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Author Topic: The Problem of Romans 9  (Read 1662 times)
llewksgood
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« on: January 05, 2009, 05:02:01 PM »
Romans 9, how should we read it?

Some read it as a part of a whole - that Paul has taken a single topic and, from the very outset laid out a single thought - that we are either predestined to salvation through election, or predestined to destruction. Is this the way Paul wrote it?

Others read it as one would a conversational letter, that Paul is dealing with many issues, and many facets of those issues, thus Romans 9 is a peice of conversation that only loosely relates to the whole of Paul's letter. This is the way I read it.

There are possibly equal difficulties in handling romans either way. As we have seen from other posts, using Romans 9 one could argue [although I believe incorrectly] that God alone chooses who will be saved, and that we have no freedom to choose Christ, or hell. However, 1 chapter later - in chapter 10 we run into difficulty with this interpretation when we read Paul's words, "Whoever calls upon the Lord will be saved." The use of the term "whoever" suggests the freedom to choose. It cannot be whoever if some are disallowed it.

Any time we take a single, or a few protions of Scripture we are inclined to run into difficulties in holding to the truth.

Who knows the real question Paul is addressing here [without looking]? There were huge objections to Paul taking the gospel to the gentiles, and that, appears to me to be the reason of Paul's discourse here. It answers this objection that God is free to save gentiles as well as Jews - that is the matter in which he chooses to use his sovereignity. When we try to read more into it than intended we end up with confusion.
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Tantor
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« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2009, 05:10:57 PM »
I suggest you do a greek word study on the chapter instead of just using the paraphrased english.
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« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2009, 05:10:57 PM »
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llewksgood
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« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2009, 11:54:42 AM »
A word for word study becomes semantics - something Paul instructed Timothy to avoid. I think I would be terribly annoyed if I wrote you a letter and you started pulling it to bits word by word. "The letter killeth, but the spirit gives life."

A letter is never intended to be studied word for word, and each one's possible meaning. That is why there is so much confusion.
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Lee Freeman
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« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2009, 12:35:13 PM »
Quote from: llewksgood on January 06, 2009, 11:54:42 AM
A word for word study becomes semantics - something Paul instructed Timothy to avoid. I think I would be terribly annoyed if I wrote you a letter and you started pulling it to bits word by word. "The letter killeth, but the spirit gives life."

A letter is never intended to be studied word for word, and each one's possible meaning. That is why there is so much confusion.

Considering that Romans 9 was written 2,000 years ago in a now-dead language few Westerns read or speak I don't think breaking it down word-for-word is a bad thing at all. That is, after all, what the translators have to do to produce the English Bibles we read. When Paul said:

As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work—which is by faith. . . . Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk. They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

He was referring to the gnostic heresy, which reinterpretred the creation story with the Hebrew God YHWH being the bad guy for creating physical matter. The gnostic creation myths were long and complicated, today reading more like science fiction or fantasy than theology. The gnostics also had complex spiritual genealogies and hierarchies for Jesus and the other heavenly beings. This bizarre teaching is what Paul was trying to stop at Ephesus, rather than an honest investigation of what the scriptures really teach.

Paul's letters were written to specific historical churches dealing with specific theological and moral problems (though a few were designed to circulate among many churches). Upon receiving one of his letters (or a letter from another apostle), a literate person from within the church would read the whole letter aloud, and then the church would discuss it.

Pax.
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"Brethren, for the sake of our souls, let us never get too big to restudy our position." - Bro. KC Moser (1893-1976)

"I propose to finish my course without ever, even for one monent, engaging in partisan strife with anybody about anything." - Elder T. B. Larimore (1843-1929)

"Let the unity of Christians be our polar star." - Elder Barton Warren Stone (1772-1844)

"It is wrong to make anything a condition of fellowship which is not essential to salvation. We draw the line here. That which will damn a soul and separate us in the next world should divide us in this; nothing else should. " - FD Srygley (1856-1900)
transparent.tulip
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« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2009, 02:41:00 PM »
Quote from: llewksgood on January 06, 2009, 11:54:42 AM
A word for word study becomes semantics - something Paul instructed Timothy to avoid. I think I would be terribly annoyed if I wrote you a letter and you started pulling it to bits word by word. "The letter killeth, but the spirit gives life."

A letter is never intended to be studied word for word, and each one's possible meaning. That is why there is so much confusion.

timothy read it in it's original language so he wouldn't have had to pull it apart. Read it in the Greek like Timothy. God's word is not just a letter. And it is to be studied word for word.
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2 Corinthians 13:5 (ESV)
5Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!
marc
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« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2009, 02:43:12 PM »
But it was originally, primarily a letter.  If we forget that, if we let our theology get in the way of original intent, we have gotten off the path and started to create rather than understand.
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« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2009, 02:43:12 PM »
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transparent.tulip
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« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2009, 03:00:55 PM »
Quote from: marc on April 10, 2009, 02:43:12 PM
But it was originally, primarily a letter.  If we forget that, if we let our theology get in the way of original intent, we have gotten off the path and started to create rather than understand.

i don't disagree it was a letter, i just said it is not just a letter but also God's word.
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2 Corinthians 13:5 (ESV)
5Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!
joan
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« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2009, 08:21:06 AM »
I don't see any contradiction between chapter 9 and 10.  Whoever calls upon the Lord will be saved means anyone who does... and nobody can call upon the Lord unless the Lord wills it, therefore anyone who calls upon the Lord is someone whom the Lord has already called to call upon him, and the Lord can call anyone he likes to call upon him, and whoever does... will be saved.

  Rolling

Shall I go around again?
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Jimmy
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« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2009, 08:25:47 AM »
Quote from: joan on July 13, 2009, 08:21:06 AM
I don't see any contradiction between chapter 9 and 10.  Whoever calls upon the Lord will be saved means anyone who does... and nobody can call upon the Lord unless the Lord wills it, therefore anyone who calls upon the Lord is someone whom the Lord has already called to call upon him, and the Lord can call anyone he likes to call upon him, and whoever does... will be saved.

  Rolling

Shall I go around again?

God's chooses who he will save and He chooses who He will use as fire wood in the lake of fire.  Is that about right?
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joan
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« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2009, 11:22:56 PM »
"God's chooses who he will save and He chooses who He will use as fire wood in the lake of fire.  Is that about right?"



I understand your anger.  It seems like such a waste that God would choose to send any to hell...   

But we are all fit for hell.  Because of our sin, we are depraved and utterly without hope.  We are so horrible and depraved and wicked that God would be doing us and the rest of the universe a favor if he put us all out of our misery... wouldn't you agree?
Or do you think that, in our natural selves, there is still some part of us worth saving?  Some good in us that exists apart from God?

Romans 3:10-12, "There is no one righteous, not even one;there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless... "

So, if we agree that God is doing a good thing by putting an end to us, our sin, and our corruption, then how can we argue with God when he wants to be extra generous to some by actually saving us from the fire, through the death of his beloved son? 

We would only argue if we think it is unfair that God would choose to destroy some and choose to save others.  Rather, we should marvel that God would even choose to save any at all!  What a wonderful, generous, God he is.  All praise to him!
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« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2009, 11:22:56 PM »
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Yukerboy
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« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2009, 05:43:43 PM »
Quote
God's chooses who he will save and He chooses who He will use as fire wood in the lake of fire.  Is that about right?

Amen!
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janine
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« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2009, 06:01:13 PM »
Oh, Lord, save me from the terrible TULIP.

"The Lord is not willing that any should perish" is Scripture, too.
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joan
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« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2009, 05:57:30 AM »
Yes, it is.  :)  but people are perishing!
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« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2009, 05:57:30 AM »
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Jimmy
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« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2009, 07:09:09 AM »
Quote from: joan on July 13, 2009, 11:22:56 PM
We would only argue if we think it is unfair that God would choose to destroy some and choose to save others.  Rather, we should marvel that God would even choose to save any at all!  What a wonderful, generous, God he is.  All praise to him!

That argument is wholly irrational.  There is no way that you can argue that God is a wonderful, generous God  to those He chooses not to save, if that is in fact what He does.  But He doesn't do that and that is the reason the argument is not valid.  God does not choose to save some and destroy the rest.  Just the thought that He would do that is hideous.
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Jimmy
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« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2009, 07:09:45 AM »
Quote from: janine on July 27, 2009, 06:01:13 PM
Oh, Lord, save me from the terrible TULIP.

"The Lord is not willing that any should perish" is Scripture, too.

Amen.
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