That God wants all men to be saved yet does not save all men is part of the mystery of godliness related in 1 Tim. 3:16.

Can we humans sort this out? Hardly...We must accept Scripture as it stands without attempting to scrub out certain portions to suit our particular brand of theology.

Preach the truth and where the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man is concerned, always assert both sides of the equation.

canuck

I'm not so sure it's as cut and dry easy as you make it out to be Jimmy.   Let's be honest and deal with actual, real life facts.

If God wants all to be saved, why does God not make sure that 100% of the people that ever live at some point hear the gospel?  Millions of people live full lives and die without ever hearing the name of Jesus.  Much less a full, accurate gospel presentation that explains that we are guilty under God's law and that Christ Jesus's work on the cross is the only satisfactory atonement for sins in God's sight.

Why does God not paint the gospel in the clouds for all to see?  Remember, general revelation (ie, seeing the creation) is not sufficient for saving souls.  The gospel alone is the power of God unto salvation. 

Next, if God wants all to be saved, some of His actions are very curious.  For example, Christ tells us in Matthew 11 that Chorazin and Bethsaida were in trouble for not repenting.  But then Jesus tells us that the "mighty works" done in those cities, if they had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they most assuredly would have repented.  He also tells us if those mighty works would have been done in Sodom, it wouldn't have been destroyed:

Mat 11:21-24
(21)  "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
(22)  But I tell you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you.
(23)  And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
(24)  But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you."


The question is this: If it was a certainty that Tyre and Sidon and Sodom would have repented if certain works had been done - by God - in them, why did God not do them? 

While you ponder that question, Jesus continues with an answer from the perspective of God's sovereignty and how He dispenses His grace in whatever way He wants to, hiding some things from some men and revealing some things to other men:

Mat 11:25-27
(25)  At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;
(26)  yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.
(27)  All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

While you may accuse me of being "disgusting" for believing in Sovereign grace and that God gives or withholds his grace whenever He wants, however He wants, Jesus in fact finds this fact a reason to stop in his tracks and worship. For some reason I just don't think you would have followed suit Jimmy.  Then he puts the nail in the coffin of the debate and outright says that nobody can know the Father unless the Son chooses to reveal the Father to that person. 

Curious that Jesus does not reveal the Father to every single person in human history, being that he wants them all to be saved. Curious that God does not do "mighty works" in certain places when He knows full well that it would result in repentance and salvation.

Next you should consider, oh, lets say, the entire course of human history in the old testament.  God revealed himself to Israel alone, and set his love upon them, and rescued them from paganism.  God handpicked Abraham alone, for no good reason other than a reason in God Himself, and gave him blessings and promises.  There were millions of people on earth at that time, and Abram was hand picked.

God left the other nations of the earth in total darkness and ignorance, never revealing himself to them.  He did not give them the laws, nor the prophets, nor promises, nor the sacrificial system.  I thought He wanted them all to be saved?  No, it sounds like God sovereignly dispensed his undeserved grace in whatever way he found fit.

Next consider that God says to Pharaoh:

"For this reason I raised you up, to show my power in you.."

So Pharaoh was raised to a position of authority and power for a reason.  "For this reason" I did this. Therefore you cannot say that God raised Pharaoh up with the plan of offering salvation to Pharaoh, but Pharaoh was in a position of pride and power such that he would not bow the knee to God. No, God says "For this reason I raised you up".  Pharaoh was in the position he was in on purpose. It was God's doing.  Could Pharaoh have suddenly repented, thwarting God's eternal plan to do what he wanted? God says "I raised you up on purpose to show my power in you" Tell me, at what point did God plan on saving Pharaoh and giving him grace and mercy?  If Pharaoh could have suddenly repented, does that mean God's plan of "raising him up on purpose to show his power in him" would have been thwarted? Would God have then said "I raised you up on purpose to show my power in you, but then you threw a wrench in my plans by repenting and believing!"

Then, consider this passage:

Rom 11:7-8
(7)  What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
(8)  as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day."

It is interesting that God would actually give people eyes that cannot see and ears that cannot hear, when in fact he is desperately trying to save them all, and he wants them all to come to their senses and "be saved". Or maybe He isn't.  /shrug

Next we learn that Christ speaks in parables on purpose to hide the truth from some and reveal it to others.

Mat 13:10-14
(10)  Then the disciples came and said to him, "Why do you speak to them in parables?"
(11)  And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
(12)  For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
(13)  This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
(14) Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: "'You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive.

It is curious that the Old Testament example used by Jesus is one where God tells Isaiah that he will make people's hearts dull and blind their eyes so that they cannot see or hear or understand, so that they will not turn and be healed.  Isaiah asks "How long Lord?" And God answers "Until cities lie waste without inhabitant, and houses without people, and the land is a desolate waste.." (Isa 6:9-11)

Jesus speaks parables for the exact same reason that the event in Isa 6 happened: Because God was shutting eyes and ears, hiding the truth from some, a form of justice and punishment, because it pleased him to do that rather than giving mercy which is never owed.  But for some reason, I just don't think you would agree with God's decision here Jimmy.  You would protest to Jesus saying "that's disgusting! My god would never do that!" as you have so lovingly told me several times at my mention of believing in a God who sovereignly extends or withholds grace whenever He wants. ;)

Remember, these are not the opinions of a Calvinist Jimmy. These are facts that you and I must deal with.  These are facts that literally actually happened in the course of human history.  God does not makes sure the gospel reaches every single person that is alive.  Millions live and die without ever hearing the gospel.

Is that because God put all of his eggs in the basket of evangelists and missionaries and now it's not working out how he wanted?  Or is it because he has not determined to reveal Himself to and save 100% of all people in both Old and New Testaments?

A very interesting study nonetheless.

maybe we aren't telling people.  Perhaps God will judge those who know and don't tell to a much higher standard than we would be comfortable to admit, with the souls of the untold on our heads.

If your guess was that my answer is the latter, you would be wrong.   Hardening is always the punishment for unbelief, never the cause of unbelief.

You see, unbelief is what all men have, according to our fallen, sinful natures.  Therefore when God hardens men, it is justly done, not injustice.

But God doesn't always respond to unbelief with justice.  If he did so, all men would go to hell. Sometimes he responds with mercy and grace.  He mercifully softens hearts, changes hearts, and grants the gift of faith and repentance.

A person's salvation always depends on grace and nothing else.

My question is this.  If you agree with me that all men are guilty sinners before God and no men deserve mercy, but all men justly deserve to be hardened and sent to hell, why then do you mock that it is unjust of God to mercifully soften some men? (but not all men)

How can it be injustice that some are given mercy, not justice? Mercy is not a form of injustice.

To say that those hardened and given justice were treated unjustly or unfairly is to presuppose that men deserved mercy in the first place.

But mercy cannot be deserved.  That is the very definition of mercy: Undeserved kindness.

 

Gross!!!

No my analogy doesn't fail.  We are not talking about deserving anything.  We never were, at least I wasn't.  We are talking about mercy.  Something the god of Calvin simply doesn't display.

And not it is not the Bible I find gross, it is your interpretation that I find gross - each and every petal on your TULIP.