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Question: What do you think of Calvinism?
Calvinism is a false teaching.   -14 (30.4%)
Calvinism has some truth at its root, but taken to the extreme its teaching are not Biblical.   -14 (30.4%)
While not lining up completely with Scripture, I think Calvinism is about as close as any theological system out there.   -0 (0%)
Calvinism is exactly what the Bible teaches.   -13 (28.3%)
Other.   -5 (10.9%)
Total Voters: 44

Author Topic: What do you think of Calvinism?  (Read 7991 times)
Imabear
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« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2008, 09:15:05 PM »

We could use the wikipedia definition (not the variants):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism#Four-point_Calvinism

One scary thing   Who'da thought we'd bring up the whole IM issue again.  (from above site):
Quote
The regulative principle regarding worship, which distinguishes the Calvinist approach to the public worship of God from other views, is that only those elements that are instituted or appointed by command or example in the New Testament are permissible in worship. In other words, the regulative principle maintains that God institutes in the scriptures what he requires for worship in the church, and everything else is prohibited. As the regulative principle is reflected in Calvin's own thought, it is driven by his evident antipathy toward the Roman Catholic Church and her worship, and it associates musical instruments with icons, which he considered violations of the Ten Commandments' prohibition of graven images.
  You CoCer's are closer to Calvinism than you think.  lol. :P
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DCR
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« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2008, 09:17:47 PM »

One also needs to realize TULIP is a characterization of beliefs by those that don't share them.  TULIP was derogatory.

I was under the impression that the "five points" and even the TULIP acrostic was developed by Calvinists... stemming from the "Canons of Dort" and what all.  I could be wrong... Googling it now.
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« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2008, 09:17:47 PM »

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da525382
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« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2008, 09:20:06 PM »

One also needs to realize TULIP is a characterization of beliefs by those that don't share them.  TULIP was derogatory.

I was under the impression that the "five points" and even the TULIP acrostic was developed by Calvinists... stemming from the "Canons of Dort" and what all.  I could be wrong... Googling it now.

TULIP was devised by Calvinists long after Calvin died, specifically in scriptural response to the five points of Arminianism.
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« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2008, 09:22:07 PM »

One also needs to realize TULIP is a characterization of beliefs by those that don't share them.  TULIP was derogatory.

I was under the impression that the "five points" and even the TULIP acrostic was developed by Calvinists... stemming from the "Canons of Dort" and what all.  I could be wrong... Googling it now.

TULIP was devised by Calvinists long after Calvin died, specifically in scriptural response to the five points of Arminianism.

That's what I thought.
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Imabear
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« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2008, 09:33:06 PM »

One also needs to realize TULIP is a characterization of beliefs by those that don't share them.  TULIP was derogatory.

I was under the impression that the "five points" and even the TULIP acrostic was developed by Calvinists... stemming from the "Canons of Dort" and what all.  I could be wrong... Googling it now.

TULIP was devised by Calvinists long after Calvin died, specifically in scriptural response to the five points of Arminianism.

That's what I thought.
Yep, my sis went to a Reformed Presbyterian college.  They taught Calvinism using TULIP. 
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« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2008, 09:46:57 PM »

The TULIP is a cute little acronym that they invented in the Netherlands to show the error of the Remonstrants (the five points of Arminianism). After a council was held in Dort (can't spell the whole word), freewill theology was labeled heresy and the Church resumed with what you guys call Calvinism.
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« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2008, 09:46:57 PM »

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DCR
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« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2008, 09:55:09 PM »

The TULIP is a cute little acronym that they invented in the Netherlands to show the error of the Remonstrants (the five points of Arminianism). After a council was held in Dort (can't spell the whole word), freewill theology was labeled heresy and the Church resumed with what you guys call Calvinism.

Which Church was that?

Oh... looks like it was the Dutch Reformed Church... one of the first "denominations" to form during the Reformation.  If the history here that I'm reading is accurate, the beginning of that church was at the Synod of Emden, of which this article says,

Quote
The Synod of Emden was a gathering of 29 exiled Calvinist Church leaders (Ministers and Authors) who were to become the founders of the Dutch Reformed Church. Held in Emden, Germany on 4 October 1571, where it established the rules and doctrices of the Dutch Reformed Church.

Looks like these heresy-declarers had already been declared heretics first.  Oh, what a tangled web we weave.

Like you said in the other thread, church history can be very interesting. Wink

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Terrence
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« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2008, 09:59:55 PM »

The TULIP is a cute little acronym that they invented in the Netherlands to show the error of the Remonstrants (the five points of Arminianism). After a council was held in Dort (can't spell the whole word), freewill theology was labeled heresy and the Church resumed with what you guys call Calvinism.

Which Church was that?

Oh... looks like it was the Dutch Reformed Church... one of the first "denominations" to form during the Reformation.  If the history here that I'm reading is accurate, the beginning of that church was at the Synod of Emden, of which this article says,

Quote
The Synod of Emden was a gathering of 29 exiled Calvinist Church leaders (Ministers and Authors) who were to become the founders of the Dutch Reformed Church. Held in Emden, Germany on 4 October 1571, where it established the rules and doctrices of the Dutch Reformed Church.


Like you said in the other thread, church history can be very interesting. Wink

I'm sure there's something for me to get in here. What am I missing? Please explain.
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« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2008, 10:07:08 PM »

I added a couple of things to my previous post after you read and quoted it (forgive me... I'm notorious for going back into my posts and adding afterthoughts).  You may want to read through it again to pick up on anything I added that may clarify the post.

The point I was getting at is in response to your statement that the "Church" labeled "free-will theology" a heresy...

However, the irony is that the very "Church" you are referring to had itself been started by "exiled Calvinists"... since their teachings had already been labeled a heresy by the established "Church" of their day.  This admittedly starts to get rather messy.
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« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2008, 11:55:53 PM »

I added a couple of things to my previous post after you read and quoted it (forgive me... I'm notorious for going back into my posts and adding afterthoughts).  You may want to read through it again to pick up on anything I added that may clarify the post.

The point I was getting at is in response to your statement that the "Church" labeled "free-will theology" a heresy...

However, the irony is that the very "Church" you are referring to had itself been started by "exiled Calvinists"... since their teachings had already been labeled a heresy by the established "Church" of their day.  This admittedly starts to get rather messy.

ah! I see what you're saying now. I guess its a "do on to others" type thing then? Still, the "exiled Calvinist" left from the Catholic church. They were known heretics.
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« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2008, 11:55:53 PM »

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« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2008, 07:06:57 AM »

I'm going to throw a curve ball for everyone.

How familiar are you with the doctrine of the Remonstrants (Arminians)... specifically the Five Articles?

http://www.cresourcei.org/creedremonstrants.html

Quote
Article 1.
[Conditional Election - corresponds to the second of TULIP’s five points, Unconditional Election]
That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son before the foundation of the world, has determined that out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake, and through Christ, those who through the grace of the Holy Spirit shall believe on this his son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath and to condemn them as alienated from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John 3:36: “He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that does not believe the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him,” and according to other passages of Scripture also.

Article 2.
[Unlimited Atonement - corresponds to the third of TULIP’s five points, Limited Atonement]
That, accordingly, Jesus Christ the Savior of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption and the forgiveness of sins; yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins except the believer, according to the word of the Gospel of John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”  And in the First Epistle of John 2:2: “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

Article 3.
[Deprivation - corresponds to the first of TULIP’s five points, Total Depravity]
That man does not posses saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as in his state of apostasy and sin he can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving Faith eminently is); but that it is necessary that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, and will, and all his faculties, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, “Without me you can do nothing.”

Article 4.
[Resistible Grace - corresponds to the fourth of TULIP’s five points, Irresistible Grace]
That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of all good, even to the extent that the regenerate man himself, without prevenient or assisting, awakening, following and cooperative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements that can be conceived must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But with respect to the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible, since it is written concerning many, that they have resisted the Holy Spirit (Acts 7, and elsewhere in many places).

Article 5.
[Assurance and Security - corresponds to the fifth of TULIP’s five points, Perseverance of the Saints]
That those who are incorporated into Christ by true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, as a result have full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory; it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Spirit; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no deceit or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out of Christ’s hands, according to the Word of Christ, John 10:28: “Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of neglecting grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, before we ourselves can teach it with the full confidence of our mind.

These Articles, thus set forth and taught, the Remonstrants deem agreeable to the Word of God, tending to edification, and, as regards this argument, sufficient for salvation, so that it is not necessary or edifying to rise higher or to descend deeper.


Articles 1, 2, and 4 were in direct opposition to what the Calvinists were teaching... namely that 1) election was conditional, 2) atonement was unlimited, and 4) grace was resistible.

But, notice articles 3 and 5:


Article 3.
[Deprivation - corresponds to the first of TULIP’s five points, Total Depravity]
That man does not posses saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as in his state of apostasy and sin he can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving Faith eminently is); but that it is necessary that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, and will, and all his faculties, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, “Without me you can do nothing.”


Article 5.
[Assurance and Security - corresponds to the fifth of TULIP’s five points, Perseverance of the Saints]
That those who are incorporated into Christ by true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, as a result have full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory; it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Spirit; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no deceit or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out of Christ’s hands, according to the Word of Christ, John 10:28: “Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of neglecting grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, before we ourselves can teach it with the full confidence of our mind.



So, the "Arminians" actually agreed with the "T" and the "P" of the "TULIP" acrostic of the Calvinists!

The original Arminians... were actually two-point Calvinists.  Tipping hat


So, to accuse someone of being "Arminian" because they either disagree with total depravity or believe it is possible for one to depart from the faith... is actually inaccurate, since the "Arminians" actually agreed with the Calvinists on those things.



EDIT:  I may be slightly mistaken on the last article.  While they taught "perseverance of the saints" in the general sense, they did end off with this caveat:

"But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of neglecting grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, before we ourselves can teach it with the full confidence of our mind."

It sounds as though they allowed for the possibility of a saved person departing the faith... but, there seems to be some uncertainty here, requiring it to be "determined out of the Holy Scripture, before we ourselves can teach it with the full confidence of our mind."  At any rate, Article 3 still stands, in that the Arminians didn't believe it was possible for anyone to have saving faith before being "born again."  Or, in other words, they believed in Total Depravity.  So, they were at least "one-point" Calvinists.
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DCR
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« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2008, 07:48:00 AM »

Wikipedia article on Jacobus Arminius:

Quote
The Dutch Reformed theologian Jacobus Arminius (also known as Jacob Arminius, James Arminius, and by his Dutch birthname Jacob Harmenszoon) (October 10, 1560–October 19, 1609), served from 1603 as professor in theology at the University of Leiden. He wrote many books and treatises on theology and became prominent for his opposition to the five points of Calvinism, though in actuality he objected to only three: unconditional election, limited atonement, and irresistible grace.

That confirms my original assessment.

The article on the Remonstrants says this, however:

Quote
Remonstrants, the name given to those Dutch Protestants who, after the death of Arminius, maintained the views associated with his name, and in 1610 presented to the states of Holland and Friesland a remonstrance in five articles formulating their points of departure from stricter Calvinism.

These were:

that the divine decree of predestination is conditional, not absolute;
that the Atonement is in intention universal;
that man cannot of himself exercise a saving faith;
that though the grace of God is a necessary condition of human effort it does not act irresistibly in man and
that believers are able to resist sin but are not beyond the possibility of falling from grace.

There's some info for more research, anyway.   Reading
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« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2008, 07:46:23 AM »

One also needs to realize TULIP is a characterization of beliefs by those that don't share them.  TULIP was derogatory.

I hope you are right.
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« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2008, 07:46:23 AM »

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spurly
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« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2008, 08:43:13 AM »

DCR, thanks for pointing that out to us.  That's some good information to remember.
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He was despised and forsaken of men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; like one from whom men hide their face; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.  Surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried; yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.  But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed.
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« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2008, 10:01:16 AM »

Does Calvinism teaches that people that are save are always saved?  Or that everybody is saved no matter what?
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