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Offline candy

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #140 on: Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 15:07:48 »
He knows exactly who He is choosing.  We are chosen for His purpose in His plans.  He foreknew that Judas would be a devil, but He wanted him for his purpose anyway.  God is truly amazing.   He never wastes anything.  There is no way we, the clay, can fully understand the potter, God.  God has all the pieces to the puzzle of life and we have only a few.
Candy

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #140 on: Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 15:07:48 »

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #141 on: Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 15:12:43 »
Hi, Crow Camp (c: Yes, Jesus does say, "'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.'" (in John 14:6) No one else is good enough to get us to God; only Jesus is God's only begotten Son who died for us. No one else could die for us and be satisfying to our Father enough to get us forgiven.

About being "predestined" > as others have shared, the main thing about predestination is what we are predestined to > "to be conformed to the image of His Son," in Romans 8:29. But there are people who claim to be predestined, but they are not becoming more and more loving like Jesus is. Also, there are people so arguing for "free will", but they are not freely willing and choosing to be like Jesus, and to love like Jesus does. If we are truly free, we freely love all people like Jesus wants us to do.

But people in sin have selfish character, their free wills don't work right; so they choose what is mainly about themselves and whoever they want to use. So, it does depend on God > as Romans chapter 9 can help you to understand this the right way.

But this does not mean that reaching people for Jesus is pointless; loving all people is included in our predestination; and so we do all we can to love and reach and help any people, with hope for any person, since love "hopes all things" (in 1 Corinthians 13:7). So . . . God includes us in His process of bringing people to Jesus, because God's love does not have Him doing things all by Himself, but sharing with us. It's like how you can destine what your family will do, but then you include everyone in sharing in doing it ::smile:: But we have plenty of free will and predestination people who are very independent, not including others in their lives; and so they miss out on how God's love would have them enjoying sharing and caring, instead of so worshiping their idol of independence witch wrecks their marriages, etc.

Also, it says we Christians are "members of one another", in Romans 12:5, and also in Ephesians 4:25. As members of each other, we depend on each other. Possibly we could say the human body is destined by God to work a certain way, but then the parts of the body do need and depend on each other. So, even though God destined how the body would be made and work, now the parts of the body so need to each do their part for themselves but also the whole body ::smile::

We need to love with one another so we can grow as Jesus Christ's body to become conformed to Him. As we feed each other the grace of God's love (1 Peter 4:9-10), this helps us to grow together. And this loving includes brother and sister relating and sharing which prepares us for how we will be relating in the Rapture. So, everything the Bible commands, about loving, is needed. 
Really, my question comes more from the other passage offered in the OP. How do we come to Jesus? He says that is only by the will of the Father.

Functioning and growing as the Body seems to relate more to our time in this physical existence- especially if it is already predetermined who will inherit the Kingdom- than it does to reaching the Kingdom. If God has already chosen- elected- those that will be with Him, then it really doesn't matter what we do. We love as commanded to make life better here, but it has nothing to do with where we are going.

This is not me saying that's how it is. It is furthering the question.

John 6:65 in a better translation:
And He said, This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted him [unless he is enabled to do so] by the Father.

The Bible says that it is God's will that all come to Him and that NO ONE perish!!

Why doesn't it matter what we do? Do you know who will come to Christ? Unless you have prescience, then what is the problem?


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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #141 on: Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 15:12:43 »

crowcamp

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #142 on: Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 15:35:26 »
Hi, Crow Camp (c: Yes, Jesus does say, "'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.'" (in John 14:6) No one else is good enough to get us to God; only Jesus is God's only begotten Son who died for us. No one else could die for us and be satisfying to our Father enough to get us forgiven.

About being "predestined" > as others have shared, the main thing about predestination is what we are predestined to > "to be conformed to the image of His Son," in Romans 8:29. But there are people who claim to be predestined, but they are not becoming more and more loving like Jesus is. Also, there are people so arguing for "free will", but they are not freely willing and choosing to be like Jesus, and to love like Jesus does. If we are truly free, we freely love all people like Jesus wants us to do.

But people in sin have selfish character, their free wills don't work right; so they choose what is mainly about themselves and whoever they want to use. So, it does depend on God > as Romans chapter 9 can help you to understand this the right way.

But this does not mean that reaching people for Jesus is pointless; loving all people is included in our predestination; and so we do all we can to love and reach and help any people, with hope for any person, since love "hopes all things" (in 1 Corinthians 13:7). So . . . God includes us in His process of bringing people to Jesus, because God's love does not have Him doing things all by Himself, but sharing with us. It's like how you can destine what your family will do, but then you include everyone in sharing in doing it ::smile:: But we have plenty of free will and predestination people who are very independent, not including others in their lives; and so they miss out on how God's love would have them enjoying sharing and caring, instead of so worshiping their idol of independence witch wrecks their marriages, etc.

Also, it says we Christians are "members of one another", in Romans 12:5, and also in Ephesians 4:25. As members of each other, we depend on each other. Possibly we could say the human body is destined by God to work a certain way, but then the parts of the body do need and depend on each other. So, even though God destined how the body would be made and work, now the parts of the body so need to each do their part for themselves but also the whole body ::smile::

We need to love with one another so we can grow as Jesus Christ's body to become conformed to Him. As we feed each other the grace of God's love (1 Peter 4:9-10), this helps us to grow together. And this loving includes brother and sister relating and sharing which prepares us for how we will be relating in the Rapture. So, everything the Bible commands, about loving, is needed. 
Really, my question comes more from the other passage offered in the OP. How do we come to Jesus? He says that is only by the will of the Father.

Functioning and growing as the Body seems to relate more to our time in this physical existence- especially if it is already predetermined who will inherit the Kingdom- than it does to reaching the Kingdom. If God has already chosen- elected- those that will be with Him, then it really doesn't matter what we do. We love as commanded to make life better here, but it has nothing to do with where we are going.

This is not me saying that's how it is. It is furthering the question.

John 6:65 in a better translation:
And He said, This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted him [unless he is enabled to do so] by the Father.

The Bible says that it is God's will that all come to Him and that NO ONE perish!!

Why doesn't it matter what we do? Do you know who will come to Christ? Unless you have prescience, then what is the problem?


If God uses us to draw those He has chosen to Jesus, then He uses us. If we draw, we draw by His will. None come to the Son except by the will of the Father. Our decisions to build temples, to pray non-stop, to kill others in His name, to do whatever we assume we are supposed to do are pointless- unless that is what the Father has directed. Some here have mentioned receiving "rewards". Rewards for what? If God has chosen in advance, there is nothing we can do to reap some kind of reward. What we do is meaningless, pointless. What matters is who He sends to the Son.

We don't have to know who will come to Christ. We have nothing to do with it. God has chosen those that will come. He has to. At least, He has to according to His Son.

One more time, this is not what I want to believe. This is what Scripture is telling me.

Offline gospel

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #143 on: Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 15:49:05 »
I totally agree with you Gospel.  His Holy Spirit gets inside us and it's an instant change in the blink of an eye.  The attraction of us to Him is unavoidable.  We truly don't have a choice.  When the Holy God chooses you, you are His and that's all.  Truly I'd rather be His than anything else in the world.  We know the end of the story and that this is not our home, heaven is.  We will be living with Him forever.  I can't wait!!  I truly hope more souls will be saved as He loves us so much.  This whole life is truly about Him and not us.
Candy

Great post Candy and in it you hit a very key word... ATTRACTION, it is very closely related to the word DRAW

The Father DRAWS us!

The phrase in itself implies a stronger power exerting influence over something or someone who is incapable of resisting

A Magnet draws a paper clip, the paper clip is powerless to resist

God draws us, that's what Jesus said!

No amount of interpretation can change that into some kind of obfuscated gooblety gook

God enables us

That means by drawing us He enables us to come to Him through Jesus

Some of you might as well come to grip with the fact that

SOME PEOPLE ARE NOT CAPABLE of coming to Jesus and Never will

Sorry but its the Truth

Everybody is not capable,

and just like magnets

There are some people who are polar opposites to God,

they are not ATTRACTED to God at all, instead they are REPELLED by the very name of Jesus or the very thought of God
 
Only those who God enables are capable of coming to Him through Jesus....get over it already!

God is not running

The Kingdom of Heaven like a politically correct, one size fits all, ACLU paradise

It's a monarchy and the King is gathering His Subjects!  


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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #143 on: Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 15:49:05 »

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #144 on: Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 16:05:39 »
Crowcamp asked "Really, my question comes more from the other passage offered in the OP. How do we come to Jesus? He says that is only by the will of the Father. "

Once this is answered in truth the way Jesus would answer it for you then you begin to understand more about this topic.

How Does God call his people.

1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared F1 to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience F2 to the faith among all nations, for his name: 6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ: 7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.  Romans 1:1-7 (KJV)

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Romans 1:16 (KJV)

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report F39? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.  Romans 10:13-17 (KJV)
« Last Edit: Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 16:28:31 by yogi bear »

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #144 on: Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 16:05:39 »



Offline gospel

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #145 on: Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 16:07:55 »
Crowcamp asked "Really, my question comes more from the other passage offered in the OP. How do we come to Jesus? He says that is only by the will of the Father. "

Once this is answered in truth the Jesus would answer it for you then you begin to understand more about this topic.

How Does God call his people.

1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared F1 to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience F2 to the faith among all nations, for his name: 6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ: 7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.  Romans 1:1-7 (KJV)

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Romans 1:16 (KJV)

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report F39? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.  Romans 10:13-17 (KJV)

Good post!

Offline yogi bear

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #146 on: Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 16:09:36 »
What was predestined? The cross

Who are the chosen ones? the called

Who is called? everyone

How is one called? The Gospel of Christ

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #147 on: Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 16:17:11 »
If God uses us to draw those He has chosen to Jesus, then He uses us. If we draw, we draw by His will. None come to the Son except by the will of the Father. Our decisions to build temples, to pray non-stop, to kill others in His name, to do whatever we assume we are supposed to do are pointless- unless that is what the Father has directed. Some here have mentioned receiving "rewards". Rewards for what? If God has chosen in advance, there is nothing we can do to reap some kind of reward. What we do is meaningless, pointless. What matters is who He sends to the Son.

We don't have to know who will come to Christ. We have nothing to do with it. God has chosen those that will come. He has to. At least, He has to according to His Son.

One more time, this is not what I want to believe. This is what Scripture is telling me.

The point is, it is God's will that all come to Him by way of His Son, Jesus. He makes a way for everyone. He knocks on every heart's door.

We do His will when we SUBMIT TO IT. Otherwise people are doing their own will. We have our own sovereignty built in by God at creation.

Why do you make this your dire concern? You have been chosen. Now either receive Jesus or spurn Him---that is your right of response.

Once we know Christ, there is absolutely nothing pointless in knowing Him and doing what He asks us to do. We have a lot to do with how and when people come to Christ. If you reject His will in your life, it makes His job a lot harder, and people will be delayed in coming to salvation, blessings will be postponed or negated, and the planned works of God can be rerouted for others to do, or receive. Why should you make God's part in everything more difficult when you can be open and available to His will, and influence more for Christ? What you do  AND DON'T DO FOR THE SAKE OF THE KINGDOM will be accounted to you on ACCOUNTING DAY.

crowcamp

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #148 on: Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 16:27:29 »
If God uses us to draw those He has chosen to Jesus, then He uses us. If we draw, we draw by His will. None come to the Son except by the will of the Father. Our decisions to build temples, to pray non-stop, to kill others in His name, to do whatever we assume we are supposed to do are pointless- unless that is what the Father has directed. Some here have mentioned receiving "rewards". Rewards for what? If God has chosen in advance, there is nothing we can do to reap some kind of reward. What we do is meaningless, pointless. What matters is who He sends to the Son.

We don't have to know who will come to Christ. We have nothing to do with it. God has chosen those that will come. He has to. At least, He has to according to His Son.

One more time, this is not what I want to believe. This is what Scripture is telling me.

The point is, it is God's will that all come to Him by way of His Son, Jesus. He makes a way for everyone. He knocks on every heart's door.

We do His will when we SUBMIT TO IT. Otherwise people are doing their own will. We have our own sovereignty built in by God at creation.

Why do you make this your dire concern? You have been chosen. Now either receive Jesus or spurn Him---that is your right of response.

Once we know Christ, there is absolutely nothing pointless in knowing Him and doing what He asks us to do. We have a lot to do with how and when people come to Christ. If you reject His will in your life, it makes His job a lot harder, and people will be delayed in coming to salvation, blessings will be postponed or negated, and the planned works of God can be rerouted for others to do, or receive. Why should you make God's part in everything more difficult when you can be open and available to His will, and influence more for Christ? What you do  AND DON'T DO FOR THE SAKE OF THE KINGDOM will be accounted to you on ACCOUNTING DAY.
Why do I make this my "dire concern"? Because it conficts with what I have believed and yet I cannot resolve it as being untrue. What is in the OP are the words of our Lord. Do I declare them to be untrue?

As a further complication, this was given to me for consideration:

If "The Bible says that it is God's will that all come to Him and that NO ONE perish!!"
(taken from one of your previous posts, Lively), then does He not have the power to assure no one perishes? What can or cannot He do if that is His will?


Offline Lively Stone

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #149 on: Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 16:32:17 »
If God uses us to draw those He has chosen to Jesus, then He uses us. If we draw, we draw by His will. None come to the Son except by the will of the Father. Our decisions to build temples, to pray non-stop, to kill others in His name, to do whatever we assume we are supposed to do are pointless- unless that is what the Father has directed. Some here have mentioned receiving "rewards". Rewards for what? If God has chosen in advance, there is nothing we can do to reap some kind of reward. What we do is meaningless, pointless. What matters is who He sends to the Son.

We don't have to know who will come to Christ. We have nothing to do with it. God has chosen those that will come. He has to. At least, He has to according to His Son.

One more time, this is not what I want to believe. This is what Scripture is telling me.

The point is, it is God's will that all come to Him by way of His Son, Jesus. He makes a way for everyone. He knocks on every heart's door.

We do His will when we SUBMIT TO IT. Otherwise people are doing their own will. We have our own sovereignty built in by God at creation.

Why do you make this your dire concern? You have been chosen. Now either receive Jesus or spurn Him---that is your right of response.

Once we know Christ, there is absolutely nothing pointless in knowing Him and doing what He asks us to do. We have a lot to do with how and when people come to Christ. If you reject His will in your life, it makes His job a lot harder, and people will be delayed in coming to salvation, blessings will be postponed or negated, and the planned works of God can be rerouted for others to do, or receive. Why should you make God's part in everything more difficult when you can be open and available to His will, and influence more for Christ? What you do  AND DON'T DO FOR THE SAKE OF THE KINGDOM will be accounted to you on ACCOUNTING DAY.
Why do I make this my "dire concern"? Because it conficts with what I have believed and yet I cannot resolve it as being untrue. What is in the OP are the words of our Lord. Do I declare them to be untrue?

What is used in the OP is being misinterpreted by you.


Quote
As a further complication, this was given to me for consideration:

If "The Bible says that it is God's will that all come to Him and that NO ONE perish!!"
(taken from one of your previous posts, Lively), then does He not have the power to assure no one perishes? What can or cannot He do if that is His will?

Why on earth is that a complication?

God has the utmost respect for His Creation and his personal sovereignty. He will not run roughshod over it. He has done everything possible for us to receive salvation and freedom and intimate father-child relationship with Him, including sending His Son to the cross to be murdered for me and you, and He provides the truth to every creature, but He will not make the decision for us.

It is for us to respond to His great love.




Offline yogi bear

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #150 on: Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 16:35:35 »
Quote
As a further complication, this was given to me for consideration:

If "The Bible says that it is God's will that all come to Him and that NO ONE perish!!"
(taken from one of your previous posts, Lively), then does He not have the power to assure no one perishes? What can or cannot He do if that is His will?

The bible answers this also. Just read the Old Testament where God pleaded for his followers to follow him but did not force them to do so and even sent then into exile for not following. Read where God wanted them to look to him but they insisted on a King as with the rest of the world and God granted it. God does not force his will on us he states his will and calls and waits for us to answer the call. The same today as was then. God wants all to come and has sent the call but knows all will not come.

crowcamp

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #151 on: Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 16:38:05 »
If God uses us to draw those He has chosen to Jesus, then He uses us. If we draw, we draw by His will. None come to the Son except by the will of the Father. Our decisions to build temples, to pray non-stop, to kill others in His name, to do whatever we assume we are supposed to do are pointless- unless that is what the Father has directed. Some here have mentioned receiving "rewards". Rewards for what? If God has chosen in advance, there is nothing we can do to reap some kind of reward. What we do is meaningless, pointless. What matters is who He sends to the Son.

We don't have to know who will come to Christ. We have nothing to do with it. God has chosen those that will come. He has to. At least, He has to according to His Son.

One more time, this is not what I want to believe. This is what Scripture is telling me.

The point is, it is God's will that all come to Him by way of His Son, Jesus. He makes a way for everyone. He knocks on every heart's door.

We do His will when we SUBMIT TO IT. Otherwise people are doing their own will. We have our own sovereignty built in by God at creation.

Why do you make this your dire concern? You have been chosen. Now either receive Jesus or spurn Him---that is your right of response.

Once we know Christ, there is absolutely nothing pointless in knowing Him and doing what He asks us to do. We have a lot to do with how and when people come to Christ. If you reject His will in your life, it makes His job a lot harder, and people will be delayed in coming to salvation, blessings will be postponed or negated, and the planned works of God can be rerouted for others to do, or receive. Why should you make God's part in everything more difficult when you can be open and available to His will, and influence more for Christ? What you do  AND DON'T DO FOR THE SAKE OF THE KINGDOM will be accounted to you on ACCOUNTING DAY.
Why do I make this my "dire concern"? Because it conficts with what I have believed and yet I cannot resolve it as being untrue. What is in the OP are the words of our Lord. Do I declare them to be untrue?

What is used in the OP is being misinterpreted by you.


Quote
As a further complication, this was given to me for consideration:

If "The Bible says that it is God's will that all come to Him and that NO ONE perish!!"
(taken from one of your previous posts, Lively), then does He not have the power to assure no one perishes? What can or cannot He do if that is His will?

Why on earth is that a complication?

God has the utmost respect for His Creation and his personal sovereignty. He will not run roughshod over it. He has done everything possible for us to receive salvation and freedom and intimate father-child relationship with Him, including sending His Son to the cross to be murdered for me and you, and He provides the truth to every creature, but He will not make the decision for us.

It is for us to respond to His great love.




Rather difficult to misinterpet the straightforward.

Why a complication? Because if God wants none to perish, then none will. Who or what can prevent God from doing His will? That is, unless God has limits??????

crowcamp

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #152 on: Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 16:41:21 »
Quote
As a further complication, this was given to me for consideration:

If "The Bible says that it is God's will that all come to Him and that NO ONE perish!!"
(taken from one of your previous posts, Lively), then does He not have the power to assure no one perishes? What can or cannot He do if that is His will?

The bible answers this also. Just read the Old Testament where God pleaded for his followers to follow him but did not force them to do so and even sent then into exile for not following. Read where God wanted them to look to him but they insisted on a King as with the rest of the world and God granted it. God does not force his will on us he states his will and calls and waits for us to answer the call. The same today as was then. God wants all to come and has sent the call but knows all will not come.
So He wants none to perish, but does not force His will, and yet by His will none come to the Son unless drawn by the Father and none return to the Father unless saved by the Son?

Those conditions are not a force of will?

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #153 on: Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 16:43:47 »
Crowcamp,
If you read through out the bible you find where God changed his mind several times and also willed something but did not force it into being. The bible is full of those stories especially in the Old Testament

crowcamp

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #154 on: Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 16:48:49 »
Crowcamp,
If you read through out the bible you find where God changed his mind several times and also willed something but did not force it into being. The bible is full of those stories especially in the Old Testament
Could you provide me with one of those stories where God changed His mind?

And should we be concerned that He might again?

Offline Lively Stone

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #155 on: Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 16:50:56 »
If God uses us to draw those He has chosen to Jesus, then He uses us. If we draw, we draw by His will. None come to the Son except by the will of the Father. Our decisions to build temples, to pray non-stop, to kill others in His name, to do whatever we assume we are supposed to do are pointless- unless that is what the Father has directed. Some here have mentioned receiving "rewards". Rewards for what? If God has chosen in advance, there is nothing we can do to reap some kind of reward. What we do is meaningless, pointless. What matters is who He sends to the Son.

We don't have to know who will come to Christ. We have nothing to do with it. God has chosen those that will come. He has to. At least, He has to according to His Son.

One more time, this is not what I want to believe. This is what Scripture is telling me.

The point is, it is God's will that all come to Him by way of His Son, Jesus. He makes a way for everyone. He knocks on every heart's door.

We do His will when we SUBMIT TO IT. Otherwise people are doing their own will. We have our own sovereignty built in by God at creation.

Why do you make this your dire concern? You have been chosen. Now either receive Jesus or spurn Him---that is your right of response.

Once we know Christ, there is absolutely nothing pointless in knowing Him and doing what He asks us to do. We have a lot to do with how and when people come to Christ. If you reject His will in your life, it makes His job a lot harder, and people will be delayed in coming to salvation, blessings will be postponed or negated, and the planned works of God can be rerouted for others to do, or receive. Why should you make God's part in everything more difficult when you can be open and available to His will, and influence more for Christ? What you do  AND DON'T DO FOR THE SAKE OF THE KINGDOM will be accounted to you on ACCOUNTING DAY.
Why do I make this my "dire concern"? Because it conficts with what I have believed and yet I cannot resolve it as being untrue. What is in the OP are the words of our Lord. Do I declare them to be untrue?

What is used in the OP is being misinterpreted by you.


Quote
As a further complication, this was given to me for consideration:

If "The Bible says that it is God's will that all come to Him and that NO ONE perish!!"
(taken from one of your previous posts, Lively), then does He not have the power to assure no one perishes? What can or cannot He do if that is His will?

Why on earth is that a complication?

God has the utmost respect for His Creation and his personal sovereignty. He will not run roughshod over it. He has done everything possible for us to receive salvation and freedom and intimate father-child relationship with Him, including sending His Son to the cross to be murdered for me and you, and He provides the truth to every creature, but He will not make the decision for us.

It is for us to respond to His great love.




Rather difficult to misinterpet the straightforward.

Why a complication? Because if God wants none to perish, then none will. Who or what can prevent God from doing His will? That is, unless God has limits??????

God doesn't always get what He wants. Yes, He sets limits for Himself...our will, and working in and through human beings as they submit to Him. He is moved to action by prayer and intercession. If no one prays, people will miss God.

crowcamp

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #156 on: Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 16:59:15 »
If God uses us to draw those He has chosen to Jesus, then He uses us. If we draw, we draw by His will. None come to the Son except by the will of the Father. Our decisions to build temples, to pray non-stop, to kill others in His name, to do whatever we assume we are supposed to do are pointless- unless that is what the Father has directed. Some here have mentioned receiving "rewards". Rewards for what? If God has chosen in advance, there is nothing we can do to reap some kind of reward. What we do is meaningless, pointless. What matters is who He sends to the Son.

We don't have to know who will come to Christ. We have nothing to do with it. God has chosen those that will come. He has to. At least, He has to according to His Son.

One more time, this is not what I want to believe. This is what Scripture is telling me.

The point is, it is God's will that all come to Him by way of His Son, Jesus. He makes a way for everyone. He knocks on every heart's door.

We do His will when we SUBMIT TO IT. Otherwise people are doing their own will. We have our own sovereignty built in by God at creation.

Why do you make this your dire concern? You have been chosen. Now either receive Jesus or spurn Him---that is your right of response.

Once we know Christ, there is absolutely nothing pointless in knowing Him and doing what He asks us to do. We have a lot to do with how and when people come to Christ. If you reject His will in your life, it makes His job a lot harder, and people will be delayed in coming to salvation, blessings will be postponed or negated, and the planned works of God can be rerouted for others to do, or receive. Why should you make God's part in everything more difficult when you can be open and available to His will, and influence more for Christ? What you do  AND DON'T DO FOR THE SAKE OF THE KINGDOM will be accounted to you on ACCOUNTING DAY.
Why do I make this my "dire concern"? Because it conficts with what I have believed and yet I cannot resolve it as being untrue. What is in the OP are the words of our Lord. Do I declare them to be untrue?

What is used in the OP is being misinterpreted by you.


Quote
As a further complication, this was given to me for consideration:

If "The Bible says that it is God's will that all come to Him and that NO ONE perish!!"
(taken from one of your previous posts, Lively), then does He not have the power to assure no one perishes? What can or cannot He do if that is His will?

Why on earth is that a complication?

God has the utmost respect for His Creation and his personal sovereignty. He will not run roughshod over it. He has done everything possible for us to receive salvation and freedom and intimate father-child relationship with Him, including sending His Son to the cross to be murdered for me and you, and He provides the truth to every creature, but He will not make the decision for us.

It is for us to respond to His great love.




Rather difficult to misinterpet the straightforward.

Why a complication? Because if God wants none to perish, then none will. Who or what can prevent God from doing His will? That is, unless God has limits??????

God doesn't always get what He wants. Yes, He sets limits for Himself...our will, and working in and through human beings as they submit to Him. He is moved to action by prayer and intercession. If no one prays, people will miss God.
"God doesn't always get what He wants"

That, I will have to think on for quite some time. It is a different view of God than has ever been presented to me.

Offline gospel

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #157 on: Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 17:36:49 »
If God uses us to draw those He has chosen to Jesus, then He uses us. If we draw, we draw by His will. None come to the Son except by the will of the Father. Our decisions to build temples, to pray non-stop, to kill others in His name, to do whatever we assume we are supposed to do are pointless- unless that is what the Father has directed. Some here have mentioned receiving "rewards". Rewards for what? If God has chosen in advance, there is nothing we can do to reap some kind of reward. What we do is meaningless, pointless. What matters is who He sends to the Son.

We don't have to know who will come to Christ. We have nothing to do with it. God has chosen those that will come. He has to. At least, He has to according to His Son.

One more time, this is not what I want to believe. This is what Scripture is telling me.

The point is, it is God's will that all come to Him by way of His Son, Jesus. He makes a way for everyone. He knocks on every heart's door.

We do His will when we SUBMIT TO IT. Otherwise people are doing their own will. We have our own sovereignty built in by God at creation.

Why do you make this your dire concern? You have been chosen. Now either receive Jesus or spurn Him---that is your right of response.

Once we know Christ, there is absolutely nothing pointless in knowing Him and doing what He asks us to do. We have a lot to do with how and when people come to Christ. If you reject His will in your life, it makes His job a lot harder, and people will be delayed in coming to salvation, blessings will be postponed or negated, and the planned works of God can be rerouted for others to do, or receive. Why should you make God's part in everything more difficult when you can be open and available to His will, and influence more for Christ? What you do  AND DON'T DO FOR THE SAKE OF THE KINGDOM will be accounted to you on ACCOUNTING DAY.
Why do I make this my "dire concern"? Because it conficts with what I have believed and yet I cannot resolve it as being untrue. What is in the OP are the words of our Lord. Do I declare them to be untrue?

What is used in the OP is being misinterpreted by you.


Quote
As a further complication, this was given to me for consideration:

If "The Bible says that it is God's will that all come to Him and that NO ONE perish!!"
(taken from one of your previous posts, Lively), then does He not have the power to assure no one perishes? What can or cannot He do if that is His will?

Why on earth is that a complication?

God has the utmost respect for His Creation and his personal sovereignty. He will not run roughshod over it. He has done everything possible for us to receive salvation and freedom and intimate father-child relationship with Him, including sending His Son to the cross to be murdered for me and you, and He provides the truth to every creature, but He will not make the decision for us.

It is for us to respond to His great love.




Rather difficult to misinterpet the straightforward.

Why a complication? Because if God wants none to perish, then none will. Who or what can prevent God from doing His will? That is, unless God has limits??????

It simply means its not His Will that none perish, in other words it was never his plan for mankind to fall

Rebellion, chaos and disorder do not have their source in God

Hence it is not His desire that any perish does not mean that He will prevent those will

He already knows the ending, He already knows who will be with Him in Eternity

He already knows who will come and who will not

Only those who are His will answer the call

Yet He desires that none perish


Side bar

I desire that my children never fall and scrape their knees and have provided as much as I can to prevent it

Yet they will fall, they will scrape their knees and they will cry

I do not desire it, nor can I prevent it

Nor would it be realistic if they never ever experienced falling down at some point  ::shrug::

BornToReign

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #158 on: Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 18:07:38 »
Quote
As a further complication, this was given to me for consideration:

If "The Bible says that it is God's will that all come to Him and that NO ONE perish!!"
(taken from one of your previous posts, Lively), then does He not have the power to assure no one perishes? What can or cannot He do if that is His will?

The bible answers this also. Just read the Old Testament where God pleaded for his followers to follow him but did not force them to do so and even sent then into exile for not following. Read where God wanted them to look to him but they insisted on a King as with the rest of the world and God granted it. God does not force his will on us he states his will and calls and waits for us to answer the call. The same today as was then. God wants all to come and has sent the call but knows all will not come.
So He wants none to perish, but does not force His will, and yet by His will none come to the Son unless drawn by the Father and none return to the Father unless saved by the Son?

Those conditions are not a force of will?

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." -John12:32

There is no "unless" you are drawn, He said he draws all people to Himself.

He is, has been and always will be until the last day drawing all people to Himself....ALL PEOPLE!

Not that He chooses certain individuals to draw to Himself and resists others.
Many by choice simply reject the calling that He has made to ALL people.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #159 on: Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 18:26:07 »
If God uses us to draw those He has chosen to Jesus, then He uses us. If we draw, we draw by His will. None come to the Son except by the will of the Father. Our decisions to build temples, to pray non-stop, to kill others in His name, to do whatever we assume we are supposed to do are pointless- unless that is what the Father has directed. Some here have mentioned receiving "rewards". Rewards for what? If God has chosen in advance, there is nothing we can do to reap some kind of reward. What we do is meaningless, pointless. What matters is who He sends to the Son.

We don't have to know who will come to Christ. We have nothing to do with it. God has chosen those that will come. He has to. At least, He has to according to His Son.

One more time, this is not what I want to believe. This is what Scripture is telling me.

The point is, it is God's will that all come to Him by way of His Son, Jesus. He makes a way for everyone. He knocks on every heart's door.

We do His will when we SUBMIT TO IT. Otherwise people are doing their own will. We have our own sovereignty built in by God at creation.

Why do you make this your dire concern? You have been chosen. Now either receive Jesus or spurn Him---that is your right of response.

Once we know Christ, there is absolutely nothing pointless in knowing Him and doing what He asks us to do. We have a lot to do with how and when people come to Christ. If you reject His will in your life, it makes His job a lot harder, and people will be delayed in coming to salvation, blessings will be postponed or negated, and the planned works of God can be rerouted for others to do, or receive. Why should you make God's part in everything more difficult when you can be open and available to His will, and influence more for Christ? What you do  AND DON'T DO FOR THE SAKE OF THE KINGDOM will be accounted to you on ACCOUNTING DAY.
Why do I make this my "dire concern"? Because it conficts with what I have believed and yet I cannot resolve it as being untrue. What is in the OP are the words of our Lord. Do I declare them to be untrue?

What is used in the OP is being misinterpreted by you.


Quote
As a further complication, this was given to me for consideration:

If "The Bible says that it is God's will that all come to Him and that NO ONE perish!!"
(taken from one of your previous posts, Lively), then does He not have the power to assure no one perishes? What can or cannot He do if that is His will?

Why on earth is that a complication?

God has the utmost respect for His Creation and his personal sovereignty. He will not run roughshod over it. He has done everything possible for us to receive salvation and freedom and intimate father-child relationship with Him, including sending His Son to the cross to be murdered for me and you, and He provides the truth to every creature, but He will not make the decision for us.

It is for us to respond to His great love.




Rather difficult to misinterpet the straightforward.

Why a complication? Because if God wants none to perish, then none will. Who or what can prevent God from doing His will? That is, unless God has limits??????

God doesn't always get what He wants. Yes, He sets limits for Himself...our will, and working in and through human beings as they submit to Him. He is moved to action by prayer and intercession. If no one prays, people will miss God.
"God doesn't always get what He wants"

That, I will have to think on for quite some time. It is a different view of God than has ever been presented to me.

Do you think God wanted Satan to rebel?  Do you think God wanted Adam and Eve to sin?  Do you think God wanted the conditions that led to the flood?  The destruction of Sodom and Gomorah? That and many other situations that God decried throughout the OT?

I don't think so.  That is why the theology of the Sovereignty of God which you have undoubtedly been exposed to is so horrendously bad.  It is precisely the things that man does by his own free will, given to him by God, that are so very often exactly the opposite of what God wants.  He knew all of this ahead of time obviously.  That is why he established the way of Salvation that He did and as He did even before the creation of the world.

Give heed to what Yogi Bear said earlier:

What was predestined? The cross

Who are the chosen ones? the called

Who is called? everyone

How is one called? The Gospel of Christ

crowcamp

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #160 on: Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 18:26:24 »
Quote
As a further complication, this was given to me for consideration:

If "The Bible says that it is God's will that all come to Him and that NO ONE perish!!"
(taken from one of your previous posts, Lively), then does He not have the power to assure no one perishes? What can or cannot He do if that is His will?

The bible answers this also. Just read the Old Testament where God pleaded for his followers to follow him but did not force them to do so and even sent then into exile for not following. Read where God wanted them to look to him but they insisted on a King as with the rest of the world and God granted it. God does not force his will on us he states his will and calls and waits for us to answer the call. The same today as was then. God wants all to come and has sent the call but knows all will not come.
So He wants none to perish, but does not force His will, and yet by His will none come to the Son unless drawn by the Father and none return to the Father unless saved by the Son?

Those conditions are not a force of will?

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." -John12:32

There is no "unless" you are drawn, He said he draws all people to Himself.

He is, has been and always will be until the last day drawing all people to Himself....ALL PEOPLE!

Not that He chooses certain individuals to draw to Himself and resists others.
Many by choice simply reject the calling that He has made to ALL people.

I will draw all men to me
;
which is not to be understood of the concourse of people about him, when on the cross, some for him, and others against him, some to bewail him, and others to reproach him; but rather of the gathering of the elect to him, and in him, as their head and representative, when he was crucified for them; or of the collection of them, through the ministry of the apostles, and of their being brought to believe on him for eternal life and salvation: and this drawing of them to him, in consequence of his death, supposes distance from him, want of power, and will, to came to him, and the efficacious grace of God to bring them, though without any force and compulsion; and this is to be understood not of every individual of human nature; for all are not drawn to Christ, or enabled to come to him, and believe in him.

From John Gill's Exposition of the Bible relating to John 12:32

BornToReign

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #161 on: Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 18:32:24 »
Quote
As a further complication, this was given to me for consideration:

If "The Bible says that it is God's will that all come to Him and that NO ONE perish!!"
(taken from one of your previous posts, Lively), then does He not have the power to assure no one perishes? What can or cannot He do if that is His will?

The bible answers this also. Just read the Old Testament where God pleaded for his followers to follow him but did not force them to do so and even sent then into exile for not following. Read where God wanted them to look to him but they insisted on a King as with the rest of the world and God granted it. God does not force his will on us he states his will and calls and waits for us to answer the call. The same today as was then. God wants all to come and has sent the call but knows all will not come.
So He wants none to perish, but does not force His will, and yet by His will none come to the Son unless drawn by the Father and none return to the Father unless saved by the Son?

Those conditions are not a force of will?

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." -John12:32

There is no "unless" you are drawn, He said he draws all people to Himself.

He is, has been and always will be until the last day drawing all people to Himself....ALL PEOPLE!

Not that He chooses certain individuals to draw to Himself and resists others.
Many by choice simply reject the calling that He has made to ALL people.

I will draw all men to me
;
which is not to be understood of the concourse of people about him, when on the cross, some for him, and others against him, some to bewail him, and others to reproach him; but rather of the gathering of the elect to him, and in him, as their head and representative, when he was crucified for them; or of the collection of them, through the ministry of the apostles, and of their being brought to believe on him for eternal life and salvation: and this drawing of them to him, in consequence of his death, supposes distance from him, want of power, and will, to came to him, and the efficacious grace of God to bring them, though without any force and compulsion; and this is to be understood not of every individual of human nature; for all are not drawn to Christ, or enabled to come to him, and believe in him.

From John Gill's Exposition of the Bible relating to John 12:32

I see your problem now my friend and I can only give you one last piece of advice.

Begin to listen to God and His Word, place your trust in Him instead of John Gill.  Whoever that is.

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #162 on: Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 18:35:02 »
Quote
As a further complication, this was given to me for consideration:

If "The Bible says that it is God's will that all come to Him and that NO ONE perish!!"
(taken from one of your previous posts, Lively), then does He not have the power to assure no one perishes? What can or cannot He do if that is His will?

The bible answers this also. Just read the Old Testament where God pleaded for his followers to follow him but did not force them to do so and even sent then into exile for not following. Read where God wanted them to look to him but they insisted on a King as with the rest of the world and God granted it. God does not force his will on us he states his will and calls and waits for us to answer the call. The same today as was then. God wants all to come and has sent the call but knows all will not come.
So He wants none to perish, but does not force His will, and yet by His will none come to the Son unless drawn by the Father and none return to the Father unless saved by the Son?

Those conditions are not a force of will?

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." -John12:32

There is no "unless" you are drawn, He said he draws all people to Himself.

He is, has been and always will be until the last day drawing all people to Himself....ALL PEOPLE!

Not that He chooses certain individuals to draw to Himself and resists others.
Many by choice simply reject the calling that He has made to ALL people.

I will draw all men to me
;
which is not to be understood of the concourse of people about him, when on the cross, some for him, and others against him, some to bewail him, and others to reproach him; but rather of the gathering of the elect to him, and in him, as their head and representative, when he was crucified for them; or of the collection of them, through the ministry of the apostles, and of their being brought to believe on him for eternal life and salvation: and this drawing of them to him, in consequence of his death, supposes distance from him, want of power, and will, to came to him, and the efficacious grace of God to bring them, though without any force and compulsion; and this is to be understood not of every individual of human nature; for all are not drawn to Christ, or enabled to come to him, and believe in him.

From John Gill's Exposition of the Bible relating to John 12:32

John Gill was a hard-nosed Calvinist.  It is precisely his version of the Sovereignty of God that is so disastrous to a true understanding of God and the way of salvation.

Now then, he is correct when he says not all are drawn to Christ.  Those who have not heard have not been drawn.  Only God knows how He will deal with them.  However, obviously, you have heard the message, i.e., the gospel of Christ sacrificed on the cross, so then you have been drawn.  He has made the offer.  You have His offer of salvation. It is up to you and you alone to decide if you will be saved.

crowcamp

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #163 on: Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 18:39:07 »
Quote
As a further complication, this was given to me for consideration:

If "The Bible says that it is God's will that all come to Him and that NO ONE perish!!"
(taken from one of your previous posts, Lively), then does He not have the power to assure no one perishes? What can or cannot He do if that is His will?

The bible answers this also. Just read the Old Testament where God pleaded for his followers to follow him but did not force them to do so and even sent then into exile for not following. Read where God wanted them to look to him but they insisted on a King as with the rest of the world and God granted it. God does not force his will on us he states his will and calls and waits for us to answer the call. The same today as was then. God wants all to come and has sent the call but knows all will not come.
So He wants none to perish, but does not force His will, and yet by His will none come to the Son unless drawn by the Father and none return to the Father unless saved by the Son?

Those conditions are not a force of will?

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." -John12:32

There is no "unless" you are drawn, He said he draws all people to Himself.

He is, has been and always will be until the last day drawing all people to Himself....ALL PEOPLE!

Not that He chooses certain individuals to draw to Himself and resists others.
Many by choice simply reject the calling that He has made to ALL people.

I will draw all men to me
;
which is not to be understood of the concourse of people about him, when on the cross, some for him, and others against him, some to bewail him, and others to reproach him; but rather of the gathering of the elect to him, and in him, as their head and representative, when he was crucified for them; or of the collection of them, through the ministry of the apostles, and of their being brought to believe on him for eternal life and salvation: and this drawing of them to him, in consequence of his death, supposes distance from him, want of power, and will, to came to him, and the efficacious grace of God to bring them, though without any force and compulsion; and this is to be understood not of every individual of human nature; for all are not drawn to Christ, or enabled to come to him, and believe in him.

From John Gill's Exposition of the Bible relating to John 12:32

I see your problem now my friend and I can only give you one last piece of advice.

Begin to listen to God and His Word instead of John Gill.  Whoever that is.
Well, "my friend", I'm not listening to John Gill, and don't have a clue who he is. I'm posting an opinion that is contrary to yours. And since I shouldn't listen to John Gill (by your "advice"), should I listen to you or anyone else?

I have posted His Word with questions. I am trying to resolve an issue, and have reached out for resolution. It everything is simply waiting for an answer directly from our Lord I would say there would be little demand for this or any other forum.

crowcamp

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #164 on: Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 18:43:44 »
Or any demand for churches, ministers, pastors, friends, etc, etc........................

crowcamp

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #165 on: Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 18:49:24 »
Quote
As a further complication, this was given to me for consideration:

If "The Bible says that it is God's will that all come to Him and that NO ONE perish!!"
(taken from one of your previous posts, Lively), then does He not have the power to assure no one perishes? What can or cannot He do if that is His will?

The bible answers this also. Just read the Old Testament where God pleaded for his followers to follow him but did not force them to do so and even sent then into exile for not following. Read where God wanted them to look to him but they insisted on a King as with the rest of the world and God granted it. God does not force his will on us he states his will and calls and waits for us to answer the call. The same today as was then. God wants all to come and has sent the call but knows all will not come.
So He wants none to perish, but does not force His will, and yet by His will none come to the Son unless drawn by the Father and none return to the Father unless saved by the Son?

Those conditions are not a force of will?

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." -John12:32

There is no "unless" you are drawn, He said he draws all people to Himself.

He is, has been and always will be until the last day drawing all people to Himself....ALL PEOPLE!

Not that He chooses certain individuals to draw to Himself and resists others.
Many by choice simply reject the calling that He has made to ALL people.

I will draw all men to me
;
which is not to be understood of the concourse of people about him, when on the cross, some for him, and others against him, some to bewail him, and others to reproach him; but rather of the gathering of the elect to him, and in him, as their head and representative, when he was crucified for them; or of the collection of them, through the ministry of the apostles, and of their being brought to believe on him for eternal life and salvation: and this drawing of them to him, in consequence of his death, supposes distance from him, want of power, and will, to came to him, and the efficacious grace of God to bring them, though without any force and compulsion; and this is to be understood not of every individual of human nature; for all are not drawn to Christ, or enabled to come to him, and believe in him.

From John Gill's Exposition of the Bible relating to John 12:32

John Gill was a hard-nosed Calvinist.  It is precisely his version of the Sovereignty of God that is so disastrous to a true understanding of God and the way of salvation.

Now then, he is correct when he says not all are drawn to Christ.  Those who have not heard have not been drawn.  Only God knows how He will deal with them.  However, obviously, you have heard the message, i.e., the gospel of Christ sacrificed on the cross, so then you have been drawn.  He has made the offer.  You have His offer of salvation. It is up to you and you alone to decide if you will be saved.
Agreed, I have been drawn, but then are you saying God does not draw everyone? If so, that conflicts with what others are saying in this thread.

And thanks for letting me know about John Gill. I was looking for an opinion on the passage offered and that's what I found.

Offline ela

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #166 on: Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 18:53:31 »
Quote
As a further complication, this was given to me for consideration:

If "The Bible says that it is God's will that all come to Him and that NO ONE perish!!"
(taken from one of your previous posts, Lively), then does He not have the power to assure no one perishes? What can or cannot He do if that is His will?

The bible answers this also. Just read the Old Testament where God pleaded for his followers to follow him but did not force them to do so and even sent then into exile for not following. Read where God wanted them to look to him but they insisted on a King as with the rest of the world and God granted it. God does not force his will on us he states his will and calls and waits for us to answer the call. The same today as was then. God wants all to come and has sent the call but knows all will not come.
So He wants none to perish, but does not force His will, and yet by His will none come to the Son unless drawn by the Father and none return to the Father unless saved by the Son?

Those conditions are not a force of will?

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." -John12:32

There is no "unless" you are drawn, He said he draws all people to Himself.

He is, has been and always will be until the last day drawing all people to Himself....ALL PEOPLE!

Not that He chooses certain individuals to draw to Himself and resists others.
Many by choice simply reject the calling that He has made to ALL people.

I will draw all men to me
;
which is not to be understood of the concourse of people about him, when on the cross, some for him, and others against him, some to bewail him, and others to reproach him; but rather of the gathering of the elect to him, and in him, as their head and representative, when he was crucified for them; or of the collection of them, through the ministry of the apostles, and of their being brought to believe on him for eternal life and salvation: and this drawing of them to him, in consequence of his death, supposes distance from him, want of power, and will, to came to him, and the efficacious grace of God to bring them, though without any force and compulsion; and this is to be understood not of every individual of human nature; for all are not drawn to Christ, or enabled to come to him, and believe in him.

From John Gill's Exposition of the Bible relating to John 12:32

John Gill was a hard-nosed Calvinist.  It is precisely his version of the Sovereignty of God that is so disastrous to a true understanding of God and the way of salvation.

Now then, he is correct when he says not all are drawn to Christ.  Those who have not heard have not been drawn.  Only God knows how He will deal with them.  However, obviously, you have heard the message, i.e., the gospel of Christ sacrificed on the cross, so then you have been drawn.  He has made the offer.  You have His offer of salvation. It is up to you and you alone to decide if you will be saved.

"But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who push the truth away from themselves. For the truth about God is manifest in them. God has put this knowledge in their hearts.....So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God." Rom. 1:18-20

Yes, He actually DOES draw ALL men. He has been faithful and diligent to endeavor to make us His children from everyside possible, save ONE.... He does not, unfortunately, "always get what He wants" (Lively:) as He has chosen to give EACH a choice.

crowcamp

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #167 on: Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 19:00:08 »
Quote
As a further complication, this was given to me for consideration:

If "The Bible says that it is God's will that all come to Him and that NO ONE perish!!"
(taken from one of your previous posts, Lively), then does He not have the power to assure no one perishes? What can or cannot He do if that is His will?

The bible answers this also. Just read the Old Testament where God pleaded for his followers to follow him but did not force them to do so and even sent then into exile for not following. Read where God wanted them to look to him but they insisted on a King as with the rest of the world and God granted it. God does not force his will on us he states his will and calls and waits for us to answer the call. The same today as was then. God wants all to come and has sent the call but knows all will not come.
So He wants none to perish, but does not force His will, and yet by His will none come to the Son unless drawn by the Father and none return to the Father unless saved by the Son?

Those conditions are not a force of will?

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." -John12:32

There is no "unless" you are drawn, He said he draws all people to Himself.

He is, has been and always will be until the last day drawing all people to Himself....ALL PEOPLE!

Not that He chooses certain individuals to draw to Himself and resists others.
Many by choice simply reject the calling that He has made to ALL people.

I will draw all men to me
;
which is not to be understood of the concourse of people about him, when on the cross, some for him, and others against him, some to bewail him, and others to reproach him; but rather of the gathering of the elect to him, and in him, as their head and representative, when he was crucified for them; or of the collection of them, through the ministry of the apostles, and of their being brought to believe on him for eternal life and salvation: and this drawing of them to him, in consequence of his death, supposes distance from him, want of power, and will, to came to him, and the efficacious grace of God to bring them, though without any force and compulsion; and this is to be understood not of every individual of human nature; for all are not drawn to Christ, or enabled to come to him, and believe in him.

From John Gill's Exposition of the Bible relating to John 12:32

John Gill was a hard-nosed Calvinist.  It is precisely his version of the Sovereignty of God that is so disastrous to a true understanding of God and the way of salvation.

Now then, he is correct when he says not all are drawn to Christ.  Those who have not heard have not been drawn.  Only God knows how He will deal with them.  However, obviously, you have heard the message, i.e., the gospel of Christ sacrificed on the cross, so then you have been drawn.  He has made the offer.  You have His offer of salvation. It is up to you and you alone to decide if you will be saved.

"But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who push the truth away from themselves. For the truth about God is manifest in them. God has put this knowledge in their hearts.....So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God." Rom. 1:18-20

Yes, He actually DOES draw ALL men. He has been faithful and diligent to endeavor to make us His children from everyside possible, save ONE.... He does not, unfortunately, "always get what He wants" (Lively:) as He has chosen to give EACH a choice.

So you and jimmy are in disagreement, and you and lively are in agreement.

And I am still confused. ::doh::

Offline ela

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #168 on: Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 19:45:02 »
Quote
As a further complication, this was given to me for consideration:

If "The Bible says that it is God's will that all come to Him and that NO ONE perish!!"
(taken from one of your previous posts, Lively), then does He not have the power to assure no one perishes? What can or cannot He do if that is His will?

The bible answers this also. Just read the Old Testament where God pleaded for his followers to follow him but did not force them to do so and even sent then into exile for not following. Read where God wanted them to look to him but they insisted on a King as with the rest of the world and God granted it. God does not force his will on us he states his will and calls and waits for us to answer the call. The same today as was then. God wants all to come and has sent the call but knows all will not come.
So He wants none to perish, but does not force His will, and yet by His will none come to the Son unless drawn by the Father and none return to the Father unless saved by the Son?

Those conditions are not a force of will?

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." -John12:32

There is no "unless" you are drawn, He said he draws all people to Himself.

He is, has been and always will be until the last day drawing all people to Himself....ALL PEOPLE!

Not that He chooses certain individuals to draw to Himself and resists others.
Many by choice simply reject the calling that He has made to ALL people.

I will draw all men to me
;
which is not to be understood of the concourse of people about him, when on the cross, some for him, and others against him, some to bewail him, and others to reproach him; but rather of the gathering of the elect to him, and in him, as their head and representative, when he was crucified for them; or of the collection of them, through the ministry of the apostles, and of their being brought to believe on him for eternal life and salvation: and this drawing of them to him, in consequence of his death, supposes distance from him, want of power, and will, to came to him, and the efficacious grace of God to bring them, though without any force and compulsion; and this is to be understood not of every individual of human nature; for all are not drawn to Christ, or enabled to come to him, and believe in him.

From John Gill's Exposition of the Bible relating to John 12:32

John Gill was a hard-nosed Calvinist.  It is precisely his version of the Sovereignty of God that is so disastrous to a true understanding of God and the way of salvation.

Now then, he is correct when he says not all are drawn to Christ.  Those who have not heard have not been drawn.  Only God knows how He will deal with them.  However, obviously, you have heard the message, i.e., the gospel of Christ sacrificed on the cross, so then you have been drawn.  He has made the offer.  You have His offer of salvation. It is up to you and you alone to decide if you will be saved.

"But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who push the truth away from themselves. For the truth about God is manifest in them. God has put this knowledge in their hearts.....So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God." Rom. 1:18-20

Yes, He actually DOES draw ALL men. He has been faithful and diligent to endeavor to make us His children from everyside possible, save ONE.... He does not, unfortunately, "always get what He wants" (Lively:) as He has chosen to give EACH a choice.

So you and jimmy are in disagreement, and you and lively are in agreement.

And I am still confused. ::doh::

I am not trying to be in disagreement with anyone....I was merely chiming in with verses he might have overlooked. If you read the verses I stated, you'll see that God has always been drawing His creation back to Himself....but we keep rebelling....which is the reason for Christ coming, to be the ultimate sacrifice.

crowcamp

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #169 on: Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 19:54:16 »
Quote
As a further complication, this was given to me for consideration:

If "The Bible says that it is God's will that all come to Him and that NO ONE perish!!"
(taken from one of your previous posts, Lively), then does He not have the power to assure no one perishes? What can or cannot He do if that is His will?

The bible answers this also. Just read the Old Testament where God pleaded for his followers to follow him but did not force them to do so and even sent then into exile for not following. Read where God wanted them to look to him but they insisted on a King as with the rest of the world and God granted it. God does not force his will on us he states his will and calls and waits for us to answer the call. The same today as was then. God wants all to come and has sent the call but knows all will not come.
So He wants none to perish, but does not force His will, and yet by His will none come to the Son unless drawn by the Father and none return to the Father unless saved by the Son?

Those conditions are not a force of will?

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." -John12:32

There is no "unless" you are drawn, He said he draws all people to Himself.

He is, has been and always will be until the last day drawing all people to Himself....ALL PEOPLE!

Not that He chooses certain individuals to draw to Himself and resists others.
Many by choice simply reject the calling that He has made to ALL people.

I will draw all men to me
;
which is not to be understood of the concourse of people about him, when on the cross, some for him, and others against him, some to bewail him, and others to reproach him; but rather of the gathering of the elect to him, and in him, as their head and representative, when he was crucified for them; or of the collection of them, through the ministry of the apostles, and of their being brought to believe on him for eternal life and salvation: and this drawing of them to him, in consequence of his death, supposes distance from him, want of power, and will, to came to him, and the efficacious grace of God to bring them, though without any force and compulsion; and this is to be understood not of every individual of human nature; for all are not drawn to Christ, or enabled to come to him, and believe in him.

From John Gill's Exposition of the Bible relating to John 12:32

John Gill was a hard-nosed Calvinist.  It is precisely his version of the Sovereignty of God that is so disastrous to a true understanding of God and the way of salvation.

Now then, he is correct when he says not all are drawn to Christ.  Those who have not heard have not been drawn.  Only God knows how He will deal with them.  However, obviously, you have heard the message, i.e., the gospel of Christ sacrificed on the cross, so then you have been drawn.  He has made the offer.  You have His offer of salvation. It is up to you and you alone to decide if you will be saved.

"But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who push the truth away from themselves. For the truth about God is manifest in them. God has put this knowledge in their hearts.....So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God." Rom. 1:18-20

Yes, He actually DOES draw ALL men. He has been faithful and diligent to endeavor to make us His children from everyside possible, save ONE.... He does not, unfortunately, "always get what He wants" (Lively:) as He has chosen to give EACH a choice.

So you and jimmy are in disagreement, and you and lively are in agreement.

And I am still confused. ::doh::

I am not trying to be in disagreement with anyone....I was merely chiming in with verses he might have overlooked. If you read the verses I stated, you'll see that God has always been drawing His creation back to Himself....but we keep rebelling....which is the reason for Christ coming, to be the ultimate sacrifice.
I'm not disagreeing with you, ela, but the passages offered in the OP say what they say. And one tells me He draws all while another tells me He doesn't draw all. And the points of view of others outside this forum conflict, also. I feel our Lord compelled me to seek answers and I am not finding them but instead finding much disagreement.

My confusion should be easily understood. The passages are about as clear as they can be and yet even they cause division.

Offline ela

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #170 on: Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 20:00:14 »
If you want to get a hold of me...you know how to do it, and we can talk about it...as trying to reply by typing limits me....

 ::nodding::  ::hug::

crowcamp

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #171 on: Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 20:38:44 »
So, as it seems far too often when discussing the Bible, there are multiple choices on the issue of this thread. I will lay out what I'm getting from the responses to date.

A-All is subject to God's will. He chooses (has chosen) who will be saved and they are saved. And it ain't everyone!

B-Christ died for the sins of the world and all are chosen and saved.

C-Christ died for the sins of the world and all are chosen but only some are saved even though it is God's will that all be saved. Evidently, God does not always get what He wants even though He is Omnipotent.

D-We aren't supposed to understand, are meant to always be in disunity, and heck, it doesn't matter, anyway.

E- None of the above, or all of the above; or you can just take the one that sits best with you personally.

Offline Jaime

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #172 on: Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 21:04:24 »
Crow, I will just offer that when there seems to be conflict between 2 or more scriptures, it is US that have misinterpretted one or all of the scriptures. God is not the author of confusion. We may interpret confusion or conflict, but it is our fault. I tend to believe that if one scripture stands out as out of place with others, it is my understanding of the one or the others that is the problem.

In the case of does evangelism matter if God does the chosing, I would ask myself did Jesus misunderstand when he gave the disciples the great commission, since it is inconsistent with the verses of your OP? I would tend to look at my understanding of your OP verses, rather than trying to make the rest of the entire bible fit those two verses. Could be the wrong approach, but that's how I approach apparent conflicts in scripture. And there are quite a few "apparent" conflicts.

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #173 on: Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 21:10:21 »
The answer to your discussions can be found in several passages.

The man born blind & the symbolic potter who makes always the most noble pot possible out of the clay.

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Re: Can't get there from here?
« Reply #174 on: Thu Sep 01, 2011 - 21:14:32 »
The answer to your discussions can be found in several passages.

The man born blind & the symbolic potter who makes always the most noble pot possible out of the clay.
Please offer those passages.