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Author Topic: Questions for Calvinism  (Read 14768 times)
Ek Pyros
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« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2008, 02:01:01 PM »
Quote from: Harold
I don't get it.
Maybe you should draw out your argument more then.  It seems like you're promoting unverisalism by leaving it at "Christ will draw all men to Himself."
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James Rondon
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« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2008, 02:19:05 PM »
Quote from: Ek Pyros on July 29, 2008, 01:59:20 PM
Quote from: James
It is clear that God must first draw the sinner. But after being drawn, what from this passage excludes choice on their part?
Nothing.
Quote from: James
The ones whom the Father has given, are those who come to Him. Again, they must first be drawn in order to come, but drawing doesn't exclude choice afterward.
Agreed.

I'm glad to see that we are in agreement.

Quote from: Ek Pyros on July 29, 2008, 01:59:20 PM
Quote from: James
Laying down His life for His sheep does not exclude that He also laid down His life for everyone. Case in point, Paul's statement in Galatians 2:20 ("who loved me and gave Himself for me") does not mean that Christ only died for Paul.
Is Christ the Mediator for everyone, then?

Terrence made the point that Christ only died for His sheep, based on that passage he referred to in John chapter 10. However, when one considers passages such as Galatians 2:20, one can see that his logic and conclusion are in error.

As far as Christ being the mediator for everyone, He is the only mediator between God and man. Thus, in a general sense, He is the mediator for everyone and anyone, but specifically, He only mediates for those who have come to Him by faith (cf. 1 Timothy 4:10).

Quote from: Ek Pyros on July 29, 2008, 01:59:20 PM
Quote from: James
One of my favorite passages on this point is Hebrews chapter 10, especially verses 38 and 39.
I'm not sure what you're trying to apply from those verses...

That passage seems to suggest both viewpoints, however, it also seems to conclude with the idea that those who are truly in Christ will believe unto the saving of the soul (perseverance; salvation in the ultimate, and final sense).
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« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2008, 02:19:05 PM »
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Wycliffes_Shillelagh
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« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2008, 02:25:44 PM »
Quote from: Ek Pyros on July 29, 2008, 01:59:20 PM
Jesus hides the truth from His listeners in Mark 4 and Matthew 13 so that they will not believe.
He definitely hides what He's saying in parables, but are you sure He did that so they wouldn't believe?

I would say rather than their unbelief was the reason it was and stayed hidden.

Mat 13:13  Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

They didn't believe enough to inquire further (like the disciples did).  Jesus gave them an opportunity to engage the subject but they only wanted to be spoon-fed the answers.  Sort of reminds me of a few modern church-goers.

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« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2008, 02:28:53 PM »
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on July 29, 2008, 01:32:47 PM
Is there a difference between

Perseverance of the Saints
 and
Once-Saved-Always-Saved (OSAS)

??

Yes and no.

I think all who subscribe to "perseverance of the saints" would say that "once" you're "saved," you're "always saved."  But, they believe that being saved means you'll persevere.  If you don't persevere, then you weren't really saved to begin with.

There are some, on the other hand, who believe in "once saved, always saved," who might possibly believe that you can fall away, not persevere, and still be saved anyway.  I wouldn't think there would be many who truly believe this though.  But, I could be wrong.
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DCR
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« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2008, 02:32:42 PM »
Quote from: Jimmy on July 29, 2008, 01:15:17 PM
Troubling Questions for Calvinists, ....and for all the rest of us, by F. Laguard Smith,

I've heard F. Laguard Smith speak (not about Calvinism but about other things).  He's an interesting and very thought-provoking guy.  I've not read any of his books though.
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« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2008, 02:33:26 PM »
Quote from: DCR on July 29, 2008, 02:28:53 PM
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on July 29, 2008, 01:32:47 PM
Is there a difference between

Perseverance of the Saints
 and
Once-Saved-Always-Saved (OSAS)

??

Yes and no.

I think all who subscribe to "perseverence of the saints" would say that "once" you're "saved," you're "always saved."  But, they believe that being saved means you'll persevere.  If you don't persevere, then you weren't really saved to begin with.

There are some, on the other hand, who believe in "once saved, always saved," who might possibly believe that you can fall away, not persevere, and still be saved anyway.  I wouldn't think there would be many who truly believe this though.  But, I could be wrong.

You would be wrong, hence why some always equate the "P" in TULIP with OSAS, which is a more modern look at it.

There are people who believe any crazy thing.
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« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2008, 02:33:26 PM »
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DCR
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« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2008, 02:36:07 PM »
Quote from: Ek Pyros on July 29, 2008, 02:01:01 PM
Quote from: Harold
I don't get it.
Maybe you should draw out your argument more then.  It seems like you're promoting unverisalism by leaving it at "Christ will draw all men to Himself."

"Drawing" doesn't necessarily mean "forcing" and it doesn't necessarily imply that one cannot resist or spurn one's drawing.
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Wycliffes_Shillelagh
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« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2008, 02:37:01 PM »
Quote from: Gary on July 29, 2008, 02:33:26 PM
Quote from: DCR on July 29, 2008, 02:28:53 PM
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on July 29, 2008, 01:32:47 PM
Is there a difference between

Perseverance of the Saints
 and
Once-Saved-Always-Saved (OSAS)

??

Yes and no.

I think all who subscribe to "perseverence of the saints" would say that "once" you're "saved," you're "always saved."  But, they believe that being saved means you'll persevere.  If you don't persevere, then you weren't really saved to begin with.

There are some, on the other hand, who believe in "once saved, always saved," who might possibly believe that you can fall away, not persevere, and still be saved anyway.  I wouldn't think there would be many who truly believe this though.  But, I could be wrong.

You would be wrong, hence why some always equate the "P" in TULIP with OSAS, which is a more modern look at it.

There are people who believe any crazy thing.
For some reason your post makes no sense to me, Gary.  What are you saying?
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« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2008, 02:38:05 PM »
I don't believe in a limited opportunity, but it is functionally limited.
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« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2008, 02:39:51 PM »
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on July 29, 2008, 02:37:01 PM
Quote from: Gary on July 29, 2008, 02:33:26 PM
Quote from: DCR on July 29, 2008, 02:28:53 PM
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on July 29, 2008, 01:32:47 PM
Is there a difference between

Perseverance of the Saints
 and
Once-Saved-Always-Saved (OSAS)

??

Yes and no.

I think all who subscribe to "perseverence of the saints" would say that "once" you're "saved," you're "always saved."  But, they believe that being saved means you'll persevere.  If you don't persevere, then you weren't really saved to begin with.

There are some, on the other hand, who believe in "once saved, always saved," who might possibly believe that you can fall away, not persevere, and still be saved anyway.  I wouldn't think there would be many who truly believe this though.  But, I could be wrong.

You would be wrong, hence why some always equate the "P" in TULIP with OSAS, which is a more modern look at it.

There are people who believe any crazy thing.
For some reason your post makes no sense to me, Gary.  What are you saying?

Responding to DCR in what I've bolded for your enjoyment.  There are folks who believe what DCR is implying, that one can be saved, live so grace can abound (live like hell) and since they were saved at once, they are always saved.
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« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2008, 02:39:51 PM »
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DCR
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« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2008, 02:40:33 PM »
Quote from: Gary on July 29, 2008, 02:33:26 PM
You would be wrong, hence why some always equate the "P" in TULIP with OSAS, which is a more modern look at it.

There are people who believe any crazy thing.

Please elaborate.  Are you suggesting that some who believe in "perseverance of the saints" believe it's possible that a "saved" person may "not always be saved" (become lost)?
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« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2008, 02:44:04 PM »
Quote from: Gary on July 29, 2008, 02:39:51 PM
Responding to DCR in what I've bolded for your enjoyment.  There are folks who believe what DCR is implying, that one can be saved, live so grace can abound (live like hell) and since they were saved at once, they are always saved.

No.  Go back and read my post again.  I said that belief in "perseverance of the saints" means that a saved person will persevere (in other words, not live like hell that grace may abound).

And, I pointed out that it's a rarer point of view that someone believes the extreme of OSAS that says you can live any way you want.  So, there's good OSAS (perseverance of the saints) and bad OSAS (live like hell that grace may abound).  That was my point... which is why I said "yes and no."
« Last Edit: July 29, 2008, 02:59:37 PM by DCR » Logged
Ek Pyros
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« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2008, 03:02:51 PM »
Quote from: James Rondon on July 29, 2008, 02:19:05 PM
Quote from: Ek Pyros on July 29, 2008, 01:59:20 PM
Quote from: James
Laying down His life for His sheep does not exclude that He also laid down His life for everyone. Case in point, Paul's statement in Galatians 2:20 ("who loved me and gave Himself for me") does not mean that Christ only died for Paul.
Is Christ the Mediator for everyone, then?

Terrence made the point that Christ only died for His sheep, based on that passage he referred to in John chapter 10. However, when one considers passages such as Galatians 2:20, one can see that his logic and conclusion are in error.

As far as Christ being the mediator for everyone, He is the only mediator between God and man. Thus, in a general sense, He is the mediator for everyone and anyone, but specifically, He only mediates for those who have come to Him by faith (cf. 1 Timothy 4:10).
I don't think Limited Atonement rests solely on John 10.

Here is the reason I asked about Christ mediating for every single person.  1 Tim 2:5-6 reads

5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

I guess whether my question matters depends on how you view that passage: does the phrase "ransom for all" mean that Christ was the ransom for everyone or people in general?  If He was the ransom for everyone, then that passage must likewise state that He is the mediator for everyone.

Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on July 29, 2008, 02:25:44 PM
Quote from: Ek Pyros on July 29, 2008, 01:59:20 PM
Jesus hides the truth from His listeners in Mark 4 and Matthew 13 so that they will not believe.
He definitely hides what He's saying in parables, but are you sure He did that so they wouldn't believe?

I would say rather than their unbelief was the reason it was and stayed hidden.

Mat 13:13  Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

They didn't believe enough to inquire further (like the disciples did).  Jesus gave them an opportunity to engage the subject but they only wanted to be spoon-fed the answers.  Sort of reminds me of a few modern church-goers.

Whistling
Go back three verses.
10And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?" 11Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.  12"For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him."
Quote from: DCR on July 29, 2008, 02:36:07 PM
Quote from: Ek Pyros on July 29, 2008, 02:01:01 PM
Quote from: Harold
I don't get it.
Maybe you should draw out your argument more then.  It seems like you're promoting unverisalism by leaving it at "Christ will draw all men to Himself."

"Drawing" doesn't necessarily mean "forcing" and it doesn't necessarily imply that one cannot resist or spurn one's drawing.
No, it may not necessarily mean forcing...but the Greek strongly suggests a forced action.  Helkuo literally means to drag.  The same word is used in Acts 16:19 and James 2:6.

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1670&t=kjv

Notice the uses never give consideration to the will of the thing being "drawn" or "dragged."  Indeed, when used of people it seems to consistently mean "to drag off."

But here's the real question - can dead men resist being dragged?...
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« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2008, 03:02:51 PM »
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Bocephus
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« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2008, 03:13:39 PM »
Quote from: DCR on July 29, 2008, 02:40:33 PM
Quote from: Gary on July 29, 2008, 02:33:26 PM
You would be wrong, hence why some always equate the "P" in TULIP with OSAS, which is a more modern look at it.

There are people who believe any crazy thing.

Please elaborate.  Are you suggesting that some who believe in "perseverence of the saints" believe it's possible that a "saved" person may not "always be saved" (become lost)?

No.  I was responding about the OSAS fellers.
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« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2008, 03:15:58 PM »
Quote from: DCR on July 29, 2008, 02:44:04 PM
Quote from: Gary on July 29, 2008, 02:39:51 PM
Responding to DCR in what I've bolded for your enjoyment.  There are folks who believe what DCR is implying, that one can be saved, live so grace can abound (live like hell) and since they were saved at once, they are always saved.

No.  Go back and read my post again.  I said that belief in "perseverance of the saints" means that a saved person will persevere (in other words, not live like hell that grace may abound).

And, I pointed out that it's a rarer point of view that someone believes the extreme of OSAS that says you can live any way you want.  So, there's good OSAS (perseverance of the saints) and bad OSAS (live like hell that grace may abound).  That was my point... which is why I said "yes and no."

I said you were wrong about there not being many who believe in OSAS.  In my circles OSAS and Perseverance of the Saints are not confused.
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"Are you one of those Christians that you don't land in any church because none of them is right for you, none of them is biblical, none of them is good enough?  If you've been to 27 churches, and not one of them is right, just remember this you're the only constant variable.  It's probably you." - Mark Driscoll, from message "God Sends."
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