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Author Topic: When did Baptist come to be?  (Read 38096 times)

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Offline The Parson

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Re: When did Baptist come to be?
« Reply #105 on: Tue Mar 16, 2010 - 08:18:42 »
The beginning of the Baptist Church. In 1607 a separatist congregation in Gainsborough migrated to Holland to escape persecution. There they came under the influence of the Mennonites and their Anabaptist ideas. (Their leader became a convert to the Mennonites and was excommunicated by the main body.) The congregation adopted some Anabaptist ideas without becoming Mennonites. They began to re-baptize be livers, rejecting infant baptism, by pouring (not by immersion).  They adopted Arminian view of theology which they also found in Holland. In 1611-12, Thomas Helwys led a small group of them back to England to where they founded the first Baptist congregation on English soil. Since they adopted Arminian views, they became known as "General Baptists." This is the beginning of the Baptist Church as a distinct organized denomination.

Another separatist congregation, including among its leadership Brewster, Bradford, and Robinson, to become famous Pilgrim Fathers, in New England, also migrated to Holland. In 1616 a portion of this congregation returned to England. In 1620, another portion sailed to New England and established the Plymouth Colony. This was the beginning of the Congregational Church in America. In 1638, a group split from the Congregational Church in England and formed a Baptist Church. They, however, retained their Calvinistic theology, and came to be known as "Particular Baptists." In 1604-41 immersion became the mode of baptism among Baptists.

In 1689 a Bill of Rights put an end to the attempt to force dissenters (from Puritanism) to worship according to the "Book of Common Prayer." This act declared that no Roman Catholic may ever wear the crown of England (as did James II). As a result of this new freedom, four dissenting groups formally leave the Church of England and form separate denominations: The Presbyterians; The congregationalists; The Baptists; The Quakers
Where on earth did you get that information?

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Re: When did Baptist come to be?
« Reply #105 on: Tue Mar 16, 2010 - 08:18:42 »

Offline pointmade

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Re: When did Baptist come to be?
« Reply #106 on: Tue Mar 16, 2010 - 20:05:26 »
Hello Parson...You ask: "Where on earth did you get that information?"

You have to dig back into the early reformed movement of Protestantism.  You have to begin with the Lutheran Reformation (1517-1555) and work your way down through history as the Reformers broke rank with Rome.

There were more rebellions and life lost during the Reformation than in all our wars. You can read: "A History of Christianity, vol. 2: Reformation to the Present, A.D. 1500-1975. New York: Harper and Row. ( I believe there is now a revised edition) by Kenneth Scott Latourette.  Also: "Paradise Lost" by John Milton; "The Pilgrime's Progress" by John Bunyan; "Essay Concerning Human Understanding" by John Lock. You will gain topical knowledge of such things as the evolution and significance of Protestant soteriology, the effects of Protestant thought on "Americanism," and the issues which are now important to the Protestant-Evangelical mind.
 

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Re: When did Baptist come to be?
« Reply #106 on: Tue Mar 16, 2010 - 20:05:26 »

Offline The Parson

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Re: When did Baptist come to be?
« Reply #107 on: Wed Mar 17, 2010 - 08:27:54 »
Those Baptists weren't from the "reformation" my friend and had no beginning in 1607. More like 80 A.D.

Ulrich Zwingli, who was a contemporary with Martin Luther and John Calvin, at the council meeting of the city of Zurich, Switzerland took action to decree death by drowning as the penalty for all those "who persisted in the heresy of Anabaptism." When he brought charges against certain baptists, he wrote "The institution of Anabaptism is no novelty, but for thirteen hundred years has caused great disturbance in the church, and has acquired such a strength that the attempt in this age to contend with it appears futile for a time."

Only those who at one time or another symbolized with Rome and then left in protest were named Protestants. Sir Isaac Newton, the prominent English scientist, philosopher, mathematician, historian, and student of the Scriptures when asked about the age of the Baptist brethren said: "The modern Baptists formerly called Anabaptists are the only people that never symbolized with the Papacy."

History revisionists over the past 4 or 5 centuries, have tried their best to refute many prominent historians by tying the Baptists to the Protestants but the more ancient history still exists to deny that assertion.

Offline pointmade

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Re: When did Baptist come to be?
« Reply #108 on: Sat Mar 20, 2010 - 15:13:38 »
Parson: "Those Baptists weren't from the "reformation" my friend and had no beginning in 1607. More like 80 A.D.'

 Interesting.....I can't find from any of the early "church fathers" (80 A.D.) the term "Baptist." I can read in history where a "separatist" congregation migrated to Holland to escape persecution from the  Church of England. There they came under the influence of the Mennonites and their Anabaptist ideas. Their leader became a convert to the Mennonites and was excommunicated by the main body, The congregation adopted some Anabaptist ideas without becoming Mennonites. They began to re baptize believers, rejecting infant baptism, by pouring (not immersion). They rejected Armenian view of theology which  they also found in Holland. In 1611-12, Thomas Helwys led a small group of them back to England where he founded the first Baptist congregation on English soil.

I was in Munfordville, Kentucky not too long ago and came across a small "Separate Baptist Church" in the heart of Amish country. Their preacher informed me that the "Separate Baptist's were the true Baptist."

I find that "Calvinism" is not a theological system "invented" by John Calvin. Most of his components can be found in Augustine (d. A.D. 430).
Most of the system was already being taught by earlier reformers, especially Luther and Zwingli. Calvin took over most of what Zwingli (d. 1531) had taught, and developed it into a consistent systematic theology set forth in his "Institutes of the Christian Religion".  The "five points" of Calvinism were not formulated as such until the Synod of Dort in the Neitherlands in 1618 and even then not in the order usually found today.

I find that "Calvinism" is not exactly equivalent to "Reformed theology," but is rather a part of this more comprehensive system of theology.
"Reformed theology" is the whole scope of theology as developed by Calvin, including especially the doctrines of the church and of the "sacraments."
"Calvinism" usually refers to the specific doctrines of God, sin, and salvation as included within Reformed theology.

Calvinism is not just another name for the "faith only" approach to salvation and baptism. Though most modern-day Calvinists DO teach "faith only," this has not always been associated with this type of theology. E.g., Augustine and Luther both adamantly taught that baptism is essential for salvation, with few exceptions. Also, many of those who hold a "faith-only" view are NOT Calvinists, e.g., Wesleyans and many congregations called "Baptists".

I find that many Calvinists disagree among themselves on some points, e.g., limited atonement whether reprobation is parallel to election, and whether God loves all people or only the elect. Calvinism became the theological norm for Protestantism.

« Last Edit: Sat Mar 20, 2010 - 15:24:08 by pointmade »

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Re: When did Baptist come to be?
« Reply #108 on: Sat Mar 20, 2010 - 15:13:38 »

Offline The Parson

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Re: When did Baptist come to be?
« Reply #109 on: Sat Mar 20, 2010 - 15:31:18 »
I'd be more than happy to bring out that history if the board owners don't have a problem with it. Seems that every time a Baptist historian brings thing to light there is a ruckus. I spent 30 years of my life studying the subject going well beyond JM Carroll and the Trail of Blood. Let me check and see if it's kosher with the board owner and I'll get right back with you.

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Re: When did Baptist come to be?
« Reply #109 on: Sat Mar 20, 2010 - 15:31:18 »



ex cathedra

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Re: When did Baptist come to be?
« Reply #110 on: Sat Mar 20, 2010 - 22:40:06 »
Moses was the first Baptist.



Can anyone tell me when the Baptist came to be a separate group by name?
Was it before the restoration movement or during?
Does anyone know just who gets the credit for starting this group?
What is the history on the Baptist?


Even earlier.  It was founded by John the Baptist around 26 AD.

 ::takingphoto::


I always assumed he was called the Baptist because of all the baptisms he did. However, we could say he was the first Baptist.

J.M. Carroll, born January 8, 1858 and died January 10, 1931, wrote a short book titled The Trail of Blood. It is about the origin of Baptists. I have no idea how accurate it is, but you can find it online and print it out as I did; it's only 46 pages. I've seen and once had a copy of it--so I know it's still printed. You might be able to find or order a copy in a Christian store. Carroll was more than 70-years-old when he wrote it and must have died shortly after writing it since he was 73 when he died.

In the book, there is a quote from Sir Isaac Newton: "The Baptists are the only known body of Christians that have never symbolized with Rome." That means that Baptists were never a part of the Roman Catholic Church and formed completely separate from that religion. That is why I refuse to call myself a "Protestant", which refers to those religions (all except Baptist) who were once a part of the RCC and left and formed a new religion.

I just printed it today and haven't had time to read but I will. I have no idea if he gives the actual date of when Baptists began, but it's something I would like to know.




Can anyone tell me when the Baptist came to be a separate group by name?
Was it before the restoration movement or during?
Does anyone know just who gets the credit for starting this group?
What is the history on the Baptist?


it all depends on what baptist you ask and if you hurry you can edit wikipedia  so you can make up your own story where they came from in case you dont like the other stories .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptist

Offline The Parson

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Re: When did Baptist come to be?
« Reply #111 on: Sun Mar 21, 2010 - 12:21:03 »
Actually, if you will quote historians from the 19th century and before, the history is pretty clear.

Offline JohnDB

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Re: When did Baptist come to be?
« Reply #112 on: Mon Mar 22, 2010 - 07:48:34 »
Actually, if you will quote historians from the 19th century and before, the history is pretty clear.

He probably won't care...he is CoC...

But the calvinists of the forum will care...they hate actual Baptist history because it does show that the Calvinists used to persecute the Baptists.

Nothing like a little shift in history to make yourself the forefather of a denomination is there?

But...yeah...you are correct in what it is that you are saying. The Anabaptists and Arminians didn't kill the Baptists like the Calvinists did...
And considering that the Baptists were such a small group...one of the smallest if not the smallest. (most ignore them because they were so small a group and simply lump them in with the others)

The Southern Baptist convention did grow hugely in the SouthEast when loans for Church buildings were practically impossible from banks. The literature also was the best and most hermeneutics teaching at the same time. (also written by pastors of member Churches)

Today the SBC resembles little of the original organization and is doomed for failure soon enough. The literature is watered down morality lessons. Hermeneutics are not taught any longer. And the Calvinists are fighting and gaining ground for control of the organization.  Once that happens I figure it won't take long for it to no longer be a convention but a hierarchical organization. 

I don't see things getting better...if anything I see them gradually getting worse as time marches on. The truth is not taught as far as history. People aren't being taught to feed themselves. Those in leadership are more concerned with numbers than righteousness. It is becoming a "good guy" club.

Ahh well...all good things here on Earth have to end sometime.

Offline pointmade

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Re: When did Baptist come to be?
« Reply #113 on: Mon Mar 22, 2010 - 12:53:47 »
ex-catherda: "That is why I refuse to call myself a "Protestant", which refers to those religions (all except Baptist) who were once a part of the RCC and left and formed a new religion."

Interesting...what is the doctrine of this "new religion"?

"But...yeah...you are correct in what it is that you are saying. The Anabaptists and Arminians didn't kill the Baptists like the Calvinists did...
And considering that the Baptists were such a small group...one of the smallest if not the smallest. (most ignore them because they were so small a group and simply lump them in with the others)."

Interesting...Do you have any reference that I could rely on that the "Antibaptist killed any Baptists"? I can only find where the Anabaptist a name given to them by their enemies because they rejected infant baptism, they baptized converts who had been baptized as infants.

I have found two important leaders in Conrad Grebel and Felix Mann that broke from Zwingli. This would make, historically, the Anabaptist an outgrowth of the Reformed movement. They felt that Zwingli leaned too much on the city council and not enough on the Bible. Zwingli wanted the state to support the church and the church to include all within the state. He recognized the authority of council over the church-state. Grebel wanted a "gather"  church; i.e., a church of devout believers only and who accepted only the authority of the Bible. (Separation of Church and State.)

I have found from Kenneth Scott Latourette "A History of Christianity, vol 2: New York: Harper and Roe," most of my history back ground.  He sums up the persecution of the Anabaptist" who called for toleration and persecuted no one, The Roman Catholic, Reformed, Lutheran persecuted the Anabaptist, and persecuted them cruelly. The Anabaptists in Holland suffered such tortures as: racks, dungeons, roasted to death before slow fires, drowned, buried alive, pressed into coffin too small for their bodies, stamped to death." "In 1529 the imperial meeting at Speyer declared with the concurrence alike  of Catholics and Lutherans that the death penalty should be inflicted upon the Anabaptists. Menno Simons, one of their leaders, reported the outcome of the many atrocities".

Think of it...The main theological objection,  as leaving babies unbaptized and thus placing them in jeopardy of hell was the main objection of the Anabaptist persecution by both Catholic and Protestants.........The results of the persecution: the Anabaptist were very nearly wiped out. They became, and remain, a numerically small movement. The remnants of the Anabaptist  movement can be found in the Mennonites named mainly for their leader Menno Simons.

The Amish, named for Peter Amno were the right wing, conservative branch of the Mennonites.  A settlement in Wisconsin is an example of an Anabaptist group named after Amno "Ammana."


Offline AChristian

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Re: When did Baptist come to be?
« Reply #114 on: Sat May 08, 2010 - 11:24:13 »
Baptists teach salvation by faith ALONE before and apart from baptism, but this doctrine was not taught before the Protestant Reformation.  Huldreich Zwingli seems to be the father of this teaching. 

Offline John 6

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Re: When did Baptist come to be?
« Reply #115 on: Wed May 26, 2010 - 16:05:41 »
Can you show me a first, second or third century church father that believed in So la Fide?  Can you give me an example of a first, second or third Century Church Father who was a Baptist?  Can you produce any written history of the Baptist Church before the reformation.  Who were their deacons, bishops and/or leaders and what did they teach?  I want to actually see the writings.
 ???

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Re: When did Baptist come to be?
« Reply #116 on: Mon May 31, 2010 - 12:37:33 »
Can anyone tell me when the Baptist came to be a separate group by name?
Was it before the restoration movement or during?
Does anyone know just who gets the credit for starting this group?
What is the history on the Baptist?

There are 28 separate Baptist denominations in the USA, the Baptist originated in London in 1607 A.D by John Smythe.

The Baptist is NOT the Bible Church which began in Jerusalem on the day of Pentacost, it is merely a man made church.
Matt:16:18; Eph4:4; Col1:18.

I hope this helps...

Offline EmbsComputerArt

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Re: When did Baptist come to be?
« Reply #117 on: Tue Jun 01, 2010 - 01:27:42 »
The term "Baptist" can be traced to "John the Baptist" who "baptized" in the Jordan River (Matthew 3).  Here baptism simply means "immersion."  This however, much to the dismay of the baptist briders, is not the same thing as the baptist church today.  John's baptism was for a different purpose than for which we baptized today.  John's said in John 1:31

And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
(KJV)

John's own disciples had to be instructed in the ways of Christ more fully and be rebaptized.


Acts 18:25-26
25   This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
26   And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
(KJV)


And


Acts 19:1-5
1   And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2   He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3   And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4   Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5   When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
(KJV)

So now that we have established that John did not found the baptist church of today we can attempt to answer the question of when believers became known as baptists.  First another word was used, that is "ana-baptists."  Ana being a Greek prefix for back, up, or again.  This term was used because those that converted to Christianity from Roman Catholicism were baptized again by the group known as the ana-baptists.  Therefore Paul was the first ana-baptist by practice for he re-baptized those who had already been baptized by John.
The term however is mostly applied to those in Germany around the time of the reformation and thereafter.  Their lineage can be traced back simply by finding groups that agree on their principle practice, that is, they never baptized infants and re-baptized adults AFTER conversion by full immersion, and refusal to convert others by force (soul liberty), a refusal to marry church to state.  So throughout history they can be identified by various named such as Paulicians, Bulgarians, Paterines, Burgundians, Bogomiles, Armenians, Cathari, and Mennonites, Baptists, Anabaptists, and later called, Fundamentalists, Bible Believers, etc. etc.
60 congregations of baptists were present by 1576 and many settled in hungary and transylvania.
Baptists as a group have been persecuted by both Roman Catholics and Protestants.  For example 65 were killed by protestants in kitzbuhel, 66 at rattenburg and 22 at kuffstein and the catholics killed over a thousand baptists in tyrol between 1500 and 1531.
An example of how terminology describing the baptists changed through time is that Dr. Dermont and Dr. Ypeig in reporting matters to the king of Holland said "The Baptists, who were formerly called Anabaptists and in latter time Mennonites, were the original Waldenses."
My research had led me to believe that the term Anabaptist was used as early as 1400 AD and Baptist around 1500 until today.
Charles Hadden Spurgeon said in 1861 in a sermon delivered in Metropolitan Tabernacle that "We believe that the Baptists are the original Christs.  We did not commence our existence at teh reformation, we were reformers before Luther and Calvin were born; we never came from the Church of Rome, for we were never in it, but we have an unbroken line up to the apostles themselves.  We have always existed from the very days of Christ, and our principles, sometimes veiled and forgotten, like a river which may travel under ground for a little season, have always had honest and holy adherents.  Persecuted alike by Romanists and Protestants of almost every sect, yet there has never existed a Government holding Baptist principles which persecuted others; nor, I believe, any body of Baptists ever held it to be right to put the consciences of others under the control of man.  We have ever been ready to suffer, as our martyrologies will prove, but we are not ready to accept any help from the State, to prostitute the purity of the Bridge of Christ to any alliance with Government, and we will never make the Church, although the Queen, the despot over the consciences of men."
The Baptist Church is not organized into a single unit, though the southern baptist convention has tried.  They are independently run bodies of believers.  See my other post on this issue.
See Ruckman's Church History Volume I pages 238, 300-301, 306, 308, 480-481, 499-507, 515, 519-520, 532, 538, 544-548, 550, 556, 558, 617 for baptist and anabaptist.
And also see What Hath God Wrought, A Biblical Interpretation of American History by William Grady in the index (list too long to give here).

Hope that helps.

Offline John 6

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Re: When did Baptist come to be?
« Reply #118 on: Tue Jun 01, 2010 - 05:33:42 »
I have wondered what Ana Baptist meant.  Thank you for the education.  

It is my understanding that Christians did not start calling themselves Baptist until after the reformation.  I think it is common Knowledge that the name Baptist came from the John the Baptist. I think the real question is who was first to establish the Theology of the Baptist Church. I would like to know who are the Early Church Fathers of the Baptist Church. What is the history from the first century Baptist Christian up to the reformation.  Where can we find the writings of these Church Fathers?
 

 

     
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