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Offline crowcamp

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #165 on: September 01, 2011, 05:49:24 PM »
Quote
As a further complication, this was given to me for consideration:

If "The Bible says that it is God's will that all come to Him and that NO ONE perish!!"
(taken from one of your previous posts, Lively), then does He not have the power to assure no one perishes? What can or cannot He do if that is His will?

The bible answers this also. Just read the Old Testament where God pleaded for his followers to follow him but did not force them to do so and even sent then into exile for not following. Read where God wanted them to look to him but they insisted on a King as with the rest of the world and God granted it. God does not force his will on us he states his will and calls and waits for us to answer the call. The same today as was then. God wants all to come and has sent the call but knows all will not come.
So He wants none to perish, but does not force His will, and yet by His will none come to the Son unless drawn by the Father and none return to the Father unless saved by the Son?

Those conditions are not a force of will?

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." -John12:32

There is no "unless" you are drawn, He said he draws all people to Himself.

He is, has been and always will be until the last day drawing all people to Himself....ALL PEOPLE!

Not that He chooses certain individuals to draw to Himself and resists others.
Many by choice simply reject the calling that He has made to ALL people.

I will draw all men to me
;
which is not to be understood of the concourse of people about him, when on the cross, some for him, and others against him, some to bewail him, and others to reproach him; but rather of the gathering of the elect to him, and in him, as their head and representative, when he was crucified for them; or of the collection of them, through the ministry of the apostles, and of their being brought to believe on him for eternal life and salvation: and this drawing of them to him, in consequence of his death, supposes distance from him, want of power, and will, to came to him, and the efficacious grace of God to bring them, though without any force and compulsion; and this is to be understood not of every individual of human nature; for all are not drawn to Christ, or enabled to come to him, and believe in him.

From John Gill's Exposition of the Bible relating to John 12:32

John Gill was a hard-nosed Calvinist.  It is precisely his version of the Sovereignty of God that is so disastrous to a true understanding of God and the way of salvation.

Now then, he is correct when he says not all are drawn to Christ.  Those who have not heard have not been drawn.  Only God knows how He will deal with them.  However, obviously, you have heard the message, i.e., the gospel of Christ sacrificed on the cross, so then you have been drawn.  He has made the offer.  You have His offer of salvation. It is up to you and you alone to decide if you will be saved.
Agreed, I have been drawn, but then are you saying God does not draw everyone? If so, that conflicts with what others are saying in this thread.

And thanks for letting me know about John Gill. I was looking for an opinion on the passage offered and that's what I found.
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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #165 on: September 01, 2011, 05:49:24 PM »

Offline ela

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #166 on: September 01, 2011, 05:53:31 PM »
Quote
As a further complication, this was given to me for consideration:

If "The Bible says that it is God's will that all come to Him and that NO ONE perish!!"
(taken from one of your previous posts, Lively), then does He not have the power to assure no one perishes? What can or cannot He do if that is His will?

The bible answers this also. Just read the Old Testament where God pleaded for his followers to follow him but did not force them to do so and even sent then into exile for not following. Read where God wanted them to look to him but they insisted on a King as with the rest of the world and God granted it. God does not force his will on us he states his will and calls and waits for us to answer the call. The same today as was then. God wants all to come and has sent the call but knows all will not come.
So He wants none to perish, but does not force His will, and yet by His will none come to the Son unless drawn by the Father and none return to the Father unless saved by the Son?

Those conditions are not a force of will?

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." -John12:32

There is no "unless" you are drawn, He said he draws all people to Himself.

He is, has been and always will be until the last day drawing all people to Himself....ALL PEOPLE!

Not that He chooses certain individuals to draw to Himself and resists others.
Many by choice simply reject the calling that He has made to ALL people.

I will draw all men to me
;
which is not to be understood of the concourse of people about him, when on the cross, some for him, and others against him, some to bewail him, and others to reproach him; but rather of the gathering of the elect to him, and in him, as their head and representative, when he was crucified for them; or of the collection of them, through the ministry of the apostles, and of their being brought to believe on him for eternal life and salvation: and this drawing of them to him, in consequence of his death, supposes distance from him, want of power, and will, to came to him, and the efficacious grace of God to bring them, though without any force and compulsion; and this is to be understood not of every individual of human nature; for all are not drawn to Christ, or enabled to come to him, and believe in him.

From John Gill's Exposition of the Bible relating to John 12:32

John Gill was a hard-nosed Calvinist.  It is precisely his version of the Sovereignty of God that is so disastrous to a true understanding of God and the way of salvation.

Now then, he is correct when he says not all are drawn to Christ.  Those who have not heard have not been drawn.  Only God knows how He will deal with them.  However, obviously, you have heard the message, i.e., the gospel of Christ sacrificed on the cross, so then you have been drawn.  He has made the offer.  You have His offer of salvation. It is up to you and you alone to decide if you will be saved.

"But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who push the truth away from themselves. For the truth about God is manifest in them. God has put this knowledge in their hearts.....So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God." Rom. 1:18-20

Yes, He actually DOES draw ALL men. He has been faithful and diligent to endeavor to make us His children from everyside possible, save ONE.... He does not, unfortunately, "always get what He wants" (Lively:) as He has chosen to give EACH a choice.

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #166 on: September 01, 2011, 05:53:31 PM »

Offline crowcamp

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #167 on: September 01, 2011, 06:00:08 PM »
Quote
As a further complication, this was given to me for consideration:

If "The Bible says that it is God's will that all come to Him and that NO ONE perish!!"
(taken from one of your previous posts, Lively), then does He not have the power to assure no one perishes? What can or cannot He do if that is His will?

The bible answers this also. Just read the Old Testament where God pleaded for his followers to follow him but did not force them to do so and even sent then into exile for not following. Read where God wanted them to look to him but they insisted on a King as with the rest of the world and God granted it. God does not force his will on us he states his will and calls and waits for us to answer the call. The same today as was then. God wants all to come and has sent the call but knows all will not come.
So He wants none to perish, but does not force His will, and yet by His will none come to the Son unless drawn by the Father and none return to the Father unless saved by the Son?

Those conditions are not a force of will?

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." -John12:32

There is no "unless" you are drawn, He said he draws all people to Himself.

He is, has been and always will be until the last day drawing all people to Himself....ALL PEOPLE!

Not that He chooses certain individuals to draw to Himself and resists others.
Many by choice simply reject the calling that He has made to ALL people.

I will draw all men to me
;
which is not to be understood of the concourse of people about him, when on the cross, some for him, and others against him, some to bewail him, and others to reproach him; but rather of the gathering of the elect to him, and in him, as their head and representative, when he was crucified for them; or of the collection of them, through the ministry of the apostles, and of their being brought to believe on him for eternal life and salvation: and this drawing of them to him, in consequence of his death, supposes distance from him, want of power, and will, to came to him, and the efficacious grace of God to bring them, though without any force and compulsion; and this is to be understood not of every individual of human nature; for all are not drawn to Christ, or enabled to come to him, and believe in him.

From John Gill's Exposition of the Bible relating to John 12:32

John Gill was a hard-nosed Calvinist.  It is precisely his version of the Sovereignty of God that is so disastrous to a true understanding of God and the way of salvation.

Now then, he is correct when he says not all are drawn to Christ.  Those who have not heard have not been drawn.  Only God knows how He will deal with them.  However, obviously, you have heard the message, i.e., the gospel of Christ sacrificed on the cross, so then you have been drawn.  He has made the offer.  You have His offer of salvation. It is up to you and you alone to decide if you will be saved.

"But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who push the truth away from themselves. For the truth about God is manifest in them. God has put this knowledge in their hearts.....So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God." Rom. 1:18-20

Yes, He actually DOES draw ALL men. He has been faithful and diligent to endeavor to make us His children from everyside possible, save ONE.... He does not, unfortunately, "always get what He wants" (Lively:) as He has chosen to give EACH a choice.

So you and jimmy are in disagreement, and you and lively are in agreement.

And I am still confused. ::doh::
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Offline ela

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #168 on: September 01, 2011, 06:45:02 PM »
Quote
As a further complication, this was given to me for consideration:

If "The Bible says that it is God's will that all come to Him and that NO ONE perish!!"
(taken from one of your previous posts, Lively), then does He not have the power to assure no one perishes? What can or cannot He do if that is His will?

The bible answers this also. Just read the Old Testament where God pleaded for his followers to follow him but did not force them to do so and even sent then into exile for not following. Read where God wanted them to look to him but they insisted on a King as with the rest of the world and God granted it. God does not force his will on us he states his will and calls and waits for us to answer the call. The same today as was then. God wants all to come and has sent the call but knows all will not come.
So He wants none to perish, but does not force His will, and yet by His will none come to the Son unless drawn by the Father and none return to the Father unless saved by the Son?

Those conditions are not a force of will?

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." -John12:32

There is no "unless" you are drawn, He said he draws all people to Himself.

He is, has been and always will be until the last day drawing all people to Himself....ALL PEOPLE!

Not that He chooses certain individuals to draw to Himself and resists others.
Many by choice simply reject the calling that He has made to ALL people.

I will draw all men to me
;
which is not to be understood of the concourse of people about him, when on the cross, some for him, and others against him, some to bewail him, and others to reproach him; but rather of the gathering of the elect to him, and in him, as their head and representative, when he was crucified for them; or of the collection of them, through the ministry of the apostles, and of their being brought to believe on him for eternal life and salvation: and this drawing of them to him, in consequence of his death, supposes distance from him, want of power, and will, to came to him, and the efficacious grace of God to bring them, though without any force and compulsion; and this is to be understood not of every individual of human nature; for all are not drawn to Christ, or enabled to come to him, and believe in him.

From John Gill's Exposition of the Bible relating to John 12:32

John Gill was a hard-nosed Calvinist.  It is precisely his version of the Sovereignty of God that is so disastrous to a true understanding of God and the way of salvation.

Now then, he is correct when he says not all are drawn to Christ.  Those who have not heard have not been drawn.  Only God knows how He will deal with them.  However, obviously, you have heard the message, i.e., the gospel of Christ sacrificed on the cross, so then you have been drawn.  He has made the offer.  You have His offer of salvation. It is up to you and you alone to decide if you will be saved.

"But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who push the truth away from themselves. For the truth about God is manifest in them. God has put this knowledge in their hearts.....So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God." Rom. 1:18-20

Yes, He actually DOES draw ALL men. He has been faithful and diligent to endeavor to make us His children from everyside possible, save ONE.... He does not, unfortunately, "always get what He wants" (Lively:) as He has chosen to give EACH a choice.

So you and jimmy are in disagreement, and you and lively are in agreement.

And I am still confused. ::doh::

I am not trying to be in disagreement with anyone....I was merely chiming in with verses he might have overlooked. If you read the verses I stated, you'll see that God has always been drawing His creation back to Himself....but we keep rebelling....which is the reason for Christ coming, to be the ultimate sacrifice.

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #168 on: September 01, 2011, 06:45:02 PM »

Offline crowcamp

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #169 on: September 01, 2011, 06:54:16 PM »
Quote
As a further complication, this was given to me for consideration:

If "The Bible says that it is God's will that all come to Him and that NO ONE perish!!"
(taken from one of your previous posts, Lively), then does He not have the power to assure no one perishes? What can or cannot He do if that is His will?

The bible answers this also. Just read the Old Testament where God pleaded for his followers to follow him but did not force them to do so and even sent then into exile for not following. Read where God wanted them to look to him but they insisted on a King as with the rest of the world and God granted it. God does not force his will on us he states his will and calls and waits for us to answer the call. The same today as was then. God wants all to come and has sent the call but knows all will not come.
So He wants none to perish, but does not force His will, and yet by His will none come to the Son unless drawn by the Father and none return to the Father unless saved by the Son?

Those conditions are not a force of will?

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." -John12:32

There is no "unless" you are drawn, He said he draws all people to Himself.

He is, has been and always will be until the last day drawing all people to Himself....ALL PEOPLE!

Not that He chooses certain individuals to draw to Himself and resists others.
Many by choice simply reject the calling that He has made to ALL people.

I will draw all men to me
;
which is not to be understood of the concourse of people about him, when on the cross, some for him, and others against him, some to bewail him, and others to reproach him; but rather of the gathering of the elect to him, and in him, as their head and representative, when he was crucified for them; or of the collection of them, through the ministry of the apostles, and of their being brought to believe on him for eternal life and salvation: and this drawing of them to him, in consequence of his death, supposes distance from him, want of power, and will, to came to him, and the efficacious grace of God to bring them, though without any force and compulsion; and this is to be understood not of every individual of human nature; for all are not drawn to Christ, or enabled to come to him, and believe in him.

From John Gill's Exposition of the Bible relating to John 12:32

John Gill was a hard-nosed Calvinist.  It is precisely his version of the Sovereignty of God that is so disastrous to a true understanding of God and the way of salvation.

Now then, he is correct when he says not all are drawn to Christ.  Those who have not heard have not been drawn.  Only God knows how He will deal with them.  However, obviously, you have heard the message, i.e., the gospel of Christ sacrificed on the cross, so then you have been drawn.  He has made the offer.  You have His offer of salvation. It is up to you and you alone to decide if you will be saved.

"But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who push the truth away from themselves. For the truth about God is manifest in them. God has put this knowledge in their hearts.....So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God." Rom. 1:18-20

Yes, He actually DOES draw ALL men. He has been faithful and diligent to endeavor to make us His children from everyside possible, save ONE.... He does not, unfortunately, "always get what He wants" (Lively:) as He has chosen to give EACH a choice.

So you and jimmy are in disagreement, and you and lively are in agreement.

And I am still confused. ::doh::

I am not trying to be in disagreement with anyone....I was merely chiming in with verses he might have overlooked. If you read the verses I stated, you'll see that God has always been drawing His creation back to Himself....but we keep rebelling....which is the reason for Christ coming, to be the ultimate sacrifice.
I'm not disagreeing with you, ela, but the passages offered in the OP say what they say. And one tells me He draws all while another tells me He doesn't draw all. And the points of view of others outside this forum conflict, also. I feel our Lord compelled me to seek answers and I am not finding them but instead finding much disagreement.

My confusion should be easily understood. The passages are about as clear as they can be and yet even they cause division.
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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #169 on: September 01, 2011, 06:54:16 PM »



Offline ela

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #170 on: September 01, 2011, 07:00:14 PM »
If you want to get a hold of me...you know how to do it, and we can talk about it...as trying to reply by typing limits me....

 ::nodding::  ::hug::

Offline crowcamp

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #171 on: September 01, 2011, 07:38:44 PM »
So, as it seems far too often when discussing the Bible, there are multiple choices on the issue of this thread. I will lay out what I'm getting from the responses to date.

A-All is subject to God's will. He chooses (has chosen) who will be saved and they are saved. And it ain't everyone!

B-Christ died for the sins of the world and all are chosen and saved.

C-Christ died for the sins of the world and all are chosen but only some are saved even though it is God's will that all be saved. Evidently, God does not always get what He wants even though He is Omnipotent.

D-We aren't supposed to understand, are meant to always be in disunity, and heck, it doesn't matter, anyway.

E- None of the above, or all of the above; or you can just take the one that sits best with you personally.
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Offline Jaime

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #172 on: September 01, 2011, 08:04:24 PM »
Crow, I will just offer that when there seems to be conflict between 2 or more scriptures, it is US that have misinterpretted one or all of the scriptures. God is not the author of confusion. We may interpret confusion or conflict, but it is our fault. I tend to believe that if one scripture stands out as out of place with others, it is my understanding of the one or the others that is the problem.

In the case of does evangelism matter if God does the chosing, I would ask myself did Jesus misunderstand when he gave the disciples the great commission, since it is inconsistent with the verses of your OP? I would tend to look at my understanding of your OP verses, rather than trying to make the rest of the entire bible fit those two verses. Could be the wrong approach, but that's how I approach apparent conflicts in scripture. And there are quite a few "apparent" conflicts.
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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #173 on: September 01, 2011, 08:10:21 PM »
The answer to your discussions can be found in several passages.

The man born blind & the symbolic potter who makes always the most noble pot possible out of the clay.
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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #174 on: September 01, 2011, 08:14:32 PM »
The answer to your discussions can be found in several passages.

The man born blind & the symbolic potter who makes always the most noble pot possible out of the clay.
Please offer those passages.
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Offline crowcamp

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #175 on: September 01, 2011, 08:27:49 PM »
Crow, I will just offer that when there seems to be conflict between 2 or more scriptures, it is US that have misinterpretted one or all of the scriptures. God is not the author of confusion. We may interpret confusion or conflict, but it is our fault. I tend to believe that if one scripture stands out as out of place with others, it is my understanding of the one or the others that is the problem.

In the case of does evangelism matter if God does the chosing, I would ask myself did Jesus misunderstand when he gave the disciples the great commission, since it is inconsistent with the verses of your OP? I would tend to look at my understanding of your OP verses, rather than trying to make the rest of the entire bible fit those two verses. Could be the wrong approach, but that's how I approach apparent conflicts in scripture. And there are quite a few "apparent" conflicts.
Oh, I agree with you totally, Jaime. The desire is to resolve the conflict, not expand it. The verses offered in the OP are very straightforward and clear, yet they confict dramatically with what I have (and want) to believe. But what has to be determined is if the error is in the view of those passages or the view of passages which conflict. One could rationalize that the evangelizing commissioned is for the betterment of life in this physical world and has nothing to do with who comes to be with God in eternity since He will get them there by His will alone. Or............................ one could rationalize it has everything to do with who comes to eternity with our Lord. As you can see from this thread, there is a dramatic division- and from this forum (and everywhere else) a dramatic division on many, many issue relating to faith.

Now, we can simply decide that the absolute truth cannot be found, feel certain that we are right while others are wrong, and just move on. Or, we can search for the truth.

Personally, I have found myself to be in error on other issues in the past, but was pushed to learn so those errors might be corrected. On this, I don't know if I was in error or am now being led to error. Only by searching can I, or anyone else, discover the truth.
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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #176 on: September 01, 2011, 08:28:17 PM »

I'm not disagreeing with you, ela, but the passages offered in the OP say what they say. And one tells me He draws all while another tells me He doesn't draw all. And the points of view of others outside this forum conflict, also. I feel our Lord compelled me to seek answers and I am not finding them but instead finding much disagreement.

My confusion should be easily understood. The passages are about as clear as they can be and yet even they cause division.

Confusion comes when we let our eyes and ears stray from the Scriptures and entertain people's opinions. Take the Scripture and don't change the wording, and choose to believe God.

You are NOT going to find your answers on a Christian forum site, as weaving in along those who rightly divide the word of truth are those who do not rightly divide it, and are even false teachers who would deliberately lead you in their erroneous crooked path.

BEFORE all that, ask Holy Spirit to reveal you His truth----He is the ONLY ONE who can convince you of it.

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #177 on: September 01, 2011, 08:31:39 PM »

I am not trying to be in disagreement with anyone....I was merely chiming in with verses he might have overlooked. If you read the verses I stated, you'll see that God has always been drawing His creation back to Himself....but we keep rebelling....which is the reason for Christ coming, to be the ultimate sacrifice.
I'm not disagreeing with you, ela, but the passages offered in the OP say what they say. And one tells me He draws all while another tells me He doesn't draw all. And the points of view of others outside this forum conflict, also. I feel our Lord compelled me to seek answers and I am not finding them but instead finding much disagreement.

My confusion should be easily understood. The passages are about as clear as they can be and yet even they cause division.

Confusion comes when we let our eyes and ears stray from the Scriptures and entertain people's opinions. Take the Scripture and don't change the wording, and choose to believe God.

You are NOT going to find your answers on a Christian forum site, as weaving in along those who rightly divide the word of truth are those who do not rightly divide it, and are even false teachers who would deliberately lead you in their erroneous crooked path.

BEFORE all that, ask Holy Spirit to reveal you His truth----He is the ONLY ONE who can convince you of it.
[/quote]
I have asked, and I felt directed back to this forum. I have not been here for several months as I was finding no answers, just the noted division. And perhaps that's all I'm going to find once again.

But I had to try.
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Offline Lively Stone

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #178 on: September 01, 2011, 08:33:08 PM »

I have asked, and I felt directed back to this forum. I have not been here for several months as I was finding no answers, just the noted division. And perhaps that's all I'm going to find once again.

But I had to try.

I can understand that. It isn't the best, is it? Do you have a pastor---or a spiritual mentor?

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #179 on: September 01, 2011, 08:35:21 PM »

I have asked, and I felt directed back to this forum. I have not been here for several months as I was finding no answers, just the noted division. And perhaps that's all I'm going to find once again.

But I had to try.

I can understand that. It isn't the best, is it? Do you have a pastor---or a spiritual mentor?
No, but I have our Lord.
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