Author Topic: We Baptists are corrupt, perverting our way  (Read 1690 times)

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Offline Glenn63

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We Baptists are corrupt, perverting our way
« on: Mon Feb 04, 2013 - 09:46:22 »
We Baptists hear Roman Catholics speak as if they are the true church from the 1st century, but that is ludicrous.  The RCC of today has no similarity to the church of Rome in the early years.  Their false teachings have been added over the years, see:


     You do not have to take this man's word for these topics, do a google search.  But, back to us Baptists, are we any better?  We proclaim no Creed but the Bible, but aren't we lying through our teeth?  For a Scripture basis, I find it laid out as God instructed his Old Covenant people as to worship, observances.

““When the LORD your God cuts off before you the nations whom you go in to dispossess, and you dispossess them and dwell in their land, take care that you be not ensnared to follow them, after they have been destroyed before you, and that you do not inquire about their gods, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their gods?—that I also may do the same.’ You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the LORD hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods. “Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do. You shall not add to it or take from it.” (De 12:29-32 ESV)

What have we given to us as believers in the New Covenant?

“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”” (Mt 28:19-20 ESV)

“To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.” (1Co 9:21 ESV)

“I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.” (Re 22:18-19 ESV)

Our law of worship and belief comes from the New Covenant, the Old Covenant law of worship is now abolished or annulled:  Jer. 31:31-34 repeated in Heb. 8:6-13.  Jesus fulfilled and completed thus annulling the Old Covenant: 2 Cor. 3:6-11; Eph. 2:13-16; Col. 2:13-14 and Heb. 7:11-12, 18-19.  So, in our worship observances in today's Baptist church are we not guilty of the same thing as the ancient Jews who were condemned by Jesus in the following:

“in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men.” And he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition!” (Mr 7:7-9 ESV)

Where in the New Covenant do we find instructions for the Christian believers in gathered assembly to practice the following things?

Musical instruments?  Altar call at end of worship?  Candles?  Celebrations of the non-biblical days of Christmas and Easter?  Gathering in a circle holding hands like Wiccans to pray?  Using grape juice instead of wine for the Lord's Supper?  Women teaching/preaching in the gathered assembly as Elder/Pastor?  Singing of songs that praise and glorify man instead of God with phrases such as "oh how I love Jesus" or "I surrender all".

If the New Testament teaches truth, and if we can know it from Scripture; why are the man-made traditions I've listed found in the Baptist churches of this day?  If NT Scripture is true, our worship should be the same from the 17th to the 21st century or we are not worshiping from the same source. Have we as Baptists not done as the church of Rome has done by their additions through the centuries?  Certainly my fellow Baptists are aware that not only Baptists, but Methodists and Presbyterians shunned musical instruments in worship in the 17th and 18th centuries.  Why do we not only use musical instruments, but sound as sick as the world in some churches with the garbage called music?

May God's Spirit speak to us all and may God's peace be upon us all. 




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« Last Edit: Mon Feb 04, 2013 - 10:05:03 by JohnDB »

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We Baptists are corrupt, perverting our way
« on: Mon Feb 04, 2013 - 09:46:22 »

Offline neophyte

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Re: We Baptists are corrupt, perverting our way
« Reply #1 on: Mon Feb 04, 2013 - 10:12:13 »
Glenn63, you are all mixed up. You and other Protestants and their offshoot cults i.e. JWs see it as Jesus condemns all traditions, not true. There were some man-made traditions that were concocted by the Pharisees to avoid following God's Laws. The best example of this was the very one Jesus pointed to in Matt. 15: the so -called "Korban tradition " a rule made up by the Jews could "dedicate" all their money to the Temple treasury as a pious act of almsgiving . This would afford them the technical excuse of not having any money  with which to help their infirm or economically disadvantaged parents who might approach them in need of financial help. To purposely ignore your parent's plea for that financial help would be to violate God's command to " honor your father and your mother. So, under the bogus Korban rule, someone could technically "donate" his money to "God,"and thereby not be able to give money to parents in need. But the reality was that those who circumvented God's law through the Korban actually had full access to their funds, though they were officially "Temple Property". That is the kind of tradition that Jesus was against ,not Church Apostolic [ God's } Tradition, as Protestants claim.

Offline Glenn63

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Re: We Baptists are corrupt, perverting our way
« Reply #2 on: Mon Feb 04, 2013 - 10:40:07 »
To "neophyte" I shall make only one response since I do not intend to debate, though you seem to not be a Baptist so why you are here in this forum I know not.  But, I will attempt to offer edification and then let it drop.  From God's word:

“So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.” (2Th 2:15 ESV)

I offer the words of Matthew Poole, a wise English Puritan as he comments on this passage in most excellent fashion:

"Whether by word, or our epistle;  by word of mouth in public preaching, or private instruction. The apostle had both preached and written to these Thessalonians, before he wrote this Second Epistle. And that the papists should hence infer that there are matters of necessary consequence in religion, not contained in the Scriptures, is without ground. These they call traditions, some whereof are concerning faith, others concerning manners, others ritual, with respect to the worship of God, or the external polity of the church. But who can assure us what these are? What a door is here opened to introduce what men please into the church, under pretence of tradition! Who were the persons the apostle intrusted to keep these traditions? Why should he not declare the whole system of gospel truths he had received from Christ in writing, as well as part? Why should he conceal some things, when he wrote others? And doth not the apostle assure Timothy that All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof for correction, for instruction; that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works? #2Ti 3:16,17. What need then traditions? And how can we know that they are by Divine inspiration, as we are assured all Scripture is? Our Saviour reproved the Pharisees about their traditions, when from hence they would observe and impose ceremonies of washing hands, cups, and platters, #Mt 15:2-6, yea, and by them make the commandments of God of none effect; which the apostle cautions the Colossians about, #Col 2:8; and whereof Paul declares his zeal before his conversion, #Ga 1:14: and we find men’s zeal still more about them than moral duties, and express institutions of God’s worship. All the apostle’s doctrine,

whether by word or epistle, he calls by the name of traditions in the text here, and he commends the Corinthians, #1Co 11:2, that they kept the traditions delivered to them; but were not they all committed to writing in some place or other of his Epistles? And which were, and which were not, who can be certain? And why should traditions be confined only to those things which the apostle did not write? He exhorts the Thessalonians to hold the traditions which they had been taught, whether by word or epistle. And if they hold them with strength, as the word is, by this means they would stand fast."

God's peace to all the saints!

Offline DaveW

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Re: We Baptists are corrupt, perverting our way
« Reply #3 on: Mon Feb 04, 2013 - 11:28:20 »
Yes God the Father, Yeshua/Jesus and Paul all are not opposed to traditions.  But I would submit that the traditions that the catholic and orthodox have observed are NOT the same as what Jesus and Paul talked about and each kept.

They kept JEWISH traditions.  Near the end of his life Paul testified before the rabbis in Rome that he kept the "customs of the fathers." That was Jewish Pharisaic oral tradition. (would traditional rabbis have understood that to mean anything else?)

Offline Glenn63

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Re: We Baptists are corrupt, perverting our way
« Reply #4 on: Mon Feb 04, 2013 - 11:40:35 »
I erred in my initial post by including a URL which as a newbie I was not permitted.  That made it difficult to follow my thought.  Do a google search for "list of catholic heresies" and one of the first 2 or 3 is a list of traditions and the dates that the RCC has added.  If worship is of God and his word, then the worship should be the same from the start.  Just as with Baptists, in the 17th century Baptists discarded the false teachings and traditions of man and went back to the NT teachings.  So, if our worship today is not like the 17th century Baptists, why?  Did the NT change?  Or, did human traditions keep creeping back into the assemblies of Baptists.  Just as we question the RCC, if their church is true, why did they change through the centuries so they are no longer the church of the 1st century?  Did God give secret teachings to special men only to be revealed at specific times down through the centuries? hahaha... that sounds like gnosticism with their secret knowledge.

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Re: We Baptists are corrupt, perverting our way
« Reply #4 on: Mon Feb 04, 2013 - 11:40:35 »



Offline DaveW

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Re: We Baptists are corrupt, perverting our way
« Reply #5 on: Mon Feb 04, 2013 - 11:50:11 »
If worship is of God and his word, then the worship should be the same from the start.
And the start (if you read Acts well concerning the Jerusalem congregation) was VERY Jewish.

Quote
Just as with Baptists, in the 17th century Baptists discarded the false teachings and traditions of man and went back to the NT teachings.  So, if our worship today is not like the 17th century Baptists, why?  Did the NT change?  Or, did human traditions keep creeping back into the assemblies of Baptists.

And that assumes that the 17th century Baptists were 100% successful in riding themselves of gentile excesses.  I submit that was not necessarily the case.

Offline makahiya

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Re: We Baptists are corrupt, perverting our way
« Reply #6 on: Tue Mar 05, 2013 - 13:54:00 »
We Baptists hear Roman Catholics speak as if they are the true church from the 1st century, but that is ludicrous.  The RCC of today has no similarity to the church of Rome in the early years.  Their false teachings have been added over the years, see:


     You do not have to take this man's word for these topics, do a google search.  But, back to us Baptists, are we any better?  We proclaim no Creed but the Bible, but aren't we lying through our teeth?  For a Scripture basis, I find it laid out as God instructed his Old Covenant people as to worship, observances.

““When the LORD your God cuts off before you the nations whom you go in to dispossess, and you dispossess them and dwell in their land, take care that you be not ensnared to follow them, after they have been destroyed before you, and that you do not inquire about their gods, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their gods?—that I also may do the same.’ You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the LORD hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods. “Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do. You shall not add to it or take from it.” (De 12:29-32 ESV)

What have we given to us as believers in the New Covenant?

“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”” (Mt 28:19-20 ESV)

“To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.” (1Co 9:21 ESV)

“I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.” (Re 22:18-19 ESV)

Our law of worship and belief comes from the New Covenant, the Old Covenant law of worship is now abolished or annulled:  Jer. 31:31-34 repeated in Heb. 8:6-13.  Jesus fulfilled and completed thus annulling the Old Covenant: 2 Cor. 3:6-11; Eph. 2:13-16; Col. 2:13-14 and Heb. 7:11-12, 18-19.  So, in

If the New Testament teaches truth, and if we can know it from Scripture;

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"  If the New Testament teaches truth, and if we can know it from Scripture; "

What New Testament came from what scripture ?

KJV 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction,
for instruction in righteousness:


1.  You cannot honestly say "the bible" or "all bibles" are given by inspiration of God.
There are over 400 (Christian, Catholic, Cult) Greek, Syrian, Latin, German, English,
French, Spanish, etc. bibles which do not match in content, volume or doctrine.


2.  You cannot honestly say "the Greek N.T." or "all N.T. Greek texts" are given by inspiration of God.
There are over 24 reconstructed (Christian, Catholic, Cult) Greek N.T. texts
which do not match in content, volume or doctrine.



What are you saying ?







.

Offline Glenn63

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Re: We Baptists are corrupt, perverting our way
« Reply #7 on: Tue Mar 05, 2013 - 14:37:04 »
Bible Baptist, I am saying if Jesus Christ was not hung up on varied translations of the Bible, since he quoted from the Septuagint and did not warn us not to do so...  I am saying it is stupid to worship a translation of 1611 as the only word of God.  I take the KJV and then use an English dictionary to understand the words.  Do you have a heaven approved dictionary that will tell us which definition of a word fits and which English Dictionary to use?

“Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.” (Joh 17:17 KJV)
"Consecrate them in the truth. Your word is truth." (John 17:17 New American Bible Revised Edition, Roman Catholic)
Consecrate them by the truth; your word is truth.  (John 17:17, REB)
Set them apart in the truth; your word is truth.  (John 17:17, NET)
“Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.” (Joh 17:17 NRSV)
“make them holy by the truth; for your word is the truth.” (Joh 17:17 Philips)

From the Merriam-Webster online:
Definition of SANCTIFY
1: to set apart to a sacred purpose or to religious use : consecrate
2: to free from sin : purify
3 a: to impart or impute sacredness, inviolability, or respect to
   b: to give moral or social sanction to
4: to make productive of holiness or piety <observe the day of the sabbath, to sanctify it — Deuteronomy 5:12(Douay Version)>

How about giving us 3 NT verses where a major doctrine of the faith is in doubt because of a variation in manuscripts or translations so we must embrace the KJV to stay orthodox.

Offline Glenn63

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Re: We Baptists are corrupt, perverting our way
« Reply #8 on: Tue Mar 05, 2013 - 14:48:24 »
Bible Baptist, you in an earlier post denied that Jesus quoted from the Septuagint.  The Blue Letter Bible website gives some passages to show that indeed  he did.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/stewart.cfm?id=1273


Offline JohnDB

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Re: We Baptists are corrupt, perverting our way
« Reply #9 on: Mon Mar 18, 2013 - 10:26:38 »
Actually Jesus never spoke greek except to name the Apostles. He spoke Aramaic. The writers of the Gospels used the Septuagint as a reference to the scripture Jesus quoted.

In Greek Jesus's words are special but not poetry. In Aramaic all his words are poetically formatted.   

 

     
anything