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Author Topic: Some things God Does We Do not Understand  (Read 4680 times)

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Offline Gomer

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2011, 02:57:05 PM »
Quote
Just as in Acts 2:23, God used the Jews to accomplish His own will.  The Jews thought they were fulfilling their plan in murdering the Messiah when in reality they were fulling God's plan yet God never made the Jews commit murder against their own will.

You can call it whatever you want...
You can twist and bend it into any shape you want trying to explain it

I can't explain it and that is simply because I do not completely understand it

All I do know is what the bible says....

Here is another one

While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.John 17:12

God said what?

Seems to me
Before Judas betrayed Jesus,  
Before the Last Supper,
Jesus already knew he would betray Him and worse yet,
Jesus already considered Judas doomed and worse
Jesus said Judas was doomed!

Now You explain it....admittedly I can't

I just know what it says....

JUDAS WAS DOOMED and to me that's a little like being destined except with dark consequences and a bad ending

What do you think?  ::shrug::





The scripture to be fulfilled in Jn 17:12 is most likely Psa 41:9 "Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up [his] heel against me."

Judas said "I have sinned" he did not say God made me do it.  God foreknew what Judas would do and God used the choices Judas made to accomplish His own will but God never forced/predetermined Judas to sin.

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2011, 02:57:05 PM »

cs80918

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2011, 03:01:41 PM »
If God made faith necessary for me to be saved, yet the only way I can obtain faith is if God gives it to me, then whose fault is it if I die not ever having faith?  It cannot be my fault for having faith was out of my control.  If God did not give me the required faith, then God is causing me to sin the sin of unbelief.  So we have God causing me to sin, then punishing me for the sin He casued me to commit.  THis would not be merciful, loving or just in any sense.  In Mt 25:24 the man with one talent went out and buried that talent, then when  God returned he tried to blame God for his own action.  It was God's fault for being a "hard man" that caused him to bury his one talent.  He tried to blame God for a free will choice he made and was cast into outer darkness, v30.

In the three verses you posted you try and have God cause people to sin just so He can punish them and God does not do this, it is not in His character to do so. Do parents make their children disobey them just so they can punish their children?  What would you think of parents that do such a thing?  God does not do such a thing either.  In the Hebrew language there is an idiom where an active verb is used to indicate that God actively did something when in reality God only allowed it to happen.  For example, it is impossible for God to lie so He does not cause people to believe lies for a loving God would not do such, but if one is determined  to believe lies then God will allow him to do so.


2 Thess 2:10,11 "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"

In verse 10 they already determined themselves to believe lies and in v11 God allows them to.

"Second, there is a common Hebrew idiom used throughout the Old Testament by which the permissive will of God is expressed in forceful, active jargon. The Lord is said to have “hardened Pharaoh’s heart

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2011, 03:01:41 PM »

Offline gospel

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2011, 03:03:30 PM »
All I know is whatever God wants God gets and rightfully.  God chooses to do things that serve His own purpose.  He may cause us to do or say something that determines an outcome for someone else.  God, of course, knows the plan of all of us.  His agenda is what we should strive to fulfill.  If God tells us to do something, we should just do it with no questions asked.  If it truly is from God, then why ask?  We know God has a divine plan.  Hopefully, through the resurrection of Jesus, we'll be a part of His plan.  It seems so to me.  All power and glory to Jesus Christ who made it all possible for us.
Candy

You are exactly right Candy!

God's will is sovereign in ways none of us can truly understand or comprehend

Doesn't Sovereign mean in simple terms

His Will trumps my own


  ::announcment:: He's the beginning and He's the ending

WILL SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN THAT!

Jesus is the author and the finisher

Now ....I'm not a Rhodes scholar but doesn't that mean He wrote the story? Doesn't the writer ultimately know what His characters will do or at the very least...where they will end up?

It would've been something else to meet up with Jonah in the belly of the fish just to ask him one question

"Hey dude, hows that free choice workin for ya?"

He'd probably answer

"I'll let you know when I get to Nineveh!"  rofl

Offline gospel

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2011, 03:08:22 PM »
Quote
Judas said "I have sinned" he did not say God made me do it.  God foreknew what Judas would do and God used the choices Judas made to accomplish His own will but God never forced/predetermined Judas to sin.

Well you're the one trying to explain it...not me

All I'm saying is before Judas CHOSE

Jesus said Judas was doomed

In other words it was a done deal

Judas was doomed to CHOOSE what He CHOSE

In the same way

Once God said He would harden Pharaohs heart....

Pharaoh was hardened to CHOOSE what He Chose

As for me...

I can't say I truly understand it I just know what the scriptures say

I'll let you do all the explaining Gomer


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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2011, 03:08:22 PM »

Offline Gomer

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2011, 03:10:37 PM »
If God made faith necessary for me to be saved, yet the only way I can obtain faith is if God gives it to me, then whose fault is it if I die not ever having faith?  It cannot be my fault for having faith was out of my control.  If God did not give me the required faith, then God is causing me to sin the sin of unbelief.  So we have God causing me to sin, then punishing me for the sin He casued me to commit.  THis would not be merciful, loving or just in any sense.  In Mt 25:24 the man with one talent went out and buried that talent, then when  God returned he tried to blame God for his own action.  It was God's fault for being a "hard man" that caused him to bury his one talent.  He tried to blame God for a free will choice he made and was cast into outer darkness, v30.

In the three verses you posted you try and have God cause people to sin just so He can punish them and God does not do this, it is not in His character to do so. Do parents make their children disobey them just so they can punish their children?  What would you think of parents that do such a thing?  God does not do such a thing either.  In the Hebrew language there is an idiom where an active verb is used to indicate that God actively did something when in reality God only allowed it to happen.  For example, it is impossible for God to lie so He does not cause people to believe lies for a loving God would not do such, but if one is determined  to believe lies then God will allow him to do so.


2 Thess 2:10,11 "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"

In verse 10 they already determined themselves to believe lies and in v11 God allows them to.

"Second, there is a common Hebrew idiom used throughout the Old Testament by which the permissive will of God is expressed in forceful, active jargon. The Lord is said to have “hardened Pharaoh’s heart

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2011, 03:10:37 PM »



Offline gospel

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2011, 03:14:24 PM »
I can't bother with all of that Gomer...I'm stuck on what the bible says, human wisdom ain't gonna cut it for me

I'm one of those dyed in the wool Isaiah 55:8-11 folks

I take the 11th verse of Isaiah 55 as God's way of saying what I'm trying to say

HIS WILL IS SOVEREIGN!

so is my word that goes out from my mouth:

It will not return to me empty,

but will accomplish what I desire

and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.



Offline Gomer

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2011, 03:14:46 PM »
Quote
Judas said "I have sinned" he did not say God made me do it.  God foreknew what Judas would do and God used the choices Judas made to accomplish His own will but God never forced/predetermined Judas to sin.

Well you're the one trying to explain it...not me

All I'm saying is before Judas CHOSE

Jesus said Judas was doomed

In other words it was a done deal

Judas was doomed to CHOOSE what He CHOSE

In the same way

Once God said He would harden Pharaohs heart....

Pharaoh was hardened to CHOOSE what He Chose

As for me...

I can't say I truly understand it I just know what the scriptures say

I'll let you do all the explaining Gomer



So:

1) you have no problem in blaming God and making God culpable for the lost.

2) that God is not just, merciful or loving when He forces men to sin just so He can punish them.

3) the the man with one talent was JUSTIFIED in accusing God of being a hard man and that God forced him to bury His talent and God was unjust for casting him into outer darkness for something God forced him to do.

Offline Gomer

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2011, 03:21:14 PM »
I can't bother with all of that Gomer...I'm stuck on what the bible says, human wisdom ain't gonna cut it for me

I'm one of those dyed in the wool Isaiah 55:8-11 folks

I take the 11th verse of Isaiah 55 as God's way of saying what I'm trying to say

HIS WILL IS SOVEREIGN!

so is my word that goes out from my mouth:

It will not return to me empty,

but will accomplish what I desire

and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.




You're using human logic to have God act in unjust, unmerciful ways,  Should we cross out all the verses that say God is love, just and merciful?

I do not deny God accomplishes His will but He does not have to over-ride man's free will in the process and make men sin against his own will.

Offline gospel

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2011, 03:31:21 PM »
Quote
1) you have no problem in blaming God and making God culpable for the lost.

I'm not blaming God...you are! I'm just showing you what the scriptures say, specifically what God is saying in His Word, speaking for Himself

You're the one placing value judgments on His actions

Me....I am not so bold as to do so


Quote
2) that God is not just, merciful or loving when He forces men to sin just so He can punish them.

The scriptures say that God is Just and the Justifier, He is Merciful and He in fact is Love...GOD IS LOVE

Now what that means specifically is a little beyond my ability to explain in terms of trying to understand His Sovereign Will


Quote
3) the the man with one talent was JUSTIFIED in accusing God of being a hard man and that God forced him to bury His talent and God was unjust for casting him into outer darkness for something God forced him to do.

Huh?  ::headscratch::


Just goes to show you

There are Some things about God We just Do not Understand  ::shrug::

Offline gospel

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2011, 03:34:16 PM »
I can't bother with all of that Gomer...I'm stuck on what the bible says, human wisdom ain't gonna cut it for me

I'm one of those dyed in the wool Isaiah 55:8-11 folks

I take the 11th verse of Isaiah 55 as God's way of saying what I'm trying to say

HIS WILL IS SOVEREIGN!

so is my word that goes out from my mouth:

It will not return to me empty,

but will accomplish what I desire

and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.




You're using human logic to have God act in unjust, unmerciful ways,  Should we cross out all the verses that say God is love, just and merciful?

I do not deny God accomplishes His will but He does not have to over-ride man's free will in the process and make men sin against his own will.

Like I said if I could ask Jonah one question while he was in the belly of the whale it would be

"Hey dude, hows that free choice workin for ya?"

I'm certain he would answer

 ::announcment:: "I'll let you know when I get to Nineveh!"

I'm certain of it!

Offline candy

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2011, 03:38:50 PM »
Amen Gospel ::clappingoverhead::

Offline Jimmy

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2011, 05:39:42 AM »
I can't bother with all of that Gomer...I'm stuck on what the bible says, human wisdom ain't gonna cut it for me

That is simply a ruse; even if you don't understand that it is.  It is your human wisdom that comes to your conclusion of what the Bible means by what it says.  You would like to present yourself as simply God's conduit.  You are not.  You are stuck, as are all the rest of us, with your own limited ability to read, interpret and comprehend what God has given to us as His written word.  I am very sorry, but you are not more Christian that the rest of us.

Offline fish153

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2011, 07:31:43 AM »
I can't bother with all of that Gomer...I'm stuck on what the bible says, human wisdom ain't gonna cut it for me

I'm one of those dyed in the wool Isaiah 55:8-11 folks

I take the 11th verse of Isaiah 55 as God's way of saying what I'm trying to say

HIS WILL IS SOVEREIGN!

so is my word that goes out from my mouth:

It will not return to me empty,

but will accomplish what I desire

and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.




You're using human logic to have God act in unjust, unmerciful ways,  Should we cross out all the verses that say God is love, just and merciful?

I do not deny God accomplishes His will but He does not have to over-ride man's free will in the process and make men sin against his own will.

Like I said if I could ask Jonah one question while he was in the belly of the whale it would be

"Hey dude, hows that free choice workin for ya?"

I'm certain he would answer

 ::announcment:: "I'll let you know when I get to Nineveh!"

I'm certain of it!

 ::amen!::

Offline Gomer

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2011, 09:50:19 AM »
Gomer: 1) you have no problem in blaming God and making God culpable for the lost.

I'm not blaming God...you are! I'm just showing you what the scriptures say, specifically what God is saying in His Word, speaking for Himself

You're the one placing value judgments on His actions

Me....I am not so bold as to do so

Yes you are putting blame on God just like the man with one talent.  If the only way I can have faith is by God giving it to me yet God does not give faith to me then who's to blame for my lack of faith?
No scripture makes God culpable for the lost.



Quote from: gospel
Gomer: 2) that God is not just, merciful or loving when He forces men to sin just so He can punish them.

The scriptures say that God is Just and the Justifier, He is Merciful and He in fact is Love...GOD IS LOVE

Now what that means specifically is a little beyond my ability to explain in terms of trying to understand His Sovereign Will

God forcing people to sin agaisnt their will then God punishes them for the sin He forced them to commit is not just, merciful or loving in any sense of the words.

Quote from: gospel
Gomer: 3) the the man with one talent was JUSTIFIED in accusing God of being a hard man and that God forced him to bury His talent and God was unjust for casting him into outer darkness for something God forced him to do.

Huh?  ::headscratch::


Just goes to show you

There are Some things about God We just Do not Understand  ::shrug::

You have created a theological error that you cannot resolve so you just try to explain it away as something that cannot be understood. That just don't get it.  You are actually taking side with the one talent man but cannot come out and say it.

Offline Gomer

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Re: Some things God Does We Do not Understand
« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2011, 09:59:54 AM »
I can't bother with all of that Gomer...I'm stuck on what the bible says, human wisdom ain't gonna cut it for me

I'm one of those dyed in the wool Isaiah 55:8-11 folks

I take the 11th verse of Isaiah 55 as God's way of saying what I'm trying to say

HIS WILL IS SOVEREIGN!

so is my word that goes out from my mouth:

It will not return to me empty,

but will accomplish what I desire

and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.




You're using human logic to have God act in unjust, unmerciful ways,  Should we cross out all the verses that say God is love, just and merciful?

I do not deny God accomplishes His will but He does not have to over-ride man's free will in the process and make men sin against his own will.

Like I said if I could ask Jonah one question while he was in the belly of the whale it would be

"Hey dude, hows that free choice workin for ya?"

I'm certain he would answer

 ::announcment:: "I'll let you know when I get to Nineveh!"

I'm certain of it!


Jonah 1:1,2 "Now the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying, Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me."

If Jonah had no free will he would have gone to Nineveh just like a preprogrammed robot,  "But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD...", v3.

There's your free will.  God punished Jonah for disobeying and God has the right to punish those that disobey but because God punishes does not mean man has no free will.

After Jonah was punished God asked Jonah a second time, "And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying, Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee.", Jonah 3:1,2.  What did Jonah choose of HIS OWN WILL this second time to do? "So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD.", v3.  There's your free will again.  


Nowhere did God force Jonah to commit any sin against Jonah's will just so God could punish him.