Narrowway's topic on obedience has caused me to wonder if what he is saying about obedience is indeed the calvanist teaching or has he taken it to an extreme.  I believe his topic is under general discussion. Anyway, I was just curious about this and didn't want to hijack his thread so I've started my own.

Thanks

Lisa P

Is the views expressed by narrowway on the thread on obedience in general discussion, the views expressed by calvanist or is he being extreme? 

Terrence,  The topic is titled"God's simple covenant with mankind-OBEY" in General discussion.

I have no problem with saying God wants our obedience but to say he only wants it and nothing else and still, the main problem with this theology is this answer and again I'd ask you , is this what you all believe or is he being extreme:

I would not dare tell an unrepentant sinner that Jesus died for them.  I don't own salvation, and therefore I have no idea as to whether Christ died for them, or even me, for that matter.  Here's the reality of the matter: if the Lord Jesus Christ did not die on that Cross for me, for MY sins, then I'm absolutely DEFINITELY going to Hell, and there's not a thing I can do about it.  A soul purchased by the blood of Christ will persevere to the end.  But the reprobate will remain in sin.  I would not be so arrogant as to suggest that I KNOW Christ died for me.  I have a hope that perhaps He did, and strive daily against my sin in the hopes that I may be found in His redeeming work.  But again, no one knows.


That is on that same thread, rply #52 if you'd like to see it in its context.  Anyway, thanks again for helping me to understand this theology. 

Serenity432001

I would not dare tell an unrepentant sinner that Jesus died for them.

I agree with this. I know this may be a bit hard for you to hear, but it is only a modern way of witnessing to hear the phrase when witnessing, "Jesus died for you." None of the disciples used it, and neither did most of Christianity use it, until about 100 years ago (when alter calls became popular). Now, I don't say all this to sound harsh, but because it is true. When I witness (and I thank God for keeping me involved in evangelism), I tell people to "Repent and Believe the gospel." I take them through the law of God so that they might see their need for a Savior, and I assure them that if they repent and believe, they WILL be saved. What I do not tell them is, "come to Jesus because he died for you."

I have no idea as to whether Christ died for them, or even me, for that matter. 

I'm not sure why the person said "I don't know whether Christ died for me," but as for myself, I know that he died for me. I don't come from a "bad" background or hard life. I come from being a "goodie tooshoes," and not knowing that I was an enemy of God. God saved me in 2003 just by allowing me to hear the gospel online one night. Prior to hearing that message, i.e., that I wasn't as good as I or everyone else thought I was, but was wicked and evil in the sight of a Holy God - prior to actually hearing that, I thought I was already a Christian. I was everything the Bible said, but didn't know it. I was blind, God hating, alienated from God, depraved in my mind, unable to understand spiritual truth, etc., etc. After I heard that message - Oh that glorious message - in and instant I was born again. I still remember what I said that night, namely, "oh...this is what it means to be a Christian," and I FINALLY understood why Christ died. Even though I would say, "Christ died for sinners," I had no idea what that meant before I heard the gospel. Anyway, about 2 years after conversation, God would again unconditionally bless me by growing me in the knowledge of God. He opened my eyes to theology and used reformed theology as a means to help me grow more in his graces. I do NOT say this to boast (except for in the Lord), but I was not looking for God, and like the Apostle Paul, God came to me and made me his willing slave. I am so extremely happy about that, and so I said all of that just to say that "I KNOW CHRIST DIED FOR ME!"

if the Lord Jesus Christ did not die on that Cross for me, for MY sins, then I'm absolutely DEFINITELY going to Hell, and there's not a thing I can do about it. 

Its hard to talk about such things via written words, primarily because you cannot see my face or emotions when talking about such matters. Nevertheless - and I say this with trembling - if Christ did not die for a sinner, they will indeed go to hell, and they will indeed deserve it. God isn't obligated to save anyone, but because he chose to save some, many will be saved because of Christ' sacrifice. Yet again, the sacrifice was not designed for all people individually, but all people within a particular context, namely God's elect. I have loved ones who are not saved, and I am always praying that God may be pleased to save them.

A soul purchased by the blood of Christ will persevere to the end.  But the reprobate will remain in sin.

This is also true. Those purchased have been justified and therefore will be glorified. The reprobate will remain in his sin because it is his desire to do so. God, in a sense, abandons him to himself. Indeed, that is the worst thing a sinner could have happen to him in this life.


I would not be so arrogant as to suggest that I KNOW Christ died for me.  I have a hope that perhaps He did, and strive daily against my sin in the hopes that I may be found in His redeeming work.  But again, no one knows.

There are two sure ways you can know if Christ died for you or not. You could 1.), Get a really really really long ladder, climb up to Heaven and take a peek into the Lamb's book of life to see if your name is in it. Or, you could 2.) repent and believe the gospel. Assurance is God's gracious gift to the believer and you may have it if you trust in the Lord, and continue to trust in him.
 
Anyway, thanks again for helping me to understand this theology. 

From reading what I have written here in these replies, I do not believe I have helped in any real sense of the word. You have presuppositions (as do all people) that have already caused you to assume me wrong, and therefore I have only served as a means to reassure you that Calvinism is wrong and perhaps wicked. It is for that reason I would simply ask you to study the doctrines of grace for yourself. When I heard these doctrines the first time, I believed the scriptures as you do. However, I was still willing to listen and study it through the lens of scripture. My reasoning at the time was simply this: "Lord, why is it that all the people I liked, the Spurgeons and Whitefield and John Piper, etc., all believed this crazy stuff!?" And with that and in much humility, I sought to study the doctrines for myself. Months later when I began to actually believe it, I purposely sought arguments from the other side (Arminians) to see why the Calvinist had it wrong. Needless to say, I haven't found one. I said that to say, don't be afraid to be a Berean. Be fair. Examine both schools of thought in light of scripture. You may not have the desire to do so now, and that is fine. But, if you do have the desire to know, I would ask that you trust the Lord by actively seek to know. I have some sermons on the five points of Calvinism I could give you, if you like.

You're welcome! Thank you as well for your grace and candor in speech!

Blessings in the lamb!

Nicely put, GTM.

You can teach to obey all you want, but without the work of the Holy Spirit, it is impossible to obey what Jesus taught in a way that is acceptable to God.

Even the demons know that Jesus is, they may even try and obey from time to time, but their obedience will not put them back in God's graces unless God provides the means.