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Author Topic: Questions for Calvinism  (Read 14762 times)
Ek Pyros
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« on: July 29, 2008, 10:36:23 AM »
I'm studying Calvinism.  If you were going to ask questions of a Calvinist from a skeptical point of view, what would they be?
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« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2008, 11:06:10 AM »
I would start with the TULIP.  I have serious issues with all five points.
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Steven Hutson

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« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2008, 11:06:10 AM »
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Ek Pyros
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« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2008, 11:20:26 AM »
What are your issues?
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Wycliffes_Shillelagh
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« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2008, 11:24:11 AM »
Go back a few pages in this forum and look for any post started by Terrence.  You should find lots and lots of critical questions in those.
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« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2008, 11:27:02 AM »
Quote from: Ek Pyros on July 29, 2008, 11:20:26 AM
What are your issues?
I believe there are five:

Total Depravity (I believe God gives us the ability to make choices).

Unconditional election (Contradicts many Bible admonitions to choose)

Limited Atonement (I believe Jesus died for everyone)

Irrestible Grace (Contradicts many Bible admonitions to choose)

Perseverance of the Saints (See Rev. 3:20)
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Terrence
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« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2008, 01:00:24 PM »
Stevehut:

Total Depravity (I believe God gives us the ability to make choices) - "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him." Where's the ability to choose there Steve?

Unconditional election (Contradicts many Bible admonitions to choose) - If your assumption about the 1st point is wrong, and it is, your conclusion will be wrong. Nevertheless, here's on of many scriptures to prove the doctrine..."John 6:37: All that the Father giveth me shall come unto me."

Limited Atonement (I believe Jesus died for everyone) - Christ is recorded as saying..."I lay down my life for the sheep" and "I justify many." Never does Christ say that he died for all, but because we see "world" and the word "all," we wrongly assume it to mean everyone individually, instead of everyone without distinction, e.g., Jews AND Gentiles too.

Irrestible Grace (Contradicts many Bible admonitions to choose) - such as? I see it in scriptures like John 6:37, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me."

Perseverance of the Saints (See Rev. 3:20) - See Romans 8:30
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« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2008, 01:00:24 PM »
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Ek Pyros
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« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2008, 01:09:58 PM »
Quote from: Terrence on July 29, 2008, 01:00:24 PM
Stevehut:

Total Depravity (I believe God gives us the ability to make choices) - "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him." Where's the ability to choose there Steve?

Unconditional election (Contradicts many Bible admonitions to choose) - If your assumption about the 1st point is wrong, and it is, your conclusion will be wrong. Nevertheless, here's on of many scriptures to prove the doctrine..."John 6:37: All that the Father giveth me shall come unto me."

Limited Atonement (I believe Jesus died for everyone) - Christ is recorded as saying..."I lay down my life for the sheep" and "I justify many." Never does Christ say that he died for all, but because we see "world" and the word "all," we wrongly assume it to mean everyone individually, instead of everyone without distinction, e.g., Jews AND Gentiles too.

Irrestible Grace (Contradicts many Bible admonitions to choose) - such as? I see it in scriptures like John 6:37, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me."

Perseverance of the Saints (See Rev. 3:20) - See Romans 8:30


I would add the other half of John 6:37 to Perseverance of the Saints.  John 6 teaches U, I, and P.
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« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2008, 01:15:17 PM »
Quote from: Ek Pyros on July 29, 2008, 10:36:23 AM
I'm studying Calvinism.  If you were going to ask questions of a Calvinist from a skeptical point of view, what would they be?

There is a very interesting book that does just what you are suggesting.  It is

Troubling Questions for Calvinists, ....and for all the rest of us, by F. Laguard Smith, published by Cotswold Publishing.

I think that you might find it interesting.  It deals with each of the five points of Calvinism plus more, showing how they are counter Biblical for the most part and circular in the arguments in many cases.  

It is relatively inexpensive and you can find it at Amazon.com.
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Ek Pyros
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« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2008, 01:29:47 PM »
Sounds like an interesting read.
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Harold
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« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2008, 01:31:29 PM »
Quote from: Terrence on July 29, 2008, 01:00:24 PM
Stevehut:

Total Depravity (I believe God gives us the ability to make choices) - "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him." Where's the ability to choose there Steve?

Unconditional election (Contradicts many Bible admonitions to choose) - If your assumption about the 1st point is wrong, and it is, your conclusion will be wrong. Nevertheless, here's on of many scriptures to prove the doctrine..."John 6:37: All that the Father giveth me shall come unto me."

Limited Atonement (I believe Jesus died for everyone) - Christ is recorded as saying..."I lay down my life for the sheep" and "I justify many." Never does Christ say that he died for all, but because we see "world" and the word "all," we wrongly assume it to mean everyone individually, instead of everyone without distinction, e.g., Jews AND Gentiles too.

Irrestible Grace (Contradicts many Bible admonitions to choose) - such as? I see it in scriptures like John 6:37, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me."

Perseverance of the Saints (See Rev. 3:20) - See Romans 8:30



If I am lifted up I will draw all men, God through Christ drawing all men to the Cross.

Preach the Good News of Jesus Christ, His words will convert, the message of the Good News is the power of God unto Salvation. Faith comes by hearing.

Hear it, believe it, and receive it. It is all about Christ, all things in Christ.

FTL
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Rom 1:17  For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith." (NIV)

I neither agree nor disagree with any thing posted on the board, I am interjecting thoughts not my beliefs, unless so stated.
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« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2008, 01:31:29 PM »
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Wycliffes_Shillelagh
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« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2008, 01:32:47 PM »
Is there a difference between

Perseverance of the Saints
 and
Once-Saved-Always-Saved (OSAS)

??
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Ek Pyros
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« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2008, 01:36:41 PM »
Quote from: Harold on July 29, 2008, 01:31:29 PM
Quote from: Terrence on July 29, 2008, 01:00:24 PM
Stevehut:

Total Depravity (I believe God gives us the ability to make choices) - "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him." Where's the ability to choose there Steve?

Unconditional election (Contradicts many Bible admonitions to choose) - If your assumption about the 1st point is wrong, and it is, your conclusion will be wrong. Nevertheless, here's on of many scriptures to prove the doctrine..."John 6:37: All that the Father giveth me shall come unto me."

Limited Atonement (I believe Jesus died for everyone) - Christ is recorded as saying..."I lay down my life for the sheep" and "I justify many." Never does Christ say that he died for all, but because we see "world" and the word "all," we wrongly assume it to mean everyone individually, instead of everyone without distinction, e.g., Jews AND Gentiles too.

Irrestible Grace (Contradicts many Bible admonitions to choose) - such as? I see it in scriptures like John 6:37, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me."

Perseverance of the Saints (See Rev. 3:20) - See Romans 8:30



If I am lifted up I will draw all men, God through Christ drawing all men to the Cross.

Preach the Good News of Jesus Christ, His words will convert, the message of the Good News is the power of God unto Salvation. Faith comes by hearing.

Hear it, believe it, and receive it. It is all about Christ, all things in Christ.

FTL
I take it, then, that you are a universalist?

Jarod - I don't believe so.
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James Rondon
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« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2008, 01:41:07 PM »
Quote from: Terrence on July 29, 2008, 01:00:24 PM
Total Depravity (I believe God gives us the ability to make choices) - "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him." Where's the ability to choose there Steve?

It is clear that God must first draw the sinner. But after being drawn, what from this passage excludes choice on their part?

Quote from: Terrence on July 29, 2008, 01:00:24 PM
Unconditional election (Contradicts many Bible admonitions to choose) - If your assumption about the 1st point is wrong, and it is, your conclusion will be wrong. Nevertheless, here's on of many scriptures to prove the doctrine..."John 6:37: All that the Father giveth me shall come unto me."

The ones whom the Father has given, are those who come to Him. Again, they must first be drawn in order to come, but drawing doesn't exclude choice afterward.

Quote from: Terrence on July 29, 2008, 01:00:24 PM
Limited Atonement (I believe Jesus died for everyone) - Christ is recorded as saying..."I lay down my life for the sheep" and "I justify many." Never does Christ say that he died for all, but because we see "world" and the word "all," we wrongly assume it to mean everyone individually, instead of everyone without distinction, e.g., Jews AND Gentiles too.

Laying down His life for His sheep does not exclude that He also laid down His life for everyone. Case in point, Paul's statement in Galatians 2:20 ("who loved me and gave Himself for me") does not mean that Christ only died for Paul.

Quote from: Terrence on July 29, 2008, 01:00:24 PM
Irrestible Grace (Contradicts many Bible admonitions to choose) - such as? I see it in scriptures like John 6:37, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me."

See above.

Quote from: Terrence on July 29, 2008, 01:00:24 PM
Perseverance of the Saints (See Rev. 3:20) - See Romans 8:30

One of my favorite passages on this point is Hebrews chapter 10, especially verses 38 and 39.
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« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2008, 01:41:07 PM »
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Harold
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« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2008, 01:45:28 PM »
Quote from: Ek Pyros on July 29, 2008, 01:36:41 PM
Quote from: Harold on July 29, 2008, 01:31:29 PM
Quote from: Terrence on July 29, 2008, 01:00:24 PM
Stevehut:

Total Depravity (I believe God gives us the ability to make choices) - "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him." Where's the ability to choose there Steve?

Unconditional election (Contradicts many Bible admonitions to choose) - If your assumption about the 1st point is wrong, and it is, your conclusion will be wrong. Nevertheless, here's on of many scriptures to prove the doctrine..."John 6:37: All that the Father giveth me shall come unto me."

Limited Atonement (I believe Jesus died for everyone) - Christ is recorded as saying..."I lay down my life for the sheep" and "I justify many." Never does Christ say that he died for all, but because we see "world" and the word "all," we wrongly assume it to mean everyone individually, instead of everyone without distinction, e.g., Jews AND Gentiles too.

Irrestible Grace (Contradicts many Bible admonitions to choose) - such as? I see it in scriptures like John 6:37, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me."

Perseverance of the Saints (See Rev. 3:20) - See Romans 8:30



If I am lifted up I will draw all men, God through Christ drawing all men to the Cross.

Preach the Good News of Jesus Christ, His words will convert, the message of the Good News is the power of God unto Salvation. Faith comes by hearing.

Hear it, believe it, and receive it. It is all about Christ, all things in Christ.

FTL
I take it, then, that you are a universalist?

Jarod - I don't believe so.

 Scratching head....a little confused.

I don't get it.

FTL
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Rom 1:17  For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith." (NIV)

I neither agree nor disagree with any thing posted on the board, I am interjecting thoughts not my beliefs, unless so stated.
Ek Pyros
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« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2008, 01:59:20 PM »
Quote from: James
It is clear that God must first draw the sinner. But after being drawn, what from this passage excludes choice on their part?
Nothing.
Quote from: James
The ones whom the Father has given, are those who come to Him. Again, they must first be drawn in order to come, but drawing doesn't exclude choice afterward.
Agreed.
Quote from: James
Laying down His life for His sheep does not exclude that He also laid down His life for everyone. Case in point, Paul's statement in Galatians 2:20 ("who loved me and gave Himself for me") does not mean that Christ only died for Paul.
Is Christ the Mediator for everyone, then?  Additionally, Jesus hides the truth from His listeners in Mark 4 and Matthew 13 so that they will not believe.
Quote from: James
One of my favorite passages on this point is Hebrews chapter 10, especially verses 38 and 39.
I'm not sure what you're trying to apply from those verses...
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