Justification by Faith and Sound Doctrine

[IlliniPastor]

I am currently at a new Pastorate and have noticed through the past few years that the Church is becoming increasingly ignorant of basic doctrine. I personally fall into reformed category (Calvinism) and have been Arminian (Free Will) for most of my career. I think that people just do not understand the Faith like they should. As an example most Baptists hold to eternal security, but do they know why they do? Do people truly understand what justification by faith really is? I have decided to spend the next few months teaching our adults basic doctrine and I am trying to make it very interactive. Any thoughts from other Baptists or Calvinists?

[Bonnie]

I am currently at a new Pastorate and have noticed through the past few years that the Church is becoming increasingly ignorant of basic doctrine. I personally fall into reformed category (Calvinism) and have been Arminian (Free Will) for most of my career. I think that people just do not understand the Faith like they should. As an example most Baptists hold to eternal security, but do they know why they do? Do people truly understand what justification by faith really is? I have decided to spend the next few months teaching our adults basic doctrine and I am trying to make it very interactive. Any thoughts from other Baptists or Calvinists?

I agree from what I know of the Baptist in my area that most don't understand why they believe like they do.  There's a definite lack of teaching and watered down gospel has become the norm.  Showing up for Sunday services seems to be at the top of the list whether they know a Bible verse or not or ever say a prayer.
I believe in free will but I love my Calvinists' brothers and sisters.

[IlliniPastor]

I am currently at a new Pastorate and have noticed through the past few years that the Church is becoming increasingly ignorant of basic doctrine. I personally fall into reformed category (Calvinism) and have been Arminian (Free Will) for most of my career. I think that people just do not understand the Faith like they should. As an example most Baptists hold to eternal security, but do they know why they do? Do people truly understand what justification by faith really is? I have decided to spend the next few months teaching our adults basic doctrine and I am trying to make it very interactive. Any thoughts from other Baptists or Calvinists?

I agree from what I know of the Baptist in my area that most don't understand why they believe like they do.  There's a definite lack of teaching and watered down gospel has become the norm.  Showing up for Sunday services seems to be at the top of the list whether they know a Bible verse or not or ever say a prayer.
I believe in free will but I love my Calvinists' brothers and sisters.

I don't know what the answer is at this point, but I think that any Pastor staying somewhere for at least 5-10 years with a desire to teach the basics is a good place to start.

[Bonnie]

I am currently at a new Pastorate and have noticed through the past few years that the Church is becoming increasingly ignorant of basic doctrine. I personally fall into reformed category (Calvinism) and have been Arminian (Free Will) for most of my career. I think that people just do not understand the Faith like they should. As an example most Baptists hold to eternal security, but do they know why they do? Do people truly understand what justification by faith really is? I have decided to spend the next few months teaching our adults basic doctrine and I am trying to make it very interactive. Any thoughts from other Baptists or Calvinists?

I agree from what I know of the Baptist in my area that most don't understand why they believe like they do.  There's a definite lack of teaching and watered down gospel has become the norm.  Showing up for Sunday services seems to be at the top of the list whether they know a Bible verse or not or ever say a prayer.
I believe in free will but I love my Calvinists' brothers and sisters.

I don't know what the answer is at this point, but I think that any Pastor staying somewhere for at least 5-10 years with a desire to teach the basics is a good place to start.

I've always heard that if there's no fire in the pulpit, there will be none in the church.  Yet do people have an excuse for not doing what they should? I don't believe so.  I believe it's characteristic of "the blind leading the blind."


Blessings

[Donnzy]

I used to be in alot of bondage. I was raised in church and always thought it was law. Idont know exactly what happened but i think God turned me over to satan. But everytime i sinned he was there in my face showing me i didnt meausure up. At first when he showed me my faults the harder i tried to meausure up. After about 2 years of this I finally reached a point where i said i couldnt do this anymore and i had come across a scripture where i was just dust(human and going to sin) and he didnt want to destroy me, and also where he was the rock. So I decided that i wud trust Jesus the rock for slvation instead of trying and being crushed by him.  I guess what i went through was and act of toughlove. Hate to sound like a wuss but it was a very stressfull experience. I was about ready for a straightjacket after this. It took a year for him to strenghten me back up. now I do what I want when I want I live a Free life. It feels so good not to live life with strings attached. All he wants us to do is trust him then he saves us or salvation is complete. Nothing will ever change that.

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

I'm confused.  You said you were Calvinist, then you said you believe in Free Will...which one is it?

[bujitz]

hi guys. I think we Christians should not be labeling ourselves as calvinist or whatever. Calvin is not our god. Though we do agree in Calvin's Theology  we are still Christians brothers and sisters...

[StanleyTruelove]

I have also noticed a tremendous lack of knowledge in today's churches.  I believe the vault may lie in the many religion schools whose graduates seem to only teach the very basics of faith.  More to the solution, however, in my SS class I helped teach a series on Christian growth based on 2Peter 1:5-9.

"2Peter 1:5  And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6  And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7  And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8  For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9  But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins."

To summarize, the vast majority of faith teaching comes from the basis of virtue (doing good or doing evil) and never advances to knowledge or other categories that we are told to add to our existing faith.  Virtue is the basic foundation level and we add to our virtue and knowledge to abound in Jesus. 

I have heard many people talk about messages (whether church attendance, music, politics, or other matters) as "applying to everyday Christian living" when it was really a message on doing good.  Unfortunately, most Christians stop at the virtue and then stand and point at others whose virtue may not be on the same level or intensity.  Then, they see who can sound the most virtuous by "being involved in church service" or they drag down anyone around them in a cloud of backbiting and gossip.  These Christians seem to have a false sense of spiritual maturity simply because they believe they have mastered virtue (at the expense of quenching grace).

Hope your study went well.  I would not mind discussing in more depth the various parts of 2Peter mentioned in the quoted verses if you have any questions.  And I'll try to be more brief:)    

[Bonnie]

I have also noticed a tremendous lack of knowledge in today's churches.  I believe the vault may lie in the many religion schools whose graduates seem to only teach the very basics of faith.  More to the solution, however, in my SS class I helped teach a series on Christian growth based on 2Peter 1:5-9.

"2Peter 1:5  And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6  And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7  And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8  For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9  But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins."

To summarize, the vast majority of faith teaching comes from the basis of virtue (doing good or doing evil) and never advances to knowledge or other categories that we are told to add to our existing faith.  Virtue is the basic foundation level and we add to our virtue and knowledge to abound in Jesus. 

I have heard many people talk about messages (whether church attendance, music, politics, or other matters) as "applying to everyday Christian living" when it was really a message on doing good.  Unfortunately, most Christians stop at the virtue and then stand and point at others whose virtue may not be on the same level or intensity.  Then, they see who can sound the most virtuous by "being involved in church service" or they drag down anyone around them in a cloud of backbiting and gossip.  These Christians seem to have a false sense of spiritual maturity simply because they believe they have mastered virtue (at the expense of quenching grace).

Hope your study went well.  I would not mind discussing in more depth the various parts of 2Peter mentioned in the quoted verses if you have any questions.  And I'll try to be more brief:)    

Amen, brother, and welcome to the forum. 
I'll look forward to what you feel lead to teach.
God Bless

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

I have also noticed a tremendous lack of knowledge in today's churches.  I believe the vault may lie in the many religion schools whose graduates seem to only teach the very basics of faith.  More to the solution, however, in my SS class I helped teach a series on Christian growth based on 2Peter 1:5-9.

"2Peter 1:5  And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6  And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7  And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8  For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9  But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins."

To summarize, the vast majority of faith teaching comes from the basis of virtue (doing good or doing evil) and never advances to knowledge or other categories that we are told to add to our existing faith.  Virtue is the basic foundation level and we add to our virtue and knowledge to abound in Jesus. 

I have heard many people talk about messages (whether church attendance, music, politics, or other matters) as "applying to everyday Christian living" when it was really a message on doing good.  Unfortunately, most Christians stop at the virtue and then stand and point at others whose virtue may not be on the same level or intensity.  Then, they see who can sound the most virtuous by "being involved in church service" or they drag down anyone around them in a cloud of backbiting and gossip.  These Christians seem to have a false sense of spiritual maturity simply because they believe they have mastered virtue (at the expense of quenching grace).

Hope your study went well.  I would not mind discussing in more depth the various parts of 2Peter mentioned in the quoted verses if you have any questions.  And I'll try to be more brief:)    

I'd like to hear more about godliness.

[StanleyTruelove]

Sorry I was out of town.  On to godliness, it is imperative that you consider that it is not virtue (doing good).  Let me leave you with this thought, what do you think godliness is in this context?  I'd be interested in hearing others thoughts about this.  This lack of godliness causes spiritual blindness according to the following verses in 2Peter.

[StanleyTruelove]

I've been asked to explain my thoughts on godliness in relation to 2Peter 1:6-7.  I can only present what I personally believe these verses speak about.  Very simply, godliness is being more “god-like.”  The problem is we can never have the attributes of God the Father such as all-powerful, all-knowing (though some claim to be;) and certainly not omni-present.  This thinking leads to pride, which the Devil offered to Eve in the garden – to be like gods.  

So, what is godliness?  The answer is absence of self so that the nature of God has preeminence in our life.  Today we call it humility.  There is one form that Jesus Himself had to put on -- humility.  Jesus did not have humility before He became man, but Jesus put on humility to become as a servant so He could walk among us Php 2:7-8.  Now He is exalted because He took on humility.  John the Baptist also said, “He must increase, but I must decrease.” John 3:30.  The same goes for us, we must decrease to be increased in God’s nature.  For me personally, humility is the epitome of godliness.  

Yet, most people get pious (puffed up 1Cor 8:1) when they think they are godly, which is the opposite of humility.  Righteousness has already been given to us through Jesus, but walking in humility is done (with God’s help) by renewing our minds away from thinking “we did it all.”  All growth is due to God’s grace and only for God’s glory not our own.  We rob God of the very glory we can give to Him when we think we did it ourselves.  
Plus, doesn’t it make sense that it’s near the end of all the other attributes of 2Peter 1:5-7?  After virtue (good deeds), knowledge, temperance, and patience, then comes godliness.  Wouldn’t we think we have “arrived” when we see how far we have grown?  Yet, it’s then that we can fail in humility.  

Another idea a friend suggested is that godliness is listed after patience (in 2Pet 1:5-7) because tribulation brings patience and godliness is the correct response to tribulation (after we have “patiently” endured the tribulation).  I can certainly say that it's a way of “decreasing” yourself when you accept tribulation knowing that God's nature has an opportunity to “increase” in your life.

I’m not suggesting that every reference to godliness in the NT refers to humility, but humility was a struggle for Peter, and I think it makes the most sense in this context.  There are many attributes of God and feel free to disagree with me, but Peter struggled with humility and I think he would have made sure humility was in the list if we had left it out.

I know each line will be closely examined (which I don't mind -- I certainly don't have all the answers) so I've tried to take time and make sure my response completely addresses the question.  Hope people find this as an encouragement and help.  Study this for yourselves -- you'll discover that part of the learning is the journey not just the answer!

-ST

[BroBrent]

For what Baptist as a voting body believe go to...

www.sbc.net/BFM/bfm2000.asp

[anothen]

IlliniPastor

I am currently at a new Pastorate and have noticed through the past few years that the Church is becoming increasingly ignorant of basic doctrine. I personally fall into reformed category (Calvinism) and have been Arminian (Free Will) for most of my career. I think that people just do not understand the Faith like they should. As an example most Baptists hold to eternal security, but do they know why they do? Do people truly understand what justification by faith really is? I have decided to spend the next few months teaching our adults basic doctrine and I am trying to make it very interactive. Any thoughts from other Baptists or Calvinists?

As to equating your change from free will to Calvinism well that has nothing to do with sound doctrine. The implication, which may not be intended, seems to suggest that those of us who are not Calvinist do not teach sound doctrine.  

The OR of Calvinism and Arminianism and OSAS (tweeners) is the same as long as one stays on topic and does not refer to the OR / Order of salvation as outlined by the two sides and the varying degrees of tweeners and others.  

So, then if a teacher of a given persuasion leaves the point in the outline of the OR they ascribe to then that is were the difference in doctrine occurs.  Now, we know that if an Arminian or Tweener teaches their OR they are teaching sound doctrine according to their system of theology and so it is the same with Calvinism and or so called Reform Churches.  

When the dust settles sound doctrine is to the group what they hold as fundamental to their form of theology. I don't think  you meant it the way that it comes across, but only you can address the intent.

Anothen

[Jimmy]

IlliniPastor

I am currently at a new Pastorate and have noticed through the past few years that the Church is becoming increasingly ignorant of basic doctrine. I personally fall into reformed category (Calvinism) and have been Arminian (Free Will) for most of my career. I think that people just do not understand the Faith like they should. As an example most Baptists hold to eternal security, but do they know why they do? Do people truly understand what justification by faith really is? I have decided to spend the next few months teaching our adults basic doctrine and I am trying to make it very interactive. Any thoughts from other Baptists or Calvinists?

As to equating your change from free will to Calvinism well that has nothing to do with sound doctrine. The implication, which may not be intended, seems to suggest that those of us who are not Calvinist do not teach sound doctrine.  

The OR of Calvinism and Arminianism and OSAS (tweeners) is the same as long as one stays on topic and does not refer to the OR / Order of salvation as outlined by the two sides and the varying degrees of tweeners and others.  

So, then if a teacher of a given persuasion leaves the point in the outline of the OR they ascribe to then that is were the difference in doctrine occurs.  Now, we know that if an Arminian or Tweener teaches their OR they are teaching sound doctrine according to their system of theology and so it is the same with Calvinism and or so called Reform Churches.  

When the dust settles sound doctrine is to the group what they hold as fundamental to their form of theology. I don't think  you meant it the way that it comes across, but only you can address the intent.

Anothen

There is a tendency for most Calvinists to think there is Calvinism and Arminian.  Then they argue against Arminian which is a clever ploy and makes the arguments go a lot easier.  But that is little more than a straw man.  The fact is there is Calvinism and non-Calvinism.  And quite frankly, the argument between Calvinsim and non-Calvinism seldom goes to a lack of understanding of faith.  I seriously doubt that the Calvinist is any better equipped on that score than the non-Calvinist.  The very fact that the Calvinist almost always inserts the word "alone" after the word faith when speaking of it in any serious discussion of salvation is demonstration of that.