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Offline anthony57

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Did Jesus teach the Tulip ?
« on: March 23, 2010, 07:50:05 AM »
The acronym Tulip has been given a horrible reputation and being taught that its a man made doctrine, by one named John Calvin.

But what I want to examine briefly is if Jesus christ himself taught these truthes of tulip..

T=Total Depravity, this describes mans corrupt nature and inability to please God or come to him [Jesus christ] in faith [believe] on him..

Jesus says in jn 6:

44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The word can is the greek word dunimai and means:

to be able, have power whether by virtue of one's own ability and resources, or of a state of mind, or through favourable circumstances, or by permission of law or custom

2) to be able to do something

3) to be capable, strong and powerful



So Jesus affirms mans inability to come to him in belief..

Jn 6:

But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Jesus said in Jn 12:

37But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:

38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.



man cannot believe in christ, they have not the ability..

man loves sin and darkness Jesus said jn 3:

19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

because of this, what we are by nature, the flesh, Jesus says this jn 3:

3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

 4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

without newbirth Jesus says we are Just flesh..

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

being in the flesh man cannot please God..rom 8:

8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.



Next, U for unconditional election lk at jn 6:

37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out

17:

2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.



The elect were given to christ in election before the world began 2 tim 1:

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

eph 1:

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

We were in him because God gave us to him as a spiritual seed. isa 53:

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Jesus said jn15:

16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

and matt 22:

14For many are called, but few are chosen.

Next Limited or particular atonement ? Jesus says jn 10:

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

jn 17:

19And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

matt 15:

24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

matt 26:

28For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Many of his sermons conveyed the Limited or restricted nature of His saving healing Ministry..lk 4:

24And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.

25But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;

26But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.

27And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.

28And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,

Next the I for irresistable grace or effectual call..jn 12:

32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

men is not in the original, supplied by the translators..so it would read, will draw all to me..what all ? Jn 6:

37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

all the elect, all them of both jew and greek who was given to him..jn 12:

20And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast:

jn 10:

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The P as to perseverance or preservation of the sheep or saints Jn 10:

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

jn 6:

44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

So there you have it..Jesus taught these truthes of Tulip, even before calvin was born..

so I reject the slander of those who say that tulip is not taugt in the bible, that Jesus did not teach it..

This will no doubt be attacked by the haters of truth, but nevertheless, truth will be established..





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Did Jesus teach the Tulip ?
« on: March 23, 2010, 07:50:05 AM »

Offline pointmade

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Re: Did Jesus teach the Tulip ?
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2010, 01:57:43 PM »
Anthony: "So there you have it..Jesus taught these truthes of Tulip, even before calvin was born..

so I reject the slander of those who say that tulip is not taugt in the bible, that Jesus did not teach it..

This will no doubt be attacked by the haters of truth, but nevertheless, truth will be established..

I reject it......"All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

The key to the position of Calvin and others who have followed his teachings is that man does not have freedom of the will. Lack of freedom of the will has to be maintained to hold to the conclusion of Calvin on salvation Some contend that Calvin's interpretation of Romans 9 led him to this position. He applied it to individual salvation instead of seeing it as Paul's discussion of God dealing with national Israel and the inclusion of the Gentilse into the family of God. This led him to interpret the clay in the hands of the potter as God, according to His will, choosing or casting aside individuals in regard to salvation. This position was then imposed upon other passages in his interpretation.

The key concept to Calvinism is that regeneration MUST precede faith. But a Bible verse that specifically refutes this idea is Colossians 2:12, which shows instead that FAITH PRECEDES REGENERATION. God's call to grace goes out to all, its power impacts all, and the Holy Spirit urges all to accept it. The call to grace is thus universal, but it is also resistible. See especially Romans 10:17 in context, and John 12:32 in reference to John 6:44.

The very nature of evangelism in the early church speaks against the doctrine of Unconditional Election. Time and again we see the same consistent pattern in the biblical history of the earl church. The hearers of the gospel are said to receive and accept the message that is presented. The response is described as their reaction (free choice) or the result of what they heard or witnessed.  Note Acts 2:41; 13:12; 14:21; 16:34; 17:11,12; 17:34.

The sum total of this evidence leads one to conclude that the gospel is presented to the unbeliever in an attempt to convince him to choose the path of salvation and the way of faith. The gospel messenger reasons, preaches, disputes, quotes Scripture and ultimately calls upon his hearer to make a decision based upon the evidence which has been presented......"That whosoever believes in him should not parish, but have eternal life."



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Re: Did Jesus teach the Tulip ?
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2010, 01:57:43 PM »

Offline anthony57

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Re: Did Jesus teach the Tulip ?
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2010, 02:16:30 AM »
Anthony: "So there you have it..Jesus taught these truthes of Tulip, even before calvin was born..

so I reject the slander of those who say that tulip is not taugt in the bible, that Jesus did not teach it..

This will no doubt be attacked by the haters of truth, but nevertheless, truth will be established..

I reject it......"All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

The key to the position of Calvin and others who have followed his teachings is that man does not have freedom of the will. Lack of freedom of the will has to be maintained to hold to the conclusion of Calvin on salvation Some contend that Calvin's interpretation of Romans 9 led him to this position. He applied it to individual salvation instead of seeing it as Paul's discussion of God dealing with national Israel and the inclusion of the Gentilse into the family of God. This led him to interpret the clay in the hands of the potter as God, according to His will, choosing or casting aside individuals in regard to salvation. This position was then imposed upon other passages in his interpretation.

The key concept to Calvinism is that regeneration MUST precede faith. But a Bible verse that specifically refutes this idea is Colossians 2:12, which shows instead that FAITH PRECEDES REGENERATION. God's call to grace goes out to all, its power impacts all, and the Holy Spirit urges all to accept it. The call to grace is thus universal, but it is also resistible. See especially Romans 10:17 in context, and John 12:32 in reference to John 6:44.

The very nature of evangelism in the early church speaks against the doctrine of Unconditional Election. Time and again we see the same consistent pattern in the biblical history of the earl church. The hearers of the gospel are said to receive and accept the message that is presented. The response is described as their reaction (free choice) or the result of what they heard or witnessed.  Note Acts 2:41; 13:12; 14:21; 16:34; 17:11,12; 17:34.

The sum total of this evidence leads one to conclude that the gospel is presented to the unbeliever in an attempt to convince him to choose the path of salvation and the way of faith. The gospel messenger reasons, preaches, disputes, quotes Scripture and ultimately calls upon his hearer to make a decision based upon the evidence which has been presented......"That whosoever believes in him should not parish, but have eternal life."




It appears you dont agree with Jesus.

Offline pointmade

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Re: Did Jesus teach the Tulip ?
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2010, 06:47:20 AM »
Anthony: "It appears you dont agree with Jesus."

Oh yes,......I believe with Jesus' words in Mark 16:16, "He that believes and is baptized SHALL BE SAVED, he that believes not shall be damned."

Where you and I will differ: you "feel" you are saved  by a miraculous "experience" a "subjective feeling," as did  Augustine, the "Reformers,"  Luther,  Zwingli,  Jimmy Swaggart, etc. I use Jimmy with tongue in cheek Anthony...I'm sure you know his story.

I trust in the words of Jesus, all His words, both red and black....The only Jesus I know comes clothed in "apostolic doctrine" (Acts 2:42). I wasn't at the cross and neither were you...You, like I, have to believe "through their word" (John 17:20) which is the only verse in the Gospels that informs man HOW Jesus has instructed him/her to BELIEVE on Him.

Now, take another look at Mark 16:16 and note the first "promise" in the New Testament (Heb. 9:14-18) as delivered by an apostle (Acts 2:38-39). A "promise" by the Holy Spirit will trump a subjective "feeling" by men. An ontological truth that all men must deal with.

By the way, what is your understanding of Jesus' words in John, 20:21-23?


 
 
 

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Re: Did Jesus teach the Tulip ?
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2010, 06:47:20 AM »

Offline anthony57

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Re: Did Jesus teach the Tulip ?
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2010, 07:57:33 AM »
pointmade:

Quote
Anthony: "It appears you dont agree with Jesus."

It appears that you dont, I gave you scripture of what He said.

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Re: Did Jesus teach the Tulip ?
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2010, 07:57:33 AM »



Offline pointmade

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Re: Did Jesus teach the Tulip ?
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2010, 10:08:20 AM »
Anthony: "It appears that you dont, I gave you scripture of what He said."

And, it appears that you do not want to talk about His words in Mark 16:16. Is it because you have not been "baptized into Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38)? You are aware that those words spoken by the inspired apostle Peter at Pentecost, are the words of Jesus?
John Calvin's theory of "sovereign grace" does not usurp Peter's words.

Offline anthony57

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Re: Did Jesus teach the Tulip ?
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2010, 09:05:57 PM »
pointe:

Quote
Anthony: "It appears that you dont, I gave you scripture of what He said."

It appears you dont, I gave you scripture of what He said.

Offline anthony57

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Re: Did Jesus teach the Tulip ?
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2010, 09:07:34 PM »
Many today have limited the Gospel of Jesus Christ to just those portions of Holy writ that specifically says the gospel i.e 1 cor 15:

1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Gal 3:

8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed

but that is a mistake, yes those portions are indeed Gospel Truth, but they are not exclusively all that the gospel teaches. The Gospel of Jesus Christ or the Kingdom, is also the doctrinal Truths that we find in books of the bible like romans [chpt 1-11] and Ephesians, the first three chapters, for these are just as much as the gospel of Jesus Christ as 1 cor 15:1-4.

The mistake that many have made is that, they believe those doctrinal truths in those chapters were something new to the recipients, but they were not, for they were actually having the Gospel truths they had heard and received before, reiterated, or rehearsed again.


Thos letters were to strengthen and confirm them in what Gospel Truth they had previously heard.

Acts 14:


21And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch,

22Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Acts 18:32

And after he had spent some time there, he departed, and went over all the country of Galatia and Phrygia in order, strengthening all the disciples.

And so that was the reason for many of the letters or epistles, such as eph.

Lets look at eph 1 and see some of the Gospel Truth that Paul preached.

eph 1:


3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love

The Gospel Paul preached to Ephesus proclaimed : That the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, has chosen a people for Himself.

And secondly, that He chose them before the foundation of the world was laid.

next, That He chose them that they should be Holy and without blame before Him in Love.

Next:


5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, [When He chose us in Him]according to the good pleasure of his will,

6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

In these few verses, Paul rehearses His Gospel and states:

Election or being chosen in Christ

The early date of this choice

The goal or purpose of this choice, to be holy and without blame before Him in Love.

The predestination of them chosen, and what they had been predestined to,

And that they had been made accepted to God, in the Beloved.

Now is not that good news ?





Offline pointmade

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Re: Did Jesus teach the Tulip ?
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2010, 06:30:35 AM »
Anthony: "Now is not that good news ?"

I suppose so, IF you have been "predestine" as you teach. You still have not explained Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38; 22:16. Here, souls had to made a cognizant choice. I know these verses do not fit into you theory of election. Are you saying these verses: Acts: 2:41; 13:12; 14:21; 16:34; 17:11, 12; 17:34 were NOT predestine to be in the Bible?

Many of the verses you have quoted are clarified when understood that the passage deals with the CHOICE of an individual for service NOT for salvation.
Most notably the section in Paul's letter to the Romans, chapter 9-11 falls into this category. God know in advance who will love Him and follow.  It is no difficulty to understand Jesus being entrusted with those persons that God foreknows will choose to follow Him. This is something far different from those individuals being eternally destined to follow  with no choice of their own. This same understanding can be applied to passages that speak of people being appointed to eternal life and salvation (e.g. Acts 13:48; 1 Thes. 5:9.

You still have not told me how you KNOW that you are among the "elect."


Offline anthony57

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Re: Did Jesus teach the Tulip ?
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2010, 09:08:16 AM »
point:

Quote
You still have not told me how you KNOW that you are among the "elect."

This topic is not about me, its about that Jesus christ taught the Truthes of Tulip, which I have proven and yet you do not believe .

Offline canuck

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Re: Did Jesus teach the Tulip ?
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2010, 12:09:12 PM »
Anthony: "So there you have it..Jesus taught these truthes of Tulip, even before calvin was born..

so I reject the slander of those who say that tulip is not taugt in the bible, that Jesus did not teach it..

This will no doubt be attacked by the haters of truth, but nevertheless, truth will be established..

I reject it......"All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

The key to the position of Calvin and others who have followed his teachings is that man does not have freedom of the will. Lack of freedom of the will has to be maintained to hold to the conclusion of Calvin on salvation Some contend that Calvin's interpretation of Romans 9 led him to this position. He applied it to individual salvation instead of seeing it as Paul's discussion of God dealing with national Israel and the inclusion of the Gentilse into the family of God. This led him to interpret the clay in the hands of the potter as God, according to His will, choosing or casting aside individuals in regard to salvation. This position was then imposed upon other passages in his interpretation.
...
The key concept to Calvinism is that regeneration MUST precede faith. But a Bible verse that specifically refutes this idea is Colossians 2:12, which shows instead that FAITH PRECEDES REGENERATION. God's call to grace goes out to all, its power impacts all, and the Holy Spirit urges all to accept it. The call to grace is thus universal, but it is also resistible. See especially Romans 10:17 in context, and John 12:32 in reference to John 6:44.



I do not see from Col. 2:12 that there is any conclusive proof that faith precedes regeneration. It only speaks about the raising up of redeemed sinners through the faith of the operation of God. It would of course, depend on what one deems to be "regeneration."

Most of the 17th C. English Puritan writers took great pains to show that regeneration is the work of the Holy Spirit in bringing men to faith in Jesus Christ as opposed to His work of sanctifying them after the fact. That " washing of regeneration " as per Tit. 3:5 could encompass conviction of sin that evidences guilt for having offended a holy God (not merely a guilty conscience), repentance toward God that reflects a godly sorrow for past sin, and ultimately, faith in Jesus Christ that saves. It is all about spiritual renewal.

That the Holy Spirit works to bring sinners to Christ by drawing them to God , convicting etc. should be sufficient to conclude that the work of regeneration not only deals with the indwelling aspects of the Spirit of God at conversion but also His work of extending effectual grace in preparing the sinner to raise the white flag of surrender .

canuck

Offline pointmade

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Re: Did Jesus teach the Tulip ?
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2010, 02:37:04 PM »
Cancuck: "I do not see from Col. 2:12 that there is any conclusive proof that faith precedes regeneration. It only speaks about the raising up of redeemed sinners through the faith of the operation of God. It would of course, depend on what one deems to be "regeneration."

Then you are saying that "faith is an infused operation" by God. We can scratch then Roman 10:17 where Paul writes, Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." If not, why "go teach and make disciples" if this is the "job" of the holy Spirit.

You write: "That the Holy Spirit works to bring sinners to Christ by drawing them to God , convicting etc. should be sufficient to conclude that the work of regeneration not only deals with the indwelling aspects of the Spirit of God at conversion but also His work of extending effectual grace in preparing the sinner to raise the white flag of surrender."

If the Word of God does not "convict" than the New Testament is a dead letter as Catholicism and Protestantism exemplify in their teaching. Catholicism by "traditions" and Protestantism by "experience" or "feelings."
If the Holy Spirit is to convict why dose the Word teach in Acts 2 of the Holy Spirit convicting the first Christians at Pentecost? Oh, I forgot, verse 14 is not in your Bible.
What was it Peter said to Cornelius in Acts 11:33? Oh, your Bible does not have "to HEAR all things that are commanded you of God." When you were "saved" did the Holy Spirit fall on you as it did Peter "in the beginning" (Acts 11:15)? If not, why not? How man different "tongues" do you speak?

You need to take another look at Colossians 2:12 in context. "Raised with him" (sunegeiro) refers to regeneration. See Col. 2:13 (suzopoieo, "made alive"); Eph. 2:5-6 (suzopoieo, sunegeiro. "Through faith" clearly shows that faith is not produced by regeneration, but is instead a precondition for regeneration. Faith is OUR choice; regeneration is God's work as conditional upon the choice.  Paul words this differently in Romans 6:3. "Know you not that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ was baptized into his death? (In the pronoun "us," Paul is including himself). Therefore we are buried with him by baptism unto death by the character of the Father even so we also walk in a newness of life."

The only way one would know this of this "mystery" is revealed through the New Testament. "Whereby, when you read you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Jesus Christ." (Eph. 3:4). Oh, I forgot, you need not "read to understand," you have been unconditionally elected, or "regenerated." By the way, what is your proof of this "regeneration"? Let me guess...you have this feeling? heard a voice? saw a vision? received an email? I suspect subconscious feed back....

 

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Re: Did Jesus teach the Tulip ?
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2010, 10:53:57 PM »
point:

Quote
You still have not told me how you KNOW that you are among the "elect."

This topic is not about me, its about that Jesus christ taught the Truthes of Tulip, which I have proven and yet you do not believe .

Please explain where these verses fit in TULIP:

John 15
10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

Matt 7:21
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

John 6
 53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Matt 25
 44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
 45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Matt 25
 23"His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'

Luke 12
 47"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
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Offline marc

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Re: Did Jesus teach the Tulip ?
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2010, 11:05:30 PM »
I think that Calvinism is the result of a combination of misunderstanding idioms and missing the point of the book of John.

First, the idea that a dead man can do nothing is absurd, taking a metaphor and stretching it to cover things it was never intended to relate to. Of course man is capable of doing good without being regenerated first. No man lives who has never done good.

Second, I love the gospel of John, but admit that it is a bit dense at points. In my more recent studies, i have come to believe that John's main point, emphasizing Jesus' identification with the Father, has been misunderstood, and that relationship has been misidentified as the father/convert relationship. It's too late and I'm too Lortabbed to explain what i mean in detail right now. maybe tomorrow.
Never lose an opportunity of seeing anything beautiful, for beauty is God's handwriting.
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'where God tears great gaps we should not try to fill them with human words. They should remain open'   D Bonhoeffer.

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Offline pointmade

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Re: Did Jesus teach the Tulip ?
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2010, 07:51:34 AM »
"I think that Calvinism is the result of a combination of misunderstanding idioms and missing the point of the book of John"

Especially chapters 13-17. Here, Jesus is speaking directly to the men who had been with him "from the beginning" (15-27). This leaves out all the "spirit filled" men/women I know who claim this promise in John  16:13 or 14:14.