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Author Topic: Another question for calvinist  (Read 4775 times)
Jimmy
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« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2008, 08:45:30 AM »

On this subject:

   After years of following the holiness tradition, I discovered that obedience wasn't following the law or a set of rules but to believe the Gospel.

  The Greek word metaneo or metanoia means repent or more accurately to change ones mind. John the Baptists came and said repent and believe the Gospel. In other words he was saying change your mind about God and believe the good news. The new Testament command isn't obedience to the law. But to Grace.

GTM

What is obedience to grace?  Jesus said to "teach them to observe (or obey) all that I have commanded" 

You can teach to obey all you want, but without the work of the Holy Spirit, it is impossible to obey what Jesus taught in a way that is acceptable to God.

Even the demons know that Jesus is, they may even try and obey from time to time, but their obedience will not put them back in God's graces unless God provides the means.


What does any of that have to do with the question that I asked?  Are you suggesting that we should not baptize and teach any to obey all that Jesus has commanded?
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GTM
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« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2008, 08:58:01 AM »

Jimmy,

   What does any of that have to do with the question that I asked?  Are you suggesting that we should not baptize and teach any to obey all that Jesus has commanded?

We should absolutely Baptize and seek to live holy lives. But that isn't a prerequisites for eternity.

GTM
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« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2008, 08:58:01 AM »

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Tantor
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« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2008, 09:05:35 AM »

I believe that the new covenant baptism is by the Holy Spirit.. just as John the Baptist foretold (baptism by fire).  I believe that water baptism is a hold over from Jewish tradition and was mistakenly continued by Judiazers when they baptized Gentiles.  Water baptism was still necessary during Jesus' life but was rendered moot after his death, burial and resurrection because that is when the Holy Spirit was given.

I also believe obedience is subjective... we are to obey the leadings of the Holy Spirit and search the scriptures to authenticate that leading.  I believe that it is futile to try and obey through the exertion of ones own will.. Obedience comes from the yielding of ones desires to that of the Holy Spirit.

I know that in my life, any time I tried to obey out of my own desires, it has always ended in personal disaster.  When I finally yielded myself to the Holy Spirit and allowed him to work in me, I found out that my desires were not consistent with correction of my sins.  My true root of my problems were never really evident to me, I was just struggling with symptoms and not the disease.


« Last Edit: August 05, 2008, 09:22:19 AM by Tantor » Logged
Jimmy
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« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2008, 09:53:17 AM »

I believe that the new covenant baptism is by the Holy Spirit.. just as John the Baptist foretold (baptism by fire).  I believe that water baptism is a hold over from Jewish tradition and was mistakenly continued by Judiazers when they baptized Gentiles.  Water baptism was still necessary during Jesus' life but was rendered moot after his death, burial and resurrection because that is when the Holy Spirit was given.

I also believe obedience is subjective... we are to obey the leadings of the Holy Spirit and search the scriptures to authenticate that leading.  I believe that it is futile to try and obey through the exertion of ones own will.. Obedience comes from the yielding of ones desires to that of the Holy Spirit.

I know that in my life, any time I tried to obey out of my own desires, it has always ended in personal disaster.  When I finally yielded myself to the Holy Spirit and allowed him to work in me, I found out that my desires were not consistent with correction of my sins.  My true root of my problems were never really evident to me, I was just struggling with symptoms and not the disease.

Do you think Peter was a Judaizer?  I don't think so.  I think that we are baptized in the Holy Spirit when we are baptized in water.  That is the most natural reading and understanding of the NT teachings.  The commands to be baptized and the descriptions of what occurs when one is baptized speaks fairly plainly, I believe, that water baptism was the standard of the day.  That and the fact that there is no indication in any of the letters of Paul, Peter, John, etc. that water baptism was "rendered moot".
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GTM
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« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2008, 10:10:25 AM »

Jimmy,

  Just for clarity of understanding. Do you believe that you have to be Baptized in water to be saved?

GTM
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« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2008, 10:17:38 AM »

I believe that the new covenant baptism is by the Holy Spirit.. just as John the Baptist foretold (baptism by fire).  I believe that water baptism is a hold over from Jewish tradition and was mistakenly continued by Judiazers when they baptized Gentiles.  Water baptism was still necessary during Jesus' life but was rendered moot after his death, burial and resurrection because that is when the Holy Spirit was given.

I also believe obedience is subjective... we are to obey the leadings of the Holy Spirit and search the scriptures to authenticate that leading.  I believe that it is futile to try and obey through the exertion of ones own will.. Obedience comes from the yielding of ones desires to that of the Holy Spirit.

I know that in my life, any time I tried to obey out of my own desires, it has always ended in personal disaster.  When I finally yielded myself to the Holy Spirit and allowed him to work in me, I found out that my desires were not consistent with correction of my sins.  My true root of my problems were never really evident to me, I was just struggling with symptoms and not the disease.

Do you think Peter was a Judaizer?  I don't think so.  I think that we are baptized in the Holy Spirit when we are baptized in water.  That is the most natural reading and understanding of the NT teachings.  The commands to be baptized and the descriptions of what occurs when one is baptized speaks fairly plainly, I believe, that water baptism was the standard of the day.  That and the fact that there is no indication in any of the letters of Paul, Peter, John, etc. that water baptism was "rendered moot".

I don't believe you understand the background of the Gospels very well and the tension between Jews and Gentiles and the need of the apostles to address the Jewish concerns due to their misunderstanding of God's promises to them.  The Gospels contain an undue amount of writings addressing the Jewish concerns, yet the Gospel is uniform.  There is one poster on this board that actually claims that there are two Gospels, which I disagree with.

John the Baptist plainly stated that his baptism was temporary and a baptism by fire was in the near future... To say your reading is 'natural' is short sighted.  Reading scriptures without the understanding of the culture and context of the times is bound to end in failure.

When I look at the Gospels, I see a lot of disagreement between many of the apostles as to the doctrine and formation of the new Christian grass roots movement.  I think their style of disagreement is a model that Christians should follow for posterity as how to disagree in a Godly manner.

Jesus' message was a simple one... a very simple one.. it doesn't involve rites and rituals anymore as was required in the Old Testament.  Post Jesus DBR we are now instilled with the Holy Spirit and have been given access to God himself.  

It could be argued that water baptism might still be required for a Jew that has subjected themselves to the Old Covenant but that is as far as I will go.
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« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2008, 10:17:38 AM »

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Jimmy
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« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2008, 12:38:30 PM »

Jimmy,

  Just for clarity of understanding. Do you believe that you have to be Baptized in water to be saved?

GTM

I believe that God can save whomever he wishes to save.  I believe that he has told us what we must do to be saved.  So a yes-no answer to your question doesn't clarify anything.  But just so you don't think that I am refusing to answer your question, I believe that I must do as I have been told in the Bible, which among other things is to hear and believe.  I must confess Jesus before men.  I must repent and be baptized.  I must strive do the will of God.  In that sense I believe that I must be baptized in water to be saved.  But that does not mean that God can't or won't save some who have not been baptized in water.

If I have anticipated the intent of your question, then I would give you one back.  Or perhaps that is several.  Do you believe that you have to hear the gospel to be saved?  Do you believe that you must repent of your sinful ways to be saved.  Do you believe that you must confess Jesus before men to be saved?  Do you believe that you must do the will of God to be saved?
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Jimmy
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« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2008, 12:44:33 PM »

I believe that the new covenant baptism is by the Holy Spirit.. just as John the Baptist foretold (baptism by fire).  I believe that water baptism is a hold over from Jewish tradition and was mistakenly continued by Judiazers when they baptized Gentiles.  Water baptism was still necessary during Jesus' life but was rendered moot after his death, burial and resurrection because that is when the Holy Spirit was given.

I also believe obedience is subjective... we are to obey the leadings of the Holy Spirit and search the scriptures to authenticate that leading.  I believe that it is futile to try and obey through the exertion of ones own will.. Obedience comes from the yielding of ones desires to that of the Holy Spirit.

I know that in my life, any time I tried to obey out of my own desires, it has always ended in personal disaster.  When I finally yielded myself to the Holy Spirit and allowed him to work in me, I found out that my desires were not consistent with correction of my sins.  My true root of my problems were never really evident to me, I was just struggling with symptoms and not the disease.

Do you think Peter was a Judaizer?  I don't think so.  I think that we are baptized in the Holy Spirit when we are baptized in water.  That is the most natural reading and understanding of the NT teachings.  The commands to be baptized and the descriptions of what occurs when one is baptized speaks fairly plainly, I believe, that water baptism was the standard of the day.  That and the fact that there is no indication in any of the letters of Paul, Peter, John, etc. that water baptism was "rendered moot".

I don't believe you understand the background of the Gospels very well and the tension between Jews and Gentiles and the need of the apostles to address the Jewish concerns due to their misunderstanding of God's promises to them.  The Gospels contain an undue amount of writings addressing the Jewish concerns, yet the Gospel is uniform.  There is one poster on this board that actually claims that there are two Gospels, which I disagree with.

John the Baptist plainly stated that his baptism was temporary and a baptism by fire was in the near future... To say your reading is 'natural' is short sighted.  Reading scriptures without the understanding of the culture and context of the times is bound to end in failure.

When I look at the Gospels, I see a lot of disagreement between many of the apostles as to the doctrine and formation of the new Christian grass roots movement.  I think their style of disagreement is a model that Christians should follow for posterity as how to disagree in a Godly manner.

Jesus' message was a simple one... a very simple one.. it doesn't involve rites and rituals anymore as was required in the Old Testament.  Post Jesus DBR we are now instilled with the Holy Spirit and have been given access to God himself.  

It could be argued that water baptism might still be required for a Jew that has subjected themselves to the Old Covenant but that is as far as I will go.

As near as I can tell you invent and rework context and culture until it gives you what you want.  I am not at all impressed by what you think you know that you think I don't.

But then from most of your posts here, I think a lot of your positions on scripture are just plain weird.  I really don't pay all that much attention to what you have to say.  About the same as I might give to a Mormon or a JW.  It sounds too much like it is just made up as you go along.

No offense intended, just pretty how I feel about what you say.
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« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2008, 12:49:58 PM »

The problem you have is you take a roman catholic created bible and accept it as the only infallible source.
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Jimmy
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« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2008, 12:51:08 PM »

The problem you have is you take a roman catholic created bible and accept it as the only infallible source.


The problem you have is you take whatever you want and accept it as an infallible source.  And for what it is worth the Roman Catholics perfected that technique, so it is ironic that you would find fault with me in a Roman Catholic reference.
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« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2008, 12:51:08 PM »

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GTM
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« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2008, 12:58:29 PM »

Jimmy,

  I believe that God can save whomever he wishes to save.  I believe that he has told us what we must do to be saved.  So a yes-no answer to your question doesn't clarify anything.  But just so you don't think that I am refusing to answer your question, I believe that I must do as I have been told in the Bible, which among other things is to hear and believe.  I must confess Jesus before men.  I must repent and be baptized.

I can respect that answer. I have always believed that we need to live out what we believe in our heart.

God Bless and Keep seeking the King

GTM
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« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2008, 01:01:56 PM »

The problem you have is you take a roman catholic created bible and accept it as the only infallible source.


The problem you have is you take whatever you want and accept it as an infallible source.  And for what it is worth the Roman Catholics perfected that technique, so it is ironic that you would find fault with me in a Roman Catholic reference.

No.. you, like the Roman Catholics are so caught up in 'what you can do', i.e. effort of man, sacred rites, etc. in order to justify your religion.  When the simple fact is Christianity is a faith, not a religion.  No rite of baptism, no Eucharist, etc.. is going to save you... nor is it required.  The faith of the New Testament is not one of sight.

It's just me and the Holy Spirit, testifying to the work of Jesus... I don't need to do anything else... nothing, nada.. zip.

I don't need to build churches, don't need to pay some pastor's salary.  All I need to do is fellowship with other Christians regularly, spread the Gospel as much as possible, love my neighbor as myself and love God with all my heart.

Pretty simple isn't it?  If it was more important that that, wouldn't Jesus himself have taken the time to write it down himself?





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GTM
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« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2008, 03:26:18 PM »

Sometimes we need to remind ourselves that we are Ambassadors of the most high. I know we need to be right but Jesus has called us to love one another.

God Bless

GTM
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« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2008, 03:26:18 PM »

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Harold
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« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2008, 03:43:12 PM »

1Co 15:2  In addition, you are saved by this Good News if you hold on to the doctrine I taught you, unless you believed it without thinking it over.
1Co 15:3  I passed on to you the most important points of doctrine that I had received: Christ died to take away our sins as the Scriptures predicted.

I think Paul told a lot a people they were saved by the cross. Jesus died for the sins of the world. You don't have to believe anything God says. The theology of men taking away from the Cross of Christ.

FTL
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Rom 1:17  For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith." (NIV)

I neither agree nor disagree with any thing posted on the board, I am interjecting thoughts not my beliefs, unless so stated.
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« Reply #29 on: August 06, 2008, 03:42:15 PM »

Alrighty then,

  Imagine this scene. Paul was on the road to Damascus breathing threats. All of a sudden God jumps out of the CLouds and saves Paul.

Question.

In what way was Paul seeking God?
He wasn't!


It says that he was breathing threats.

alrighty then,

Here is another question:

 The Disciples are walking along and they come to a man who was not doing so good. He was seeking gifts as a beggar. He wasn't seeking God.

Act 3:6   But Peter said, "I do not possess silver and gold, but what I do have I give to you: In the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene--walk!"

God jumped out of the clouds kinda sorta and saved this man.

Question:

What was this man doing? He wasn't seeking God God was seeking him.

GTM
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