Author Topic: Justification by Faith and Sound Doctrine  (Read 12175 times)

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Offline IlliniPastor

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Justification by Faith and Sound Doctrine
« on: Fri Jan 30, 2009 - 09:26:06 »
I am currently at a new Pastorate and have noticed through the past few years that the Church is becoming increasingly ignorant of basic doctrine. I personally fall into reformed category (Calvinism) and have been Arminian (Free Will) for most of my career. I think that people just do not understand the Faith like they should. As an example most Baptists hold to eternal security, but do they know why they do? Do people truly understand what justification by faith really is? I have decided to spend the next few months teaching our adults basic doctrine and I am trying to make it very interactive. Any thoughts from other Baptists or Calvinists?

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Justification by Faith and Sound Doctrine
« on: Fri Jan 30, 2009 - 09:26:06 »

Offline Bonnie

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Re: Justification by Faith and Sound Doctrine
« Reply #1 on: Sun Feb 01, 2009 - 20:09:43 »
I am currently at a new Pastorate and have noticed through the past few years that the Church is becoming increasingly ignorant of basic doctrine. I personally fall into reformed category (Calvinism) and have been Arminian (Free Will) for most of my career. I think that people just do not understand the Faith like they should. As an example most Baptists hold to eternal security, but do they know why they do? Do people truly understand what justification by faith really is? I have decided to spend the next few months teaching our adults basic doctrine and I am trying to make it very interactive. Any thoughts from other Baptists or Calvinists?


I agree from what I know of the Baptist in my area that most don't understand why they believe like they do.  There's a definite lack of teaching and watered down gospel has become the norm.  Showing up for Sunday services seems to be at the top of the list whether they know a Bible verse or not or ever say a prayer.
I believe in free will but I love my Calvinists' brothers and sisters.

Offline IlliniPastor

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Re: Justification by Faith and Sound Doctrine
« Reply #2 on: Tue Feb 10, 2009 - 15:03:48 »
I am currently at a new Pastorate and have noticed through the past few years that the Church is becoming increasingly ignorant of basic doctrine. I personally fall into reformed category (Calvinism) and have been Arminian (Free Will) for most of my career. I think that people just do not understand the Faith like they should. As an example most Baptists hold to eternal security, but do they know why they do? Do people truly understand what justification by faith really is? I have decided to spend the next few months teaching our adults basic doctrine and I am trying to make it very interactive. Any thoughts from other Baptists or Calvinists?


I agree from what I know of the Baptist in my area that most don't understand why they believe like they do.  There's a definite lack of teaching and watered down gospel has become the norm.  Showing up for Sunday services seems to be at the top of the list whether they know a Bible verse or not or ever say a prayer.
I believe in free will but I love my Calvinists' brothers and sisters.



I don't know what the answer is at this point, but I think that any Pastor staying somewhere for at least 5-10 years with a desire to teach the basics is a good place to start.

Offline Bonnie

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Re: Justification by Faith and Sound Doctrine
« Reply #3 on: Tue Feb 10, 2009 - 16:39:15 »
I am currently at a new Pastorate and have noticed through the past few years that the Church is becoming increasingly ignorant of basic doctrine. I personally fall into reformed category (Calvinism) and have been Arminian (Free Will) for most of my career. I think that people just do not understand the Faith like they should. As an example most Baptists hold to eternal security, but do they know why they do? Do people truly understand what justification by faith really is? I have decided to spend the next few months teaching our adults basic doctrine and I am trying to make it very interactive. Any thoughts from other Baptists or Calvinists?


I agree from what I know of the Baptist in my area that most don't understand why they believe like they do.  There's a definite lack of teaching and watered down gospel has become the norm.  Showing up for Sunday services seems to be at the top of the list whether they know a Bible verse or not or ever say a prayer.
I believe in free will but I love my Calvinists' brothers and sisters.



I don't know what the answer is at this point, but I think that any Pastor staying somewhere for at least 5-10 years with a desire to teach the basics is a good place to start.


I've always heard that if there's no fire in the pulpit, there will be none in the church.  Yet do people have an excuse for not doing what they should? I don't believe so.  I believe it's characteristic of "the blind leading the blind."


Blessings

Offline Donnzy

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Re: Justification by Faith and Sound Doctrine
« Reply #4 on: Wed Feb 11, 2009 - 14:46:44 »
I used to be in alot of bondage. I was raised in church and always thought it was law. Idont know exactly what happened but i think God turned me over to satan. But everytime i sinned he was there in my face showing me i didnt meausure up. At first when he showed me my faults the harder i tried to meausure up. After about 2 years of this I finally reached a point where i said i couldnt do this anymore and i had come across a scripture where i was just dust(human and going to sin) and he didnt want to destroy me, and also where he was the rock. So I decided that i wud trust Jesus the rock for slvation instead of trying and being crushed by him.  I guess what i went through was and act of toughlove. Hate to sound like a wuss but it was a very stressfull experience. I was about ready for a straightjacket after this. It took a year for him to strenghten me back up. now I do what I want when I want I live a Free life. It feels so good not to live life with strings attached. All he wants us to do is trust him then he saves us or salvation is complete. Nothing will ever change that.

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Re: Justification by Faith and Sound Doctrine
« Reply #4 on: Wed Feb 11, 2009 - 14:46:44 »



Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Justification by Faith and Sound Doctrine
« Reply #5 on: Wed Feb 11, 2009 - 16:25:01 »
I'm confused.  You said you were Calvinist, then you said you believe in Free Will...which one is it?

Offline bujitz

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Re: Justification by Faith and Sound Doctrine
« Reply #6 on: Fri Mar 27, 2009 - 07:30:58 »
hi guys. I think we Christians should not be labeling ourselves as calvinist or whatever. Calvin is not our god. Though we do agree in Calvin's Theology  we are still Christians brothers and sisters...

Offline StanleyTruelove

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Re: Justification by Faith and Sound Doctrine
« Reply #7 on: Mon Jun 08, 2009 - 16:51:22 »
I have also noticed a tremendous lack of knowledge in today's churches.  I believe the vault may lie in the many religion schools whose graduates seem to only teach the very basics of faith.  More to the solution, however, in my SS class I helped teach a series on Christian growth based on 2Peter 1:5-9.

"2Peter 1:5  And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6  And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7  And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8  For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9  But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins."

To summarize, the vast majority of faith teaching comes from the basis of virtue (doing good or doing evil) and never advances to knowledge or other categories that we are told to add to our existing faith.  Virtue is the basic foundation level and we add to our virtue and knowledge to abound in Jesus. 

I have heard many people talk about messages (whether church attendance, music, politics, or other matters) as "applying to everyday Christian living" when it was really a message on doing good.  Unfortunately, most Christians stop at the virtue and then stand and point at others whose virtue may not be on the same level or intensity.  Then, they see who can sound the most virtuous by "being involved in church service" or they drag down anyone around them in a cloud of backbiting and gossip.  These Christians seem to have a false sense of spiritual maturity simply because they believe they have mastered virtue (at the expense of quenching grace).

Hope your study went well.  I would not mind discussing in more depth the various parts of 2Peter mentioned in the quoted verses if you have any questions.  And I'll try to be more brief:) ::amen!::   

Offline Bonnie

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Re: Justification by Faith and Sound Doctrine
« Reply #8 on: Mon Jun 08, 2009 - 17:33:28 »
I have also noticed a tremendous lack of knowledge in today's churches.  I believe the vault may lie in the many religion schools whose graduates seem to only teach the very basics of faith.  More to the solution, however, in my SS class I helped teach a series on Christian growth based on 2Peter 1:5-9.

"2Peter 1:5  And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6  And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7  And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8  For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9  But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins."

To summarize, the vast majority of faith teaching comes from the basis of virtue (doing good or doing evil) and never advances to knowledge or other categories that we are told to add to our existing faith.  Virtue is the basic foundation level and we add to our virtue and knowledge to abound in Jesus. 

I have heard many people talk about messages (whether church attendance, music, politics, or other matters) as "applying to everyday Christian living" when it was really a message on doing good.  Unfortunately, most Christians stop at the virtue and then stand and point at others whose virtue may not be on the same level or intensity.  Then, they see who can sound the most virtuous by "being involved in church service" or they drag down anyone around them in a cloud of backbiting and gossip.  These Christians seem to have a false sense of spiritual maturity simply because they believe they have mastered virtue (at the expense of quenching grace).

Hope your study went well.  I would not mind discussing in more depth the various parts of 2Peter mentioned in the quoted verses if you have any questions.  And I'll try to be more brief:) ::amen!::   


Amen, brother, and welcome to the forum. 
I'll look forward to what you feel lead to teach.
God Bless

Offline Wycliffes_Shillelagh

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Re: Justification by Faith and Sound Doctrine
« Reply #9 on: Mon Jun 08, 2009 - 19:03:36 »
I have also noticed a tremendous lack of knowledge in today's churches.  I believe the vault may lie in the many religion schools whose graduates seem to only teach the very basics of faith.  More to the solution, however, in my SS class I helped teach a series on Christian growth based on 2Peter 1:5-9.

"2Peter 1:5  And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6  And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7  And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8  For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9  But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins."

To summarize, the vast majority of faith teaching comes from the basis of virtue (doing good or doing evil) and never advances to knowledge or other categories that we are told to add to our existing faith.  Virtue is the basic foundation level and we add to our virtue and knowledge to abound in Jesus. 

I have heard many people talk about messages (whether church attendance, music, politics, or other matters) as "applying to everyday Christian living" when it was really a message on doing good.  Unfortunately, most Christians stop at the virtue and then stand and point at others whose virtue may not be on the same level or intensity.  Then, they see who can sound the most virtuous by "being involved in church service" or they drag down anyone around them in a cloud of backbiting and gossip.  These Christians seem to have a false sense of spiritual maturity simply because they believe they have mastered virtue (at the expense of quenching grace).

Hope your study went well.  I would not mind discussing in more depth the various parts of 2Peter mentioned in the quoted verses if you have any questions.  And I'll try to be more brief:) ::amen!::   
I'd like to hear more about godliness.

Offline StanleyTruelove

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Re: Justification by Faith and Sound Doctrine
« Reply #10 on: Sat Jul 11, 2009 - 22:53:16 »
Sorry I was out of town.  On to godliness, it is imperative that you consider that it is not virtue (doing good).  Let me leave you with this thought, what do you think godliness is in this context?  I'd be interested in hearing others thoughts about this.  This lack of godliness causes spiritual blindness according to the following verses in 2Peter.

Offline StanleyTruelove

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Re: Justification by Faith and Sound Doctrine
« Reply #11 on: Tue Jul 14, 2009 - 14:29:37 »
I've been asked to explain my thoughts on godliness in relation to 2Peter 1:6-7.  I can only present what I personally believe these verses speak about.  Very simply, godliness is being more “god-like.
« Last Edit: Tue Jul 21, 2009 - 10:48:03 by StanleyTruelove »

Offline BroBrent

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Re: Justification by Faith and Sound Doctrine
« Reply #12 on: Sun Dec 20, 2009 - 17:34:36 »
For what Baptist as a voting body believe go to...

www.sbc.net/BFM/bfm2000.asp

Offline anothen

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Re: Justification by Faith and Sound Doctrine
« Reply #13 on: Mon Jan 11, 2010 - 18:32:11 »


IlliniPastor
Quote
I am currently at a new Pastorate and have noticed through the past few years that the Church is becoming increasingly ignorant of basic doctrine. I personally fall into reformed category (Calvinism) and have been Arminian (Free Will) for most of my career. I think that people just do not understand the Faith like they should. As an example most Baptists hold to eternal security, but do they know why they do? Do people truly understand what justification by faith really is? I have decided to spend the next few months teaching our adults basic doctrine and I am trying to make it very interactive. Any thoughts from other Baptists or Calvinists?


As to equating your change from free will to Calvinism well that has nothing to do with sound doctrine. The implication, which may not be intended, seems to suggest that those of us who are not Calvinist do not teach sound doctrine.  

The OR of Calvinism and Arminianism and OSAS (tweeners) is the same as long as one stays on topic and does not refer to the OR / Order of salvation as outlined by the two sides and the varying degrees of tweeners and others.  

So, then if a teacher of a given persuasion leaves the point in the outline of the OR they ascribe to then that is were the difference in doctrine occurs.  Now, we know that if an Arminian or Tweener teaches their OR they are teaching sound doctrine according to their system of theology and so it is the same with Calvinism and or so called Reform Churches.  

When the dust settles sound doctrine is to the group what they hold as fundamental to their form of theology. I don't think  you meant it the way that it comes across, but only you can address the intent.

Anothen

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Justification by Faith and Sound Doctrine
« Reply #14 on: Mon Jan 11, 2010 - 19:05:54 »


IlliniPastor
Quote
I am currently at a new Pastorate and have noticed through the past few years that the Church is becoming increasingly ignorant of basic doctrine. I personally fall into reformed category (Calvinism) and have been Arminian (Free Will) for most of my career. I think that people just do not understand the Faith like they should. As an example most Baptists hold to eternal security, but do they know why they do? Do people truly understand what justification by faith really is? I have decided to spend the next few months teaching our adults basic doctrine and I am trying to make it very interactive. Any thoughts from other Baptists or Calvinists?


As to equating your change from free will to Calvinism well that has nothing to do with sound doctrine. The implication, which may not be intended, seems to suggest that those of us who are not Calvinist do not teach sound doctrine.  

The OR of Calvinism and Arminianism and OSAS (tweeners) is the same as long as one stays on topic and does not refer to the OR / Order of salvation as outlined by the two sides and the varying degrees of tweeners and others.  

So, then if a teacher of a given persuasion leaves the point in the outline of the OR they ascribe to then that is were the difference in doctrine occurs.  Now, we know that if an Arminian or Tweener teaches their OR they are teaching sound doctrine according to their system of theology and so it is the same with Calvinism and or so called Reform Churches.  

When the dust settles sound doctrine is to the group what they hold as fundamental to their form of theology. I don't think  you meant it the way that it comes across, but only you can address the intent.

Anothen

There is a tendency for most Calvinists to think there is Calvinism and Arminian.  Then they argue against Arminian which is a clever ploy and makes the arguments go a lot easier.  But that is little more than a straw man.  The fact is there is Calvinism and non-Calvinism.  And quite frankly, the argument between Calvinsim and non-Calvinism seldom goes to a lack of understanding of faith.  I seriously doubt that the Calvinist is any better equipped on that score than the non-Calvinist.  The very fact that the Calvinist almost always inserts the word "alone" after the word faith when speaking of it in any serious discussion of salvation is demonstration of that.

Offline anothen

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Re: Justification by Faith and Sound Doctrine
« Reply #15 on: Wed Jan 13, 2010 - 09:23:26 »


IlliniPastor
Quote
I am currently at a new Pastorate and have noticed through the past few years that the Church is becoming increasingly ignorant of basic doctrine. I personally fall into reformed category (Calvinism) and have been Arminian (Free Will) for most of my career. I think that people just do not understand the Faith like they should. As an example most Baptists hold to eternal security, but do they know why they do? Do people truly understand what justification by faith really is? I have decided to spend the next few months teaching our adults basic doctrine and I am trying to make it very interactive. Any thoughts from other Baptists or Calvinists?


As to equating your change from free will to Calvinism well that has nothing to do with sound doctrine. The implication, which may not be intended, seems to suggest that those of us who are not Calvinist do not teach sound doctrine.  

The OR of Calvinism and Arminianism and OSAS (tweeners) is the same as long as one stays on topic and does not refer to the OR / Order of salvation as outlined by the two sides and the varying degrees of tweeners and others.  

So, then if a teacher of a given persuasion leaves the point in the outline of the OR they ascribe to then that is were the difference in doctrine occurs.  Now, we know that if an Arminian or Tweener teaches their OR they are teaching sound doctrine according to their system of theology and so it is the same with Calvinism and or so called Reform Churches.  

When the dust settles sound doctrine is to the group what they hold as fundamental to their form of theology. I don't think  you meant it the way that it comes across, but only you can address the intent.

Anothen

There is a tendency for most Calvinists to think there is Calvinism and Arminian.  Then they argue against Arminian which is a clever ploy and makes the arguments go a lot easier.  But that is little more than a straw man.  The fact is there is Calvinism and non-Calvinism.  And quite frankly, the argument between Calvinsim and non-Calvinism seldom goes to a lack of understanding of faith.  I seriously doubt that the Calvinist is any better equipped on that score than the non-Calvinist.  The very fact that the Calvinist almost always inserts the word "alone" after the word faith when speaking of it in any serious discussion of salvation is demonstration of that.

I don't want to risk getting in trouble with the rules but I just posted these comments in another post concerning the order of salvation as it relates to “faith

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Justification by Faith and Sound Doctrine
« Reply #16 on: Wed Jan 13, 2010 - 10:54:35 »


IlliniPastor
Quote
I am currently at a new Pastorate and have noticed through the past few years that the Church is becoming increasingly ignorant of basic doctrine. I personally fall into reformed category (Calvinism) and have been Arminian (Free Will) for most of my career. I think that people just do not understand the Faith like they should. As an example most Baptists hold to eternal security, but do they know why they do? Do people truly understand what justification by faith really is? I have decided to spend the next few months teaching our adults basic doctrine and I am trying to make it very interactive. Any thoughts from other Baptists or Calvinists?


As to equating your change from free will to Calvinism well that has nothing to do with sound doctrine. The implication, which may not be intended, seems to suggest that those of us who are not Calvinist do not teach sound doctrine.  

The OR of Calvinism and Arminianism and OSAS (tweeners) is the same as long as one stays on topic and does not refer to the OR / Order of salvation as outlined by the two sides and the varying degrees of tweeners and others.  

So, then if a teacher of a given persuasion leaves the point in the outline of the OR they ascribe to then that is were the difference in doctrine occurs.  Now, we know that if an Arminian or Tweener teaches their OR they are teaching sound doctrine according to their system of theology and so it is the same with Calvinism and or so called Reform Churches.  

When the dust settles sound doctrine is to the group what they hold as fundamental to their form of theology. I don't think  you meant it the way that it comes across, but only you can address the intent.

Anothen

There is a tendency for most Calvinists to think there is Calvinism and Arminian.  Then they argue against Arminian which is a clever ploy and makes the arguments go a lot easier.  But that is little more than a straw man.  The fact is there is Calvinism and non-Calvinism.  And quite frankly, the argument between Calvinsim and non-Calvinism seldom goes to a lack of understanding of faith.  I seriously doubt that the Calvinist is any better equipped on that score than the non-Calvinist.  The very fact that the Calvinist almost always inserts the word "alone" after the word faith when speaking of it in any serious discussion of salvation is demonstration of that.

I don't want to risk getting in trouble with the rules but I just posted these comments in another post concerning the order of salvation as it relates to “faith

Offline Bonnie

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Re: Justification by Faith and Sound Doctrine
« Reply #17 on: Tue Feb 09, 2010 - 09:44:40 »
Not all Baptist believe in Calvinism or the OSAS.  Some of us believe the Bible.

Offline AChristian

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Re: Justification by Faith and Sound Doctrine
« Reply #18 on: Sat May 08, 2010 - 11:06:15 »
According to Romans 6:3-5, Galatians 3:26-29, and Colossians 2:11-13, regeneration occurs when the repentant believer confesses Christ in baptism.  This teaching is contrary to the Baptist faith I preached for almost 30 years, but it is the truth of the New Testament.

Offline pointmade

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Re: Justification by Faith and Sound Doctrine
« Reply #19 on: Sun May 09, 2010 - 14:48:53 »
AChristian: "According to Romans 6:3-5, Galatians 3:26-29, and Colossians 2:11-13, regeneration occurs when the repentant believer confesses Christ in baptism.  This teaching is contrary to the Baptist faith I preached for almost 30 years, but it is the truth of the New Testament"

That is an interesting statement AChristian......Are you saying that you "preached" as a Baptist, a false doctrine for "30 years"?

Would you say then from your statement that regeneration is not miraculous? By that I mean, does faith first come by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Ro. 10:17)? Would an alien sinner have to first, hear, have faith,  (a judgment of the mind regarding the truth of a statement) repent and be baptized for the remission of sins before receiving the "gift of the Holy Spirit" as "promised" in Acts 2:38-39?

Offline AChristian

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Re: Justification by Faith and Sound Doctrine
« Reply #20 on: Sun May 09, 2010 - 20:13:13 »
Friend,

I believe conversion to Christ is one life event consisting of various parts.  It is OK for us to study these parts individually as long as we do not lose sight of the fact that conversion is a single life event in which a sinner becomes a Christian.

I also believe that dead sinners need to have a special work done in their hearts by God before they can and will be converted.  I do not see this work as regeneration, however.  That is, I do not believe regeneration precedes or produces conversion to Christ.

Offline pointmade

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Re: Justification by Faith and Sound Doctrine
« Reply #21 on: Mon May 10, 2010 - 09:53:02 »
AChristian "I also believe that dead sinners need to have a special work done in their hearts by God before they can and will be converted.  I do not see this work as regeneration, however.  That is, I do not believe regeneration precedes or produces conversion to Christ. "

I believer here, you are referring to Calvin's theory of "Total Depravity." You believe that a "sinner needs to have a special work done in their heart by God."

No matter how you slice it, that is "regeneration." Would you not agree that if God worked on your heart this would "precede" your free will?
I am sure you are aware of The Westminster Confession of Faith doctrine: "To everyone there is imputed from Adam an 'original corruption,' whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil" (VI.iv).

Calvin wrote: "Because of the bondage of sin by which the will is held bound, it cannot move toward good much less apply itself thereto; for a movement of this sort is the beginning of conversion to God, which Scripture is ascribed entirely to God " (Institutes of the Christian Religion, II.iii.5).

If this doctrine was true, "faith" would NOT come by "hearing the word of God" (Ro, 10:17) but that God had unconditionally decided to save and regenerate the sinner.
This would be contrary to your statement:  "According to Romans 6:3-5, Galatians 3:26-29, and Colossians 2:11-13, regeneration occurs when the repentant believer confesses Christ in baptism.  This teaching is contrary to the Baptist faith I preached for almost 30 years, but it is the truth of the New Testament"

Are you saying that the doctrine of "Total Depravity" that you taught for "30 years in the Baptist faith" is contrary to the New Testament teaching that "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17)?

Paul said something that is appropriate here: "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (naturally, this would eliminate an infant from this requirement)! And, I have no idea how a "totally depraved" sinner could do this according to Calvin's theory.

"And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring good things. But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah said, Lord who has believed our report?" "If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that you have received, let him be accursed."


Offline Bonnie

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Re: Justification by Faith and Sound Doctrine
« Reply #22 on: Mon May 10, 2010 - 10:01:57 »
AChristian "I also believe that dead sinners need to have a special work done in their hearts by God before they can and will be converted.  I do not see this work as regeneration, however.  That is, I do not believe regeneration precedes or produces conversion to Christ. "

I believer here, you are referring to Calvin's theory of "Total Depravity." You believe that a "sinner needs to have a special work done in their heart by God."

No matter how you slice it, that is "regeneration." Would you not agree that if God worked on your heart this would "precede" your free will?
I am sure you are aware of The Westminster Confession of Faith doctrine: "To everyone there is imputed from Adam an 'original corruption,' whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil" (VI.iv).

Calvin wrote: "Because of the bondage of sin by which the will is held bound, it cannot move toward good much less apply itself thereto; for a movement of this sort is the beginning of conversion to God, which Scripture is ascribed entirely to God " (Institutes of the Christian Religion, II.iii.5).

If this doctrine was true, "faith" would NOT come by "hearing the word of God" (Ro, 10:17) but that God had unconditionally decided to save and regenerate the sinner.
This would be contrary to your statement:  "According to Romans 6:3-5, Galatians 3:26-29, and Colossians 2:11-13, regeneration occurs when the repentant believer confesses Christ in baptism.  This teaching is contrary to the Baptist faith I preached for almost 30 years, but it is the truth of the New Testament"

Are you saying that the doctrine of "Total Depravity" that you taught for "30 years in the Baptist faith" is contrary to the New Testament teaching that "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17)?

Paul said something that is appropriate here: "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (naturally, this would eliminate an infant from this requirement)! And, I have no idea how a "totally depraved" sinner could do this according to Calvin's theory.

"And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring good things. But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah said, Lord who has believed our report?" "If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that you have received, let him be accursed."




I'm not a believer in Calvin's theology. But God does have to draw one to him before they can get saved.  Jesus said no man comes to me except my Father which is in heaven draw him.

Offline AChristian

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Re: Justification by Faith and Sound Doctrine
« Reply #23 on: Mon May 10, 2010 - 10:46:33 »
I agree that God's drawing power---or pre-regenerating grace---precedes conversion to Christ.

Offline pointmade

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Re: Justification by Faith and Sound Doctrine
« Reply #24 on: Mon May 10, 2010 - 12:04:09 »
AChristian: "I agree that God's drawing power---or pre-regenerating grace---precedes conversion to Christ."

Thanks for the replies......your answer above is one of Calvin's five steps: "Irresistible Grace." This means that every person unconditionally chosen for salvation will, at the time God chooses, be transformed from the unsaved to the saved state by an unconditional, unilateral, irresistible act of the Holy Spirit.

As you know "Irresistible Grace" would then have to lead to "Perseverance (or Preservation) of the Saints". Or, the doctrine of "once saved, always saved."
This means that God will unconditionally preserve the believer in his saved state for all eternity. Remember: this process of salvation began with unconditional election in eternity past. Calvin taught that nothing can thwart God's purpose to save those whom he has chosen from all eternity.

The problem that I have found with this doctrine is that NO ONE is able to respond to the gospel in faith and repentance, any more than the corpses in a graveyard can respond to your invitation for them to join you in a trip to McDonald's.

I am appalled when a preacher who teaches Total Depravity asks for monetary gifts to preach the Gospel when the fact is, he believes and teaches that the unregenerate mind cannot comprehend the atonement!

Jerry Falwell (well known Baptist preacher) would use "the natural man" of 1 Corinthians 2:14 as his proof that an "unregenerate man could not discern spiritual context because they were foolishness unto him." Of course, Jerry, as so many who teach Total Depravity had misinterpreted Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 2:5-16.

The context comes into focus when one understands that the "we" Paul refers to here in the text are the Apostles. It is absurd to think that today's man "has the mind of Christ" as promised to the men God gave to Jesus. (John 14:25-26; 17:6). This would include the "natural man" seated in Rome wearing the monocle of "Christ's vicar on earth" and the well know "healers," Benny Hinn and Elmer Gantry.

Offline AChristian

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Re: Justification by Faith and Sound Doctrine
« Reply #25 on: Mon May 10, 2010 - 12:14:03 »
No, my position means that God restores the natural man's free will, making it possible for him to obey the gospel.  It does not mean that man will automatically obey the gospel.  It means that God takes the initiative in salvation, and man responds to God. 

I know all about 5-point Calvinism.  I was a Calvinist for many years.

Offline Bonnie

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Re: Justification by Faith and Sound Doctrine
« Reply #26 on: Mon May 10, 2010 - 16:15:12 »
AChristian: "I agree that God's drawing power---or pre-regenerating grace---precedes conversion to Christ."

Thanks for the replies......your answer above is one of Calvin's five steps: "Irresistible Grace." This means that every person unconditionally chosen for salvation will, at the time God chooses, be transformed from the unsaved to the saved state by an unconditional, unilateral, irresistible act of the Holy Spirit.

As you know "Irresistible Grace" would then have to lead to "Perseverance (or Preservation) of the Saints". Or, the doctrine of "once saved, always saved."
This means that God will unconditionally preserve the believer in his saved state for all eternity. Remember: this process of salvation began with unconditional election in eternity past. Calvin taught that nothing can thwart God's purpose to save those whom he has chosen from all eternity.

The problem that I have found with this doctrine is that NO ONE is able to respond to the gospel in faith and repentance, any more than the corpses in a graveyard can respond to your invitation for them to join you in a trip to McDonald's.

I am appalled when a preacher who teaches Total Depravity asks for monetary gifts to preach the Gospel when the fact is, he believes and teaches that the unregenerate mind cannot comprehend the atonement!

Jerry Falwell (well known Baptist preacher) would use "the natural man" of 1 Corinthians 2:14 as his proof that an "unregenerate man could not discern spiritual context because they were foolishness unto him." Of course, Jerry, as so many who teach Total Depravity had misinterpreted Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 2:5-16.

The context comes into focus when one understands that the "we" Paul refers to here in the text are the Apostles. It is absurd to think that today's man "has the mind of Christ" as promised to the men God gave to Jesus. (John 14:25-26; 17:6). This would include the "natural man" seated in Rome wearing the monocle of "Christ's vicar on earth" and the well know "healers," Benny Hinn and Elmer Gantry.


Jesus himself says that no man comes to him except the Father draw him. I believe in free will and that all have the opportunity to be saved but some walk away and say no to God. That's Bible not Calvinism.

Offline pointmade

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Re: Justification by Faith and Sound Doctrine
« Reply #27 on: Tue May 11, 2010 - 16:21:24 »
"Jesus himself says that no man comes to him except the Father draw him. I believe in free will and that all have the opportunity to be saved but some walk away and say no to God. That's Bible not Calvinism."

Since God is going to "draw" the alien sinner to Him," why go teach and make disciples"? I know Jesus said "No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:44). Problem is this verse is NOT the end of His teaching here as He fed the five thousand.
He goes on to say, "It is written in the prophets, and they shall be all taught of God> Every man therefore that HEARD, and LEARNED of the Father, COMES TO ME."

Wow! that does change the word "draw" from an act to a point of "hear" and "learn." "Go teach" is the command of Jesus as I read the text...But, I was a Catholic for the first part of my life and led around by an old priest who worshiped statues.....

Offline Bonnie

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Re: Justification by Faith and Sound Doctrine
« Reply #28 on: Tue May 11, 2010 - 17:10:06 »
God told us to go out and compel them to come.

He prepares the heart to be open to our teaching but that doesn't mean they will hear us. I have tried to work with people and it was impossible without God convicting them of their sins.

Offline pointmade

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Re: Justification by Faith and Sound Doctrine
« Reply #29 on: Wed May 12, 2010 - 07:30:12 »
Bonnie: "God told us to go out and compel them to come."
He also said, "Go teach and MAKE disciples." The action verb here is "make."

To say that God "elects" some to hear and understand is the impact of Spirit upon spirit (man's). Would you show me any place in the Gospels where Jesus "forced" anyone to follow him? He constantly said "follow me." He drove no man to follow!

Peter persuade those at Pentecost to repent and be baptized by the message. Read again verse 14 of Acts 2......."You men of Judaea, and all you that dwell at Jerusalem HARKEN TO MY WORDS." The Holy Spirit used words to convict men. He did not perform a lobotomy and cause those "three thousand souls" to believe. "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than ANY twoedged sword, piercing even to dividing into parts of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a DISCERNER of the thoughts and intent of the heart" (Heb. 4:12).



Offline Bonnie

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Re: Justification by Faith and Sound Doctrine
« Reply #30 on: Wed May 12, 2010 - 08:09:06 »
Bonnie: "God told us to go out and compel them to come."
He also said, "Go teach and MAKE disciples." The action verb here is "make."

To say that God "elects" some to hear and understand is the impact of Spirit upon spirit (man's). Would you show me any place in the Gospels where Jesus "forced" anyone to follow him? He constantly said "follow me." He drove no man to follow!

Peter persuade those at Pentecost to repent and be baptized by the message. Read again verse 14 of Acts 2......."You men of Judaea, and all you that dwell at Jerusalem HARKEN TO MY WORDS." The Holy Spirit used words to convict men. He did not perform a lobotomy and cause those "three thousand souls" to believe. "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than ANY twoedged sword, piercing even to dividing into parts of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a DISCERNER of the thoughts and intent of the heart" (Heb. 4:12).






I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. God makes no one serve him. We do that of our own free will. I believe every person has the opportunity to be saved. I don't believe he has a select few who get his calling.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Offline pointmade

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Re: Justification by Faith and Sound Doctrine
« Reply #31 on: Wed May 12, 2010 - 15:27:02 »
Thanks Bonnie...no doubt,  I have misunderstood you. I often open my mouth before engaging my mind......

Offline Bonnie

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Re: Justification by Faith and Sound Doctrine
« Reply #32 on: Wed May 12, 2010 - 15:58:12 »
Thanks Bonnie...no doubt,  I have misunderstood you. I often open my mouth before engaging my mind......


God bless.

 

     
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