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Author Topic: Beyond the Doctrines of Grace  (Read 5889 times)
jessbuds
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« Reply #60 on: December 16, 2008, 10:02:26 PM »
 
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38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[m] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord

It's not mine word but Paul. Smile



Quote
jess,

There is nothing in what you presented that would preclude anyone from choosing to leave.  It says that if you do not wish to leave, there is nothing that can make you leave.  God will guard you against that.  But the door is wide open for you to walk away.  It is that for which the apostle so often cautioned against.
[/quote][/quote]

Check the bold letters please.
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Butch5
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« Reply #61 on: December 16, 2008, 11:07:07 PM »
Quote from: jessbuds on December 16, 2008, 08:30:36 AM
Quote from: Butch5 on December 15, 2008, 03:14:04 PM
Quote from: jessbuds on December 14, 2008, 10:24:58 PM

Quote
Why all the warnings then???

warning? such as?


All of the warnings against falling away. Why did Jesus tell the disciples, John, Peter, Matthew, etc. to make sure they did not end up in hell?


More Than Conquerors
 28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[j] who[k] have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

 31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
   "For your sake we face death all day long;
      we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."[l] 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[m] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

It's not mine word but Paul. Smile



You didn't answer my question, why did Jesus warn the apostles to be care they did not end up in hell?
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And let those who are not found living as He taught, be understood to be no Christians, even though they profess with the lip the precepts of Christ; for not those who make profession, but those who do the works, shall be saved, according to His word: “Not every one who saith to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven.

Justin Martyr

When, however, the prescript is laid down that “without baptism, salvation is attainable by none” (chiefly on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, “Unless one be born of water, he hath not life”

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« Reply #61 on: December 16, 2008, 11:07:07 PM »
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Butch5
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« Reply #62 on: December 16, 2008, 11:11:50 PM »
Quote from: Hobbit on December 16, 2008, 12:24:05 PM
Isaiah 64:6 (King James Version)

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.



This is Isaiah making a prayer for Israel. They had sinned against God and Isaiah is saying how great their sins are. It is speaking of Israel, not all mankind.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2008, 05:17:32 PM by Butch5 » Logged
And let those who are not found living as He taught, be understood to be no Christians, even though they profess with the lip the precepts of Christ; for not those who make profession, but those who do the works, shall be saved, according to His word: “Not every one who saith to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven.

Justin Martyr

When, however, the prescript is laid down that “without baptism, salvation is attainable by none” (chiefly on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, “Unless one be born of water, he hath not life”

Tertullian
Butch5
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« Reply #63 on: December 16, 2008, 11:13:17 PM »
Quote from: Hobbit on December 16, 2008, 12:24:05 PM
Isaiah 64:6 (King James Version)

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.






Context, context, context.
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And let those who are not found living as He taught, be understood to be no Christians, even though they profess with the lip the precepts of Christ; for not those who make profession, but those who do the works, shall be saved, according to His word: “Not every one who saith to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven.

Justin Martyr

When, however, the prescript is laid down that “without baptism, salvation is attainable by none” (chiefly on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, “Unless one be born of water, he hath not life”

Tertullian
jessbuds
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« Reply #64 on: December 17, 2008, 05:02:28 AM »

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You didn't answer my question, why did Jesus warn the apostles to be care they did not end up in hell?

Where is that in the bible please? Book and verse will be very helpful. Smile
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Hobbit
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« Reply #65 on: December 17, 2008, 09:52:11 AM »
context:
Read Isaiah 64:6-12

Verse 6-12 - The people of God, in affliction, confess and bewail their sins, owning themselves unworthy of his mercy. Sin is that abominable thing which the Lord hates. Our deeds, whatever they may seem to be, if we think to merit by them at God's hand, are as rags, and will not cover us; filthy rags, and will but defile us. Even our few good works in which there is real excellence, as fruits of the Spirit, are so defective and defiled as done by us, that they need to be washed in the fountain open for sin and uncleanness. It bodes ill when prayer is kept back. To pray, is by faith to take hold of the promises the Lord has made of his good-will to us, and to plead them; to take hold of him, earnestly begging him not to leave us; or soliciting his return. They brought their troubles upon themselves by their own folly. Sinners are blasted, and then carried away, by the wind of their own iniquity; it withers and then ruins them. When they made themselves as an unclean thing, no wonder that God loathed them. Foolish and careless as we are, poor and despised, yet still Thou art our Father. It is the wrath of a Father we are under, who will be reconciled; and the relief our case requires is expected only from him. They refer themselves to God. They do not say, "Lord, rebuke us not," for that may be necessary; but, "Not in thy displeasure." They state their lamentable condition. See what ruin sin brings upon a people; and an outward profession of holiness will be no defence against it. God's people presume not to tell him what he shall say, but their prayer is, Speak for the comfort and relief of thy people. How few call upon the Lord with their whole hearts, or stir themselves to lay hold upon him! God may delay for a time to answer our prayers, but he will, in the end, answer those who call on his name and hope in his mercy
(Matthew Henry)
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« Reply #65 on: December 17, 2008, 09:52:11 AM »
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Jimmy
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« Reply #66 on: December 17, 2008, 10:17:02 AM »
Quote from: Hobbit on December 17, 2008, 09:52:11 AM
context:
Read Isaiah 64:6-12

Verse 6-12 - The people of God, in affliction, confess and bewail their sins, owning themselves unworthy of his mercy.

Since we know, according to total depravity, they could not have done that unless they had first been regenerated, how and when were they regenerated?
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Hobbit
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« Reply #67 on: December 17, 2008, 11:26:17 AM »
Quote from: Jimmy on December 17, 2008, 10:17:02 AM
Quote from: Hobbit on December 17, 2008, 09:52:11 AM
context:
Read Isaiah 64:6-12

Verse 6-12 - The people of God, in affliction, confess and bewail their sins, owning themselves unworthy of his mercy.

Since we know, according to total depravity, they could not have done that unless they had first been regenerated, how and when were they regenerated?
The same as we were!
 The difference is ,that they were looking forward, to the coming of Messiah!
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Harold
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« Reply #68 on: December 17, 2008, 12:26:27 PM »
I was watching the Huckabee show on Fox, in his interview with Mahr, he said, if God forces us in any way to take our salvation then it is no better than rape. In other words salvation has to be a choice. I thought that was an interesting thought.

FTL
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Rom 1:17  For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith." (NIV)

I neither agree nor disagree with any thing posted on the board, I am interjecting thoughts not my beliefs, unless so stated.
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« Reply #69 on: December 17, 2008, 01:59:57 PM »
Quote from: Hobbit on December 17, 2008, 11:26:17 AM
Quote from: Jimmy on December 17, 2008, 10:17:02 AM
Quote from: Hobbit on December 17, 2008, 09:52:11 AM
context:
Read Isaiah 64:6-12

Verse 6-12 - The people of God, in affliction, confess and bewail their sins, owning themselves unworthy of his mercy.

Since we know, according to total depravity, they could not have done that unless they had first been regenerated, how and when were they regenerated?
The same as we were!
 The difference is ,that they were looking forward, to the coming of Messiah!

There is nothing in all of what you posted that even hints at regeneration.  I think you have simply assumed regeneration to agree with your theology. 
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« Reply #69 on: December 17, 2008, 01:59:57 PM »
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segell
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« Reply #70 on: December 17, 2008, 03:28:55 PM »
Quote from: Harold on December 17, 2008, 12:26:27 PM
I was watching the Huckabee show on Fox, in his interview with Mahr, he said, if God forces us in any way to take our salvation then it is no better than rape. In other words salvation has to be a choice. I thought that was an interesting thought.

FTL

Harold -

Was that Huckabee or Mahr who made that statement?  Thanks.

Steve
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Ephesians 2:8-10  Who saves, how He saves, why He saves.

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
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« Reply #71 on: December 17, 2008, 03:30:07 PM »
Quote from: segell on December 17, 2008, 03:28:55 PM
Quote from: Harold on December 17, 2008, 12:26:27 PM
I was watching the Huckabee show on Fox, in his interview with Mahr, he said, if God forces us in any way to take our salvation then it is no better than rape. In other words salvation has to be a choice. I thought that was an interesting thought.

FTL

Harold -

Was that Huckabee or Mahr who made that statement?  Thanks.

Steve


That sounds like Mahr.
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Butch5
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« Reply #72 on: December 17, 2008, 05:18:55 PM »
Quote from: Hobbit on December 17, 2008, 09:52:11 AM
context:
Read Isaiah 64:6-12

Verse 6-12 - The people of God, in affliction, confess and bewail their sins, owning themselves unworthy of his mercy. Sin is that abominable thing which the Lord hates. Our deeds, whatever they may seem to be, if we think to merit by them at God's hand, are as rags, and will not cover us; filthy rags, and will but defile us. Even our few good works in which there is real excellence, as fruits of the Spirit, are so defective and defiled as done by us, that they need to be washed in the fountain open for sin and uncleanness. It bodes ill when prayer is kept back. To pray, is by faith to take hold of the promises the Lord has made of his good-will to us, and to plead them; to take hold of him, earnestly begging him not to leave us; or soliciting his return. They brought their troubles upon themselves by their own folly. Sinners are blasted, and then carried away, by the wind of their own iniquity; it withers and then ruins them. When they made themselves as an unclean thing, no wonder that God loathed them. Foolish and careless as we are, poor and despised, yet still Thou art our Father. It is the wrath of a Father we are under, who will be reconciled; and the relief our case requires is expected only from him. They refer themselves to God. They do not say, "Lord, rebuke us not," for that may be necessary; but, "Not in thy displeasure." They state their lamentable condition. See what ruin sin brings upon a people; and an outward profession of holiness will be no defence against it. God's people presume not to tell him what he shall say, but their prayer is, Speak for the comfort and relief of thy people. How few call upon the Lord with their whole hearts, or stir themselves to lay hold upon him! God may delay for a time to answer our prayers, but he will, in the end, answer those who call on his name and hope in his mercy
(Matthew Henry)


I don't need Matthew Henry's commentary. The verse is speaking of Israel, that is clear.
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And let those who are not found living as He taught, be understood to be no Christians, even though they profess with the lip the precepts of Christ; for not those who make profession, but those who do the works, shall be saved, according to His word: “Not every one who saith to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven.

Justin Martyr

When, however, the prescript is laid down that “without baptism, salvation is attainable by none” (chiefly on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, “Unless one be born of water, he hath not life”

Tertullian
Christian Forums
« Reply #72 on: December 17, 2008, 05:18:55 PM »
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Butch5
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« Reply #73 on: December 17, 2008, 05:32:12 PM »
Quote from: jessbuds on December 17, 2008, 05:02:28 AM

Quote
You didn't answer my question, why did Jesus warn the apostles to be care they did not end up in hell?

Where is that in the bible please? Book and verse will be very helpful. Smile
Quote from: jessbuds on December 17, 2008, 05:02:28 AM

Quote
You didn't answer my question, why did Jesus warn the apostles to be care they did not end up in hell?

Where is that in the bible please? Book and verse will be very helpful. Smile

Jesus said this to John, Peter, Matthew, and the rest of the apostles.


Mark 9:43-48 ( NKJV ) 43If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44£where

    ‘Their worm does not die

    And the fire is not quenched.’

45And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, £into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46where

    ‘Their worm does not die

    And the fire is not quenched.’

47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48where

    ‘Their worm does not die

    And the fire is not quenched.’£

Why the warning if the can't possibly go there?
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And let those who are not found living as He taught, be understood to be no Christians, even though they profess with the lip the precepts of Christ; for not those who make profession, but those who do the works, shall be saved, according to His word: “Not every one who saith to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven.

Justin Martyr

When, however, the prescript is laid down that “without baptism, salvation is attainable by none” (chiefly on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, “Unless one be born of water, he hath not life”

Tertullian
jessbuds
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« Reply #74 on: December 18, 2008, 12:37:11 AM »
Quote
Jesus said this to John, Peter, Matthew, and the rest of the apostles.


Mark 9:43-48 ( NKJV ) 43If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44£where

    ‘Their worm does not die

    And the fire is not quenched.’

45And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, £into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46where

    ‘Their worm does not die

    And the fire is not quenched.’

47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48where

    ‘Their worm does not die

    And the fire is not quenched.’£

Why the warning if the can't possibly go there?

 Rolling on floor laughing

Pity.

Is that how you understand it? Then Paul must cut himself to death because he himself said no matter how he tried he cannot stop sinning.

and you must cut your head too because i know you are still sinning. If you say no the bible is lying but i'd rather believe the bible than you. (sorry about that)


Struggling With Sin

 14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

 21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
      So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Our Lord is emphasizing the severity of sin in man in this passage because if He does then Peter should cut off his head because the Lord Himsefl called him satan.

don't you think your view need a little reshaping?

again I am sorry if my response is rather harsh. I just want you to wake up and trust in the grace of the Lord rather than making exceptions. The grace of God once you have it it has absolute power and everlasting effect nothing can take it out from you not even God himself. You know why? Because it is He (God) who gave it to us and God is truth and what He done to our lives are true.


Romans 8

Life Through the Spirit

 1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[d]

Another thought is; when we received Jesus Christ in our lives we did not stop sinning before we do that right? If means Jesus accepted us as we are regardless. So why He would do that after?

He said Himself;

Matthew 11:28-30 (New International Version)

 28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

 kissing





 
 
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Beyond the Doctrines of Grace - Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 Go Up Print 
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