Skala,

It is not a coincidence that 99% of Christians today firmly reject the callous, evil, and cruel Calvinist idea of God...a God that for no apparent reason creates souls predestined - from the womb - to hell and does nothing to save them. I'd rather be an atheist or a Buddhist than a Calvinist

But the Calvinist apparently doesn't understand the difference.

Angelos, you keep describing your god!

My God doesn't "do nothing to save men".  He actually regenerates dead sinners, giving them faith and repentance, reconciling them to Himself, out of grace.

Your god only "woos and pleades" for people to "accept him" while they are spiritually dead and unregenerate, but doesn't actually do anything that will guarantee that anyone accepts him.  It is your god that doesn't help sinners, not mine.

Mine foreknows, predestines, calls, justifies, glorifies. (Rom 8:30)

I have NO IDEA what your god does. Do you?

On reprobation:

From AW Pink's The Sovereignty of God:

"If then He foresaw that in creating a certain person that that person would despise and reject the Saviour, yet knowing this beforehand He, nevertheless, brought that person into existence, then it is clear He designed and ordained that that person should be eternally lost. Again; faith is God's gift, and the purpose to give it only to some, involves the purpose not to give it to others. Without faith there is no salvation--"He that believeth not shall be damned"-hence if there were some of Adam's descendants to whom He purposed not to give faith, it must be because He ordained that they should be damned."

"The great majority of [men] die in utter ignorance of the Way of Peace. Now are we not obliged to conclude that it was not God's will to communicate grace to them? Had His will been otherwise, would He not have actually communicated His grace to them? If, then, it was the will of God, in time, to refuse to them his grace, it must have been His will from all eternity, since His will is, as Himself, the same yesterday, and today and forever. Let it not be forgotten that God's providences are but the manifestations of His decrees: what God does in time is only what He purposed in eternity-His own will being the alone cause of all His acts and works. Therefore from His actually leaving some men in final impenitency and unbelief we assuredly gather it was His everlasting determination so to do; and consequently that He reprobated some from before the foundation of the world."

Is not Pharaoh the greatest example of the teaching of the Bible on the subject of Reprobation? "For this purpose I have raised you up...that I might show my power in you.."(Rom 9:17)

"For this purpose."

Surely it was God's purpose and God's doing that Pharaoh's heart would be increasingly hardened. God chose to withhold grace. He chose to not convert Pharaoh, he chose not to change his heart by grace. Surely God could have done so, because we read "The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water, He turneth it withersoever He will" (Prov. 21:1). Which direction was God pleased to turn Pharaoh's heart? The way of evil, the way of unbelief, the way of hardening, the way of rejection.

It's no surprise then that Paul emphatically declares, "Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills."

AW Pink continues..

""The LORD hath made all things for Himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil" (Prov. 16:4). That the Lord made all, perhaps every reader of this book will allow: that He made all for Himself is not so widely believed. "

It cannot be denied that this was God's plan all along:

"God never does anything without a previous design. In giving [Pharaoh] being, in preserving him through infancy and childhood, in raising him to the throne of Egypt, God had one end in view. That such was God's purpose is clear from His words to Moses before he went down to Egypt to demand of Pharaoh that Jehovah's people should be allowed to go a three days' journey into the wilderness to worship Him-"And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all these wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go" (Exo. 4:21)

"For this purpose I have raised you up.."

Yet, through all this, God remains just and righteous! What an amazing and wise God! We have Pharaoh's own testimony that God did not unjustly or arbitrarily deal with him:

Pharaoh said, "I have sinned this time: the LORD is righteous, and I and my people are wicked."

By Pharaoh's own admission, the Lord is righteous, and it is Pharaoh and his people that have sinned and are wicked.

Moses, knowing God's dealing with Pharaoh all throughout this time, also does not charge God with injustice, but declares: "Who is like unto Thee, O LORD, among the gods? Who is like Thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders!" (Exo. 15: 11).

It may be a hard doctrine, but nevertheless, the doctrine of reprobation gives God glory:

"I have raised you up that I might show my power in thee, and that my name would be declared throughout all the earth.."

I am of the conviction that God's glory is the primary thing He is concerned with, and consequently, that we should be concerned with. Everything that happens, happens because God decreed it to happen for his own glory. No other statement can be true. Will something happen that does not give God glory in His own universe? Unthinkable.

I believe the Apostle Paul further drives home the truth and importance of this doctrine when he uses Esau (in addition to Pharaoh) as a picture of the entire group of reprobate. Not only does God love Jacob and hate Esau, the individuals, but God loves His elect and hates the reprobate. Though it was one of the hardest doctrines to engage and finally embrace, I believe it is one of the most important doctrines one can adhere to. How can God's amazing, saving grace be truly realized if there is nothing to contrast it with?

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Disclaimer, so that there is no confusion:

"...the doctrine of Reprobation does not mean that God purposed to take innocent creatures, make them wicked, and then damn them. Scripture says, "God hath made man upright: but they have sought out many inventions" (Eccl. 7:29). God has not created sinful creatures in order to destroy them, for God is not to be charged with the sin of His creatures. The responsibility and criminality is man's.

God's decree of Reprobation contemplated Adam's race as fallen, sinful, corrupt, guilty. From it God purposed to save a few as the monuments of His Sovereign grace; the others He determined to destroy as the exemplification of His justice and severity. In determining to destroy these others, God did them no wrong. They had already fallen in Adam, their legal representative; they are therefore born with a sinful nature, and in their sins He leaves them. Nor can they complain. This is as they wish; they have no desire for holiness; they love darkness rather than light. Where, then, is there any injustice if God "gives them up to their own heart's lusts" (Psa. 81:12)." - AW Pink

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First we must ask those who believe that God wants and desires every single person head for head to be saved, what about the billions of people that live full lives and die without ever hearing the gospel?  What about those in the Old Testament that God purposely hid himself from?  God only revealed himself to, and rescued Israel.  Israel alone, out of all the nations of the earth, received the prophets, promises, the law, the sacrificial system, and more. The rest of the nations were left in total darkness and ignorance, not knowing the True God.

Out of every nation of the earth in the OT, God says to Israel "You only have I known among all the nations of the earth..." (Amo 3:2)

In Due 10:14-15 the author writes:
(14)  Behold, to the LORD your God belong heaven and the heaven of heavens, the earth with all that is in it.
(15)  Yet the LORD set his heart in love on your fathers and chose their offspring after them, you above all peoples, as you are this day.

He is saying the Lord owns everything, and out of all that, God set his love upon you alone.

Furthermore, God Himself chose the time for Christ to come and die (Galatians 4:4-5), after thousands of years of history, after millions of people had already perished in total darkness and ignorance. He came in the first century B. C. and revealed the saving mystery of the gospel "which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men" (Ephesians 2:5).

The Jews before this time were given the gospel in the shadowy, prefigured forms of the Old Testament. And as with Abraham (cf. Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:1-8), anyone who believed the promises of God would be saved. But in God's providence, only the Jews were given access to these promises (cf. Deuteronomy 4:6-8). This explains why Paul said the Jews had a great advantage over the Gentiles (Romans 3:1-2). They were graciously given access to the truth of Scripture while millions of Gentiles around them were perishing, "having no hope and without God in the world" (Ephesians 2:12). "[God] declares His word to Jacob, His statutes and His judgments to Israel. He has not dealt thus with any other nation; and as for His judgments, they have not known them. Praise the Lord!" (Psalm 147:18-19

God rescued Israel from paganism and bondage, through Moses.  He came to them and said "I will be your God, and rescue you, and give you blessings".  He didn't do this to Pharaoh or Egypt.

God interupted Paul's murderous rampage and converted him on the spot, resulting in the eternal salvation of his soul.  Yet he does not do this to everyone.  He saved Paul, but not the Pharisees.

Peter and Judas both betrayed Christ.  Yet Christ restored Peter, and did not do the same for Judas.

Christ allowed Judas to be taken over by satan, but he did not allow satan to do the same to Peter when satan requested it:

Luk 22:31  "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat,
Luk 22:32  but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail.

Jesus specifically intervened and mediated for Peter as the High Priest of all of God's elect, securing Peter's faith and salvation, ensuring that Peter would never fall out of faith, yet allowed Judas to suffer his fate.

In Christ's prayer, he says, "I do not pray for the world, but for those you have given me...I will give them eternal life..it is for their sakes I sanctify myself (on the cross)". (John 17:1-2, 9, 19)

Christ spoke in parables, and the disciples asked him about it:

Mat 13:10-14
(10)  Then the disciples came and said to him, "Why do you speak to them in parables?"
(11)  And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
(12)  For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
(13)  This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
(14)  Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: "'You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive.

When the apostles tried to go to Mysia to preach the Gospel, God did not allow them (Acts 16:7).  A curious decision on God's part if He is trying to spread the gospel to all people and save all people.

Christ was thinking on the fact that many people in Capernaum had not believed his gospel:

Mat 11:25-27
(25)  At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;
(26)  yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.
(27)  All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

Earlier in the passage Christ makes clear that if the works he did in Capernaum would have been done in Sodom, it would have never been destroyed.  If the works done in Tyre and Sidon would have been done in Chorazin and Bethsaida, they would have most assuredly repented.  (Mat 11:21-23).  If Christ was so certain that these towns would have repented if mighty works had been done in them, why didn't God do them? Doesn't God want all men to repent and be saved?

Over and over again we see God's Sovereign decision to reveal His truth to some and withhold it from others.  We see that God gives the gifts of repentance and faith to some, but not all.  Christ prays and mediates as High Priest for some, but not all. This is His decision. He gives mercy to whom he will, and He passes over - as a form of justice - others.  All men are guilty, rebellious sinners, therefore no injustice is done to any.

All of this makes clear that God is not crossing His fingers hoping for a certain outcome.  He is Sovereign and as such will most certainly save every single person He has intended to save.  He is not going to set himself up for dissapointment for all eternity because some men didn't "make the right choice" or cooperate with God to allow God to save them.  God is not a bystander hoping people will - of their own ability - turn to Him. For He knows that all men are fallen and as such as hostile towards Him, finding the gospel foolishness.

Instead of letting the entire human race perish, He directly intervenes and changes the hearts of a great multitide of men, too many to number, bringing them to faith in Christ, eternally saving them.  He set His love upon them, out of shere mercy and grace, from all eternity past.  This was freely given because there is nothing in sinful man that can cause God to turn towards them in favor.

Skala,

Calvinism is all but dead...1% or less of Christians buy the stuff you're selling (that's a fact, not an opinion). Ask yourself this, would your "all sovereign" God allow for the "right" doctrine to die?

Thanks for the absolutely irrelevant points.  Please engage the text of scripture that I meticulously exegeted. You're quick to accuse the interpretation of being wrong, but you fail to offer any of your own. Hm...

You guys are really, really good at debating!

It is not the God of the Bible that I take issue with.  And it is not the scripture that I take issue with.  It is the God of the interpretation that you present that I take issue with.  And I do not take issue with the idea that God sovereignly dispenses His grace in whatever way He pleases.  That should be obvious to any who believes.  It is just that He doesn't necessarily dispense His grace in whatever way pleases you or in whatever way you perceive.

The basic problem is with the opening statement of A.W. Pink concerning sovereignty.  You posted,

That is a false statement.  All of your conclusions after that and based upon that are without merit.  And yes, some of the characteristics and nature of God that you present are gross.  In fact that beginning statement by Pink which you quoted and apparently believe is gross and disgusting.

Jimmy,

How do you know you are saved? Where does your assurance lie?

Steve