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Author Topic: The Holiness of God vs the Wickedness of Man  (Read 4258 times)
Jimmy
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« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2008, 08:22:56 AM »
Quote from: Ek Pyros on August 07, 2008, 08:05:22 PM
Harold, you're confusing categories.  The Bible doesn't speak to the issue you're raising in Job.  It answers your issue in other places, such as Romans.

Allow me to quote it and see how it fits into your schema:

Romans 3:9What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
 10as it is written,
         "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
    11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
         THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
    12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
         THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
         THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
    13"THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
         WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,"
         "THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
    14"WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS";
    15"THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
    16DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
    17AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
    18"THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."

And please see Hobbit's post.  Theology: the study of God.  You make it out to be heathen conception.

You have turn certain words from this passage into hard theological statements of fact.  You have done this repeatedly.  And you have turned to this particular passage often to make your point.

Let me add some highligting to that passage and then ask you to intepret it in the same manner that you have interpreted what you highlighted.

10as it is written,
         "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
    11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
         THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
    12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
         THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
         THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
    13"THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
         WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,"
         "THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
    14"WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS";
    15"THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
    16DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
    17AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
    18"THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."


The next thing that you need to do is to define some terms.  What is meant by righteous or good as those words are used here?
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Harold
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« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2008, 11:28:38 AM »
Quote
You lied up there to Hobbit...You never said theology/opinion--just theology.  That's not very honest of you, Harold...

Quote from: Hobbit on August 07, 2008, 03:43:17 PM
Quote from: Harold on August 07, 2008, 01:24:05 PM
Dude?

You still have not pointed out anything as far as what God has said in Job.

If your theology is correct then by using the verses in Job you should be able to explain yourself.

When the verses agree with your man-made theology you say, see......When they don't, you cast them off and get theological.

FTL

Please pardon my intrusion, but, when  we are seriously seeking meaning from studying God,s truth, we are  ALL engagining in THEOLOGY!

Agree! 


Hobitt



Your problem EK you don't read before you write. You really can't have a discussion without slandering other people can you.

FTL
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Rom 1:17  For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith." (NIV)

I neither agree nor disagree with any thing posted on the board, I am interjecting thoughts not my beliefs, unless so stated.
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« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2008, 11:28:38 AM »
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Ek Pyros
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« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2008, 11:52:18 AM »
Quote from: Jimmy on August 09, 2008, 08:22:56 AM
Quote from: Ek Pyros on August 07, 2008, 08:05:22 PM
Harold, you're confusing categories.  The Bible doesn't speak to the issue you're raising in Job.  It answers your issue in other places, such as Romans.

Allow me to quote it and see how it fits into your schema:

Romans 3:9What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
 10as it is written,
         "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
    11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
         THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
    12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
         THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
         THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
    13"THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
         WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,"
         "THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
    14"WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS";
    15"THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
    16DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
    17AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
    18"THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."

And please see Hobbit's post.  Theology: the study of God.  You make it out to be heathen conception.

You have turn certain words from this passage into hard theological statements of fact.  You have done this repeatedly.  And you have turned to this particular passage often to make your point.

Let me add some highligting to that passage and then ask you to intepret it in the same manner that you have interpreted what you highlighted.

10as it is written,
         "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
    11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
         THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
    12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
         THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
         THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
    13"THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
         WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,"
         "THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
    14"WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS";
    15"THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
    16DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
    17AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
    18"THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."


The next thing that you need to do is to define some terms.  What is meant by righteous or good as those words are used here?
I'm not sure what you're getting at, Jimmy.  Those are figurative images of the depravity of man.  Swift feet to bloodshed brings to mind the Proverbs or maybe the Pslams--the idea that evil men are plotters of violence.

Righteous and good seem fairly self-explanatory.  What do you see faulty in my use of this passage?
Quote from: Harold on August 09, 2008, 11:28:38 AM
Quote
You lied up there to Hobbit...You never said theology/opinion--just theology.  That's not very honest of you, Harold...

Quote from: Hobbit on August 07, 2008, 03:43:17 PM
Quote from: Harold on August 07, 2008, 01:24:05 PM
Dude?

You still have not pointed out anything as far as what God has said in Job.

If your theology is correct then by using the verses in Job you should be able to explain yourself.

When the verses agree with your man-made theology you say, see......When they don't, you cast them off and get theological.

FTL

Please pardon my intrusion, but, when  we are seriously seeking meaning from studying God,s truth, we are  ALL engagining in THEOLOGY!

Agree! 


Hobitt



Your problem EK you don't read before you write. You really can't have a discussion without slandering other people can you.

FTL
Harold, you have many problems, namely never using exegesis to support a position.  But I missed where you used the word "opinion" which is why, again, I say you lied to Hobbit and that's not very nice.
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Jimmy
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« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2008, 12:43:44 PM »
Quote from: Ek Pyros on August 09, 2008, 11:52:18 AM
I'm not sure what you're getting at, Jimmy.  Those are figurative images of the depravity of man.  Swift feet to bloodshed brings to mind the Proverbs or maybe the Pslams--the idea that evil men are plotters of violence.

Righteous and good seem fairly self-explanatory.  What do you see faulty in my use of this passage?

Do you really think that verses 10-12 are any less figurative images than verses 13-19?


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Harold
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« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2008, 12:46:16 PM »
I have explained clearly what I believe the pasage to says, I just don't use man-made theology to explain it, God explains Himself just fine.

The definition of theology states it is an opinion, I'm sure Hobbit is more than able to read the definition to get the point, you don't seem to be able to get it at all.

FTL

Quote
2 a: a theological theory or system <Thomist theology> <a theology of atonement> b: a distinctive body of theological opinion.

God's opinion is the only one that counts. I said man-made theology/opinion.
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Rom 1:17  For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith." (NIV)

I neither agree nor disagree with any thing posted on the board, I am interjecting thoughts not my beliefs, unless so stated.
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« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2008, 01:03:35 PM »
In the end. I prefer the clearest route.    He says obey.  I want to obey.  He says believe.  I want to believe.  He says repent.  I want to repent.   He says he saves me by grace.  I accept that.  He says I am saved by faith.  I accept that.   Immersion was an expected response.  I respond.   Trying to explain and prove that I have God all figured out would seem a bit arrogant.  And he did tell me to humble myself.
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« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2008, 01:03:35 PM »
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Harold
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« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2008, 01:13:26 PM »
Quote from: zoonance on August 09, 2008, 01:03:35 PM
In the end. I prefer the clearest route.    He says obey.  I want to obey.  He says believe.  I want to believe.  He says repent.  I want to repent.   He says he saves me by grace.  I accept that.  He says I am saved by faith.  I accept that.   Immersion was an expected response.  I respond.   Trying to explain and prove that I have God all figured out would seem a bit arrogant.  And he did tell me to humble myself.

Zoo how's it going. By doing what you just said aren't we all humbling ourselves to God's Word. I agree with you my brother.

FTL

I believe God.
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Rom 1:17  For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith." (NIV)

I neither agree nor disagree with any thing posted on the board, I am interjecting thoughts not my beliefs, unless so stated.
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« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2008, 02:52:53 PM »
Quote from: Harold on August 09, 2008, 12:46:16 PM
I have explained clearly what I believe the pasage to says, I just don't use man-made theology to explain it, God explains Himself just fine.

The definition of theology states it is an opinion, I'm sure Hobbit is more than able to read the definition to get the point, you don't seem to be able to get it at all.

FTL

Quote
2 a: a theological theory or system <Thomist theology> <a theology of atonement> b: a distinctive body of theological opinion.

God's opinion is the only one that counts. I said man-made theology/opinion.
[/quote}

The definition of theology states it is an opinion, I'm sure Hobbit is more than able to read the definition to get the point, you don't seem to be able to get it at all.

Friend Harrold,

I am not a biblical scholor.  I possess no degrees. I have no skill in greek or hebrew. I  am not an expert in the cultures of ancient Palistine. But I do read and study my Bible.
 I do seek the power of the HolySpirit to illuminate the truth of God's HOLY word to my mind and heart.

Early on in my pursuit of the truth I came upon the following:1Cr 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.   
1Cr 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Sound teachers, are a gift from God, and should not be dispised.Sure, we should test their teaching by the WORD. But to ignore them simply because the are mee men, isto toss out the baby with the bathwater!

Your Brother

Hobbit
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Ek Pyros
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« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2008, 07:42:40 PM »
Quote from: Jimmy on August 09, 2008, 12:43:44 PM
Quote from: Ek Pyros on August 09, 2008, 11:52:18 AM
I'm not sure what you're getting at, Jimmy.  Those are figurative images of the depravity of man.  Swift feet to bloodshed brings to mind the Proverbs or maybe the Pslams--the idea that evil men are plotters of violence.

Righteous and good seem fairly self-explanatory.  What do you see faulty in my use of this passage?

Do you really think that verses 10-12 are any less figurative images than verses 13-19?
I'm not sure they're even figurative images.  Seems like we'd be comparing apples and oranges.
Quote from: Harold
I have explained clearly what I believe the pasage to says, I just don't use man-made theology to explain it, God explains Himself just fine.
If by "explained" you mean "made assertions alone," I agree.  But that's not what I asked for: I would like some exegesis.  Go through the text with me, point by point.  "You're just blinded by man-made theology" doesn't accomplish anything.

I agree that God explains Himself just fine; however, I think you've misunderstood Him.  That's why we should be trying to meet on a level playing field (exegesis), instead of accusing the other of making something up.  Let me know when you can do that.
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« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2008, 11:10:23 AM »
Quote from: Charles Sloan on August 07, 2008, 11:22:08 AM
"The Holiness of God vs the Wickedness of Man"

I'm placing my bets on the Holiness of God.
What's the payout on that?  I'm guessing the odds are pretty similar to the odds on The Ocean vs A Single Candle.
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« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2008, 11:10:23 AM »
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« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2008, 11:07:29 AM »
Quote from: zoonance on August 09, 2008, 01:03:35 PM
In the end. I prefer the clearest route.    He says obey.  I want to obey.  He says believe.  I want to believe.  He says repent.  I want to repent.   He says he saves me by grace.  I accept that.  He says I am saved by faith.  I accept that.   Immersion was an expected response.  I respond.   Trying to explain and prove that I have God all figured out would seem a bit arrogant.  And he did tell me to humble myself.

Zoo, I like what you said.  Just wanted to say so.

What I find as a blessing is the desire that you have to obey, to believe, to repent, to be baptized.  And you do those things because there is a heart's desire to do.  Sounds like you love the Lord and it is that love that moves you to want to do all that He says.  And that love existed before you did those things your heart desired to do. 

You provided an image of the point I have tried to make - something happens that changes our hearts.  I believe that something is the work of His Spirit in us giving that desire you spoke beautifully about.
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Ephesians 2:8-10  Who saves, how He saves, why He saves.

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
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« Reply #41 on: August 22, 2008, 10:55:47 PM »
Quote from: zoonance on August 09, 2008, 01:03:35 PM
In the end. I prefer the clearest route.    He says obey.  I want to obey.  He says believe.  I want to believe.  He says repent.  I want to repent.   He says he saves me by grace.  I accept that.  He says I am saved by faith.  I accept that.   Immersion was an expected response.  I respond.   Trying to explain and prove that I have God all figured out would seem a bit arrogant.  And he did tell me to humble myself.

And it is all meaningless, vapid, nothing, indeed a striving after the wind, without a changed heart.......in the final analysis, not much humility there at all, if any........
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« Reply #42 on: August 24, 2008, 06:52:21 PM »
Depravity, whether it is viewed from a Arminian or Calvinist position acknowledges the fact that man cannot go to God on his own.

GTM
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« Reply #42 on: August 24, 2008, 06:52:21 PM »
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Jimmy
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« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2008, 07:08:46 AM »
Quote from: GTM on August 24, 2008, 06:52:21 PM
Depravity, whether it is viewed from a Arminian or Calvinist position acknowledges the fact that man cannot go to God on his own.

GTM

The fact that John Calvin and Jacobus Arminius both believed in total depravity does not make it so.  Depracity and total depravity are two different concepts.  Total depravity declares that man will not ever respond in any positive way towards God.  It basically says that unless God saves a person, He has no ability to even influence him in a positive way.  That is not scripturally true.  Jesus said, It is written in the Prophets, "And they shall all be taught of God." Therefore everyone who hears and learns from the Father comes to Me.   The word of God and those who preach and teach it are God's primary method of reaching out to man.
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« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2008, 10:35:29 PM »
Jimmy,

You quoted:

"And they shall all be taught of God." Therefore everyone who hears and learns from the Father comes to Me.   

There it is. Who ever learns from the Father.

GTM
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