.
Transubstatiation, original sin and apostolic succession all come from the same scholastic reasoning favored by Thomas Aquanis and Peter Abelard. It made sense to them at the time but the basic philosophy would never be accepted today outside of the Catholic church. I don't dispute that millions of people over close to 2000 years have felt that Jesus was physically present in the Lords Supper but it doesn't bother me to say that they were all wrong and that I have a better understanding of scripture than they did.
 
The reason that Catholics and Protestants can never agree is that we are using different rules. You think that theology can be built on the teaching of the church fathers and that the pope and the hierarchy of the Catholic church continue to have the authority to interpret scripture today. I, and all the people I will be sitting with tomorrow morning, think that when John set down his pen after writing the last verse of Revelation, inspiration stopped and we had all the information we need to get to heaven. We disagree on how to interpret the word, hence all the different denominations, but it is within all of us to study and come up with the correct answers if try hard enough. The only time I have ever heard one of the church fathers quoted in worship or Bible study was when I was teaching the class. Most of the people I worship with have never heard of any of the fathers except for Augustine and they would consider him to be some Catholic author (and therefore not to be trusted) from sometime in the past. When Catholics and Protestants discuss religion it is like trying to play baseball using a football rules book. We will never agree.
 
Some of the posters (perhaps you) have said that the Catholic church decided what books would be in the canon of scripture. I prefer to think that God decided what books would be included and he worked through a church council to make it happen. Another issue that is frequently brought up is that Paul said to follow the traditions that "we have given you." "We" means Paul and his fellow apostles. I follow their traditions but not the traditions of men that followed them. Protestants are criticized for having many divisions. I agree this is wrong but don't criticize all Protestants because of the errors of some. The Catholic church also split into East and West and the RC church has had splits with Old Catholics, Liberation Theology Catholics, Anglo Catholics and We-Dont-Like Vatican II-Catholics. You have said that you don't worship Mary and I believe you. However, it seems that many Catholics do.
This last section is a real mixed bag of thoughts but I had been trying to not get too involved in this discussion but I just couldn't hold it in anymore. I think you are sincere and doing your best to follow scripture but you, and millions like you, including some Protestants, are wrong.

You said: "It made sense to them at the time but the basic philosophy would never be accepted today outside of the Catholic church." Forgive me if I am wrong, but don't our Eastern Orthodox bretheren accept this basic philosophy ?
 
As for the rest of your post, I thought you put it all very well.

Offline betsy

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #99 on: Sun Sep 30, 2012 - 04:57:57 »
Quote
Ladonia:
Two different issues entirely. Only the rejectionists do not believe the orthodox teaching of the Holy Eucharist. The Apostles believed this, the Early Church Fathers believed this, all of Christendom believed this for hundreds upon hundreds of years. You are simply wrong on this issue.


You're making a serious claim - "the Apostles believed this" - where do you base your claim?  Cite the Scripture!  Plain claims made by your church is not acceptable in this discussion since it is the interpretation of your church that's being challenged!  CITE from the Scriptures!  Don't just repeat what your preists tell you.

Below is an article about the Orthodox teachings of the Eucharist.  I have to post the entire article as condition for the permission.  I have divided it though in segments for easy reading.

Quote
The Orthodox Eucharist Is Not the Lord’s Supper
Note from Berean Beacon: This article is adapted from the book: Eastern Orthodoxy Illuminated by the Scriptures (Curent: Belgrade, 2009), written by Serbian author, Ivica Stamenkovic. His research is based upon Holy Scripture, as well as primary Orthodox sources. Future articles will further examine in detail other Eastern Orthodox teachings on salvation.

Jesus Christ commanded His followers to observe the Lord’s Supper as a symbolic remembrance of His life and sacrifice on behalf of humankind’s sins. Thus precisely He said, “take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you.”1 The exact Greek verb that the Lord used clearly indicated just a comparison of the bread to His body simply a metaphor as we will see later.2 However Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism go further and believe that the bread is the literal body of Jesus Christ and the wine is the literal blood of Jesus Christ. Furthermore, Eastern Orthodoxy claims that anyone who partakes the bread and the wine receives eternal life and salvation through the physical Eucharist. Two Orthodox theologians explain,
“May Christ live forever in the Orthodox Christian Church! The high priestly ministry of the redemption of Jesus Christ continues without interruption. ... During every Holy Liturgy, the priest offers the consecrated bread (the Holy Lamb of God) and wine, which become the righteous Body and Blood of Christ, the Savior. This faith that the bread and wine are transformed into the Body and Blood of the Lord comprise the entire foundation of the Orthodox Church.”3
“The Mystery of the Holy Eucharist is performed on a daily basis in the sacramental sacrifices in Orthodox temples. Christ did this to enable us to have spiritual union with him in the Sacrament of the Eucharist... The Holy Eucharist is the greatest treasure a Christian can possess... The Holy Eucharist gives spiritual rebirth to a person. This is the experience for Christian saints.”4


This paper will demonstrate that what Eastern Orthodoxy teaches in its sacrament of the “Holy Eucharist” is not in accord with Christ’s own teaching on the Lord’s Supper. Jesus Christ revealed the meaning of the Old Testament Passover as concerning His atonement for His people’s sins. The Bible shows that a true believer, who is already in fellowship with Christ through His one-time atoning death on the cross, simply celebrates this existing reality.

1 I Corinthians 11:24
2 The Greek word used by the Holy Spirit in this context is “eimi” as a copula, which indicates that the subject is to be compared to the thing expressed by the predicate. It is not “ginomai” meaning to become, i.e. “to come into existence” or simply “to become”, as was the meaning when the Lord changed water into wine in John 2:9 “the water that was made wine”.
3 Catechism in the Home, 45, 47. The text cited above informs us that Orthodoxy, via rituals, is the continuation of Jesus’ ministry of atonement. In contrast, the New Testament reveals that Christ’s ministry of atonement was finished once and for all after He ascended to Heaven. No one, not the Lord, nor His apostles ever taught that His ministry of redemption still “continues without interruption.” (See Hebrews 7:27, 9:11, 10:10, 12, 14.)
4 The Greatest Teacher, 254-6. Author’s emphasis. This text mentions “the sacramental sacrifices in Orthodox churches” in the liturgy. Nowhere does the New Testament teach this doctrine.
Partaking of the Lord’s Supper does not endow a believer with “spiritual rebirth.” A true believer has already been born again.

Furthermore, the evidence of Holy Scripture and church history teaches us that the teaching of “transubstantiation”5 was introduced in the Church many centuries after Christ’s apostles died. Eastern Orthodoxy presumes that the first disciples did not understand Christ’s word. This presupposition in fact comprises the very foundation of the Orthodox Church.

The Bible Teaching on the Lord’s Supper
We read the explanation of the Lord’s Supper in the gospel of Luke,
“And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer: For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.”6

Jesus Christ was teaching during the last Passover supper. It is critical to remember that He was speaking using a metaphor, which is a figure of speech. It is similar to how He taught on other occasions: “I am the door,”7 “I am the good shepherd,”8 “I am the way,”9 “I am the true vine,”10 “I am the light of the world.” 11

The Scripture teaches six things about the Last Supper.
(1)
This event took place on the eve of Jesus Christ’s arrest.
(2)
In addition to other foods prepared for the Passover feast unleavened bread and wine were placed on the table for the Lord and His disciples.
(3)
Christ compared the bread to His body: “This is my body.”
(4)
Christ took the cup of wine and said, “This is my new covenant with you in My blood, which will be shed for you.”
(5)
Christ commanded His disciples to keep this ordinance regularly and repeatedly, in remembrance of Him, that is, His sacrifice on Calvary.
5 Transubstantiation means the literal transformation of the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ - despite the fact that the external forms of bread and wine still remain. Eastern Orthodoxy often uses other terms such as “transmutation” and “trans-elementation”.
6 Luke 22:14-20. Author’s emphasis.
7 John 10:7
8 John 10:11
9 John 14:6
10 John 15:1
11 John 8:12 2
(6)
Christ affirmed that the cup is “the fruit of the vine”, that is, wine.

Nowhere does Christ teach the transformation of the bread and wine into His physical body and blood, nor does He command His disciples in the future to make such “transformation”.

The Apostle Paul has the same teaching of Christ regarding the Lord’s Supper. He wrote,
“For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.”12

The Apostle Paul reiterates many of Christ’s teachings. He also declares in the context of who can participate; i.e., believers who already have been born again and why; i.e., to remember the atoning death of Christ and His future return for believers. By eating the bread and taking the wine, believers in Christ celebrate the Lord’s death. This means that Christians testify both to believers and unbelievers of their faith in the redemptive work of Christ for their salvation. Again, the Apostle Paul does not teach that the bread literally becomes Christ’s flesh or the cup becomes Christ's blood.
 


http://www.bereanbeacon.org/eastern_orthodoxy/sorted/04_Problems_in_Eastern_Orthodoxy/The_Orthodox_Eucharist_Is_not_the_Lords_Supper.pdf
« Last Edit: Sun Sep 30, 2012 - 05:23:32 by betsy »

Offline betsy

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #100 on: Sun Sep 30, 2012 - 05:28:41 »
Continuation of article:


Quote
Jesus Christ’s Teaching about Spiritual Feeding in John 6
One text frequently used by Orthodox to defend the bread and wine turning into the literal flesh and blood of Christ is John 6. The verses usually used are the following,
“Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live forever.” 13

If understood literally, rather than figuratively, this statement would sound truly repulsive and shocking. A literal interpretation of the words of Jesus would compare Him with the worst kind of pagan worship in which the participants drank the blood of their victims and thus considered themselves to have received the life of another person. However, Christ never could have commanded His listeners to eat His literal body and drink His literal blood in order to gain eternal life, although many of those who heard Him had such an interpretation.
12 1 Corinthians 11:23-6. Author’s emphasis.
13 John 6:53-58. Author’s emphasis.
3
Nevertheless, the Lord spoke this entire message with gravity. It was intended to demonstrate that His disciples implicitly believed in His words, even if they could not understand them fully at the time, or even if other listeners did not trust in Jesus as the Christ. Of course, the message was more than clear to those who were seeking spiritual truth. What happened next was a perfectly logical outcome. Thus the account continues,
“Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, this is an hard saying; who can hear it? … From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.” 14

The key to understanding this dialogue with Christ is the correct spiritual application of His metaphors for His body as “real food” and His blood as “real drink”. The Lord explained just how His words were to be understood;
“This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live forever... It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”15

The doctrine of Christ Jesus’ body and blood being literally in bread and wine, profits nothing, but rather leads a person into a most serious mistake. In contrast to Jesus Christ’s clarity of His explanation of how His words are “spirit and life,” Orthodoxy still alleges that Christ taught transubstantiation. There are two problems with such an interpretation,
(1)
Orthodoxy believes the literal interpretation of John 6 faces a serious dilemma. If both the ‘eating and drinking’ and ‘believing in Jesus’ produce the same result, i.e. eternal life, what if a person ‘believes’ but does not ‘eat or drink? Or what if a person ‘eats and drinks’ but does not ‘believe?’ Does that person have eternal life because he met one of the requirements but not the other?
(2)
The Lord God forbids anyone from consuming the blood of a sacrifice. If Jesus Christ were teaching the multitudes to literally drink His blood, He would be teaching them to disobey God as written in Scripture.16
Nowhere does the Bible teach that a person acquires eternal life merely through partaking of the bread and wine. Rather, Jesus Christ in John 6 teaches that His words bring any person the message of how to have eternal life through faith in Him.17
14 John 6:60, 66.
15 John 6:58, 63. Author’s emphasis.
16 For example, Leviticus 17:10, “And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people.”
17 See Ephesians 2:8-9.


http://www.bereanbeacon.org/eastern_orthodoxy/sorted/04_Problems_in_Eastern_Orthodoxy/The_Orthodox_Eucharist_Is_not_the_Lords_Supper.pdf
« Last Edit: Sun Sep 30, 2012 - 05:37:21 by betsy »

Offline betsy

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #101 on: Sun Sep 30, 2012 - 05:32:30 »
Continuation of article....

Quote
The Origin of Transubstantiation Came Not from Christ but from Men

The doctrine of transubstantiation evolved to its stature today in the Eastern Orthodox Church over many centuries after the death of Christ’s apostles. This fact completely refutes the claims of people who allege that the doctrine of transubstantiation was taught in the first century. It is an historical fact that this doctrine first arose in the ninth century. In 831 A.D., a Catholic Benedictine monk named Paschasius Radbert published a treatise, “Concerning the Body and Blood of Christ.” He held that the bread and wine used in the Lord’s Supper were by consecration converted into the body and blood of the Lord Jesus Christ, and were actually the same body and blood as was born of the Virgin Mary. This new doctrine aroused consternation among many and evoked opposition from church leaders such as Rabanus, Heribald, and Johannes Scotus. Nonetheless, the new doctrine fermented and grew in the Roman Catholic Church. Finally, the notion of “transubstantiation” was officially proclaimed as a dogma of faith—necessary for salvation—at the Lateran Council under Pope Innocent III in 1215 AD.18 Not until the 15th Century did the Eastern Orthodox churches fully adopt transubstantiation; in other words, it was over one thousand years after Christ!19 Today, both Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism teach this unbiblical doctrine.


Conclusion
Jesus Christ taught the original Christian Church to celebrate His atoning death for believers’ sins through partaking in the Lord’s Supper. In contrast to the present-day teachings of Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, Jesus Christ never taught that the bread and wine literally became His flesh and blood for believers to imbibe.
Putting one’s faith in Who Christ is along with obeying Him in accordance with God’s will is the core message of Jesus Christ’ teaching. Every believer, who from the heart is united with the Lord, is nourished by spiritual bread from heaven and never starves. Whoever by grace believes in Jesus Christ’s redemptive sacrifice and follows Him as his Lord is one who partakes of the drink from heaven and will never thirst for anything to quench that spiritual dryness.

 Jesus Christ clearly asserts that His words are akin to bread from heaven that we should eat, just “as your forefathers ate in the wilderness.” The manna from heaven that the Israelites of the Old Testament ate in the wilderness could prolong their life only for a short time, because it was mere physical bread. In contrast, the words of the Son of God are “spirit and life.” Consequently, the words of Jesus Christ should not be understood as literal food, but rather believed on in a spiritual way.

18 More details concerning the teaching of Paschasius Radbert are found in John Dowling’s The History of Romanism, Classic Reprints No. 57 (Pensacola, FL 32524: Vance Publications, 2002) Book 4, Ch. 2, p. 194.
19 See Serbian Orthodox historian Eusebius Popovic, General Church History, Vol. 1, 799-800.
5
6
Once a sinner is convicted that he is dead in trespasses and sin, and knows that without Christ he will eternally perish, he will promptly and gladly believe on Christ alone for salvation. As the Holy Spirit teaches you . . . express your heartfelt belief directly to God; then, as you trust on Jesus Christ alone you will indeed know that you have partaken of the One who is eternal life! “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”20 Thus all who so believe and trusts in Him are found in Jesus Christ.21 This truth proves the unbreakable bond of Christian fellowship with the Lord God forever.


Berean Beacon Ministry: http://www.bereanbeacon.org
Orthodoxy folder: http://www.bereanbeacon.org/eastern_orthodoxy.php
Permission is given by ministry to copy this article if it is done in its entirety without any changes. Permission is also given to post this article in its entirety on Internet WebPages.
2o John
« Last Edit: Sun Sep 30, 2012 - 05:38:31 by betsy »

Offline betsy

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #102 on: Sun Sep 30, 2012 - 05:57:18 »
Ladonia, don't you even wonder about the Catholic Church?  Why does its teachings go against the Scriptures? 
Why is it so full of idolatries?   Rituals and traditions of men? 

Why do you have such a thing called, indulgences?   

Isn't it weird that the church who talks so much about sinning and atoning was also the church who committed the most evil? 
Such as the Inquisition? 
The Vatican - in cahoots with Hitler - and the persecution of Jews?
The Vatican's handling of the wide-spread homosexuality and child molestation in its churches and schools/orphanages all over the world?


If the reason why you're a Catholic is simply to follow the traditions that's been handed down to you....would you call that, faith?

If however, your goal is salvation - you do owe it to yourself to find the truth. 

Offline betsy

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #103 on: Sun Sep 30, 2012 - 06:02:58 »
Quote
Ladonia

I could quote scripture after scripture to buttress my claim, but to what end? You will only disagree with the Church's interpretation of them, like you did when I cited the passage about the Holy Eucharist. You have a new interpretation of the Scriptures now and have been throughly indoctrinated as an "orthodox rejectionist", accepting this theology with your free will. I can't change you, only the Holy Spirit can.

Why do you think I'm challenging you to cite the Scriptures to support your claim(s)? 

Because I know you can't. 

There is nothing in the Bible that supports all the things that your church is doing that goes against the teachings of Christ!  As simple as that.

That alone ought to make you question your church.  It identifies itself as a Christian church yet its teachings goes against the teachings of Christ - and are direct disobedience to God.  Makes you wonder who's behind all that.
« Last Edit: Sun Sep 30, 2012 - 06:58:54 by betsy »

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Catholic curious about Baptist faith
« Reply #104 on: Sun Sep 30, 2012 - 08:42:47 »
Quote
Ladonia:
Two different issues entirely. Only the rejectionists do not believe the orthodox teaching of the Holy Eucharist. The Apostles believed this, the Early Church Fathers believed this, all of Christendom believed this for hundreds upon hundreds of years. You are simply wrong on this issue.


You're making a serious claim - "the Apostles believed this" - where do you base your claim?  Cite the Scripture!  Plain claims made by your church is not acceptable in this discussion since it is the interpretation of your church that's being challenged!  CITE from the Scriptures!  Don't just repeat what your preists tell you.

Below is an article about the Orthodox teachings of the Eucharist.  I have to post the entire article as condition for the permission.  I have divided it though in segments for easy reading.

Quote
The Orthodox Eucharist Is Not the Lord’s Supper
Note from Berean Beacon: This article is adapted from the book: Eastern Orthodoxy Illuminated by the Scriptures (Curent: Belgrade, 2009), written by Serbian author, Ivica Stamenkovic. His research is based upon Holy Scripture, as well as primary Orthodox sources. Future articles will further examine in detail other Eastern Orthodox teachings on salvation.

Jesus Christ commanded His followers to observe the Lord’s Supper as a symbolic remembrance of His life and sacrifice on behalf of humankind’s sins. Thus precisely He said, “take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you.”1 The exact Greek verb that the Lord used clearly indicated just a comparison of the bread to His body simply a metaphor as we will see later.2 However Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism go further and believe that the bread is the literal body of Jesus Christ and the wine is the literal blood of Jesus Christ. Furthermore, Eastern Orthodoxy claims that anyone who partakes the bread and the wine receives eternal life and salvation through the physical Eucharist. Two Orthodox theologians explain,
“May Christ live forever in the Orthodox Christian Church! The high priestly ministry of the redemption of Jesus Christ continues without interruption. ... During every Holy Liturgy, the priest offers the consecrated bread (the Holy Lamb of God) and wine, which become the righteous Body and Blood of Christ, the Savior. This faith that the bread and wine are transformed into the Body and Blood of the Lord comprise the entire foundation of the Orthodox Church.”3
“The Mystery of the Holy Eucharist is performed on a daily basis in the sacramental sacrifices in Orthodox temples. Christ did this to enable us to have spiritual union with him in the Sacrament of the Eucharist... The Holy Eucharist is the greatest treasure a Christian can possess... The Holy Eucharist gives spiritual rebirth to a person. This is the experience for Christian saints.”4


This paper will demonstrate that what Eastern Orthodoxy teaches in its sacrament of the “Holy Eucharist” is not in accord with Christ’s own teaching on the Lord’s Supper. Jesus Christ revealed the meaning of the Old Testament Passover as concerning His atonement for His people’s sins. The Bible shows that a true believer, who is already in fellowship with Christ through His one-time atoning death on the cross, simply celebrates this existing reality.

1 I Corinthians 11:24
2 The Greek word used by the Holy Spirit in this context is “eimi” as a copula, which indicates that the subject is to be compared to the thing expressed by the predicate. It is not “ginomai” meaning to become, i.e. “to come into existence” or simply “to become”, as was the meaning when the Lord changed water into wine in John 2:9 “the water that was made wine”.
3 Catechism in the Home, 45, 47. The text cited above informs us that Orthodoxy, via rituals, is the continuation of Jesus’ ministry of atonement. In contrast, the New Testament reveals that Christ’s ministry of atonement was finished once and for all after He ascended to Heaven. No one, not the Lord, nor His apostles ever taught that His ministry of redemption still “continues without interruption.” (See Hebrews 7:27, 9:11, 10:10, 12, 14.)
4 The Greatest Teacher, 254-6. Author’s emphasis. This text mentions “the sacramental sacrifices in Orthodox churches” in the liturgy. Nowhere does the New Testament teach this doctrine.
Partaking of the Lord’s Supper does not endow a believer with “spiritual rebirth.” A true believer has already been born again.

Furthermore, the evidence of Holy Scripture and church history teaches us that the teaching of “transubstantiation”5 was introduced in the Church many centuries after Christ’s apostles died. Eastern Orthodoxy presumes that the first disciples did not understand Christ’s word. This presupposition in fact comprises the very foundation of the Orthodox Church.

The Bible Teaching on the Lord’s Supper
We read the explanation of the Lord’s Supper in the gospel of Luke,
“And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer: For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.”6

Jesus Christ was teaching during the last Passover supper. It is critical to remember that He was speaking using a metaphor, which is a figure of speech. It is similar to how He taught on other occasions: “I am the door,”7 “I am the good shepherd,”8 “I am the way,”9 “I am the true vine,”10 “I am the light of the world.” 11

The Scripture teaches six things about the Last Supper.
(1)
This event took place on the eve of Jesus Christ’s arrest.
(2)
In addition to other foods prepared for the Passover feast unleavened bread and wine were placed on the table for the Lord and His disciples.
(3)
Christ compared the bread to His body: “This is my body.”
(4)
Christ took the cup of wine and said, “This is my new covenant with you in My blood, which will be shed for you.”
(5)
Christ commanded His disciples to keep this ordinance regularly and repeatedly, in remembrance of Him, that is, His sacrifice on Calvary.
5 Transubstantiation means the literal transformation of the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ - despite the fact that the external forms of bread and wine still remain. Eastern Orthodoxy often uses other terms such as “transmutation” and “trans-elementation”.
6 Luke 22:14-20. Author’s emphasis.
7 John 10:7
8 John 10:11
9 John 14:6
10 John 15:1
11 John 8:12 2
(6)
Christ affirmed that the cup is “the fruit of the vine”, that is, wine.

Nowhere does Christ teach the transformation of the bread and wine into His physical body and blood, nor does He command His disciples in the future to make such “transformation”.

The Apostle Paul has the same teaching of Christ regarding the Lord’s Supper. He wrote,
“For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.”12

The Apostle Paul reiterates many of Christ’s teachings. He also declares in the context of who can participate; i.e., believers who already have been born again and why; i.e., to remember the atoning death of Christ and His future return for believers. By eating the bread and taking the wine, believers in Christ celebrate the Lord’s death. This means that Christians testify both to believers and unbelievers of their faith in the redemptive work of Christ for their salvation. Again, the Apostle Paul does not teach that the bread literally becomes Christ’s flesh or the cup becomes Christ's blood. 


http://www.bereanbeacon.org/eastern_orthodoxy/sorted/04_Problems_in_Eastern_Orthodoxy/The_Orthodox_Eucharist_Is_not_the_Lords_Supper.pdf


 
Betsy, Betsy, Betsy. Now you have to quote a rejectionist from the Eastern Orthodox Church? The Eastern Orthodox Church continues to hold fast to the seven sacraments, in particular the "Real Presence" of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist.  The "paper" you cite itself first describes the Eastern Orthodox teaching regarding this. As as addendum, the following is a statement of their belief concerning this  fact posted on their website the Eastern Orthodox Church of North America written by one of their priests, the Rev George Manstrantonis. www.goarch.org
 

THE MYSTERION OF THE HOLY EUCHARIST The most awesome ceremony in the Orthodox Church is the Mysterion (sacrament) of the Holy Eucharist. This ceremony was instituted by Jesus Christ the day before His Crucifixion, as He enriched His Church forever with the Divine Gifts, His own Body and Blood. This ceremony of the Holy Eucharist is both His sacrifice for the salvation of man and a sacred mysterion. The Holy Eucharist is the seal of the proclamation of the communion with God. It is the only Sacrament offered by the Church in which the elements of bread and wine not only carry the Grace of God, as a mysterion, but are "changed" into and "are" the very Body and the very Blood of Christ, being a propitiatory sacrifice.

The institution of the Holy Eucharist is recorded in Matthew (26:26-28), Mark (14:22-24), Luke (22:19-20), and in First Corinthians (11:23-35). Jesus, during that night of the Mystic Supper, took bread, and blessed it, and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, and said:
"Take, and eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." (Matt. 26:26-28).

This awesome sacrifice has been entrusted to the Church to be re-enacted and given to the faithful for the nourishment of their faith and the forgiveness of their sins in remembrance of the Lord. The Orthodox Church maintains the practice of the early Church of giving both the Body and the Blood of Christ to all communicants, both clergymen and laymen. Spiritual preparation is necessary for the recipient "to prove himself"; otherwise, he "eateth...damnation to himself" (1 Cor. 11:29; cf. 1 Cor. 11:23-33). For the officiation of the Holy Eucharist, the Orthodox Church has four liturgies. That of St. Chrysostom is the most used.

So, we now know what Eastern Orthodoxy teaches and that they have their rejectionists also. I proudly stand with the Eastern Orthodox Church on the validity of the seven sacraments and the "Real Presence " of Our Lord Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist.
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