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Author Topic: Abiding in Christ: The Real Meaning Confronts an Error of Calvinism John 15:1-8  (Read 4688 times)
TommyTsunami
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« on: December 09, 2007, 11:32:03 AM »

Abiding in Christ:  The Real Meaning Confronts an Error of Calvinism

John 15:1-8

The confusion of Calvinism brings to many, misguided ends regarding the proper understanding of Bible texts.  One well known and often cited text that is claimed by a “Dominant Majority” (DM and from here on in the post I refer to the DM and not every single Calvinist) of Calvinists to purportedly support their doctrine of “Perseverance” is John 15, the True Vine and Branches passage.

The Calvinist takes the position that the branches that do not bear fruit and are “aken away” (v1) and/or “cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned” (v6) were never “really” believers or those belonging to Christ (the true vine) in the first place. 

Their contention is that only true believers will be fruit bearing branches and evidence that branches that do not bear fruit aren’t really believers stems (no pun intended) from:

A.   They didn’t bear fruit because they didn’t abide in Christ.
B.   They are removed and described as branches good for only burning.

The Calvinist appeals to the idea that if a believer is truly one of Christ’s then he will abide in Christ and bear fruit because no true believer would be removed and treated as that which is only good to be burned as kindling wood.  Right?

John MacArthur’s ( http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/1551.HTM ) thoughts reflect this view:
Quote
The Father "taketh away" the branches that fail to bear fruit. Verse 2 doesn't say He fixes them up; it says He cuts them off. Verse 6 says that those branches are gathered, thrown into a pile, and burned. The Father deals with them with finality. Now if that refers to a Christian, we've got some problems. I believe that the fruitless branches refer to people who profess to have a relationship to Jesus Christ--who apparently are in the vine as a follower of Christ--but are like Judas and have never been saved. That is obvious because they never bear spiritual fruit. At a certain point in the Father's timing, the fruitless branches are cut off for the life and health of the vine and the other branches. Professing Christians who aren't really saved and therefore don't bear fruit will be cast away and burned in an act of divine punishment.
But since this is not a treatment of the erring Calvinist view but of the text, let’s look at the text and find the problems and solutions regarding what it says:
John 15:1-8
Quote
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
 2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
 3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
 4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
 5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
 6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
 7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
 8Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
The context of this lesson by our Lord is a post-seasonable dressing of the vineyard, right before the dormant season when the most severe pruning occurs (determined by the reference to withered branches use for burning that were cut off during this time).

______________
1. Verse 1 is without dispute among Calvinist and non-Calvinist as to its meaning.  Hence its treatment is minimal.  God the Son is the means of life and fruit for the branches and God the Father is the one that keeps the vineyard.

2. Verse 2 begins with “every branch in me that beareth not fruit”.  Obviously to the undistracted observer the first problem for the Calvinist view is a branch being in Christ and then being determined to not have actually been in Christ but “superficially attached”.  To claim the attachment was not real but superficial violates the claim of Christ Himself, which the branch “is” in Him.  And any branch that is in any vine, especially here, begins its life directly from that vine as a sprout unless it is grafted and here NOTHING about grafting is presented (and even the Calvinist argument doesn’t present a grafting debate).

A branch begins its life IN THE VINE and grows from the vine as a sprout.  It does not become a branch until it has grown to some extent.  And from that vine it did gain sustenance and life. If indeed this branch really was never “truly” attached then how did it sprout from the vine?  How did it grow from a sprout to a branch?  From whence did its nourishment come to become a branch?  From the vine.

You see the dire straights the Calvinist is in here?

Of course the end of the life and purpose of a branch isn’t just to be a sprout or a branch but eventually to bear fruit.  Hence the reason our Lord implores believers to “abide” in Him. 

Believers that experience some growth (but not to mature purpose) are described aptly as ones that do not abide in Christ.  They, at some point, quit getting their nourishment from Christ and fail to bear fruit.

But imagine the Calvinist trying to, in hoping to support his erring doctrine of perseverance, that though this branch clearly is presented as "in" Christ as are fruit bearing branches, and though for it to have come to life it had to spring from the vine and grow, it never really was attached to the vine.  Talk about DRAMATIC CONTRADICTIONS and confusion.

3.  Verse 4 presents the command from Jesus to believers “abide in me”.  There is a significant and telling clue in the Greek grammar here that provides conclusive evidence that abiding is NOT talking about SALVATION but about the post-salvational RELATIONSHIP of the believer to Christ.

The command “abide” is a 2nd Person Plural Aorist Active Imperative. 

The use of the “active” in the Greek means that the subject performs the action of the verb.  The subject of the command “abide in me” is the plural “you”. Jesus is commanding  “(You) abide in me”.

In other words, the abiding is NOT done by Jesus but by the believer, hence that is why Jesus commands the believer to do the abiding.  Jesus doesn't command you to do something He does.  Jesus died for your sins, that is what He does and did and the command to you is to believe.

And in salvation, Jesus KEEPS you saved, that is His job and it is YOUR job to maintain the relationship through obedience, i.e. positive volition to Christ.

So since the command given by Jesus for the believer to do the abiding, the Calvinist is faced with saying that here, that it is up to the BELIEVER to keep themselves saved (since they argue abiding refers to Salvation and not Relationship) and if they don’t abide, well they weren’t really saved or lost their salvation.

In truth, the reality is that the command represents that we, as believers, can choose to NOT abide, hence the very purpose of the command.  The reason we are given commands is because alternative are possible and here the context of the command is for believers to abide, understanding that in the context of a believer's life NOT ABIDING is the alternative.  And if only “true” believers did abide and did not choose to NOT abide, then what is the purpose of the command if by default all believers are guaranteed to abide.

Why?  Because not all believers ARE guaranteed to abide.  But the Calvinist, here, is faced with a dilemma.

If they admit what is present in the text, particularly in the active voice where the believer is commanded to be the one that abides as opposed to Christ keeping them, they have to admit that it is not a SALVATIONAL context but a RELATIONAL context because in a SALVATIONAL context Christ does the keeping and in a RELATIONAL context, we are responsible for maintaining fellowship. For an exhaustive treatment I recommend this article, Viticulture and John 15:1-6, ( http://www.faithalone.org/journal/2005i/derickson.html#_ftn5 )by Gary W. Derickson , Associate Professor of Biblical Studies, Western Baptist College.
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« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2007, 01:04:55 PM »

TommyTsunami

The non productive branches are religious counterfeits, they have a form of Godliness, but deny the power of the gospel.  Just because someone goes to church and carries a bible does not mean that they are Christians.
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« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2007, 01:04:55 PM »

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« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2007, 02:45:30 PM »

Wheat and chaff?
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« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2007, 03:30:33 PM »

How is one "in Christ" (on the vine) but a fake?  You may be able to fool your neighbor, but to abide by MacArthur's interpretation, you'd have had to fool God into thinking you were part of the vine.  I don't buy that, sounds like eisogesis.
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"Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.  He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it."
– 1st Thess. 5:23-24 ESV

"God’s will to save is as wide as His will to create."
– Walter Lock
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« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2007, 04:15:15 PM »

How is one "in Christ" (on the vine) but a fake?  You may be able to fool your neighbor, but to abide by MacArthur's interpretation, you'd have had to fool God into thinking you were part of the vine.  I don't buy that, sounds like eisogesis.
To say one is one the vine "in Christ" but not really is to force a most elementary contradiction.

I notice always that exegetically and hermeneutically the correct interpretation cannot be challenged and isn't challenged in that fashion.  Instead refutations appeal to "eisogesis" or attempting to point to other texts and force on the one in dispute the meanings of those texts or the controversy of those texts.
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TommyTsunami
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« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2007, 04:20:33 PM »

TommyTsunami

The non productive branches are religious counterfeits, they have a form of Godliness, but deny the power of the gospel.  Just because someone goes to church and carries a bible does not mean that they are Christians.
The most clear and immediate problem with your claim is that the branches that do not bear fruit and IDENTICALLY described as the fruit bearing branches as being in Christ.
Quote
2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit
Quote
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit
Non-believers are NEVER described as being "in Christ".  They are outside of Christ.

Secondly, the branches that did not bear fruit came FROM the true vine.  They sprouted from the vine and grew to be a branch.  What is the source of their sprouting?  The true vine.  You have a severe problem claiming that which came from the true vine didn't really come from it nor was it ever really attached since to exist it had to sprout from it.
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« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2007, 04:20:33 PM »

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Dave...
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« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2007, 07:34:58 PM »

http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/1552.HTM

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« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2007, 07:44:16 PM »

How is one "in Christ" (on the vine) but a fake?  You may be able to fool your neighbor, but to abide by MacArthur's interpretation, you'd have had to fool God into thinking you were part of the vine.  I don't buy that, sounds like eisogesis.
To say one is one the vine "in Christ" but not really is to force a most elementary contradiction.

I notice always that exegetically and hermeneutically the correct interpretation cannot be challenged and isn't challenged in that fashion.  Instead refutations appeal to "eisogesis" or attempting to point to other texts and force on the one in dispute the meanings of those texts or the controversy of those texts.
You're reading too much into the question.  I'm willing to concede "in Christ" = "on the vine" could be incorrect, but it is a pretty standard and very widespread interpretation across denominational lines.  So how about we just address the question instead of going off on other rabbit trails?

So, how does one know that the vine includes those outside of a relationship with God, when he's talking to his disciples (hence the belief among many that those on the vine represent those who follow Christ), not a mix of believers and non?  Where's the proof?  (And pointing to Judas to prove that the disciples didn't all include people ultimately faithful is really no proof; it's like using a word in its own definition, like "faith means to have faith in something".)
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"Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.  He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it."
– 1st Thess. 5:23-24 ESV

"God’s will to save is as wide as His will to create."
– Walter Lock
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« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2007, 07:58:58 PM »

Dave...

I read almost every word written by John MacArthur, he has the truth.

I use to listen to his father Jack MacArthur, he was also a very good teacher.  That was probably before your time.
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« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2007, 08:43:40 PM »

How is one "in Christ" (on the vine) but a fake?  You may be able to fool your neighbor, but to abide by MacArthur's interpretation, you'd have had to fool God into thinking you were part of the vine.  I don't buy that, sounds like eisogesis.
To say one is one the vine "in Christ" but not really is to force a most elementary contradiction.

I notice always that exegetically and hermeneutically the correct interpretation cannot be challenged and isn't challenged in that fashion.  Instead refutations appeal to "eisogesis" or attempting to point to other texts and force on the one in dispute the meanings of those texts or the controversy of those texts.
You're reading too much into the question.  I'm willing to concede "in Christ" = "on the vine" could be incorrect, but it is a pretty standard and very widespread interpretation across denominational lines.  So how about we just address the question instead of going off on other rabbit trails?

So, how does one know that the vine includes those outside of a relationship with God, when he's talking to his disciples (hence the belief among many that those on the vine represent those who follow Christ), not a mix of believers and non?  Where's the proof?  (And pointing to Judas to prove that the disciples didn't all include people ultimately faithful is really no proof; it's like using a word in its own definition, like "faith means to have faith in something".)
The context reveals that those on the vine, referred to as "in me (Christ)" are just that, in Christ.

Non-believers are NEVER referred to or treated as IN CHRIST. 

Secondly, the Bible at no place and at no time refers to faith or belief in Christ as partial or non-saving faith for HUMANS. 

The only reference to volitional beings believing and not being saved are DEMONS and the DEMONS are not given the Gospel promise of "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved".

But what you are asking is the duty of the one claiming the BRANCHES did not grow from the vine to prove it otherwise.  The most natural and contextual reading and understanding of this lesson is that the fruitbearing and non fruitbearing branches all were born out of the vine from sprouts to branches.  There is NOTHING to indicate otherwise.

So the refutation that is incumbent is for one to demonstrate how theologically compatible it is for a branch to grow from Christ but NOT REALLY be His and how to be DESCRIBED as being "In Christ" happens while being one that does NOT believe because that description "In Christ" is reserved for those belonging to Christ.
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« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2007, 08:43:40 PM »

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« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2007, 08:55:31 PM »

How is one "in Christ" (on the vine) but a fake?  You may be able to fool your neighbor, but to abide by MacArthur's interpretation, you'd have had to fool God into thinking you were part of the vine.  I don't buy that, sounds like eisogesis.
To say one is one the vine "in Christ" but not really is to force a most elementary contradiction.

I notice always that exegetically and hermeneutically the correct interpretation cannot be challenged and isn't challenged in that fashion.  Instead refutations appeal to "eisogesis" or attempting to point to other texts and force on the one in dispute the meanings of those texts or the controversy of those texts.
You're reading too much into the question.  I'm willing to concede "in Christ" = "on the vine" could be incorrect, but it is a pretty standard and very widespread interpretation across denominational lines.  So how about we just address the question instead of going off on other rabbit trails?

So, how does one know that the vine includes those outside of a relationship with God, when he's talking to his disciples (hence the belief among many that those on the vine represent those who follow Christ), not a mix of believers and non?  Where's the proof?  (And pointing to Judas to prove that the disciples didn't all include people ultimately faithful is really no proof; it's like using a word in its own definition, like "faith means to have faith in something".)
The context reveals that those on the vine, referred to as "in me (Christ)" are just that, in Christ.

Non-believers are NEVER referred to or treated as IN CHRIST. 

Secondly, the Bible at no place and at no time refers to faith or belief in Christ as partial or non-saving faith for HUMANS. 

The only reference to volitional beings believing and not being saved are DEMONS and the DEMONS are not given the Gospel promise of "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved".

But what you are asking is the duty of the one claiming the BRANCHES did not grow from the vine to prove it otherwise.  The most natural and contextual reading and understanding of this lesson is that the fruitbearing and non fruitbearing branches all were born out of the vine from sprouts to branches.  There is NOTHING to indicate otherwise.

So the refutation that is incumbent is for one to demonstrate how theologically compatible it is for a branch to grow from Christ but NOT REALLY be His and how to be DESCRIBED as being "In Christ" happens while being one that does NOT believe because that description "In Christ" is reserved for those belonging to Christ.
A basic lesson in botany and biology will teach you that the branches and the vine are one.  To be a branch is to be one with the vine.  This is elementary.
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"Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.  He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it."
– 1st Thess. 5:23-24 ESV

"God’s will to save is as wide as His will to create."
– Walter Lock
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« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2007, 05:17:55 AM »

How is one "in Christ" (on the vine) but a fake?  You may be able to fool your neighbor, but to abide by MacArthur's interpretation, you'd have had to fool God into thinking you were part of the vine.  I don't buy that, sounds like eisogesis.
To say one is one the vine "in Christ" but not really is to force a most elementary contradiction.

I notice always that exegetically and hermeneutically the correct interpretation cannot be challenged and isn't challenged in that fashion.  Instead refutations appeal to "eisogesis" or attempting to point to other texts and force on the one in dispute the meanings of those texts or the controversy of those texts.
You're reading too much into the question.  I'm willing to concede "in Christ" = "on the vine" could be incorrect, but it is a pretty standard and very widespread interpretation across denominational lines.  So how about we just address the question instead of going off on other rabbit trails?

So, how does one know that the vine includes those outside of a relationship with God, when he's talking to his disciples (hence the belief among many that those on the vine represent those who follow Christ), not a mix of believers and non?  Where's the proof?  (And pointing to Judas to prove that the disciples didn't all include people ultimately faithful is really no proof; it's like using a word in its own definition, like "faith means to have faith in something".)
The context reveals that those on the vine, referred to as "in me (Christ)" are just that, in Christ.

Non-believers are NEVER referred to or treated as IN CHRIST. 

Secondly, the Bible at no place and at no time refers to faith or belief in Christ as partial or non-saving faith for HUMANS. 

The only reference to volitional beings believing and not being saved are DEMONS and the DEMONS are not given the Gospel promise of "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved".

But what you are asking is the duty of the one claiming the BRANCHES did not grow from the vine to prove it otherwise.  The most natural and contextual reading and understanding of this lesson is that the fruitbearing and non fruitbearing branches all were born out of the vine from sprouts to branches.  There is NOTHING to indicate otherwise.

So the refutation that is incumbent is for one to demonstrate how theologically compatible it is for a branch to grow from Christ but NOT REALLY be His and how to be DESCRIBED as being "In Christ" happens while being one that does NOT believe because that description "In Christ" is reserved for those belonging to Christ.
A basic lesson in botany and biology will teach you that the branches and the vine are one.  To be a branch is to be one with the vine.  This is elementary.
My point precisely.
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« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2007, 07:07:53 AM »

Then either I'm not understanding your initial objection to my question, or you didn't understand my question.  I don't know, what do you think?
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"Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.  He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it."
– 1st Thess. 5:23-24 ESV

"God’s will to save is as wide as His will to create."
– Walter Lock
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« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2007, 07:07:53 AM »

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« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2007, 03:29:35 PM »

So, I guess that some of the problem in all of this is how to resolve the tension between what Jesus said in Jn. 15:1-8 and His statement in 6:38-40...

Quote
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
[/size]


I take the point in 15:1-8 to be "ABIDE IN ME".  "Abide" means a whole lot more than (and maybe other than) "be sure you know exactly how to parse every verb of every thing I have said."

I don't think a Calvinist would have trouble understanding that if he/she doesn't "dwell fully and live fully" IN Jesus, then he/she will not have the sap to produce the fruit that Christ wants to have us bear.


V
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« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2007, 09:20:29 PM »

On the one hand, who says tension must always be resolved? 

On the other, looking at the text I still don't see how one would conclude that the vine/branches illustration is about people who were never in Christ.  Take a gander again...

"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine[/b]. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.


And who is the "you" to whom he was speaking?  The apostles.  Disciples.  Not unbelievers.  People try to push them into this passage, but they simple aren't there, no more than Moroni was in the passage about "other sheep".
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"Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.  He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it."
– 1st Thess. 5:23-24 ESV

"God’s will to save is as wide as His will to create."
– Walter Lock
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