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Author Topic: Some things God Does We Do not Understand  (Read 5139 times)

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Offline gospel

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Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« on: Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 13:49:51 »
All to often people boldly say, while if God did this and God did that it would mean it was God's fault people are not saved so this or that can't be true.

IMO this is the tragic mistake in judging God on the basis of human understanding of what is fair and what is not fair

IMO in the same way we have a finite limited understanding of God's Love, we probably have far less understanding of God's justice

Moreover, one would have to pretty bold to accuse God of anything contrary to Righteous, Just and Holy...personally I couldn't do it but that's just me!

I'm content in taking what the scriptures say, no matter what they say and concluding there are some things about God I simply do not understand

That stated lets explore some of the things God does because God wants to for reasons He does not have to justify to mere mortals... according to human standards

9that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
10and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
11For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
12in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

2 Thessalonians 2

God did what?

Romans 1:28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.
  

God did what?

“He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.

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Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« on: Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 13:49:51 »

Offline candy

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #1 on: Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 14:09:12 »
Gospel,
I also believe God has His reasons for doing things. His reasons are certainly good enough for my fallible human ears and eyes.  I know God sees the end from the beginning and knows more about every single one of us than there is information in this world.  He truly is the great I AM.  He really IS.   There are lots of things I don't understand either.  The Lord knows there is a lot of evil in this world and He uses it for His own reasons.  Our God is a God of order.  There is no chaos in Him.  When there's chaos, we know God knows about it and is using it for something for His own purpose.  His purposes should be good enough for us.  After all He is God and we're not.  As far as Calvin, I don't know him either, but like you said if he reads the Gospel and comes to the same conclusions, all the more power to him.  Another devoted brother in Christ.  Our God is righteous, holy,loving, merciful,just, and much more to the maximum that we can receive.  God knows we can't receive His utmost because it's too much for us.  Like you said, who are we to judge God?  I, too can not do it.  My thoughts.
Candy

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #1 on: Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 14:09:12 »

Offline Loner

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #2 on: Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 14:18:06 »
Its really quite simple:
Isa 55:9  For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Offline fish153

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #3 on: Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 14:21:30 »
gospel--

I would agree totally.  "We see as through a glass darkly, but then face to face".  It is as though we are looking at a Beautiful pciture of a landscape, but we can only see a tree here, or a rock there--the rest is a blur.  We can say with certainty "that is a tree". but we cannot say with certainty what the FULL PICTURE shows.

We can see part of the picture, but much of it is still a mystery, which will be revealed one day. To try to interpret the mind of an INFINITE GOD using our limited logic is a very foolish error indeed.

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #3 on: Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 14:21:30 »

Offline Gomer

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #4 on: Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 14:24:48 »
If God made faith necessary for me to be saved, yet the only way I can obtain faith is if God gives it to me, then whose fault is it if I die not ever having faith?  It cannot be my fault for having faith was out of my control.  If God did not give me the required faith, then God is causing me to sin the sin of unbelief.  So we have God causing me to sin, then punishing me for the sin He casued me to commit.  THis would not be merciful, loving or just in any sense.  In Mt 25:24 the man with one talent went out and buried that talent, then when  God returned he tried to blame God for his own action.  It was God's fault for being a "hard man" that caused him to bury his one talent.  He tried to blame God for a free will choice he made and was cast into outer darkness, v30.

In the three verses you posted you try and have God cause people to sin just so He can punish them and God does not do this, it is not in His character to do so. Do parents make their children disobey them just so they can punish their children?  What would you think of parents that do such a thing?  God does not do such a thing either.  In the Hebrew language there is an idiom where an active verb is used to indicate that God actively did something when in reality God only allowed it to happen.  For example, it is impossible for God to lie so He does not cause people to believe lies for a loving God would not do such, but if one is determined  to believe lies then God will allow him to do so.


2 Thess 2:10,11 "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"

In verse 10 they already determined themselves to believe lies and in v11 God allows them to.

"Second, there is a common Hebrew idiom used throughout the Old Testament by which the permissive will of God is expressed in forceful, active jargon. The Lord is said to have “hardened Pharaoh’s heart
« Last Edit: Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 14:36:15 by Gomer »

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #4 on: Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 14:24:48 »



Offline gospel

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #5 on: Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 14:31:32 »
Quote
If God made faith necessary for me to be saved, yet the only way I can obtain faith is if God gives it to me, then whose fault is it if I die not ever having faith?  It cannot be my fault for having faith was out of my control.

This the type of classic reasoning which caused me to start this thread and all I can tell you Gomer is this...

All I know is if God, for whatever reason hardens your heart...your heart will truly be hardened and one thing for sure....if He does harden it,

...He has His reasons and I for one would not question it.  ::frown::

Exodus 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

God did what?
« Last Edit: Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 14:38:05 by gospel »

Offline Thankfulldad

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #6 on: Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 14:32:20 »
If God made faith necessary for me to be saved, yet the only way I can obtain faith is if God gives it to me, then whose fault is it if I die not ever having faith?  It cannot be my fault for having faith was out of my control.

God knocks...will you open the door of your heart?

When you hear...do you find that you believe?

You either believe; or you reject...

If you believe; God has come in...His faith was recieved by you...no more questions...just thank Him and give Him the glory...

Offline Gomer

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #7 on: Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 14:59:52 »
Quote
If God made faith necessary for me to be saved, yet the only way I can obtain faith is if God gives it to me, then whose fault is it if I die not ever having faith?  It cannot be my fault for having faith was out of my control.

This the type of classic reasoning which caused me to start this thread and all I can tell you Gomer is this...

All I know is if God, for whatever reason hardens your heart...your heart will truly be hardened and one thing for sure....if He does harden it,

...He has His reasons and I for one would not question it.  ::frown::

Exodus 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

God did what?

You are putting God in a position where He is not loving, just or merciful.  God does not cause people to sin against their will then punish them for the sin God forced them to do.  If what you think is true it would make an atheist out of me.

Ex 8:15 "But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. "


If God hardened Pharaoh's heart then why does this verse tell us Pharaoh hardened his own heart?  


Also note that the verse ends by saying "as the Lord had said".  Where did the Lord say Pharaoh would harden his own heart?


-God hardened Pharaoh's heart
-Pharaoh hardened his own heart
-Moses hardened Pharaoh's heart
-the words 'let my people go' hardened Pharaoh's heart

There were several sources that hardened Pharaoh's heart.  Pharaoh of his own will hardened his own heart, God hardened his heart but not directly against Pharaoh's will.  God created the circumstance by sending Moses to Pharaoh with the command to let my people go.  This put Pharaoh in a position to have to choose to obey or disobey and Pharaoh chose of his own will to disobey, yet since God created the circumstance God is said to harden his heart. It's a common figure of speech.  Suppose you are holding a vicious attack dog on a leash and you willingly let the dog loose and it attacks someone and injures them and puts them in the hospital.  They may get an attorney and sue you for the injuries YOU caused. During the trial the injured person's attorney will accuse YOU of causing the injury even though you never laid a finger on the other person. You will be said to cause the injury for it was YOU that created the circumstance by letting the dog go that brought about the injury.  Just as you did not directly injure the other person God did not harden Pharoah's heart directly against Pharaoh's will but God did it indirectly by creating the circumstance.  Again, God put Pharaoh in a position where Pharaoh had to choose to obey or not, Pharaoh of his own will chose to harden his own heart and not obey but since God created the circumstance God is said to have hardened his heart.
« Last Edit: Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 15:10:16 by Gomer »

Offline Gomer

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #8 on: Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 15:05:33 »
If God made faith necessary for me to be saved, yet the only way I can obtain faith is if God gives it to me, then whose fault is it if I die not ever having faith?  It cannot be my fault for having faith was out of my control.

God knocks...will you open the door of your heart?

When you hear...do you find that you believe?

You either believe; or you reject...

If you believe; God has come in...His faith was recieved by you...no more questions...just thank Him and give Him the glory...

THe thoughts of some here is that God will not allow me to open the door just so He can punish me....God forces the door closed where I cannot ever open it even if I wanted to.

Offline gospel

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #9 on: Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 15:07:53 »
Quote
You are putting God in a position where He is not loving, just or merciful.  God does not cause people to sin against their will then punish them for the sin God forced them to do.  If what you think is true it would make an atheist out of me.

I'm not big enough to put God in any position nor do I presume to explain His Ways...what I am doing is showing you what God has done and expressing my opinion that some things God does we DO NOT understand

Quote
Also note that the verse ends by saying "as the Lord had said".  Where did the Lord say Pharaoh would harden his own heart?

That's for you to figure out Gomer meanwhile here's another one

Now he did not say this on his own initiative, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation, John 11:51

Caiaphas, the high priest THOUGHT what he was saying was of his own accord but he didn't realize God was simply using him to prophesy the Gospel of Christ

Offline Gomer

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #10 on: Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 15:23:40 »
Quote from: gospel
I'm not big enough to put God in any position nor do I presume to explain His Ways...what I am doing is showing you what God has done and expressing my opinion that some things God does we DO NOT understand

Yes you are trying to put God in a position to do things that He does not do.

Quote from: gospel
Gomer: Also note that the verse ends by saying "as the Lord had said".  Where did the Lord say Pharaoh would harden his own heart?

That's for you to figure out Gomer meanwhile here's another one

NO, it a problem you have created that you will have to explain.


Quote from: gospel
Now he did not say this on his own initiative, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation, John 11:51

Caiaphas, the high priest THOUGHT what he was saying was of his own accord but he didn't realize God was simply using him to prophesy the Gospel of Christ

I never said God did not use people to accomplish His will, I am saying He does not force people to do things against their own will, that is, He does not force people to commit sins just so He can then punish them.

Here is what Barnes, a Calvinist (at least a quasi-Calvinist), has to say about Jn 11:51:

1st. God may fulfil the words of the wicked in a manner which they do not wish or intend.

2nd. He may make even their malice and wicked plots the very means of accomplishing his purposes. What they regard as the fulfillment of their plans God may make the fulfillment of his, yet so as directly to overthrow their designs, and prostrate them in ruin.

3rd. Sinners should tremble and be afraid when they lay plans against God, or seek to do unjustly to others.



Just as in Acts 2:23, God used the Jews to accomplish His own will.  The Jews thought they were fulfilling their plan in murdering the Messiah when in reality they were fulling God's plan yet God never made the Jews commit murder against their own will.

Offline fish153

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #11 on: Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 15:38:55 »
Gomer--you said:

>>>>In Mt 25:24 the man with one talent went out and buried that talent, then when  God returned he tried to blame God for his own action.  It was God's fault for being a "hard man" that caused him to bury his one talent.  He tried to blame God for a free will choice he made and was cast into outer darkness, v30.<<<

Yes---he tried to blame God that there was no "increase".  But the talent itself came from God! God made the decision whom to give his talents to didn't he?

Without first receiving the talent from God (which was HIS decision not the servant's) there would be no way to ever get an increase in the first place.


Offline gospel

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #12 on: Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 15:39:07 »
Quote
Just as in Acts 2:23, God used the Jews to accomplish His own will.  The Jews thought they were fulfilling their plan in murdering the Messiah when in reality they were fulling God's plan yet God never made the Jews commit murder against their own will.

You can call it whatever you want...
You can twist and bend it into any shape you want trying to explain it

I can't explain it and that is simply because I do not completely understand it

All I do know is what the bible says....

Here is another one

While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.John 17:12

God said what?

Seems to me
Before Judas betrayed Jesus,  
Before the Last Supper,
Jesus already knew he would betray Him and worse yet,
Jesus already considered Judas doomed and worse
Jesus said Judas was doomed!

Now You explain it....admittedly I can't

I just know what it says....

JUDAS WAS DOOMED and to me that's a little like being destined except with dark consequences and a bad ending

What do you think?  ::shrug::



Offline Gomer

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #13 on: Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 15:50:45 »
Gomer--you said:

>>>>In Mt 25:24 the man with one talent went out and buried that talent, then when  God returned he tried to blame God for his own action.  It was God's fault for being a "hard man" that caused him to bury his one talent.  He tried to blame God for a free will choice he made and was cast into outer darkness, v30.<<<

Yes---he tried to blame God that there was no "increase".  But the talent itself came from God! God made the decision whom to give his talents to didn't he?

Without first receiving the talent from God (which was HIS decision not the servant's) there would be no way to ever get an increase in the first place.




THe issue is why did he bury his talent.  Was burying it a choice of his own or something God forced him to do?

Burying his talent was the wrong thing to do yet he buried it for he said God was a "hard man".  This man was trying to blame God for burying his talent when in reality it was his own choice. 

If God caused Pharaoh to harden his heart agaisnt his will, then Pharaoh has an excuse on judgment day.  IF God causes people to sin agasint thier will then they will all have excuse.  Rom 1:20, men are going to be without excuse so God does not casue men to sin agaisnt their will.

Offline candy

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #14 on: Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 15:53:42 »
All I know is whatever God wants God gets and rightfully.  God chooses to do things that serve His own purpose.  He may cause us to do or say something that determines an outcome for someone else.  God, of course, knows the plan of all of us.  His agenda is what we should strive to fulfill.  If God tells us to do something, we should just do it with no questions asked.  If it truly is from God, then why ask?  We know God has a divine plan.  Hopefully, through the resurrection of Jesus, we'll be a part of His plan.  It seems so to me.  All power and glory to Jesus Christ who made it all possible for us.
Candy

Offline Gomer

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #15 on: Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 15:57:05 »
Quote
Just as in Acts 2:23, God used the Jews to accomplish His own will.  The Jews thought they were fulfilling their plan in murdering the Messiah when in reality they were fulling God's plan yet God never made the Jews commit murder against their own will.

You can call it whatever you want...
You can twist and bend it into any shape you want trying to explain it

I can't explain it and that is simply because I do not completely understand it

All I do know is what the bible says....

Here is another one

While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.John 17:12

God said what?

Seems to me
Before Judas betrayed Jesus,  
Before the Last Supper,
Jesus already knew he would betray Him and worse yet,
Jesus already considered Judas doomed and worse
Jesus said Judas was doomed!

Now You explain it....admittedly I can't

I just know what it says....

JUDAS WAS DOOMED and to me that's a little like being destined except with dark consequences and a bad ending

What do you think?  ::shrug::





The scripture to be fulfilled in Jn 17:12 is most likely Psa 41:9 "Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up [his] heel against me."

Judas said "I have sinned" he did not say God made me do it.  God foreknew what Judas would do and God used the choices Judas made to accomplish His own will but God never forced/predetermined Judas to sin.

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #16 on: Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 16:01:41 »
If God made faith necessary for me to be saved, yet the only way I can obtain faith is if God gives it to me, then whose fault is it if I die not ever having faith?  It cannot be my fault for having faith was out of my control.  If God did not give me the required faith, then God is causing me to sin the sin of unbelief.  So we have God causing me to sin, then punishing me for the sin He casued me to commit.  THis would not be merciful, loving or just in any sense.  In Mt 25:24 the man with one talent went out and buried that talent, then when  God returned he tried to blame God for his own action.  It was God's fault for being a "hard man" that caused him to bury his one talent.  He tried to blame God for a free will choice he made and was cast into outer darkness, v30.

In the three verses you posted you try and have God cause people to sin just so He can punish them and God does not do this, it is not in His character to do so. Do parents make their children disobey them just so they can punish their children?  What would you think of parents that do such a thing?  God does not do such a thing either.  In the Hebrew language there is an idiom where an active verb is used to indicate that God actively did something when in reality God only allowed it to happen.  For example, it is impossible for God to lie so He does not cause people to believe lies for a loving God would not do such, but if one is determined  to believe lies then God will allow him to do so.


2 Thess 2:10,11 "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"

In verse 10 they already determined themselves to believe lies and in v11 God allows them to.

"Second, there is a common Hebrew idiom used throughout the Old Testament by which the permissive will of God is expressed in forceful, active jargon. The Lord is said to have “hardened Pharaoh’s heart

Offline gospel

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #17 on: Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 16:03:30 »
All I know is whatever God wants God gets and rightfully.  God chooses to do things that serve His own purpose.  He may cause us to do or say something that determines an outcome for someone else.  God, of course, knows the plan of all of us.  His agenda is what we should strive to fulfill.  If God tells us to do something, we should just do it with no questions asked.  If it truly is from God, then why ask?  We know God has a divine plan.  Hopefully, through the resurrection of Jesus, we'll be a part of His plan.  It seems so to me.  All power and glory to Jesus Christ who made it all possible for us.
Candy

You are exactly right Candy!

God's will is sovereign in ways none of us can truly understand or comprehend

Doesn't Sovereign mean in simple terms

His Will trumps my own


  ::announcment:: He's the beginning and He's the ending

WILL SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN THAT!

Jesus is the author and the finisher

Now ....I'm not a Rhodes scholar but doesn't that mean He wrote the story? Doesn't the writer ultimately know what His characters will do or at the very least...where they will end up?

It would've been something else to meet up with Jonah in the belly of the fish just to ask him one question

"Hey dude, hows that free choice workin for ya?"

He'd probably answer

"I'll let you know when I get to Nineveh!"  rofl

Offline gospel

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #18 on: Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 16:08:22 »
Quote
Judas said "I have sinned" he did not say God made me do it.  God foreknew what Judas would do and God used the choices Judas made to accomplish His own will but God never forced/predetermined Judas to sin.

Well you're the one trying to explain it...not me

All I'm saying is before Judas CHOSE

Jesus said Judas was doomed

In other words it was a done deal

Judas was doomed to CHOOSE what He CHOSE

In the same way

Once God said He would harden Pharaohs heart....

Pharaoh was hardened to CHOOSE what He Chose

As for me...

I can't say I truly understand it I just know what the scriptures say

I'll let you do all the explaining Gomer


Offline Gomer

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #19 on: Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 16:10:37 »
If God made faith necessary for me to be saved, yet the only way I can obtain faith is if God gives it to me, then whose fault is it if I die not ever having faith?  It cannot be my fault for having faith was out of my control.  If God did not give me the required faith, then God is causing me to sin the sin of unbelief.  So we have God causing me to sin, then punishing me for the sin He casued me to commit.  THis would not be merciful, loving or just in any sense.  In Mt 25:24 the man with one talent went out and buried that talent, then when  God returned he tried to blame God for his own action.  It was God's fault for being a "hard man" that caused him to bury his one talent.  He tried to blame God for a free will choice he made and was cast into outer darkness, v30.

In the three verses you posted you try and have God cause people to sin just so He can punish them and God does not do this, it is not in His character to do so. Do parents make their children disobey them just so they can punish their children?  What would you think of parents that do such a thing?  God does not do such a thing either.  In the Hebrew language there is an idiom where an active verb is used to indicate that God actively did something when in reality God only allowed it to happen.  For example, it is impossible for God to lie so He does not cause people to believe lies for a loving God would not do such, but if one is determined  to believe lies then God will allow him to do so.


2 Thess 2:10,11 "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"

In verse 10 they already determined themselves to believe lies and in v11 God allows them to.

"Second, there is a common Hebrew idiom used throughout the Old Testament by which the permissive will of God is expressed in forceful, active jargon. The Lord is said to have “hardened Pharaoh’s heart

Offline gospel

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #20 on: Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 16:14:24 »
I can't bother with all of that Gomer...I'm stuck on what the bible says, human wisdom ain't gonna cut it for me

I'm one of those dyed in the wool Isaiah 55:8-11 folks

I take the 11th verse of Isaiah 55 as God's way of saying what I'm trying to say

HIS WILL IS SOVEREIGN!

so is my word that goes out from my mouth:

It will not return to me empty,

but will accomplish what I desire

and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.



Offline Gomer

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #21 on: Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 16:14:46 »
Quote
Judas said "I have sinned" he did not say God made me do it.  God foreknew what Judas would do and God used the choices Judas made to accomplish His own will but God never forced/predetermined Judas to sin.

Well you're the one trying to explain it...not me

All I'm saying is before Judas CHOSE

Jesus said Judas was doomed

In other words it was a done deal

Judas was doomed to CHOOSE what He CHOSE

In the same way

Once God said He would harden Pharaohs heart....

Pharaoh was hardened to CHOOSE what He Chose

As for me...

I can't say I truly understand it I just know what the scriptures say

I'll let you do all the explaining Gomer



So:

1) you have no problem in blaming God and making God culpable for the lost.

2) that God is not just, merciful or loving when He forces men to sin just so He can punish them.

3) the the man with one talent was JUSTIFIED in accusing God of being a hard man and that God forced him to bury His talent and God was unjust for casting him into outer darkness for something God forced him to do.

Offline Gomer

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #22 on: Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 16:21:14 »
I can't bother with all of that Gomer...I'm stuck on what the bible says, human wisdom ain't gonna cut it for me

I'm one of those dyed in the wool Isaiah 55:8-11 folks

I take the 11th verse of Isaiah 55 as God's way of saying what I'm trying to say

HIS WILL IS SOVEREIGN!

so is my word that goes out from my mouth:

It will not return to me empty,

but will accomplish what I desire

and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.




You're using human logic to have God act in unjust, unmerciful ways,  Should we cross out all the verses that say God is love, just and merciful?

I do not deny God accomplishes His will but He does not have to over-ride man's free will in the process and make men sin against his own will.

Offline gospel

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #23 on: Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 16:31:21 »
Quote
1) you have no problem in blaming God and making God culpable for the lost.

I'm not blaming God...you are! I'm just showing you what the scriptures say, specifically what God is saying in His Word, speaking for Himself

You're the one placing value judgments on His actions

Me....I am not so bold as to do so


Quote
2) that God is not just, merciful or loving when He forces men to sin just so He can punish them.

The scriptures say that God is Just and the Justifier, He is Merciful and He in fact is Love...GOD IS LOVE

Now what that means specifically is a little beyond my ability to explain in terms of trying to understand His Sovereign Will


Quote
3) the the man with one talent was JUSTIFIED in accusing God of being a hard man and that God forced him to bury His talent and God was unjust for casting him into outer darkness for something God forced him to do.

Huh?  ::headscratch::


Just goes to show you

There are Some things about God We just Do not Understand  ::shrug::

Offline gospel

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #24 on: Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 16:34:16 »
I can't bother with all of that Gomer...I'm stuck on what the bible says, human wisdom ain't gonna cut it for me

I'm one of those dyed in the wool Isaiah 55:8-11 folks

I take the 11th verse of Isaiah 55 as God's way of saying what I'm trying to say

HIS WILL IS SOVEREIGN!

so is my word that goes out from my mouth:

It will not return to me empty,

but will accomplish what I desire

and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.




You're using human logic to have God act in unjust, unmerciful ways,  Should we cross out all the verses that say God is love, just and merciful?

I do not deny God accomplishes His will but He does not have to over-ride man's free will in the process and make men sin against his own will.

Like I said if I could ask Jonah one question while he was in the belly of the whale it would be

"Hey dude, hows that free choice workin for ya?"

I'm certain he would answer

 ::announcment:: "I'll let you know when I get to Nineveh!"

I'm certain of it!

Offline candy

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #25 on: Tue Dec 20, 2011 - 16:38:50 »
Amen Gospel ::clappingoverhead::

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #26 on: Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 06:39:42 »
I can't bother with all of that Gomer...I'm stuck on what the bible says, human wisdom ain't gonna cut it for me

That is simply a ruse; even if you don't understand that it is.  It is your human wisdom that comes to your conclusion of what the Bible means by what it says.  You would like to present yourself as simply God's conduit.  You are not.  You are stuck, as are all the rest of us, with your own limited ability to read, interpret and comprehend what God has given to us as His written word.  I am very sorry, but you are not more Christian that the rest of us.

Offline fish153

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #27 on: Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 08:31:43 »
I can't bother with all of that Gomer...I'm stuck on what the bible says, human wisdom ain't gonna cut it for me

I'm one of those dyed in the wool Isaiah 55:8-11 folks

I take the 11th verse of Isaiah 55 as God's way of saying what I'm trying to say

HIS WILL IS SOVEREIGN!

so is my word that goes out from my mouth:

It will not return to me empty,

but will accomplish what I desire

and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.




You're using human logic to have God act in unjust, unmerciful ways,  Should we cross out all the verses that say God is love, just and merciful?

I do not deny God accomplishes His will but He does not have to over-ride man's free will in the process and make men sin against his own will.

Like I said if I could ask Jonah one question while he was in the belly of the whale it would be

"Hey dude, hows that free choice workin for ya?"

I'm certain he would answer

 ::announcment:: "I'll let you know when I get to Nineveh!"

I'm certain of it!

 ::amen!::

Offline Gomer

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #28 on: Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 10:50:19 »
Gomer: 1) you have no problem in blaming God and making God culpable for the lost.

I'm not blaming God...you are! I'm just showing you what the scriptures say, specifically what God is saying in His Word, speaking for Himself

You're the one placing value judgments on His actions

Me....I am not so bold as to do so

Yes you are putting blame on God just like the man with one talent.  If the only way I can have faith is by God giving it to me yet God does not give faith to me then who's to blame for my lack of faith?
No scripture makes God culpable for the lost.



Quote from: gospel
Gomer: 2) that God is not just, merciful or loving when He forces men to sin just so He can punish them.

The scriptures say that God is Just and the Justifier, He is Merciful and He in fact is Love...GOD IS LOVE

Now what that means specifically is a little beyond my ability to explain in terms of trying to understand His Sovereign Will

God forcing people to sin agaisnt their will then God punishes them for the sin He forced them to commit is not just, merciful or loving in any sense of the words.

Quote from: gospel
Gomer: 3) the the man with one talent was JUSTIFIED in accusing God of being a hard man and that God forced him to bury His talent and God was unjust for casting him into outer darkness for something God forced him to do.

Huh?  ::headscratch::


Just goes to show you

There are Some things about God We just Do not Understand  ::shrug::

You have created a theological error that you cannot resolve so you just try to explain it away as something that cannot be understood. That just don't get it.  You are actually taking side with the one talent man but cannot come out and say it.

Offline Gomer

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #29 on: Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 10:59:54 »
I can't bother with all of that Gomer...I'm stuck on what the bible says, human wisdom ain't gonna cut it for me

I'm one of those dyed in the wool Isaiah 55:8-11 folks

I take the 11th verse of Isaiah 55 as God's way of saying what I'm trying to say

HIS WILL IS SOVEREIGN!

so is my word that goes out from my mouth:

It will not return to me empty,

but will accomplish what I desire

and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.




You're using human logic to have God act in unjust, unmerciful ways,  Should we cross out all the verses that say God is love, just and merciful?

I do not deny God accomplishes His will but He does not have to over-ride man's free will in the process and make men sin against his own will.

Like I said if I could ask Jonah one question while he was in the belly of the whale it would be

"Hey dude, hows that free choice workin for ya?"

I'm certain he would answer

 ::announcment:: "I'll let you know when I get to Nineveh!"

I'm certain of it!


Jonah 1:1,2 "Now the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying, Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me."

If Jonah had no free will he would have gone to Nineveh just like a preprogrammed robot,  "But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD...", v3.

There's your free will.  God punished Jonah for disobeying and God has the right to punish those that disobey but because God punishes does not mean man has no free will.

After Jonah was punished God asked Jonah a second time, "And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying, Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee.", Jonah 3:1,2.  What did Jonah choose of HIS OWN WILL this second time to do? "So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD.", v3.  There's your free will again.  


Nowhere did God force Jonah to commit any sin against Jonah's will just so God could punish him.

Offline gospel

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #30 on: Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 11:49:48 »
I can't bother with all of that Gomer...I'm stuck on what the bible says, human wisdom ain't gonna cut it for me

I'm one of those dyed in the wool Isaiah 55:8-11 folks

I take the 11th verse of Isaiah 55 as God's way of saying what I'm trying to say

HIS WILL IS SOVEREIGN!

so is my word that goes out from my mouth:

It will not return to me empty,

but will accomplish what I desire

and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.




You're using human logic to have God act in unjust, unmerciful ways,  Should we cross out all the verses that say God is love, just and merciful?

I do not deny God accomplishes His will but He does not have to over-ride man's free will in the process and make men sin against his own will.

Like I said if I could ask Jonah one question while he was in the belly of the whale it would be

"Hey dude, hows that free choice workin for ya?"

I'm certain he would answer

 ::announcment:: "I'll let you know when I get to Nineveh!"

I'm certain of it!


Jonah 1:1,2 "Now the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying, Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me."

If Jonah had no free will he would have gone to Nineveh just like a preprogrammed robot,  "But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD...", v3.

There's your free will.  God punished Jonah for disobeying and God has the right to punish those that disobey but because God punishes does not mean man has no free will.

After Jonah was punished God asked Jonah a second time, "And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying, Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee.", Jonah 3:1,2.  What did Jonah choose of HIS OWN WILL this second time to do? "So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD.", v3.  There's your free will again.  


Nowhere did God force Jonah to commit any sin against Jonah's will just so God could punish him.

The point is....

Jonah ended up doing what God wanted him to do even though he didn't want to

The point is God's Will is Sovereign!

The question you have to ask is...If Jonah didn't want to go and chose not to go  why didn't God just find someone else to send to Nineveh?


cs80918

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #31 on: Wed Dec 21, 2011 - 23:52:35 »
If God made faith necessary for me to be saved, yet the only way I can obtain faith is if God gives it to me, then whose fault is it if I die not ever having faith?  It cannot be my fault for having faith was out of my control.  If God did not give me the required faith, then God is causing me to sin the sin of unbelief.  So we have God causing me to sin, then punishing me for the sin He casued me to commit.  THis would not be merciful, loving or just in any sense.  In Mt 25:24 the man with one talent went out and buried that talent, then when  God returned he tried to blame God for his own action.  It was God's fault for being a "hard man" that caused him to bury his one talent.  He tried to blame God for a free will choice he made and was cast into outer darkness, v30.

In the three verses you posted you try and have God cause people to sin just so He can punish them and God does not do this, it is not in His character to do so. Do parents make their children disobey them just so they can punish their children?  What would you think of parents that do such a thing?  God does not do such a thing either.  In the Hebrew language there is an idiom where an active verb is used to indicate that God actively did something when in reality God only allowed it to happen.  For example, it is impossible for God to lie so He does not cause people to believe lies for a loving God would not do such, but if one is determined  to believe lies then God will allow him to do so.


2 Thess 2:10,11 "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"

In verse 10 they already determined themselves to believe lies and in v11 God allows them to.

"Second, there is a common Hebrew idiom used throughout the Old Testament by which the permissive will of God is expressed in forceful, active jargon. The Lord is said to have “hardened Pharaoh’s heart

Offline Gomer

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #32 on: Thu Dec 22, 2011 - 11:46:25 »
I can't bother with all of that Gomer...I'm stuck on what the bible says, human wisdom ain't gonna cut it for me

I'm one of those dyed in the wool Isaiah 55:8-11 folks

I take the 11th verse of Isaiah 55 as God's way of saying what I'm trying to say

HIS WILL IS SOVEREIGN!

so is my word that goes out from my mouth:

It will not return to me empty,

but will accomplish what I desire

and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.




You're using human logic to have God act in unjust, unmerciful ways,  Should we cross out all the verses that say God is love, just and merciful?

I do not deny God accomplishes His will but He does not have to over-ride man's free will in the process and make men sin against his own will.

Like I said if I could ask Jonah one question while he was in the belly of the whale it would be

"Hey dude, hows that free choice workin for ya?"

I'm certain he would answer

 ::announcment:: "I'll let you know when I get to Nineveh!"

I'm certain of it!


Jonah 1:1,2 "Now the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying, Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me."

If Jonah had no free will he would have gone to Nineveh just like a preprogrammed robot,  "But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD...", v3.

There's your free will.  God punished Jonah for disobeying and God has the right to punish those that disobey but because God punishes does not mean man has no free will.

After Jonah was punished God asked Jonah a second time, "And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying, Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee.", Jonah 3:1,2.  What did Jonah choose of HIS OWN WILL this second time to do? "So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD.", v3.  There's your free will again.  


Nowhere did God force Jonah to commit any sin against Jonah's will just so God could punish him.

The point is....

Jonah ended up doing what God wanted him to do even though he didn't want to

The point is God's Will is Sovereign!

The question you have to ask is...If Jonah didn't want to go and chose not to go  why didn't God just find someone else to send to Nineveh?



I do not think anyone here would argue that God's will is not Sovereign.  But God's Sovereignty does not mean God causes men to sin just so He can punish man. Nowhere did God force Jonah into committing sin just so God can punish him.  The context shows that Jonah had free will and in Jonah 3:3 says ""So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD."  Jonah went of his own free will.

Offline Teresa

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #33 on: Fri Jan 13, 2012 - 05:26:53 »
This the type of classic reasoning which caused me to start this thread and all I can tell you Gomer is this...

All I know is if God, for whatever reason hardens your heart...your heart will truly be hardened and one thing for sure....if He does harden it,

...He has His reasons and I for one would not question it. 
I think Gomer has the right approach to this question.  It is not just a case of classic reasoning. It is right reasoning.

The cases in the Bible where God hardened someone's heart (pharaoh for instance) does not show that He did this to damn them.  As I said in reply to you on another discussion, there is nothing there that shows that having done so, God has therefore predestined them to hell.

We can trust our reason because it is a gift from God. It is what separates us from all the lower forms of animals and it is also through this that He speaks to us.

We must not lay at God's feet the evils that we do, all because we are unable to discern what He means by His Word. When we do this, we make God evil for it means that all the evils caused by the suicide bomber, Hitler, serial killer, Pol Pot, etc were all done by God directly by causing these men to do these.  These men are therefore just mere puppets in god's manipulative hand. That makes god as evil as all these heinous people combined.




Offline Teresa

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #34 on: Fri Jan 13, 2012 - 05:30:08 »

I do not think anyone here would argue that God's will is not Sovereign.  But God's Sovereignty does not mean God causes men to sin just so He can punish man. Nowhere did God force Jonah into committing sin just so God can punish him.  The context shows that Jonah had free will and in Jonah 3:3 says ""So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD."  Jonah went of his own free will.
Excellent response! ::applause::

 

     
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