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Offline gospel

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Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« on: Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 14:46:30 »


Genesis 15:13 Then the LORD said to him, "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated four hundred years.[/color]


Was this not pre-destiny? People who had not yet even been born were destined for slavery

True of False?

5Joseph had a dream, and when he told it to his brothers, they hated him all the more. 6He said to them, “Listen to this dream I had: 7We were binding sheaves of grain out in the field when suddenly my sheaf rose and stood upright, while your sheaves gathered around mine and bowed down to it.

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Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« on: Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 14:46:30 »

Offline Joyfullee

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #1 on: Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 15:10:29 »
What I see is that God saw the end at the beginning and He weaves His will among the choices that individuals make.

Blessings


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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #1 on: Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 15:10:29 »

Offline gospel

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #2 on: Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 15:38:04 »
What I see is that God saw the end at the beginning and He weaves His will among the choices that individuals make.

Blessings



Clearly somehow, God being God He is able to state what will occur and who will do what at a given time according to His own plans

Yet somehow Calvin gets the credit for that!

Offline Joyfullee

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #3 on: Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 16:17:17 »
What I see is that God saw the end at the beginning and He weaves His will among the choices that individuals make.

Blessings



Clearly somehow, God being God He is able to state what will occur and who will do what at a given time according to His own plans

Yet somehow Calvin gets the credit for that!

....and you can go a step farther and state that since He knows everything He could tell us at any given time what anybody is going to say or even what they are thinking as well as what is in their hearts...and it doesn't have to be according to His own plans.

Don't have a clue what you mean by your second statement gospel.

Blessings


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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #3 on: Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 16:17:17 »

Offline gospel

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #4 on: Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 17:30:34 »
What I see is that God saw the end at the beginning and He weaves His will among the choices that individuals make.

Blessings



Clearly somehow, God being God He is able to state what will occur and who will do what at a given time according to His own plans

Yet somehow Calvin gets the credit for that!

....and you can go a step farther and state that since He knows everything He could tell us at any given time what anybody is going to say or even what they are thinking as well as what is in their hearts...and it doesn't have to be according to His own plans.

Don't have a clue what you mean by your second statement gospel.

Blessings



My 2nd statement refers to the practice of some people defining and labeling these ways of God as Calvinism


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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #4 on: Fri Sep 02, 2011 - 17:30:34 »



p.rehbein

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #5 on: Sat Sep 03, 2011 - 07:08:34 »
What I see is that God saw the end at the beginning and He weaves His will among the choices that individuals make.

Blessings



Clearly somehow, God being God He is able to state what will occur and who will do what at a given time according to His own plans

Yet somehow Calvin gets the credit for that!

I don't see that Calvin gets the credit at all.  No more than any of the Apostles got credit for their preaching/teaching of the Gospel of Jesus.  Calvin had some differences with the Catholic Church and began teaching a new theology, but if you read his writings, he surely ALWAYS credited God (the Holy Spirit) for everything.  I supose Wesley could be put in this same boat.  

Can't blame Calvin for what other people say or how they view his writings.  He has his supporters and his detractors much like any other person who preaches/teaches the Gospel of Jesus Christ as they believe they have been led to do.  I don't see any reason to even be concerned that some person would refer to his views as Calvinism.............people do that with Wesley as well.


Zane Dow

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #6 on: Fri Sep 09, 2011 - 14:06:25 »
God predestinated those that are His and those who are not.

Offline Gomer

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #7 on: Fri Sep 09, 2011 - 14:14:32 »
The Bible teaches predestination but I do not agree with the Calvinistic idea of predestination that God unconditionally chose certain individuals to salvation.  Before the world began, God foreknew and predestined a class or group (that would later be called Christians) and anyone that obeys the gospel of Christ and becomes a Christian is added to that predestined group.

Faith.Man

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #8 on: Sun May 20, 2012 - 17:58:41 »


Genesis 15:13 Then the LORD said to him, "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated four hundred years.[/color]


Was this not pre-destiny? People who had not yet even been born were destined for slavery

True of False?

5Joseph had a dream, and when he told it to his brothers, they hated him all the more. 6He said to them, “Listen to this dream I had: 7We were binding sheaves of grain out in the field when suddenly my sheaf rose and stood upright, while your sheaves gathered around mine and bowed down to it.

HRoberson

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #9 on: Mon May 21, 2012 - 20:54:41 »
God has predestined that the Gentiles will be included; he has chosen Israel.

He does not select individuals who he has already decided not to save.

Some ancient Middle Eastern text says that God wants all men to be saved. Seems kind of odd if He knows He's already condemned most of them.

Faith.Man

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #10 on: Tue May 22, 2012 - 18:47:19 »
Romans 8:29 - For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
 
Romans 8:30 - And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5 - he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

Ephesians 1:11 - In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,  [NIV]


It is clear from Holy Scripture that election is on an individual basis, not corporately applied.

HRoberson

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #11 on: Wed May 30, 2012 - 21:00:54 »
Actually, no.

The point of both Romans and Ephesians is that the people of God are composed of every nation. It is not that God has picked Paul but prevented someone else from being saved.

Because the offer of salvation is universal, we can speak of it as personal to some degree. Because we are either Jews or Gentiles, we have been predestined to enter the kingdom as member of those peoples who set our minds on things of God.

Paul's point in Romans is that it has always been the plan of God to recreate His people from all the peoples of the world - all are welcome.

It is not Paul's intent to suggest that God has individually prevented specific individuals from being saved. To make that his point is to wrench his letters from their context.

Faith.Man

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #12 on: Wed May 30, 2012 - 21:32:57 »
Actually, no.

The point of both Romans and Ephesians is that the people of God are composed of every nation. It is not that God has picked Paul but prevented someone else from being saved.

Because the offer of salvation is universal, we can speak of it as personal to some degree. Because we are either Jews or Gentiles, we have been predestined to enter the kingdom as member of those peoples who set our minds on things of God.

Paul's point in Romans is that it has always been the plan of God to recreate His people from all the peoples of the world - all are welcome.

It is not Paul's intent to suggest that God has individually prevented specific individuals from being saved. To make that his point is to wrench his letters from their context.
So you do not believe God is sovereign.  Romans and Ephesians are written for individuals, not corporate bodies.  Read the scriptures I quoted again.

Offline Bitter Sweet

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #13 on: Thu May 31, 2012 - 07:51:53 »


Genesis 15:13 Then the LORD said to him, "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated four hundred years.[/color]


Was this not pre-destiny? People who had not yet even been born were destined for slavery

True of False?
Your thoughts?  ::shrug::


It's true. When my ancestors moved into a new country in the early 1300's, the Ottoman Empire took over and they were slaves and mistreated for hundreds of years.

Thank God I was born into the new world.

Offline gbzone

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #14 on: Wed Jun 06, 2012 - 03:29:51 »
"Every seed will bring forth fruit after its own kind"

What then shall I liken  the kingdom of God?

Its is like a sower who went to sow.

It is like a good amn who sowed good sed in his feild but while men slept his enmey came and sowed tares.

"I will put emnity between thy  seed(the serpent) and the seed of the woman"

It is not so much our successes  but of what SORT are we?

Even the weeds rejoice over the sun and the rain.

I will pour out my spirit upon ALL flesh.

I dont think we / the church  know Him who "is from the begining" We have but just" heard of him"

in Christ

gerald

Faith.Man

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #15 on: Fri Jun 08, 2012 - 19:25:32 »
"Every seed will bring forth fruit after its own kind"

What then shall I liken  the kingdom of God?

Its is like a sower who went to sow.

It is like a good amn who sowed good sed in his feild but while men slept his enmey came and sowed tares.

"I will put emnity between thy  seed(the serpent) and the seed of the woman"

It is not so much our successes  but of what SORT are we?

Even the weeds rejoice over the sun and the rain.

I will pour out my spirit upon ALL flesh.

I dont think we / the church  know Him who "is from the begining" We have but just" heard of him"

in Christ

gerald
This is an obvious attempt to link scripture passages taken out of context to prove who knows what.  Your response is incomprehensible, at least to me.

Offline gbzone

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #16 on: Fri Jun 08, 2012 - 23:05:51 »
"Every seed will bring forth fruit after its own kind"

What then shall I liken  the kingdom of God?

Its is like a sower who went to sow.

It is like a good amn who sowed good sed in his feild but while men slept his enmey came and sowed tares.

"I will put emnity between thy  seed(the serpent) and the seed of the woman"

It is not so much our successes  but of what SORT are we?

Even the weeds rejoice over the sun and the rain.

I will pour out my spirit upon ALL flesh.

I dont think we / the church  know Him who "is from the begining" We have but just" heard of him"

in Christ

gerald
This is an obvious attempt to link scripture passages taken out of context to prove who knows what.  Your response is incomprehensible, at least to me.

Time and space will not permist to put all on one mesage.
I dont use  obscure passages but well known ones.


How am i linking them out of context?

The whole of scripture is linked.

It is not I who first spake of the seed.
It is not I who said "the seed is the Word of God"
It is not I who said the kingdom of God is like a sower who wento to sow.
it is not I who spoke of the good seed and the tares.
it si not I who spoke of by thier fruist shall ye knwo them
it is not I who said "every seed will brign forth fruit after its own kind"
it is not I who spoke of the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent.
it is not I who spoek about the rain falling ujpon the just and the unjust
it is not I who said i will pour out My Spirit upon all flesh.
It is not I who speaks of the Word of God falling l,ike rain  or the snow .

The whole of scripture is full of this subject and \jesus likened the kingdom of god ins uch amanner.

My arguemnt therefore stands  that the church does not know God or indeed the scriptures as is boasted of.

True it may like a s"little children"
fewer as young men and even less him who is from the beginning.

The light shineth in the darkness and the darkness comprehended it not?
if your light be darkness how great then is your darkness?

One could say that in many cases .

But perhaps how you ahve been taight and how I ahve eben taught have bene very different.
You will have to judge.

in Christ

gerald

Offline gbzone

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #17 on: Fri Jun 08, 2012 - 23:33:10 »
God predestined those that are His and those who are not.

Understand this.

That ALL men are by nature predestined to corruption and death hell and damnation.

For Paul says we were all ;if Christs  once as all men "children of disobedience"

have not all have sinned and come short of the glory of God?

There is much in the quoting of predestination  that is self glorying.

One piece of clay  is no different from another .it is the potter that makes the difference and it is to the potter that must get all the glory

We are ALL by nature BORN of Adams seed.
 That is to be born in sin and shapen in iniquity. No hope there then!

Is it not written that EVERY seed will;" bring forth fruit after its own KIND"?
That seed whatever its kind or "sort" is therefore predestined to an end not to our liking.
For a corrupted seed is predestined to bring froth corruption unto death.

Where in then can we boast?

Why do you think  Jesus said "you Must be BORNagain"?

Well if we are all born of earth and of the first Adams seed.

We need also to be BORNagain of another seed.
Not of corruptable seed  but of "in-corruptable seed which is the word of God"

Well the Word of God as to one seed is also true of another.

If the corrupted seed is predestined to bring froth fruit after its own kind so then the incorruptible seed.
But the incorruptible seed is predestined to bring froth righteousness unto life.

Thus we must be translated not only form the kingdom of darkness  to the kingdom of gods dear son.

But clearly from one seed to another and from one predestination to another.

This is the Work of God.

The will of God
and the way of God.

Those who do not believe  do not obey  do not  respond or come to the cross where it can happen  go the predestined end according to thier kind.

That I by the grace of God did so and thus went in adifferent direction as it were has to be soley of Gods grace and mercy.

yet repsond I had to do.
Untill God gave me an alternative I had none .
Even though at the time I was seekign an 'alternative lifestyle'!

Yet even ikn my response it was the grace of God who enabled me . I dont pretend to understand why God should so love me.
I can think that it was God  who created man in the first place  and thus we are all his by creation.
and therefore sons .

God uses Life itself to lead men to the truth. When men do not believe the Word of God  then God steps back as it were and lest the curcumstances of a persons life to convince them of it.
Yet  thinking of this as some theological  thing does not make it less of a wonder when It was to me he showed such grace and love.

How then can I who was no different  in nature as all men boast as it were over others as I was predestined?

I cant .

As I was by that sinfull nature predestined to an end I did not want.

If God had doen nothing  if he had  not before the foundations of the world willed such things then man woukdl have been lost forever.
That will that word that way was Christ.
By whom all things were made.

The salvation of God was laid out in the garden of eden and by promise.

That Able responded and caine did not shows but the two seeds manifestign each their fruit.

But Able was counted rightous because he believed in Christ.Not because he was rightous.The sacrafice he offered of the lamb was a confession of sin.
but also glory to God a confession of faith  in Christ.

in Christ

gerald
#

HRoberson

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #18 on: Fri Jun 15, 2012 - 14:02:07 »
Actually, no.

The point of both Romans and Ephesians is that the people of God are composed of every nation. It is not that God has picked Paul but prevented someone else from being saved.

Because the offer of salvation is universal, we can speak of it as personal to some degree. Because we are either Jews or Gentiles, we have been predestined to enter the kingdom as member of those peoples who set our minds on things of God.

Paul's point in Romans is that it has always been the plan of God to recreate His people from all the peoples of the world - all are welcome.

It is not Paul's intent to suggest that God has individually prevented specific individuals from being saved. To make that his point is to wrench his letters from their context.
So you do not believe God is sovereign.
I didn't say that; please don't read into what I write. What I have said is that your use of "sovereign" is miss applied.

Quote
Romans and Ephesians are written for individuals, not corporate bodies.  Read the scriptures I quoted again.[/color][/size]
The preamble to those books are addressed to churches, but that is irrelevant. You are right that we are saved as we individually surrender ourselves to God. However, when Paul is discussing his topics in these books, that is not his specific point. His discussion is much more broad and far ranging than your individual salvation. He has a larger message.

Faith.Man

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #19 on: Sat Jun 16, 2012 - 11:25:50 »
Ephesians 1:1 - Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, to the saints who are at Ephesus, and who are faithful in Christ Jesus: [NASB 1977]

Romans 1:1 - Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,
Romans 1:2 - which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures,
Romans 1:3 - concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh,
Romans 1:4 - who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,
Romans 1:5 - through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles, for His name's sake,
Romans 1:6 - among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
Romans 1:7 - to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.   [NASB 1977]


If you read the above, you'll see that these letters were written to the believers at specific locations.  From history, we know that these letters were spread from one community of believers to another.  Once again, I have to waste valuable time to correct you.  Read and quote the word.  Your interpretation means nothing to me.

Offline Gomer

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #20 on: Wed Jul 04, 2012 - 08:10:14 »
Romans 8:29 - For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
 
Romans 8:30 - And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5 - he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

Ephesians 1:11 - In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,  [NIV]


It is clear from Holy Scripture that election is on an individual basis, not corporately applied.

More of the "blame game".

If God did not unconditionally choose me as an individual before the world began to be saved, then me being lost is to be 100% blamed on God.   How is it my fault if I was not chosen?

Faith.Man

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #21 on: Wed Jul 04, 2012 - 11:22:16 »
Romans 8:29 - For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
 
Romans 8:30 - And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5 - he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

Ephesians 1:11 - In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,  [NIV]


It is clear from Holy Scripture that election is on an individual basis, not corporately applied.

More of the "blame game".

If God did not unconditionally choose me as an individual before the world began to be saved, then me being lost is to be 100% blamed on God.   How is it my fault if I was not chosen?
So quoting Holy Scripture is the "blame game"?  It's a strange non-Biblical faith you have!

Offline Gomer

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #22 on: Wed Jul 04, 2012 - 11:29:26 »
Romans 8:29 - For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
 
Romans 8:30 - And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5 - he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

Ephesians 1:11 - In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,  [NIV]


It is clear from Holy Scripture that election is on an individual basis, not corporately applied.

More of the "blame game".

If God did not unconditionally choose me as an individual before the world began to be saved, then me being lost is to be 100% blamed on God.   How is it my fault if I was not chosen?
So quoting Holy Scripture is the "blame game"?  It's a strange non-Biblical faith you have!

Quoting scriptures is not the 'blame games' but twisting those scriptures into making God to blame is playing the 'blame game'.  Those verses mention a plural "those" and "us" and "we" referring to a group not singular individuals.

Faith.Man

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #23 on: Wed Jul 04, 2012 - 14:21:01 »
Romans 8:29 - For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
 
Romans 8:30 - And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5 - he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

Ephesians 1:11 - In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,  [NIV]


It is clear from Holy Scripture that election is on an individual basis, not corporately applied.

More of the "blame game".

If God did not unconditionally choose me as an individual before the world began to be saved, then me being lost is to be 100% blamed on God.   How is it my fault if I was not chosen?
So quoting Holy Scripture is the "blame game"?  It's a strange non-Biblical faith you have!

Quoting scriptures is not the 'blame games' but twisting those scriptures into making God to blame is playing the 'blame game'.  Those verses mention a plural "those" and "us" and "we" referring to a group not singular individuals.
Show me where you think I blamed God!  Show me where you think I twisted scriptures!  Your assertion that words like "those" and "us" and "we" be applied corporately instead of individually is in error.

For example:


Romans 8:30
Moreover, whom he did predestinate,.... Not to sufferings, which are not expressed nor designed, but to grace and glory after mentioned. This predestination is of particular persons, who, in consequence of it, are called, justified, and glorified; it is the effect of divine grace, and entirely owing to it; it is the source of all the other blessings of grace, and is therefore placed at the head of them, and secures them all:

them he also called; not to afflictions: many may be called to afflictions, and endure them, who are neither justified nor glorified; besides, the people of God, though they meet with many afflictions, between their call to eternal glory, and their enjoyment of it, yet they are not so much called to afflictions, as to patience under them: their call is of grace, by special grace, to peculiar blessings of grace, and to a kingdom and glory; and this their calling is secured by predestination, and connected with glorification: and whom he called,

them he also justified; the meaning of which is, not that he approved of them as sincere and faithful, on account of their faith and patience in sufferings; for neither of their sufferings, nor of their faith and patience in them, is there the least mention in the passage; nor can any instance be produced of the use of the word "justified" in this epistle, or elsewhere in this sense: but the meaning is, that such persons whom God predestinates and calls, he makes them righteous by the imputation of the righteousness of his Son unto them; which is unto all, and upon all them that believe; by which they are justified before God, and in their own consciences, from all sin, and so secured from all wrath and condemnation; wherefore glorification stands inseparably connected with it:

and whom he justified, them he also glorified; which is not meant of being made glorious under sufferings; nor of being made glorious by the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit; for the word is never used in this sense, nor is God ever said to glorify his people in this way; and the apostle is speaking of the saints in general, and not of particular ones: if this was the sense, none would be predestinated, called, and justified, but such who have the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit; and none would have the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit, but such persons; whereas many have had these, and yet no interest in the grace of God, and everlasting happiness: but eternal glory is here meant, which is what the apostle had been speaking of in the context; is what the elect are predestinated and called unto; and which their justification gives them a right and title to; and will consist in a likeness to Christ, in communion with him, in an everlasting vision of him, and in a freedom from all that is evil, and in an enjoyment of all that is good; and so the great end of predestinating grace will be answered in them mentioned in the foregoing verse: now this glorification may be said to be already done, with respect to that part of God's elect, who are in heaven, inheriting the promises; and is in some sense true also of that part of them which is on earth, who are called and justified; being made glorious within by the grace of Christ, and arrayed and adorned with the glorious robe of his righteousness; by the one they have a meetness, and by the other a right to eternal glory; of which this grace they have received is the beginning, pledge, and earnest: besides, they are already glorified in Christ, their head and representative, and in the view of God, and with respect to the certainty of it, it being prepared and made ready for them, is in the hands of Christ for them, and is insured to their faith and hope. It is an observation of a Jewish writer (n),

"that a thing שנגזר להיות, "which is decreed to be", is spoken of in the past tense:''

this is the Scripture style concerning things decreed, and such is the glorification of all God's elect.

(n) Aben Ezra, in Jon. ii. 2.  [from Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible]

Offline WILDJC

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #24 on: Wed Jul 04, 2012 - 14:41:41 »
I believe a debate is predestined because of this subject matter. Stay in peace my brothers and sisters in Christ, who was, and is, and shall be. Amen.

Offline Gomer

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #25 on: Wed Jul 04, 2012 - 22:37:02 »
Romans 8:29 - For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
 
Romans 8:30 - And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5 - he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

Ephesians 1:11 - In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,  [NIV]


It is clear from Holy Scripture that election is on an individual basis, not corporately applied.

More of the "blame game".

If God did not unconditionally choose me as an individual before the world began to be saved, then me being lost is to be 100% blamed on God.   How is it my fault if I was not chosen?
So quoting Holy Scripture is the "blame game"?  It's a strange non-Biblical faith you have!

Quoting scriptures is not the 'blame games' but twisting those scriptures into making God to blame is playing the 'blame game'.  Those verses mention a plural "those" and "us" and "we" referring to a group not singular individuals.
Show me where you think I blamed God!  Show me where you think I twisted scriptures!  Your assertion that words like "those" and "us" and "we" be applied corporately instead of individually is in error.

For example:


Romans 8:30
Moreover, whom he did predestinate,.... Not to sufferings, which are not expressed nor designed, but to grace and glory after mentioned. This predestination is of particular persons, who, in consequence of it, are called, justified, and glorified; it is the effect of divine grace, and entirely owing to it; it is the source of all the other blessings of grace, and is therefore placed at the head of them, and secures them all:

them he also called; not to afflictions: many may be called to afflictions, and endure them, who are neither justified nor glorified; besides, the people of God, though they meet with many afflictions, between their call to eternal glory, and their enjoyment of it, yet they are not so much called to afflictions, as to patience under them: their call is of grace, by special grace, to peculiar blessings of grace, and to a kingdom and glory; and this their calling is secured by predestination, and connected with glorification: and whom he called,

them he also justified; the meaning of which is, not that he approved of them as sincere and faithful, on account of their faith and patience in sufferings; for neither of their sufferings, nor of their faith and patience in them, is there the least mention in the passage; nor can any instance be produced of the use of the word "justified" in this epistle, or elsewhere in this sense: but the meaning is, that such persons whom God predestinates and calls, he makes them righteous by the imputation of the righteousness of his Son unto them; which is unto all, and upon all them that believe; by which they are justified before God, and in their own consciences, from all sin, and so secured from all wrath and condemnation; wherefore glorification stands inseparably connected with it:

and whom he justified, them he also glorified; which is not meant of being made glorious under sufferings; nor of being made glorious by the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit; for the word is never used in this sense, nor is God ever said to glorify his people in this way; and the apostle is speaking of the saints in general, and not of particular ones: if this was the sense, none would be predestinated, called, and justified, but such who have the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit; and none would have the extraordinary gifts of the Spirit, but such persons; whereas many have had these, and yet no interest in the grace of God, and everlasting happiness: but eternal glory is here meant, which is what the apostle had been speaking of in the context; is what the elect are predestinated and called unto; and which their justification gives them a right and title to; and will consist in a likeness to Christ, in communion with him, in an everlasting vision of him, and in a freedom from all that is evil, and in an enjoyment of all that is good; and so the great end of predestinating grace will be answered in them mentioned in the foregoing verse: now this glorification may be said to be already done, with respect to that part of God's elect, who are in heaven, inheriting the promises; and is in some sense true also of that part of them which is on earth, who are called and justified; being made glorious within by the grace of Christ, and arrayed and adorned with the glorious robe of his righteousness; by the one they have a meetness, and by the other a right to eternal glory; of which this grace they have received is the beginning, pledge, and earnest: besides, they are already glorified in Christ, their head and representative, and in the view of God, and with respect to the certainty of it, it being prepared and made ready for them, is in the hands of Christ for them, and is insured to their faith and hope. It is an observation of a Jewish writer (n),

"that a thing שנגזר להיות, "which is decreed to be", is spoken of in the past tense:''

this is the Scripture style concerning things decreed, and such is the glorification of all God's elect.

(n) Aben Ezra, in Jon. ii. 2.  [from Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible]

 

If before the world began  God only pre-selected certain individuals to be saved and if I was not one pre-chosen and therefore lost, how is not being pre-chosen my fault?  It's not my fault for it would be 100% God's fault I was not chosen and lost.

But the biblical truth is that before the world began, God foreknew a group that would later be called Christians.  God did not pre-determine what individuals would or would not be in this foreknown group.  Each person decides for him/herself to be in this group or not by deciding to obey the gospel and become a Christian or not.

In the context in Rom 8:28 "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose."

In v28 the "them", the group Paul speaks of are those the love (obey) God and are "the called" according to His purpose, so this verse is plainly talking about the group Christians.


Verse 29 "For whom"  whom is a plural pronoun referring to this group called Christian, the ones that love God and are "the called".  It was this group that God predestinated, foreknew, called, etc.

Verse 30 simply lays out God's entire plan of salvation He foreknew before the world began.  The past tenses do not mean these things already unconditionally occurred to certain individuals before the world began and those individuals have certain salvation.

In Jude 1:1 Jude writes to those he refers to as 'called' yet commands them to keep themselves in God's love, v21.  They could fall from God's saving love and be lost.

In 1 Cor 6:11 Paul tells the Corinthians ye are justifED yet later tells them to take heed lest they fall, 1 cor 10:12

In Rom 8:17 being glorified is conditional upon suffering with Christ.

Offline Cally

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #26 on: Wed Jul 04, 2012 - 22:44:34 »

If before the world began  God only pre-selected certain individuals to be saved and if I was not one pre-chosen and therefore lost, how is not being pre-chosen my fault?  It's not my fault for it would be 100% God's fault I was not chosen and lost.


You did not make yourself. God made you.

If you accepted God and desired to keep his commandments, the reason would be because of the fact that God made you in such a way that you would do so. That would be his act of mercy on you.

Someone else may not choose God. This is because God designed them hardened. Mercy is available to him just as it is the one who accepted it, but he is not designed that he would seek out God.

Word-for-word, Romans 9 explains all of this.

Offline Gomer

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #27 on: Thu Jul 05, 2012 - 11:28:48 »
Quote from: Cally

You did not make yourself. God made you.

If you accepted God and desired to keep his commandments, the reason would be because of the fact that God made you in such a way that you would do so. That would be his act of mercy on you.

Then if I was disbedient, God would be the cause of that, not me, for God failed to make me in such a way that I would obey Him.  You have God making me to be disobeidnet then punishing me for the disobedience He made to do.

Quote from: Cally
Someone else may not choose God. This is because God designed them hardened. Mercy is available to him just as it is the one who accepted it, but he is not designed that he would seek out God.

Word-for-word, Romans 9 explains all of this.

First you say someone may not choose God.  Why will they not choose God?  You say because God designed them to be harden.

So they have no free will to choose as you first claimed.  For if God designed them hardened then God already chose for them to reject Him.  So they never had any choice to choose God or not choose God for God already settled that when He made them hardened.

Eccl 7:29 "Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. "

Offline Cally

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #28 on: Fri Jul 06, 2012 - 05:16:03 »
Quote from: Cally

You did not make yourself. God made you.

If you accepted God and desired to keep his commandments, the reason would be because of the fact that God made you in such a way that you would do so. That would be his act of mercy on you.

Then if I was disbedient, God would be the cause of that, not me, for God failed to make me in such a way that I would obey Him.  You have God making me to be disobeidnet then punishing me for the disobedience He made to do.

Quote from: Cally
Someone else may not choose God. This is because God designed them hardened. Mercy is available to him just as it is the one who accepted it, but he is not designed that he would seek out God.

Word-for-word, Romans 9 explains all of this.

First you say someone may not choose God.  Why will they not choose God?  You say because God designed them to be harden.

So they have no free will to choose as you first claimed.  For if God designed them hardened then God already chose for them to reject Him.  So they never had any choice to choose God or not choose God for God already settled that when He made them hardened.

Eccl 7:29 "Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. "

It seems like a paradox, but it's not. Not when you recognize the obvious fact that every choice has a cause--a person's innate character causes his choices.

Some believers of the "Free Will" theology will say that evidence for free will exists at every point where someone chooses good or evil or where God tells them to choose good or evil (as if to absurdly suggest that this slipped the minds of people who argue against free will). However, the resulting choice depends on the way they are put together--whatever is IN a man will determine his choices. If a man chooses good, it's because of goodness inside him bearing the outward fruit as it were.

And every aspect of a person traces back to his creator, God.

Offline Gomer

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #29 on: Fri Jul 06, 2012 - 11:40:21 »
Quote from: Cally

You did not make yourself. God made you.

If you accepted God and desired to keep his commandments, the reason would be because of the fact that God made you in such a way that you would do so. That would be his act of mercy on you.

Then if I was disbedient, God would be the cause of that, not me, for God failed to make me in such a way that I would obey Him.  You have God making me to be disobeidnet then punishing me for the disobedience He made to do.

Quote from: Cally
Someone else may not choose God. This is because God designed them hardened. Mercy is available to him just as it is the one who accepted it, but he is not designed that he would seek out God.

Word-for-word, Romans 9 explains all of this.

First you say someone may not choose God.  Why will they not choose God?  You say because God designed them to be harden.

So they have no free will to choose as you first claimed.  For if God designed them hardened then God already chose for them to reject Him.  So they never had any choice to choose God or not choose God for God already settled that when He made them hardened.

Eccl 7:29 "Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. "

It seems like a paradox, but it's not. Not when you recognize the obvious fact that every choice has a cause--a person's innate character causes his choices.

Some believers of the "Free Will" theology will say that evidence for free will exists at every point where someone chooses good or evil or where God tells them to choose good or evil (as if to absurdly suggest that this slipped the minds of people who argue against free will). However, the resulting choice depends on the way they are put together--whatever is IN a man will determine his choices. If a man chooses good, it's because of goodness inside him bearing the outward fruit as it were.

And every aspect of a person traces back to his creator, God.

It's not a paradox but simply an impossible contradiction.  You cannot say that people choose only what God makes them choose and claim that is some real choice of the free will.  It is force not choice  for if God "put me together" whereas I can only do wrong, then I have no choice, I can only do what I was forced to do/put together to do.  God then is responsible and culpable for all the sin I do for that is how God "put me together".  I have no responsibility or culpablity in how God put me together.

Offline Man_Of_Honor

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #30 on: Fri Jul 06, 2012 - 11:45:55 »
http://www.gotquestions.org/predestination.html


If God is choosing who is saved, doesn’t that undermine our free will to chose and believe in Christ? The Bible says that we have the choice—all who believe in Jesus Christ will be saved (John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10). The Bible never describes God rejecting anyone who believes in Him or turning away anyone who is seeking Him (Deuteronomy 4:29). Somehow, in the mystery of God, predestination works hand-in-hand with a person being drawn by God (John 6:44) and believing unto salvation (Romans 1:16). God predestines who will be saved, and we must choose Christ in order to be saved. Both facts are equally true. Romans 11:33 proclaims, “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!

Offline Gomer

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #31 on: Fri Jul 06, 2012 - 11:54:18 »
http://www.gotquestions.org/predestination.html


If God is choosing who is saved, doesn’t that undermine our free will to chose and believe in Christ? The Bible says that we have the choice—all who believe in Jesus Christ will be saved (John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10). The Bible never describes God rejecting anyone who believes in Him or turning away anyone who is seeking Him (Deuteronomy 4:29). Somehow, in the mystery of God, predestination works hand-in-hand with a person being drawn by God (John 6:44) and believing unto salvation (Romans 1:16). God predestines who will be saved, and we must choose Christ in order to be saved. Both facts are equally true. Romans 11:33 proclaims, “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!
« Last Edit: Fri Jul 06, 2012 - 12:02:03 by Gomer »

Offline Cally

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #32 on: Fri Jul 06, 2012 - 13:34:39 »
Quote from: Cally

You did not make yourself. God made you.

If you accepted God and desired to keep his commandments, the reason would be because of the fact that God made you in such a way that you would do so. That would be his act of mercy on you.

Then if I was disbedient, God would be the cause of that, not me, for God failed to make me in such a way that I would obey Him.  You have God making me to be disobeidnet then punishing me for the disobedience He made to do.

Quote from: Cally
Someone else may not choose God. This is because God designed them hardened. Mercy is available to him just as it is the one who accepted it, but he is not designed that he would seek out God.

Word-for-word, Romans 9 explains all of this.

First you say someone may not choose God.  Why will they not choose God?  You say because God designed them to be harden.

So they have no free will to choose as you first claimed.  For if God designed them hardened then God already chose for them to reject Him.  So they never had any choice to choose God or not choose God for God already settled that when He made them hardened.

Eccl 7:29 "Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. "

It seems like a paradox, but it's not. Not when you recognize the obvious fact that every choice has a cause--a person's innate character causes his choices.

Some believers of the "Free Will" theology will say that evidence for free will exists at every point where someone chooses good or evil or where God tells them to choose good or evil (as if to absurdly suggest that this slipped the minds of people who argue against free will). However, the resulting choice depends on the way they are put together--whatever is IN a man will determine his choices. If a man chooses good, it's because of goodness inside him bearing the outward fruit as it were.

And every aspect of a person traces back to his creator, God.

It's not a paradox but simply an impossible contradiction.  You cannot say that people choose only what God makes them choose and claim that is some real choice of the free will.  It is force not choice  for if God "put me together" whereas I can only do wrong, then I have no choice, I can only do what I was forced to do/put together to do.  God then is responsible and culpable for all the sin I do for that is how God "put me together".  I have no responsibility or culpablity in how God put me together.

All of us are created beings and that's the way it is. Nothing about a creation is or can be outside of the influence or control of its (or his) creator.

Offline Gomer

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #33 on: Mon Jul 09, 2012 - 11:46:35 »
Quote from: Cally

You did not make yourself. God made you.

If you accepted God and desired to keep his commandments, the reason would be because of the fact that God made you in such a way that you would do so. That would be his act of mercy on you.

Then if I was disbedient, God would be the cause of that, not me, for God failed to make me in such a way that I would obey Him.  You have God making me to be disobeidnet then punishing me for the disobedience He made to do.

Quote from: Cally
Someone else may not choose God. This is because God designed them hardened. Mercy is available to him just as it is the one who accepted it, but he is not designed that he would seek out God.

Word-for-word, Romans 9 explains all of this.

First you say someone may not choose God.  Why will they not choose God?  You say because God designed them to be harden.

So they have no free will to choose as you first claimed.  For if God designed them hardened then God already chose for them to reject Him.  So they never had any choice to choose God or not choose God for God already settled that when He made them hardened.

Eccl 7:29 "Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. "

It seems like a paradox, but it's not. Not when you recognize the obvious fact that every choice has a cause--a person's innate character causes his choices.

Some believers of the "Free Will" theology will say that evidence for free will exists at every point where someone chooses good or evil or where God tells them to choose good or evil (as if to absurdly suggest that this slipped the minds of people who argue against free will). However, the resulting choice depends on the way they are put together--whatever is IN a man will determine his choices. If a man chooses good, it's because of goodness inside him bearing the outward fruit as it were.

And every aspect of a person traces back to his creator, God.

It's not a paradox but simply an impossible contradiction.  You cannot say that people choose only what God makes them choose and claim that is some real choice of the free will.  It is force not choice  for if God "put me together" whereas I can only do wrong, then I have no choice, I can only do what I was forced to do/put together to do.  God then is responsible and culpable for all the sin I do for that is how God "put me together".  I have no responsibility or culpablity in how God put me together.

All of us are created beings and that's the way it is. Nothing about a creation is or can be outside of the influence or control of its (or his) creator.

I never denied that all of us are created beings, I am denying the unjustness Calvinism puts upon God by saying God creates some men to be sinner against thier will then God punishes them for the sins God forced them to commit.

Do you have children Cally?  If so, have you ever forced them to disobey you just so you could punish them?

Have you ever told them to clean their room yet lock the door to their room making it impossible for them to get inside the room to clean clean it, then you punish them for not cleaning their room? 

Has God told men to believe then lock some men into unbelief making it impossible for them to believe, then God punishes them for the unbelief God forced them into?

Offline Cally

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #34 on: Fri Jul 13, 2012 - 05:20:47 »
Quote from: Cally

You did not make yourself. God made you.

If you accepted God and desired to keep his commandments, the reason would be because of the fact that God made you in such a way that you would do so. That would be his act of mercy on you.

Then if I was disbedient, God would be the cause of that, not me, for God failed to make me in such a way that I would obey Him.  You have God making me to be disobeidnet then punishing me for the disobedience He made to do.

Quote from: Cally
Someone else may not choose God. This is because God designed them hardened. Mercy is available to him just as it is the one who accepted it, but he is not designed that he would seek out God.

Word-for-word, Romans 9 explains all of this.

First you say someone may not choose God.  Why will they not choose God?  You say because God designed them to be harden.

So they have no free will to choose as you first claimed.  For if God designed them hardened then God already chose for them to reject Him.  So they never had any choice to choose God or not choose God for God already settled that when He made them hardened.

Eccl 7:29 "Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. "

It seems like a paradox, but it's not. Not when you recognize the obvious fact that every choice has a cause--a person's innate character causes his choices.

Some believers of the "Free Will" theology will say that evidence for free will exists at every point where someone chooses good or evil or where God tells them to choose good or evil (as if to absurdly suggest that this slipped the minds of people who argue against free will). However, the resulting choice depends on the way they are put together--whatever is IN a man will determine his choices. If a man chooses good, it's because of goodness inside him bearing the outward fruit as it were.

And every aspect of a person traces back to his creator, God.

It's not a paradox but simply an impossible contradiction.  You cannot say that people choose only what God makes them choose and claim that is some real choice of the free will.  It is force not choice  for if God "put me together" whereas I can only do wrong, then I have no choice, I can only do what I was forced to do/put together to do.  God then is responsible and culpable for all the sin I do for that is how God "put me together".  I have no responsibility or culpablity in how God put me together.

All of us are created beings and that's the way it is. Nothing about a creation is or can be outside of the influence or control of its (or his) creator.

I never denied that all of us are created beings, I am denying the unjustness Calvinism puts upon God by saying God creates some men to be sinner against thier will then God punishes them for the sins God forced them to commit.

Do you have children Cally?  If so, have you ever forced them to disobey you just so you could punish them?

Have you ever told them to clean their room yet lock the door to their room making it impossible for them to get inside the room to clean clean it, then you punish them for not cleaning their room? 

Has God told men to believe then lock some men into unbelief making it impossible for them to believe, then God punishes them for the unbelief God forced them into?

I Don't have kids.

Romans 11:8
God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.