You know, though, that it's entirely a false claim that people who do not buy OSAS live in nothing but FUD.  On the contrary, it causes one to approach his/her faith with reverence and awe that even though there is the possibility of falling away, God is willing, able, and ready to keep us from it if we keep trusting Him.

Can you find people that live in constant FUD?  Sure.  But I know people who are Calvinists that live in FUD because people keep barking at them that if they are still weak, or still struggle, or if they leave the faith for a while they were never really believers after all. 

I agree, that was a good post, jmg. I find it very interesting how many Calvinists will state categorically that you never really know about anybody's salvation but your own, but then they'll come from a funeral of someone they know who never cussed or missed church and talk about how there's one person you can be sure is in heaven, and the basis of their assurance is the behavior (good works) of the departed.

So if your behavior is how I know you are saved, what is it that makes me know that I'm saved? Same about being lost. I've heard it said that we judge others by their actions and we judge ourselves by our intentions.

I find this thread amusing, you all.  This debate has gone on for centuries.  You can spend the rest of your life reading both sides of this thing.  And you will not resolve it here as rabid as you may feel about it.

The  interpretation of this passage historically has simply been two-fold, depending on how you view and read scripture.  One who reads scripture as man-centered will read this, as any other passage in the way you have presented it in the OP.  However, one who reads scripture as God-centered will read it in another way.  And these two interpretations are quite distinctive, and really which one one adapts depends on how they view all scripture as a whole.

In viewing it as God-centered, (and trying to just summarize what has been argued for many years), the entire allegory of the vine and branches is to establish that a true believer is an abiding believer in Him and furthermore that He is the source of all of our spiritual power, vitalilty and life, not in any way something generated in ourselves.

By logic then, the reference in verse 2 to "in Me" does not and can not refer to those who abide in Him, it references the allegory he has created, to distinguish the true and false believer in Him.

Furthermore, usually (as you have failed to do in your opening post) those who take the man-centered view never discuss verse 4, where Christ almost as an aside, as if he momentarily steps out of the allegory and turns to his disciples, states "you are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you"....in other words, He is telling them they have already been cleansed with the pruning of His word (as described in verse 2), as all true believers are.  There is no such thing as a true disciple who is not cleansed by the Word.

In verse 5, Christ gives no indication that there is a major exception to this verse, i.e., where there are those who abide in Him and yet do not bear fruit.  This reinforces the distinction inherent in the entire passage or allegory.  And verse 5 of course, establishes the basis of the allegory, that being where our power to obey and bear fruit comes from: "for apart from Me you can do nothing"

And in verse 8 (as throughout all scripture), disciples are only defined as those who bear much fruit...."and so prove to be My disciples"....there is no other way to discuss proof of a disciple.  That is a disciple.

And, finally, in verse 11, Jesus states that he gave this allegory to not cause sorrow to His disciples, but to give them joy.  The centrality of the Father and Son in bringing out the fruitfulness of the Vine brings joy.....interpreting these words in a man-centered way, so as to refer to true disciples losing their salvation, does not.

This allegory's focus upon Christ as the source of all spiritual life picks up the same theme found in John 6(the Bread of Life).  With the God-centered interpretive approach to this allegory, it is completely backwards to take a passage that presents the work of the Father in glorifying Himself in bringing forth fruit in Christ's people and construe it into a passage teaching the opposite, that is, the Father's failure to bring forth fruit and hence lose one-time true believers.
 
As for me, I will always opt for the God-centered approach to scripture, our faith, and our salvation.

I don't think that the "resolution of tensions" presented to us by God is our job--or necessary.

Neither does Jesus warn about people being "cut off" who were never in Him to begin with.

Neither does it appear to me that Jesus is in this teaching about the loss of salvation--though He is warning about being "unfruitful".  Notice;


If we abide in Christ then we will pray effectively and we'll "bear much fruit", thus bringing glory to the Father--which is a demonstration of our discipleship.

Jesus uses pruned off unfruitful branches as a simile to illustrate "unfruitfulness" in Believers.  It seems to me that many are equating "unfruitfulness" with "unsaved".  I don't think that is what Jesus is saying.  Are we to consider ourselves "unsaved" when we find ourselves in times of desert emptiness?

I think Jesus is driving home the reality that all of our fruitfullness is all to do about "abiding in Him", drawing sustenance from Him, and that is our true source of Joy and happiness and Hope--and in doing that we will be effective in life and thus be glorious reflections of the Glory of God.

It goes without saying (should, but never underestimate the influence of our flesh) that knowing who we are IN Christ informs us of WHAT we are IN Christ.  Knowing that I am IN Christ informs me that God sees me IN Christ--who is His Beloved.  That means that I also am His Beloved.  1st John 3:1-2 is the indicative of who we are; 3:3-10 is the imperative based upon who we are. 

Interesting, that about Maroni....

V

Nicely put, Volkmar, and kindly said.

The problem is you didn't provide any exegesis, just some posturing.  My point was made and it is clear you understood it.  Now back to the discussion of the text.

Well this is how I see it.

I am saved and my salvation is secure because Jesus said so. I believe God.

FTL