Author Topic: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?  (Read 11816 times)

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HRoberson

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #70 on: Sat Oct 13, 2012 - 19:54:42 »
The TULIP application of predestination includes the concept that God has created people in such a way that some will not be able to respond to the call of God.


Have they sinned? Sure.


But God prevents some from responding to the "free call" that "all men be saved."


It isn't their sin that keeps them from being saved, it is God's decision that they will not be saved.


And that is heretical.

Your thinking is painfully simple and reflects a total lack of understanding of what it means that God is man's creator.

It IS their sin that keeps them from being saved. Just as some didn't recognize Jesus when they saw him, some simply do not recognize right from wrong. Similar is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, in which someone just plain can't tell the difference between the Devil and the Holy Spirit. God is the one who designs people either able or unable to discern.

With the small scope of your thinking, I know that you evaluate that as saying "God sinned." But that's the same straw man that Paul made when he said "why does God find fault, for who resists his will?" (after all, if it was God's will to make a man that way, how is it man's fault?) to which Paul responded that the potter has the right to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor. People have been filling the role of that straw man ever since.

You're the one who is confused, HRoberson, and that's been plain since you can't understand why someone who believes that way would evangelize. There is the human perspective and the God perspective. We preach the gospel from our perspective in which people make choices and we are not aware of their inner wiring--just as Jesus exposed himself to everyone knowing that some would recognize him and others wouldn't. If you can grasp the CREATOR'S perspective, you can see that he has every right to build his creations however he wants. That's what Romans 9 is about.
Here we go again.

God says he wants all men to be saved.....

But he has eternally created many specifically so they cannot be.

You have yet to explain that conundrum.

 Because you can't, and neither can any other Calvinist.

Your only tactic remains that "God is sovereign," a hand wave to dismiss the illogic in your view.

Offline Cally

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #71 on: Sat Oct 13, 2012 - 20:36:18 »
The TULIP application of predestination includes the concept that God has created people in such a way that some will not be able to respond to the call of God.


Have they sinned? Sure.


But God prevents some from responding to the "free call" that "all men be saved."


It isn't their sin that keeps them from being saved, it is God's decision that they will not be saved.


And that is heretical.

Your thinking is painfully simple and reflects a total lack of understanding of what it means that God is man's creator.

It IS their sin that keeps them from being saved. Just as some didn't recognize Jesus when they saw him, some simply do not recognize right from wrong. Similar is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, in which someone just plain can't tell the difference between the Devil and the Holy Spirit. God is the one who designs people either able or unable to discern.

With the small scope of your thinking, I know that you evaluate that as saying "God sinned." But that's the same straw man that Paul made when he said "why does God find fault, for who resists his will?" (after all, if it was God's will to make a man that way, how is it man's fault?) to which Paul responded that the potter has the right to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor. People have been filling the role of that straw man ever since.

You're the one who is confused, HRoberson, and that's been plain since you can't understand why someone who believes that way would evangelize. There is the human perspective and the God perspective. We preach the gospel from our perspective in which people make choices and we are not aware of their inner wiring--just as Jesus exposed himself to everyone knowing that some would recognize him and others wouldn't. If you can grasp the CREATOR'S perspective, you can see that he has every right to build his creations however he wants. That's what Romans 9 is about.
Here we go again.

God says he wants all men to be saved.....

But he has eternally created many specifically so they cannot be.

You have yet to explain that conundrum.

 Because you can't, and neither can any other Calvinist.

Your only tactic remains that "God is sovereign," a hand wave to dismiss the illogic in your view.

You've yet to respond to a post to which I keep directing you that answers that question. It's up to you to completely ignore what I say, though.

HRoberson

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #72 on: Sat Oct 13, 2012 - 20:45:43 »
The TULIP application of predestination includes the concept that God has created people in such a way that some will not be able to respond to the call of God.


Have they sinned? Sure.


But God prevents some from responding to the "free call" that "all men be saved."


It isn't their sin that keeps them from being saved, it is God's decision that they will not be saved.


And that is heretical.

Your thinking is painfully simple and reflects a total lack of understanding of what it means that God is man's creator.

It IS their sin that keeps them from being saved. Just as some didn't recognize Jesus when they saw him, some simply do not recognize right from wrong. Similar is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, in which someone just plain can't tell the difference between the Devil and the Holy Spirit. God is the one who designs people either able or unable to discern.

With the small scope of your thinking, I know that you evaluate that as saying "God sinned." But that's the same straw man that Paul made when he said "why does God find fault, for who resists his will?" (after all, if it was God's will to make a man that way, how is it man's fault?) to which Paul responded that the potter has the right to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor. People have been filling the role of that straw man ever since.

You're the one who is confused, HRoberson, and that's been plain since you can't understand why someone who believes that way would evangelize. There is the human perspective and the God perspective. We preach the gospel from our perspective in which people make choices and we are not aware of their inner wiring--just as Jesus exposed himself to everyone knowing that some would recognize him and others wouldn't. If you can grasp the CREATOR'S perspective, you can see that he has every right to build his creations however he wants. That's what Romans 9 is about.
Here we go again.

God says he wants all men to be saved.....

But he has eternally created many specifically so they cannot be.

You have yet to explain that conundrum.

 Because you can't, and neither can any other Calvinist.

Your only tactic remains that "God is sovereign," a hand wave to dismiss the illogic in your view.

You've yet to respond to a post to which I keep directing you that answers that question. It's up to you to completely ignore what I say, though.
[/quoteWhat I have done is rejected your continued reliance on sovereignty, as not responsive to the logical question.

Offline Cally

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #73 on: Sat Oct 13, 2012 - 20:47:19 »
HRoberson:

Did you ever read my post referring to Moses at Mt Sinai?
« Last Edit: Sat Oct 13, 2012 - 21:23:18 by Cally »

Lively Stone

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #74 on: Sat Oct 13, 2012 - 21:19:24 »
The TULIP application of predestination includes the concept that God has created people in such a way that some will not be able to respond to the call of God.


Have they sinned? Sure.


But God prevents some from responding to the "free call" that "all men be saved."


It isn't their sin that keeps them from being saved, it is God's decision that they will not be saved.


And that is heretical.

Your thinking is painfully simple and reflects a total lack of understanding of what it means that God is man's creator.

It IS their sin that keeps them from being saved. Just as some didn't recognize Jesus when they saw him, some simply do not recognize right from wrong. Similar is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, in which someone just plain can't tell the difference between the Devil and the Holy Spirit. God is the one who designs people either able or unable to discern.

With the small scope of your thinking, I know that you evaluate that as saying "God sinned." But that's the same straw man that Paul made when he said "why does God find fault, for who resists his will?" (after all, if it was God's will to make a man that way, how is it man's fault?) to which Paul responded that the potter has the right to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor. People have been filling the role of that straw man ever since.

You're the one who is confused, HRoberson, and that's been plain since you can't understand why someone who believes that way would evangelize. There is the human perspective and the God perspective. We preach the gospel from our perspective in which people make choices and we are not aware of their inner wiring--just as Jesus exposed himself to everyone knowing that some would recognize him and others wouldn't. If you can grasp the CREATOR'S perspective, you can see that he has every right to build his creations however he wants. That's what Romans 9 is about.
Here we go again.

God says he wants all men to be saved.....

But he has eternally created many specifically so they cannot be.

Like who??


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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #74 on: Sat Oct 13, 2012 - 21:19:24 »



HRoberson

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #75 on: Sat Oct 13, 2012 - 21:56:43 »
The TULIP application of predestination includes the concept that God has created people in such a way that some will not be able to respond to the call of God.


Have they sinned? Sure.


But God prevents some from responding to the "free call" that "all men be saved."


It isn't their sin that keeps them from being saved, it is God's decision that they will not be saved.


And that is heretical.

Your thinking is painfully simple and reflects a total lack of understanding of what it means that God is man's creator.

It IS their sin that keeps them from being saved. Just as some didn't recognize Jesus when they saw him, some simply do not recognize right from wrong. Similar is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, in which someone just plain can't tell the difference between the Devil and the Holy Spirit. God is the one who designs people either able or unable to discern.

With the small scope of your thinking, I know that you evaluate that as saying "God sinned." But that's the same straw man that Paul made when he said "why does God find fault, for who resists his will?" (after all, if it was God's will to make a man that way, how is it man's fault?) to which Paul responded that the potter has the right to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor. People have been filling the role of that straw man ever since.

You're the one who is confused, HRoberson, and that's been plain since you can't understand why someone who believes that way would evangelize. There is the human perspective and the God perspective. We preach the gospel from our perspective in which people make choices and we are not aware of their inner wiring--just as Jesus exposed himself to everyone knowing that some would recognize him and others wouldn't. If you can grasp the CREATOR'S perspective, you can see that he has every right to build his creations however he wants. That's what Romans 9 is about.
Here we go again.

God says he wants all men to be saved.....

But he has eternally created many specifically so they cannot be.

Like who??


You have to follow the conversation.

Lively Stone

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #76 on: Sat Oct 13, 2012 - 22:01:25 »
The TULIP application of predestination includes the concept that God has created people in such a way that some will not be able to respond to the call of God.


Have they sinned? Sure.


But God prevents some from responding to the "free call" that "all men be saved."


It isn't their sin that keeps them from being saved, it is God's decision that they will not be saved.


And that is heretical.

Your thinking is painfully simple and reflects a total lack of understanding of what it means that God is man's creator.

It IS their sin that keeps them from being saved. Just as some didn't recognize Jesus when they saw him, some simply do not recognize right from wrong. Similar is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, in which someone just plain can't tell the difference between the Devil and the Holy Spirit. God is the one who designs people either able or unable to discern.

With the small scope of your thinking, I know that you evaluate that as saying "God sinned." But that's the same straw man that Paul made when he said "why does God find fault, for who resists his will?" (after all, if it was God's will to make a man that way, how is it man's fault?) to which Paul responded that the potter has the right to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor. People have been filling the role of that straw man ever since.

You're the one who is confused, HRoberson, and that's been plain since you can't understand why someone who believes that way would evangelize. There is the human perspective and the God perspective. We preach the gospel from our perspective in which people make choices and we are not aware of their inner wiring--just as Jesus exposed himself to everyone knowing that some would recognize him and others wouldn't. If you can grasp the CREATOR'S perspective, you can see that he has every right to build his creations however he wants. That's what Romans 9 is about.
Here we go again.

God says he wants all men to be saved.....

But he has eternally created many specifically so they cannot be.

Like who??


You have to follow the conversation.

Oh, just humour me, here.

Who on earth could the blood of Jesus not cleanse, if repentant??

HRoberson

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Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #77 on: Sun Oct 14, 2012 - 09:54:59 »
The TULIP application of predestination includes the concept that God has created people in such a way that some will not be able to respond to the call of God.


Have they sinned? Sure.


But God prevents some from responding to the "free call" that "all men be saved."


It isn't their sin that keeps them from being saved, it is God's decision that they will not be saved.


And that is heretical.

Your thinking is painfully simple and reflects a total lack of understanding of what it means that God is man's creator.

It IS their sin that keeps them from being saved. Just as some didn't recognize Jesus when they saw him, some simply do not recognize right from wrong. Similar is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, in which someone just plain can't tell the difference between the Devil and the Holy Spirit. God is the one who designs people either able or unable to discern.

With the small scope of your thinking, I know that you evaluate that as saying "God sinned." But that's the same straw man that Paul made when he said "why does God find fault, for who resists his will?" (after all, if it was God's will to make a man that way, how is it man's fault?) to which Paul responded that the potter has the right to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor. People have been filling the role of that straw man ever since.

You're the one who is confused, HRoberson, and that's been plain since you can't understand why someone who believes that way would evangelize. There is the human perspective and the God perspective. We preach the gospel from our perspective in which people make choices and we are not aware of their inner wiring--just as Jesus exposed himself to everyone knowing that some would recognize him and others wouldn't. If you can grasp the CREATOR'S perspective, you can see that he has every right to build his creations however he wants. That's what Romans 9 is about.
Here we go again.

God says he wants all men to be saved.....

But he has eternally created many specifically so they cannot be.

Like who??


You have to follow the conversation.

Oh, just humour me, here.

Who on earth could the blood of Jesus not cleanse, if repentant??
You're asking the wrong person.

Lively Stone

  • Guest
Re: Has God Pre-Destined those whom are His?
« Reply #78 on: Sun Oct 14, 2012 - 12:35:02 »
The TULIP application of predestination includes the concept that God has created people in such a way that some will not be able to respond to the call of God.


Have they sinned? Sure.


But God prevents some from responding to the "free call" that "all men be saved."


It isn't their sin that keeps them from being saved, it is God's decision that they will not be saved.


And that is heretical.

OK, this is a fairly old thread! I did return to this and I see your point. It is heretical.
« Last Edit: Sun Oct 14, 2012 - 14:28:01 by Lively Stone »