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Offline MeMyself

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In which Paul becomes all things to all people
« on: Thu Mar 22, 2018 - 10:43:37 »
1 Corinthians 9: 16 For when I preach the gospel, I cannot boast, since I am compelled to preach. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel! 17If I preach voluntarily, I have a reward; if not voluntarily, I am simply discharging the trust committed to me. 18What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make full use of my rights as a preacher of the gospel.
19Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

I have always thought this passage extraordinary...and I admire Paul's fervent desire to speak to people in ways they are best suited to hear him so that some might be saved.

And, I wonder if the Church hasn't lost a bit of this heart for the lost?  Do we still want the heart of Jesus and His salvation to be heard, so we show the grace of Romans 14 and let our speech be seasoned with the salt of that patient grace, or do we staunchly stand demanding that others conform to us and our exact doctrines and seasons of life and maturity because we are right and we know it?

Thoughts?


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In which Paul becomes all things to all people
« on: Thu Mar 22, 2018 - 10:43:37 »

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: In which Paul becomes all things to all people
« Reply #1 on: Thu Mar 22, 2018 - 11:09:09 »
I think there is a balance that has to be reached. In Romans 14 the very first verse says "Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations."

So yes receive those who are weak in the the faith, those who are just on the milk learning the doctrines of God as Paul alludes to in Hebrews to patiently teach them "first principles of the oracles of God".


But it also says "but not to doubtful disputations"


A little over a year ago there was a fellow full of doubtful disputations. He went by Artypop. I was patiently trying to get him through the elementary doctrines of God. But others felt differently & when they no longer could tolerate his doubtful disputations & banned him from commenting. I didn't say a word. I didn't particularly like what was done. But I understood why.


I would say Artypop was very good example full of "doubtful disputations'. Maybe even an extreme example.


For the good of the brethren, sometimes that has to be done.


In right before Paul's writes his own short Eulogy at the end of 2 Timothy 4 Paul states;

"1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry."


That is very important too.


Rebuking & reproving is a very difficult thing. Even more difficult when one is trying to be gracious.

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Re: In which Paul becomes all things to all people
« Reply #1 on: Thu Mar 22, 2018 - 11:09:09 »

Offline MeMyself

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Re: In which Paul becomes all things to all people
« Reply #2 on: Thu Mar 22, 2018 - 11:15:27 »
I think there is a balance that has to be reached. In Romans 14 the very first verse says "Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations."

So yes receive those who are weak in the the faith, those who are just on the milk learning the doctrines of God as Paul alludes to in Hebrews to patiently teach them "first principles of the oracles of God".


But it also says "but not to doubtful disputations"


A little over a year ago there was a fellow full of doubtful disputations. He went by Artypop. I was patiently trying to get him through the elementary doctrines of God. But others felt differently & when they no longer could tolerate his doubtful disputations & banned him from commenting. I didn't say a word. I didn't particularly like what was done. But I understood why.


I would say Artypop was very good example full of "doubtful disputations'. Maybe even an extreme example.


For the good of the brethren, sometimes that has to be done.

I agree...but should one on one discipling or friendship be banned, or would that perhaps still be effective, even more so actually?


Quote
In right before Paul's writes his own short Eulogy at the end of 2 Timothy 4 Paul states;

"1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry."


That is very important too.


Rebuking & reproving is a very difficult thing. Even more difficult when one is trying to be gracious.

It is VERY difficult, because usually by the times things have come to that, our emotions have lead us in anger...or am I the only one that struggles with that?  ::hiding::

I know it is a needed part of the balance of a sincere walk with Christ, but are we in balance or have we tipped so far to the side of a quick rebuke and condemnation? ::shrug::

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: In which Paul becomes all things to all people
« Reply #3 on: Thu Mar 22, 2018 - 12:13:33 »
I agree...but should one on one discipling or friendship be banned, or would that perhaps still be effective, even more so actually?

I would say one has to decide on an individual basis. Eventually one may come to a point when they realise they just can't help someone.

I've done that twice with two different people.

One was a fellow that I knew frem when he was a just teenager. Seemed like a decent kid. Came from a broken home with no father figure. I tried to be a role model & a friend. It did no good. As a man he became a drug addict. Even then I tried to help him for years. It seemed when he was always at the very bottom he showed up at my doorstep. I'd feed him, house him, clean him up, get him healthier, pay him to do some work for me. Witness to him best I knew how. This went on for years. Eventually he stole a van from & I haven't seen him since. I still pray for him. I don't know if he is alive or dead. though he maybe dead because one of his school mates called me almost a year ago wondering if I had heard from him because he hasn't. All that said, I have to admit it is relief not having to deal with him anymore.

The other fellow liked to come visit. Liked to way over stay his welcome. He was one of those full of doubtful disputations. Claims he is a Christian, but lives a life completely opposite. He seemed to enjoy debating off the wall doctrines. Our last visit he wanted to show me pictures on his phone of him doing "things" with a woman. It was shocking. I think he did it just to make me blush. I told him he can't live that way, it's just wrong. He left. Then later he got mad & cussed me over facebook messenger, then blocked me so I could not reply. That was definitely a relief. I still feel sorry for him. I still pray for him, but not a lot.

It is VERY difficult, because usually by the times things have come to that, our emotions have lead us in anger...or am I the only one that struggles with that?  ::hiding::

I know it is a needed part of the balance of a sincere walk with Christ, but are we in balance or have we tipped so far to the side of a quick rebuke and condemnation? ::shrug::


I don't really struggle much with anger. Not that I don't have any triggers, I do, but they are very few.




The quick rebuke thing may well be the nature of how forums on the internet conditions people. Just about every commenting section everywhere on the internet seems adversarial enabling folks to easily be so or just seem so.


Like dealing with any emotion such as anger, we all need to work diligently not be so because of how our brains work. Scientifically they now use the term Amygdala Hijack. Emotionalism stems from our primitive fight or flight instincts & too me it seems internet conversations, the adversarial conditioning, helps enable these responses. I've posted videos about these things before; Amygdala Hijack & Neuroplasticity. One of the reasons why prayer works. We engage the area where higher brain function resides & it shuts down the primitive negative emotional area. I kind of nerdy on things like this. I find it fascinating how God designed us, & even the solutions He gave us.


edit:


I think what really astounds me is how much ahead the Bible really is. Seems it has just been recently that the some science is just catching up. Paul explained "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. "

When we engage our minds with the the true, the honest, the just, the pure, the lovely, the good, the virtuous, the praiseworthy, we're literally reprogramming ourselves. Creating new neural pathways & the more we use them the better off we are.


It seems the devil knows this because his media is full of the stuff that drags us down & reinforces negative thinking & emotions.
« Last Edit: Thu Mar 22, 2018 - 13:38:37 by TonkaTim »

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Re: In which Paul becomes all things to all people
« Reply #3 on: Thu Mar 22, 2018 - 12:13:33 »

Offline MeMyself

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Re: In which Paul becomes all things to all people
« Reply #4 on: Thu Mar 22, 2018 - 14:03:51 »
I would say one has to decide on an individual basis. Eventually one may come to a point when they realise they just can't help someone.

I've done that twice with two different people.

One was a fellow that I knew frem when he was a just teenager. Seemed like a decent kid. Came from a broken home with no father figure. I tried to be a role model & a friend. It did no good. As a man he became a drug addict. Even then I tried to help him for years. It seemed when he was always at the very bottom he showed up at my doorstep. I'd feed him, house him, clean him up, get him healthier, pay him to do some work for me. Witness to him best I knew how. This went on for years. Eventually he stole a van from & I haven't seen him since. I still pray for him. I don't know if he is alive or dead. though he maybe dead because one of his school mates called me almost a year ago wondering if I had heard from him because he hasn't. All that said, I have to admit it is relief not having to deal with him anymore.

The other fellow liked to come visit. Liked to way over stay his welcome. He was one of those full of doubtful disputations. Claims he is a Christian, but lives a life completely opposite. He seemed to enjoy debating off the wall doctrines. Our last visit he wanted to show me pictures on his phone of him doing "things" with a woman. It was shocking. I think he did it just to make me blush. I told him he can't live that way, it's just wrong. He left. Then later he got mad & cussed me over facebook messenger, then blocked me so I could not reply. That was definitely a relief. I still feel sorry for him. I still pray for him, but not a lot.


I don't really struggle much with anger. Not that I don't have any triggers, I do, but they are very few.




The quick rebuke thing may well be the nature of how forums on the internet conditions people. Just about every commenting section everywhere on the internet seems adversarial enabling folks to easily be so or just seem so.


Like dealing with any emotion such as anger, we all need to work diligently not be so because of how our brains work. Scientifically they now use the term Amygdala Hijack. Emotionalism stems from our primitive fight or flight instincts & too me it seems internet conversations, the adversarial conditioning, helps enable these responses. I've posted videos about these things before; Amygdala Hijack & Neuroplasticity. One of the reasons why prayer works. We engage the area where higher brain function resides & it shuts down the primitive negative emotional area. I kind of nerdy on things like this. I find it fascinating how God designed us, & even the solutions He gave us.


edit:


I think what really astounds me is how much ahead the Bible really is. Seems it has just been recently that the some science is just catching up. Paul explained "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. "

When we engage our minds with the the true, the honest, the just, the pure, the lovely, the good, the virtuous, the praiseworthy, we're literally reprogramming ourselves. Creating new neural pathways & the more we use them the better off we are.


It seems the devil knows this because his media is full of the stuff that drags us down & reinforces negative thinking & emotions.

man, Tonka...such a good post! Lots to glean from and I thank you!

I agree that sometimes, people who are especially difficult or drag us down too terribly need to be given firm boundaries with, for our own sanity and peace and so that we not stumble in our faith; and sometimes a relationship cannot be pursued...but I do think its supposed to be the exception and not the rule.

as for anger...I am the sort that seems not to struggle with a TON of anger, but when I do have enough, am likely to BLOW..ugh. Not something I am proud of, but I know my limitations and try to avoid being pushed to that point like the plague...still when I fail, God is good to forgive me and urge me to seek forgiveness from the one I blew up at.

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Re: In which Paul becomes all things to all people
« Reply #4 on: Thu Mar 22, 2018 - 14:03:51 »



Offline NorrinRadd

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Re: In which Paul becomes all things to all people
« Reply #5 on: Thu Mar 22, 2018 - 14:38:00 »
I think there is a balance that has to be reached. In Romans 14 the very first verse says "Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations."
 ...

This is one of those places where KJV-ese is utterly opaque to me.  Thus --

"Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters." -- NIV2011

"Now accept the one who is weak in faith, [but] not for [the purpose of] passing judgment on his opinions." -- NASB

"Now receive the one who is weak in the faith, and do not have disputes over differing opinions." -- NET

"Accept anyone who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of arguing over differences of opinion." -- ISV

"As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions." -- ESV2011


The context seems to be that the "strong" in faith don't concern themselves with legalistic minutiae, while the "weak" in faith do.  But this is generally not something to fight about.  Better that the "strong" at times go along with following unnecessary rules than that they somehow cause the weak to stumble.

Other passages, of course, are not so conciliatory.  Col. 2 and Galatians encourage a more forceful stance against submitting to legalism.

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Re: In which Paul becomes all things to all people
« Reply #6 on: Thu Mar 22, 2018 - 14:54:31 »
Thoughts?
Great scriptures, few understand. I would love to take your post and answer it the Salvation thread that's up and going at the present, it would fit perfectly there. The Salvation under consideration by Paul is STRICTLY practical, not vital! And YES, we should become all things to all people that we may save them from the err of their way. I do labor toward many here, and trust they would toward me if they believe that their brother is in error. Would you mind if I make a post there using your words?

Offline MeMyself

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Re: In which Paul becomes all things to all people
« Reply #7 on: Thu Mar 22, 2018 - 15:34:26 »
Great scriptures, few understand. I would love to take your post and answer it the Salvation thread that's up and going at the present, it would fit perfectly there. The Salvation under consideration by Paul is STRICTLY practical, not vital!

How do you come by this understanding, Red?

Here is a commentary I trust on this subject
https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/1-corinthians-9-22.html
"that I might by all means save some;
that is, that he might be the means of saving some of Jews and Gentiles, and of all sorts of men; by preaching the Gospel of salvation to them, and by directing them to Christ, the only Saviour of lost sinners; thus he explains what he means by so often saying that he might gain them. "

Quote
And YES, we should become all things to all people that we may save them from the err of their way. I do labor toward many here, and trust they would toward me if they believe that their brother is in error.

I'm not sure I can agree that this is just about making them aware of error of their ways is the issue though...seems to limit the passage into an agenda...

« Last Edit: Thu Mar 22, 2018 - 15:44:39 by MeMyself »

Offline TonkaTim

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Re: In which Paul becomes all things to all people
« Reply #8 on: Thu Mar 22, 2018 - 16:28:04 »
This is one of those places where KJV-ese is utterly opaque to me.  Thus --

"Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters." -- NIV2011

"Now accept the one who is weak in faith, [but] not for [the purpose of] passing judgment on his opinions." -- NASB

"Now receive the one who is weak in the faith, and do not have disputes over differing opinions." -- NET

"Accept anyone who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of arguing over differences of opinion." -- ISV

"As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions." -- ESV2011


The context seems to be that the "strong" in faith don't concern themselves with legalistic minutiae, while the "weak" in faith do.  But this is generally not something to fight about.  Better that the "strong" at times go along with following unnecessary rules than that they somehow cause the weak to stumble.

Other passages, of course, are not so conciliatory.  Col. 2 and Galatians encourage a more forceful stance against submitting to legalism.


This is where I think KJV got it right. When you look at Stong's Exhaustive Concordance we find the word to mean;


That same Greek word, διακρίσεις, is also used in Philippians 2:14 which is translated in almost all translations as such;



There is a limit to Christian liberty, which I would use the phrase 'temperate liberty'. Without temperance it is no longer liberty but libertinism or legalism which are both bondage. One is the return to the bondage of sin & the other is the return to the bondage of the law. Neither should be received & is consistent with basic Christian doctrine.


Without this understanding it seems to lead to problems we see in the pulpit today. On one hand there are strict tyrants & on the other we find blatant libertines.

Offline NorrinRadd

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Re: In which Paul becomes all things to all people
« Reply #9 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 00:35:21 »

This is where I think KJV got it right. When you look at Stong's Exhaustive Concordance we find the word to mean;

Hmm.  The two words in question are "doubtful" and "disputations."

Similar to what you show, my software links "disputations" to 1253, "diakrisis," in Strong's Greek lexicon; "doubtful" links to "dialogismos," 1261 in Strong's Greek lexicon.

NASB links "passing judgment" to 1253 (diakrisis) and "opinions" to 1261 (dialogismos).

Most lexicons, including the NASB lexicon, Thayer, LSJ, and Danker roughly agree that 1253, diakrisis, means something along the lines of "judge, distinguish, discriminate," and 1261 dialogismos means something along the lines of "reasoning, clash of ideas, dispute."  (I believe it is the root of our word, "dialogue," but carries a more forceful sense.)


Quote
That same Greek word, διακρίσεις, is also used in Philippians 2:14 which is translated in almost all translations as such;

I'm sorry, that's not correct.  The word occurs exactly three times in the NT:

Rom. 14:1
1 Cor. 12:10
Heb. 5:14


Quote
There is a limit to Christian liberty, which I would use the phrase 'temperate liberty'. Without temperance it is no longer liberty but libertinism or legalism which are both bondage. One is the return to the bondage of sin & the other is the return to the bondage of the law. Neither should be received & is consistent with basic Christian doctrine.


Without this understanding it seems to lead to problems we see in the pulpit today. On one hand there are strict tyrants & on the other we find blatant libertines.

I'm not sure there's an obvious infallible way to resolve that tension.

For my part, I've become convinced the large majority of cases are covered by Love one another / Love your neighbor as yourself / Treat others as you wish others to treat you.

Offline MeMyself

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Re: In which Paul becomes all things to all people
« Reply #10 on: Fri Mar 23, 2018 - 10:05:20 »
I'm not sure there's an obvious infallible way to resolve that tension.

For my part, I've become convinced the large majority of cases are covered by Love one another / Love your neighbor as yourself / Treat others as you wish others to treat you.

Me to...that's the rule I live by and the rebuke is something that is needed very rarely, if I'm willing to be patient and put my faith in God and His timing that is.

 

     
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