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Author Topic: Abiding in Christ: The Real Meaning Confronts an Error of Calvinism John 15:1-8  (Read 5507 times)
Johnb
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« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2007, 06:37:08 PM »
Tommy
are you attempting to debunk the concept of the impossibility of apostasy?  Later Johnb
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Johnb
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« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2007, 06:46:05 PM »
If that is what you are trying to show this might be a better text.
2Pet2: 20-22
20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

 21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

 22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
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« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2007, 06:46:05 PM »
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Robert Pate
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« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2007, 09:44:53 PM »
Harold

This is how I see it.  God in the person of Jesus Christ has come into the world to do those things that I am not capable of doing for myself.  By his sinless life he has offered everything to the law that is required, he took me out from under the law because the law condemns me.  In his death on the cross he embraced my old Adam and put him to death.  I am now a new creation in Christ. The old has passed away and the new has arrived.

In Jesus Christ I have been Justified, sanctified and redeemned.  All that Christ is and all that he has done is mine by faith alone.  It is God's great gift to humanity.  I am presently awaiting either the return of Christ, or my death at which time I will realize all that he has done for me, which will result in my glorification 
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TommyTsunami
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« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2007, 11:51:54 AM »
Quote from: Johnb on December 15, 2007, 06:37:08 PM
Tommy
are you attempting to debunk the concept of the impossibility of apostasy?  Later Johnb
No, I am not debunking the concept of apostasy.  I am debunking the erring Calvinist doctrine of Perseverance which IN PART uses this text.
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Johnb
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« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2007, 12:04:01 PM »
Tommy
I don't think we are in disagreement here.  What you are calling (and the Calvinist also identify it as perseverance)  is also known as the impossibility of apostasy,  In other words once one is a Christian they can not fall from grace they will persevere and if they do fall away they were not Christians to began with.  I also believe that is not the case.  However, I don't think we have many Calvinist on this board.  But I could be wrong.  Later johnb 
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TommyTsunami
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« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2007, 02:03:24 PM »
Quote from: Johnb on December 16, 2007, 12:04:01 PM
Tommy
I don't think we are in disagreement here.  What you are calling (and the Calvinist also identify it as perseverance)  is also known as the impossibility of apostasy,  In other words once one is a Christian they can not fall from grace they will persevere and if they do fall away they were not Christians to began with.  I also believe that is not the case.  However, I don't think we have many Calvinist on this board.  But I could be wrong.  Later johnb 
I concur. 

As for the amount of Calvinist here, I don't know myself.  However, it may be many hold to some or all of the errors of Calvinism and don't know they are in effect a Calvinist or disposed to such theological sentiments and such pointed threads and discussions might prompt some illumination to those unaware.
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« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2007, 02:03:24 PM »
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Volkmar
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« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2007, 05:29:14 PM »
Quote from: TommyTsunami on December 16, 2007, 02:03:24 PM
Quote from: Johnb on December 16, 2007, 12:04:01 PM
Tommy
I don't think we are in disagreement here.  What you are calling (and the Calvinist also identify it as perseverance)  is also known as the impossibility of apostasy,  In other words once one is a Christian they can not fall from grace they will persevere and if they do fall away they were not Christians to began with.  I also believe that is not the case.  However, I don't think we have many Calvinist on this board.  But I could be wrong.  Later johnb 
I concur. 

As for the amount of Calvinist here, I don't know myself.  However, it may be many hold to some or all of the errors of Calvinism and don't know they are in effect a Calvinist or disposed to such theological sentiments and such pointed threads and discussions might prompt some illumination to those unaware.


Are you intending to enlighten us about ALL the errors of Calvinism...or just make a few pokes here and there?

V
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"There can be only two basic loves; the love of God unto the forgetfulness of self, or, the love of self unto the forgetfulness and denial of God." ---Augustine

"If God was interested in special buildings and professional mediators then the sacrifice of Christ and the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem seems oddly unwarranted."
TommyTsunami
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« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2007, 06:17:47 PM »
Quote from: Volkmar on December 16, 2007, 05:29:14 PM
Quote from: TommyTsunami on December 16, 2007, 02:03:24 PM
Quote from: Johnb on December 16, 2007, 12:04:01 PM
Tommy
I don't think we are in disagreement here.  What you are calling (and the Calvinist also identify it as perseverance)  is also known as the impossibility of apostasy,  In other words once one is a Christian they can not fall from grace they will persevere and if they do fall away they were not Christians to began with.  I also believe that is not the case.  However, I don't think we have many Calvinist on this board.  But I could be wrong.  Later johnb 
I concur. 

As for the amount of Calvinist here, I don't know myself.  However, it may be many hold to some or all of the errors of Calvinism and don't know they are in effect a Calvinist or disposed to such theological sentiments and such pointed threads and discussions might prompt some illumination to those unaware.


Are you intending to enlighten us about ALL the errors of Calvinism...or just make a few pokes here and there?

V
Feel free to read the OP and offer your hermeneutically and exegetically based refutation.  IF not well we can move on from this error of Calvinism being demonstrated (Perseverance) to the rest of the TULIP. 
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da525382
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« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2007, 06:29:24 PM »
Quote from: Volkmar on December 16, 2007, 05:29:14 PM
Quote from: TommyTsunami on December 16, 2007, 02:03:24 PM
Quote from: Johnb on December 16, 2007, 12:04:01 PM
Tommy
I don't think we are in disagreement here.  What you are calling (and the Calvinist also identify it as perseverance)  is also known as the impossibility of apostasy,  In other words once one is a Christian they can not fall from grace they will persevere and if they do fall away they were not Christians to began with.  I also believe that is not the case.  However, I don't think we have many Calvinist on this board.  But I could be wrong.  Later johnb 
I concur. 

As for the amount of Calvinist here, I don't know myself.  However, it may be many hold to some or all of the errors of Calvinism and don't know they are in effect a Calvinist or disposed to such theological sentiments and such pointed threads and discussions might prompt some illumination to those unaware.


Are you intending to enlighten us about ALL the errors of Calvinism...or just make a few pokes here and there?

V

Go ahead, Tom, see if he'll accept your response to his OP.....chances are it will simply not pass his own crafted "hermeneutically and exegetically" based standard.  Then he'll just not respond, and tell everyone to move on (been there, done that).  Good luck.
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TommyTsunami
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« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2007, 06:36:31 PM »
Quote from: da525382 on December 16, 2007, 06:29:24 PM
Quote from: Volkmar on December 16, 2007, 05:29:14 PM
Quote from: TommyTsunami on December 16, 2007, 02:03:24 PM
Quote from: Johnb on December 16, 2007, 12:04:01 PM
Tommy
I don't think we are in disagreement here.  What you are calling (and the Calvinist also identify it as perseverance)  is also known as the impossibility of apostasy,  In other words once one is a Christian they can not fall from grace they will persevere and if they do fall away they were not Christians to began with.  I also believe that is not the case.  However, I don't think we have many Calvinist on this board.  But I could be wrong.  Later johnb 
I concur. 

As for the amount of Calvinist here, I don't know myself.  However, it may be many hold to some or all of the errors of Calvinism and don't know they are in effect a Calvinist or disposed to such theological sentiments and such pointed threads and discussions might prompt some illumination to those unaware.


Are you intending to enlighten us about ALL the errors of Calvinism...or just make a few pokes here and there?

V

Go ahead, Tom, see if he'll accept your response to his OP.....chances are it will simply not pass his own crafted "hermeneutically and exegetically" based standard.  Then he'll just not respond, and tell everyone to move on (been there, done that).  Good luck.
I won't hold my breath.  Right now all I see is a bunch of complaining.  But maybe that passes as legitimate debate for some people.
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« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2007, 06:36:31 PM »
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Volkmar
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« Reply #40 on: December 16, 2007, 07:03:25 PM »
Quote from: TommyTsunami on December 16, 2007, 06:17:47 PM
Quote from: Volkmar on December 16, 2007, 05:29:14 PM
Quote from: TommyTsunami on December 16, 2007, 02:03:24 PM
Quote from: Johnb on December 16, 2007, 12:04:01 PM
Tommy
I don't think we are in disagreement here.  What you are calling (and the Calvinist also identify it as perseverance)  is also known as the impossibility of apostasy,  In other words once one is a Christian they can not fall from grace they will persevere and if they do fall away they were not Christians to began with.  I also believe that is not the case.  However, I don't think we have many Calvinist on this board.  But I could be wrong.  Later johnb 
I concur. 

As for the amount of Calvinist here, I don't know myself.  However, it may be many hold to some or all of the errors of Calvinism and don't know they are in effect a Calvinist or disposed to such theological sentiments and such pointed threads and discussions might prompt some illumination to those unaware.


Are you intending to enlighten us about ALL the errors of Calvinism...or just make a few pokes here and there?

V
Feel free to read the OP and offer your hermeneutically and exegetically based refutation.  IF not well we can move on from this error of Calvinism being demonstrated (Perseverance) to the rest of the TULIP. 

I offered an exegesis in this post --> my understanding of the cited text.  Perhaps you didn't read it?

I don't intend to go very far into the "decoder ring" exercise thing...it tends to be a waste of time, and, in the end, misses the point of the narrative.

Would you recount for us what you understand "P" to say?  Thank you beforehand.


V
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"Nothing is more repugnant to reasonable people than Grace." ---Charles Wesley

"There can be only two basic loves; the love of God unto the forgetfulness of self, or, the love of self unto the forgetfulness and denial of God." ---Augustine

"If God was interested in special buildings and professional mediators then the sacrifice of Christ and the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem seems oddly unwarranted."
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« Reply #41 on: December 16, 2007, 07:30:50 PM »
Is there a teaching, that man fully understands.  Man has seen movies, heard stories, listened to speakers. Our minds hold that info, then we read scripture, and our views are tainted.  Some for good some not.
 
 We all think we are correct in what we believe.  Most often the older we get the more Truth we know and the less dogmattic we are.

Any one posting here have the Truth?  Always had the Truth? Never had your mind/heart changed?

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da525382
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« Reply #42 on: December 16, 2007, 08:17:11 PM »
Quote from: Eagle on December 16, 2007, 07:30:50 PM
Is there a teaching, that man fully understands.  Man has seen movies, heard stories, listened to speakers. Our minds hold that info, then we read scripture, and our views are tainted.  Some for good some not.
 
 We all think we are correct in what we believe.  Most often the older we get the more Truth we know and the less dogmattic we are.

Any one posting here have the Truth?  Always had the Truth? Never had your mind/heart changed?



Nicely put.
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« Reply #42 on: December 16, 2007, 08:17:11 PM »
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da525382
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« Reply #43 on: December 16, 2007, 08:21:03 PM »
Quote from: TommyTsunami on December 16, 2007, 06:36:31 PM
Quote from: da525382 on December 16, 2007, 06:29:24 PM
Quote from: Volkmar on December 16, 2007, 05:29:14 PM
Quote from: TommyTsunami on December 16, 2007, 02:03:24 PM
Quote from: Johnb on December 16, 2007, 12:04:01 PM
Tommy
I don't think we are in disagreement here.  What you are calling (and the Calvinist also identify it as perseverance)  is also known as the impossibility of apostasy,  In other words once one is a Christian they can not fall from grace they will persevere and if they do fall away they were not Christians to began with.  I also believe that is not the case.  However, I don't think we have many Calvinist on this board.  But I could be wrong.  Later johnb 
I concur. 

As for the amount of Calvinist here, I don't know myself.  However, it may be many hold to some or all of the errors of Calvinism and don't know they are in effect a Calvinist or disposed to such theological sentiments and such pointed threads and discussions might prompt some illumination to those unaware.


Are you intending to enlighten us about ALL the errors of Calvinism...or just make a few pokes here and there?

V

Go ahead, Tom, see if he'll accept your response to his OP.....chances are it will simply not pass his own crafted "hermeneutically and exegetically" based standard.  Then he'll just not respond, and tell everyone to move on (been there, done that).  Good luck.
I won't hold my breath.  Right now all I see is a bunch of complaining.  But maybe that passes as legitimate debate for some people.

You have a perverse view of legitimate debate.
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GTM
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« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2008, 09:56:51 AM »
Since God choses us and we don't chose Him, why would He chose us  if He saw that we would turn away from Him? Maybe he doesn't see the future.
 
GTM
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Abiding in Christ: The Real Meaning Confronts an Error of Calvinism John 15:1-8 - Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 Go Up Print 
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