Sola Scriptura vs. Sola Ecclesia

[makahiya]

My Bible Baptist Seminary professor clearly demonstrated from scripture that the scriptures
are the final authority. While most Catholics say the church is the final authority,
my Roman Catholic Seminary professor said “ both ”.  I see two problems with both.

Roman Catholics promote English translations of Alexandrian reconstructed Greek N.T. texts which give precedence to the Alexandrian Vaticanus and Sinaiticus manuscripts, while Bible Baptists promote the English KJV translation of the reconstructed Syrian Greek N.T. texts which give precedence to the Syrian Textus Receptus manuscripts.

While all Protestant denominations originally promoted KJV Bibles prior to 1881 (RV),
today they promote Alexandrian Bibles.

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#1.  Scripture reference to the church is speaking about the body of Christ,
not one particular denomination.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

KJV Romans 12:5  So we, being many, are one body in Christ, a
nd every one members one of another.


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#2.  All Bibles teach salvation by grace through faith.
-----------------------------------------------------------

KJV Ephesians 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

KJV Romans 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

KJV John 7:38  He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said,
out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

KJV 2 Timothy 3:16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

KJV 1 Corinthians 15:3-4
3  For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received,
how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4  And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.

[Glenn63]

I find it difficult to see the point of your post.  If it is about what translation to use, I find that answered by Jesus in our NT writings.

Jesus quotes from Genesis, as in our KJV:

“And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?” (Mt 19:5 AV)

The passage he quotes as found in the OT, in our KJV:

“Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.” (Ge 2:24 AV)

What translation did Jesus quote in Mt. 19:5 that added the word "twain" since it did not match our KJV?

“Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.” (Ge 2:24 LXXE)

Jesus, as most of the quotes of the OT in the NT, was quoting the Septuagint.  I know of no place that Jesus warns us to shun the Septuagint or use caution on a translation.  Therefore, I do not draw fine distinctions about standard translations, other than the perverse "New World Translation" of the Watchtower. I check many translations, and find that none are perfect in every verse.

[makahiya]

I don't think Jesus quoted a Septuagint.

[Glenn63]

I guess we just agree to disagree then.        I see no other way to see it when I compare Jesus' quoting the OT in the KJV NT.  It matches up with the Septuagint, not the OT of the KJV.  Another example:

“Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.” (Mr 7:7 AV)

“Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near [me] with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:” (Isa 29:13 AV)

“And the Lord has said, {1} This people draw nigh to me with their mouth, and they honour me with their lips, but their heart is far from me: but in vain do they worship me, teaching the commandments and doctrines of men. {1) Mt 8:9}” (Isa 29:13 LXXE)

[makahiya]

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Three Central Critical Facts about Holy Scripture
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1.  53 times the words scripture and scriptures are recorded in the KJV Holy Bible.
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2.  Manuscript copies of the original autographs are identified as Holy Scripture.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

KJV Matthew 21:42  Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures,
The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner:
this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

KJV Mark 12:10  And have ye not read this scripture;
The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:

KJV Luke 24:27  And beginning at Moses and all the prophets,
he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

KJV Luke 24:32  And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us,
 while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures ?

KJV John 5:39  Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life:
and they are they which testify of me.

KJV Acts 8:32  The place of the scripture which he read was this,
He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer,
so opened he not his mouth:

KJV Acts 8:35  Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture,
and preached unto him Jesus.

KJV Acts 17:2  And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them,
and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

KJV Acts 17:11  These were more noble than those in Thessalonica,
in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily,
whether those things were so.

KJV Acts 18:28  For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly,
shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

KJV 2 Timothy 3:15  And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures,
which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.


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3.  All scripture is given by inspiration of God.
---------------------------------------------------

KJV 2 Timothy 3:16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

[Glenn63]

makahiya, you wrote:

"Roman Catholics promote English translations of Alexandrian reconstructed Greek N.T. texts which give precedence to the Alexandrian Vaticanus and Sinaiticus manuscripts, while Bible Baptists promote the English KJV translation of the reconstructed Syrian Greek N.T. texts which give precedence to the Syrian Textus Receptus manuscripts.

While all Protestant denominations originally promoted KJV Bibles prior to 1881 (RV),
today they promote Alexandrian Bibles."

So what? Jesus quoted out of the Septuagint at times and Charles Haddon Spurgeon also gave readings out of the Revised Version.  You refer to "Bible Baptist", so can you give a web site  of a Bible Baptist association, convention or fellowship where the beliefs of that Baptist group can be viewed?

[makahiya]

KJV Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.

I say that with sincerity and love.

KJV Open rebuke is better than secret love.

[makahiya]

KJV Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.

What's worse, an amateur intellectual or a blank idiot ?

I ask that with sincerity and love.

[e.r.m.]

I find it difficult to see the point of your post.  If it is about what translation to use, I find that answered by Jesus in our NT writings.

Jesus quotes from Genesis, as in our KJV:

“And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?” (Mt 19:5 AV)

The passage he quotes as found in the OT, in our KJV:

“Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.” (Ge 2:24 AV)

What translation did Jesus quote in Mt. 19:5 that added the word "twain" since it did not match our KJV?

“Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.” (Ge 2:24 LXXE)

Jesus, as most of the quotes of the OT in the NT, was quoting the Septuagint.  I know of no place that Jesus warns us to shun the Septuagint or use caution on a translation.  Therefore, I do not draw fine distinctions about standard translations, other than the perverse "New World Translation" of the Watchtower. I check many translations, and find that none are perfect in every verse.

I agree.

[gbzone]

In  an english   court of law  .You are  obliged  not only to tell the truth  ,but the whole truth. That not always  so easy to do ;God is called upon to help you. "So help me God"

Why?

Because you can tell the truth and take it out of context  or speak only part truth  and by so doing  change  the truth  into a lie.

Now when the reformers  spoke  abour  Sola Scriptura   they in context  were  saying  that  only the scriptures  are the true foundation  and final authority   for faith and sound  doctrin.

Which was the answering to the roman church  that  asserted that thier traditions  were to be held above that of scripture.

So if you NOW  speak  of scripture alone 'Sola scriptura' though in matters   of sound doctrin and true  faith  it is STILL the only foundation.
Expecialy  as the roman church  still insists  as it has always done that her traditions  are to be held  above  the scriptures or the final authority. She now asserting  that she is infallable  in such matters. (a very foolish notion)

But  true BORN  children of God  who by the Word and the Spirit  are begoten again  by the will of God through jesus Christ .
Nee to understand that  thier condition or state  or position   is not related to romes opposition  to the truth.or of a child of Gods stand and contention for  it .
But in each child of Gods relationship with God  in the Spirit.  "For they that are joined to the Lord  are of one Spirit."

In THAT  respect  then we should not say  scripture alone.
For the letter killeth .
But even  as there  is a BODY of truth  which are the scriptures. There is also the  "Spirit fo truth"

Which   then answers the matter   over what  translation.

For the WORD of God  will not nor cannot  contradict  the Spirit of God.

and if a man cannot  be heard or understood  lest he give his life or breath to the words he speaks .

How much the more  then can a man NOT hear or understand  the Word of God   unless the Spirit of God  quickenth  it to him?

For in as much  as the Holy Spirit was so much needed to inspire  men to write  what was written.
In as  much and by the same measure  thrn that the Holy Spirit is needed  to understand what was written.

To them then that  say they honour Peter as the foundation  of their church   listen then to the words of Your(?) Peter.

!ALL  scriptures is given by inspiration   of God  and is good for correction  and reproof................etc"

How is it then that  the roman church  that lays  so much claim  on Peter  beign its foundation  does not listen to his words nor indeed will take correction and reproof from scripture  as needs must?
As He says  we should.

But not only  holds to her traditions  which jesus  said "make the Word of God  of none effect" but  reject those very same scriptures as the final authority. and does far worse  says she is infallable   in them!

As to the various  translations  there are enough good books to show the  validity of the KJV over all  modern translations and indeed the roman one. For any true student  of Christ  to search out  and be enlightened on the matter .

But let  each man before  God be fully persuaded   in it.

in Christ

gerald

[trifecta]

Because you can tell the truth and take it out of context  or speak only part truth  and by so doing  change  the truth  into a lie.

True.  Scripture can be twisted too.  Truth is not an easy thing.  There are many wrong answers to the equation 2 plus 2, but only one right answer.

Now when the reformers  spoke  abour  Sola Scriptura   they in context  were  saying  that  only the scriptures  are the true foundation  and final authority   for faith and sound  doctrin.

The Reformers were wrong and didn't understand how the Semetic culture thought.  Your Baptist professor was wrong.  The written word did not hold authority in the ancient world, because forging was easy.  Word of mouth was much more trusted source.   By the way, no, the scriptures are *not* the source of Protestant theology.  They are important, mind you, but their *interpretation* of Scripture is what they really believe in, but that doesn't sound as good.  Hate to say it, but sola scriptura is just old form of PR

Which was the answering to the roman church  that  asserted that thier traditions  were to be held above that of scripture.

The reason we even have scripture has to do with tradition.  Note what the NT says,  the church is the pillar and foundation of the truth (1 Tim 3:15).  Paul also encourages his readers to follow his oral tradition (2 Thes 2:15).

Is everything about God that you know comes from scripture.  The answer would be no for you as well as me.
Two major ideas missing are the Trinity and the divinity of the Holy Spirit.    Do you think Jesus was fully God and
fully man?  So I do.  That comes from the ecumenical councils, only very indirectly from the Scriptures. 

So if you NOW  speak  of scripture alone 'Sola scriptura' though in matters   of sound doctrin and true  faith  it is STILL the only foundation.

Again, the scriptures say otherwise.  Really, if the Scriptures were the only source of the truth (ignoring Paul's letter which says the church is), don't you think Jesus might have made some reference to this.  The reason we have sola scriptura has to do with church politics. 

Expecialy  as the roman church  still insists  as it has always done that her traditions  are to be held  above  the scriptures or the final authority. She now asserting  that she is infallable  in such matters. (a very foolish notion)

Why would the true church disagree with scriptures?  I don't think the RCC is the true church, but they are better than most.

In THAT  respect  then we should not say  scripture alone.
For the letter killeth .
But even  as there  is a BODY of truth  which are the scriptures. There is also the  "Spirit fo truth"

But the Scriptures says the church is the source of the truth and says *nothing* about the Scriptures holding any type of final authority, yet it says much about the church.

Which   then answers the matter   over what  translation.

Ahh, translation.  There is no perfect translation of Scripture.  This is (one reason) why we need the church

To them then that  say they honour Peter as the foundation  of their church   listen then to the words of Your(?) Peter.

!ALL  scriptures is given by inspiration   of God  and is good for correction  and reproof................etc"

Context, sir.  Note the scriptures here are the OT.  And no, would not include the NT.  It's like saying in after WWI, that that war was the Greatest of all time, which it was at the time, but you can read that truth into the future.

And why can't you believe that the church is the pillar and foundation of the truth as Paul says. Do you believe what Paul wrote is true?

But not only  holds to her traditions  which jesus  said "make the Word of God  of none effect" but  reject those very same scriptures as the final authority. and does far worse  says she is infallable   in them!

Tradition is a fact of life.  There are good traditions (regular bathing) and bad traditions (profanity).  Traditions can be very important to our lives.  I brush my teeth twice daily, eat three meals a day, and say "good morning" to people   All traditions.

As to the various  translations  there are enough good books to show the  validity of the KJV over all  modern translations and indeed the roman one. For any true student  of Christ  to search out  and be enlightened on the matter .

Why would you say this?  The KJV is beautiful, but it was written to be jsut that.  The truth was not even the goal of the KJV.  There is some science to this.  The translation methods today are superior to those then.  On the other hand, theological traditions are read into many modern translations, especially the NIV.  I read NKJV.
 
Believe as you feel led, but disparaging others for their beliefs is another matter.  Study the history of the church.
It will rock your world, did mine.

[gbzone]

makahiya, you wrote:

"Roman Catholics promote English translations of Alexandrian reconstructed Greek N.T. texts which give precedence to the Alexandrian Vaticanus and Sinaiticus manuscripts, while Bible Baptists promote the English KJV translation of the reconstructed Syrian Greek N.T. texts which give precedence to the Syrian Textus Receptus manuscripts.

While all Protestant denominations originally promoted KJV Bibles prior to 1881 (RV),
today they promote Alexandrian Bibles."

So what? Jesus quoted out of the Septuagint at times and Charles Haddon Spurgeon also gave readings out of the Revised Version.  You refer to "Bible Baptist", so can you give a web site  of a Bible Baptist association, convention or fellowship where the beliefs of that Baptist group can be viewed?

Which probably explains  why all the 'protestant ' churches seem to be  in a reverse reformation  and add confusion  to confusion  with so many 'versions '  that it makes the great  errors  of Catholicism  a beacon of light!

In deed Jesus  puts himself  OUTSIDE the church  knocking on its door .
and  thus whether  you are a catholic  or a Baptist   or some other 'church ' who consider themselves part of or THE  church  of Christ .

If he is OUTSIDE  knocking on the door  seeking entrance. Then clearly  that is a call  to ALL to repent.
For there  is only ONE church  and therefore only  one door .
Now when you consider  that after  the resurrection  there was no door closed or locked  that was an obstical to him. Then   for  Him to stand outside  and not enter   but knock would indicate  at best  a church  unwilling or ready to receive him.

The  knocking then is a call to repentance  . The promise however is not to all  but to those "who have ears to hear  and open the door" To THEM  will I and the father........"
For even as john 3:16  is a call to the whole  world  to repent . The promise however is to those who do and believe .
So then to the church  to get herself ready  to meet the coming Lord.
The promise however   is to those who have ears  to hear .

in Christ

gerald