An argument from the Shepherd's Fellowship forums

The Non-Calvinist or Arminian theological position amounts to a practical accusation against God of either dishonesty or inaccuracy. Since I’m sure none of our Arminian or Non-Calvinist brethren would ever intentionally call God a liar or suggest that He is wrong or in error about anything, I challenge any Non-Calvinist to vindicate his theology from this charge by answering the following four questions:

Question 1

Moses said, “If…thou shalt seek the Lord thy God, thou shalt find Him, IF thou seek Him with all they heart and all thy soul” (Deut. 4:29). Isaiah equivocated seeking the Lord with calling on Him: “Seek ye the Lord while He may be found, call ye upon Him while He is near” (Is. 55:6). And of course, “Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Rom. 10:13).

...BUT—the Word of God says very plainly: “There is NONE that seeketh after God” (Rom. 3:11).

Yet there are many people who have been and continue to be saved. But if the Holy Spirit-inspired text of Scripture says “There is NONE that seeketh after God”, and if salvation happens ONLY as a result of a person seeking God, then every time someone is saved, it makes God a liar, because He said “There is NONE that seeketh after God.”

...So, we ask—Did God lie when He made that statement, or was He mistaken, or is there another possible explanation?

Question 2

2...The Word of God says plainly, “There is no man that sinneth not” (1 Kings 8:46), indeed, “There is not a just man upon earth that doeth good and sinneth not” (Ecc. 7:20).

...The Lord Jesus Christ said, “I am the light of the world” (Jn. 8:12), and “I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on Me should not abide in darkness” (Jn. 12:46). There is no way to be saved apart from coming to the Light, that is, coming to the Lord Jesus Christ, because “there is no other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved” (Ac. 4:12). So, people are saved when they come to the light.

...BUT—the Word of God says very plainly: “EVERY ONE that doeth evil hateth the light, NEITHER COMETH TO THE LIGHT” (Jn. 3:20). Therefore, since all men are sinners, they all fall into the category of “every one that doeth evil”—therefore all men hate the light and do not come to it. But, if the Holy Spirit-inspired text of Scripture says, “Every one that doeth evil (every human being) hateth the light (Jesus Christ), neither cometh to the light”, then every time someone is saved, it makes God a liar because He said the only way a person can be saved is to come to Jesus Christ, the Light of the world.

...So, again, we ask—since people are being saved every day, did God lie when He stated that all human beings hate the light and none of them come to the light? Was He mistaken when He said that, or is there another possible explanation?

QUESTION 3

3...We know that only the gospel is “the power of God unto salvation” (Rom. 1:16)—nobody can be saved apart from hearing and believing the gospel (Rom. 10:13-15).

...The apostle Peter wrote that evangelists “preached the gospel...WITH the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven” (1 Pet. 1:12). Therefore, the gospel can properly be described as one of “the things of the Spirit of God” (1 Cor. 2:14).

...People who are condemned are described as “them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved” (2 Thess. 2:10). So it is evident that receiving the gospel is the path to salvation, and not receiving the gospel forfeits salvation.

...BUT—the Word of God says very plainly: “The natural man RECEIVETH NOT the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them” (1 Cor. 2:14). ALL MEN are born into the world in this “natural” condition, because “that which is born of the flesh is flesh” (John 3:6). So therefore, if all men are born and live in this “natural” condition, and “the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God” and the gospel is presented by human preachers “with the Holy Spirit”, then every time someone is saved, it makes God a liar because He said the only way to be saved is to receive the gospel, and yet He also said no man receives the gospel because men are “natural” and the gospel is one of the “things of the Spirit” that they all consider foolishness and therefore reject.

...So, once again we ask—since people are receiving the gospel and being saved every day, did God lie when He said nobody receives the things of the Spirit, or was He mistaken when He made that statement, or is there another possible explanation?

QUESTION 4
4...All men are born in the “natural” condition and are described as being “flesh” and “in the flesh” because “that which is born of the flesh is flesh” (Jn. 3:6). Furthermore, the Word of God says, “They that are in the flesh CANNOT please God” (Rom. 8:8).

...BUT—the Lord Jesus plainly stated, “There is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth” (Luke 15:10). Surely the joy of God is what inspires the joy of the angels “who do always behold the face of My Father which is in heaven” (Mat. 18:10).

...THEREFORE—since repentance is something that pleases God, and all men are naturally “in the flesh” and in that condition they “cannot please God”, then no man is capable of repenting, which is an indispensable element of salvation, for Jesus commanded men to “Repent ye, AND believe the gospel” (Mark 1:15), and He pronounced severe judgment and condemnation on certain cities not just because they did not believe, but “because they repented not” (Mat. 11:20). Therefore, since repentance is necessary for true salvation, being a defining characteristic of true belief in Christ, and since people are repenting and being saved every day, it makes God a liar because He said those who are in the flesh cannot please Him.

...So, once again we ask—Did God lie when He said those who are “in the flesh (all men apart from salvation) cannot please God” and yet people please Him every day by repenting and getting saved? Was He merely mistaken when He made that statement, or is there another possible explanation?

The challenge is very clear: Non-Calvinists and other Arminians are left with four impossible questions to answer: How can people be seeking God and getting saved when God says nobody ever seeks Him? How can people be coming to the light and getting saved when God says nobody ever comes to the light? How can people be receiving the gospel and getting saved when God says nobody ever receives the things of His Spirit, which include the gospel? How can people be pleasing God by repenting and getting saved when God says they cannot please Him, and yet repentance does please Him?

The Calvinist has absolutely no problem answering those questions, and he can do it without distorting the meaning of ANY of the Scriptures on either side of those apparent contradictions. The Non-Calvinist, however, is forced by his unscriptural theology to conclude that God is either lying or mistaken in His statements on one side or the other of the above questions.

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As said above, the Calvinist has an explanation (a Biblical one) about how and why people are getting saved. What is your explanation on how people are getting saved in light of the great "cannot" verses of the Bible?

Now if you believe that as it stands, without qualifiers, then my friend skala, that includes you.  If there are NONE who seek after God, then you do not seek after God.  Are you really ready to state that you do not now seek after God?  I think not.  So then, you must have already placed some qualifiers on that statement as it stands.

So much for the first question.

skala, one of the basic problems that I see with Calvinism, is that it takes biblical hyperbole and builds a whole theology on it.  But only after crafting suitable qualifiers for the hyperbole.

Your statement that Pre-salvation, nobody seeks God is terribly skewed.  If you simply look at the whole world around you you will see that from the beginning of time, man has sought God.  The Egyptians sought their gods, the Incas sought their god, the Babylonians, the Buddhists, the Hindus, on and on.  Nearly every people on earth from all time have tried to find God.

That is a fact that you can not avoid.

The other fact that is apparent to us, is that they were not successful.  It was not UNTIL God revealed Himself to man through special revelation, through His prophets and lastly through Jesus (Heb 1:1).

As far as 2) above:  "We are saved by seeking God".  No, we are not saved by seeking God.  That is a start, but that is not the end.

Go take a look at reply #526 under Can You Be Saved By Faith Only? Do Works Matter?   That will outline the answer for you.

I understand your argument.  You don't understand your question.  If you did, you wouldn't have asked it.

#1 Context.

#2 Context.

#3 Context.

#4 Context.

In addition, reading out of a more recent translation often helps understand the meaning of phrases.  In essence, language is not math.

No time now, but if you start with the question being asked you begin to understand the answer.  The question is never "Does man have free will?" but rather "Does man have the ability to save himself?"  istm that you're mistaking a no on the second question to a no on the first.  Inability to save oneself does not equal an inability to surrender.

Why do those of you who believe as you do, not bother to read the very next verse after John 6:44?   It is certainly true as v.44 states, that unless drawn by the Father, no one can come to Jesus.  But contrary to Calvinism, the drawing is not selective and irresistible; rather it is universal and resistible.  All are drawn to Jesus by the power of the gospel (Rom 1:16).  And Romans 10:17 tells us that faith comes from hearing the gospel preached. See also 2 Thess 2:14)  We hear from Calvinism about piercing the heart and that is called regeneration.  It isn't.  But Hebrews 2:14 tells us what is the manner of the piercing.  It says,

Heb 4:12  For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

This is all quite in keeping with the very next verse after John 6:44 if you would read it.  It says,

John 6:45  "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

On the universal nature of the call, Jesus said, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." (John 12:32)  And by this He referred to the cross (v,33)

It is unfortunate that not all who are drawn will come.  This was the lament of Jesus of His own people, Israel.
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. (Mat 23:37)

As far as who is the elect and who isn't elected...the parable of the man born blind is a Jesus answer to the question.

read it very very very carefully as to the questions and answers...

Jesus does answer this question...Calvinists though usually just chalk it up to another anonymous miracle that doesn't give us any "new information" though...and that their "prophet" John Calvin is right...regardless of what Jesus said.