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Question: What do you think of Calvinism?
Calvinism is a false teaching.   -15 (31.9%)
Calvinism has some truth at its root, but taken to the extreme its teaching are not Biblical.   -14 (29.8%)
While not lining up completely with Scripture, I think Calvinism is about as close as any theological system out there.   -0 (0%)
Calvinism is exactly what the Bible teaches.   -13 (27.7%)
Other.   -5 (10.6%)
Total Voters: 44

Author Topic: What do you think of Calvinism?  (Read 9907 times)
Tantor
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« Reply #75 on: July 11, 2008, 10:11:27 AM »

Then how do you take the part of scripture that says...

Quote
12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

?



A picture of synergy between God and us.  We are called to submit to God's will.  Notice that it says that God "works" in you to will and to act according to His good purpose... not that He necessarily "forces" us, where we become simple puppets with no mind/will of our own.  While God is working in us, our cooperation with His will is implied in this... or else Paul wouldn't have said to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

 Amen!

From our point of view and context this is absolutely right.

But from God's point of view (existing out of time).. it's quite different.
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« Reply #76 on: July 11, 2008, 10:23:30 AM »

Then how do you take the part of scripture that says...

Quote
12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

?



A picture of synergy between God and us.  We are called to submit to God's will.  Notice that it says that God "works" in you to will and to act according to His good purpose... not that He necessarily "forces" us, where we become simple puppets with no mind/will of our own.  While God is working in us, our cooperation with His will is implied in this... or else Paul wouldn't have said to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

 Amen!

From our point of view and context this is absolutely right.

But from God's point of view (existing out of time).. it's quite different.


And guess who is the only one of a couple of people who know what it is from God's point of view.

On another thread you said,
Quote
I view almost all the opinions of everyone on this board tainted by human pride, some more then others.

Put that with the above quote and I think it is obvious where the taint of human pride falls.  

Tantor, you are a real jewel indeed. Smile
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« Reply #76 on: July 11, 2008, 10:23:30 AM »

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Tantor
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« Reply #77 on: July 11, 2008, 10:29:53 AM »

So you feel you can understand God's relationship with time?

To me, I don't think that a person has ever existed in history that can grasp the details of God's existence beyond the scraps of scripture that he related to us.

We know that a thousand years is like a day to him... we know he is not bound by time.  We know he is the alpha and omega and knows everything in between.

How a timeless God relates to a finite human bound by time is a mystery.

But I do have confidence that what God promises, he will deliver, simply because anything he wills is accomplished, and we can have no effect on his decisions unless he cares to listen to us.
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« Reply #78 on: July 11, 2008, 10:34:16 AM »

and we can have no effect on his decisions unless he cares to listen to us.

And, the Bible tells us that He does indeed (listens to us).
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Tantor
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« Reply #79 on: July 11, 2008, 10:36:47 AM »

and we can have no effect on his decisions unless he cares to listen to us.

And, the Bible tells us that He does indeed (listens to us).

When it is in his best interests he does (which also happens to be ours, but from our point of view we rarely see it that way.)
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« Reply #80 on: July 11, 2008, 10:44:46 AM »

So you feel you can understand God's relationship with time?

As a matter of fact, yes.  Time is a physical creation, just as matter, energy, space, the physical laws.  God is not bound in any sense to exist within His own creation,

To me, I don't think that a person has ever existed in history that can grasp the details of God's existence beyond the scraps of scripture that he related to us.

That is certainly true.

But I do have confidence that what God promises, he will deliver, simply because anything he wills is accomplished, and we can have no effect on his decisions unless he cares to listen to us.

But I believe you have a much distorted view of the will of God.  I posed this question before.  Paul said,

1Th 4:3  For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;  

Was the will of God accomplished in this.  It is safe to say that 1 Thess 4:3 applies to us as well as to the Thessalonians. Do you believe that God's will for abstaining from sexual immorality is accomplished.  It certainly seems to be God's will.
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« Reply #80 on: July 11, 2008, 10:44:46 AM »

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Tantor
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« Reply #81 on: July 11, 2008, 10:48:36 AM »

So you feel you can understand God's relationship with time?

As a matter of fact, yes.  Time is a physical creation, just as matter, energy, space, the physical laws.  God is not bound in any sense to exist within His own creation,

To me, I don't think that a person has ever existed in history that can grasp the details of God's existence beyond the scraps of scripture that he related to us.

That is certainly true.

But I do have confidence that what God promises, he will deliver, simply because anything he wills is accomplished, and we can have no effect on his decisions unless he cares to listen to us.

But I believe you have a much distorted view of the will of God.  I posed this question before.  Paul said,

1Th 4:3  For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;  

Was the will of God accomplished in this.  It is safe to say that 1 Thess 4:3 applies to us as well as to the Thessalonians. Do you believe that God's will for abstaining from sexual immorality is accomplished.  It certainly seems to be God's will.

Well, we will go back to basics then.

1.) What is the purpose of mankind?

2.) Why did God send his son?
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« Reply #82 on: July 11, 2008, 11:15:19 AM »


If Calvinism is correct, then the only thing that will keep anyone out of heaven is that God didn't pick them to go to heaven first.  How can anything at all "exclude" anyone from entrance into heaven, if it has already been determined who will go to heaven anyway?

At that point, anything we do here, anything we discuss is "all vanity and chasing after the wind" (as the writer of Ecclesiastes wrote)... since it has no bearing on anything at all.  The end is already determined as far as who will be saved and who won't be.  That's the ultimate conclusion of this doctrine, when it comes down to it, it seems to me.

I'm beginning to understand how wrong Calvinism is. If we have no choice in whether we go to heaven or hell, then 1 John 5:13 is incorrect. Also, that means we don't have a free will; we're merely puppets in God's hands, with no mind of our own. 1 John 5;13 says that we can KNOW that we have eternal life. However, with Calvinism you CANNOT know for sure that you're one of the "elect". Other than the Lamb's book of life (to which we don't have access), where are the names of all the "elect" written for all to see?

I'm not a Calvinist, but I KNOW that I have eternal life, and that my name is written in the Lamb's book of life. How do I know? By FAITH! Faith in the finished work of God's Son, Jesus. Faith in His words that "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Rom. 10:13. I called; He save me! Simple as that.

God's part in choosing who He would and would not save is due to His FOREKNOWLEDGE of who would and who would not accept His free offer of salvation. "For by grace are ye saved through faith." Where does faith come into it if God does all the choosing? If only certain people are chosen and others rejected, then that means that if one of the non-elect called on the Lord in repentance, God would deny him since he's not one of the "elect". He would not be a just God to do that. Salvation is by the grace of God and not by any merits in us. If God chooses who to save and who not to save by anything  other than His pre-knowledge of our decision to accept or reject, then it has nothing to do with faith despite what Eph, 2:8 says.
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« Reply #83 on: July 11, 2008, 11:49:14 AM »

Harold


Calvinists are quick to point out that anyone who does not hold to all five points of Calvinism are not Calvinists.

That's true. Its an oxymoron to say that you are a Calvinist but don't hold to each important point.

If that is true then it is false.

What do you mean?

Adam was created in the image of Jesus, so am I, and everyone else born on this earth.

True.


He died for all of His children, if they will only believe it.

Jesus once said..."I lay my life down for the sheep" (John 10:15). Why do you contend for all when he didn't?


Joh 10:14  "I am the good shepherd. I know my sheep as the Father knows me. My sheep know me as I know the Father. Joh 10:15  So I give my life for my sheep.

All who are created in His image.

FTL


huh?

Here's the problem, you push theology, and yet none of you give the proper context for the passage.

That is how we get false theology.

Let's try basic theology 101.

Who Jesus.

Listening Jews.

Gate Jesus.

Sheep in the pen who come through the gate.

Saved sheep. Believers.

Who hears His voice, those that are saved, not the lost. Jesus draws all men. He is the gate.

The key point, Jesus speaking to the Jews.

FTL

The word saved means safe.

I study theology with RTS and haven't yet saw anything like what you wrote. What are you even saying?

Who What When Where Why.

The 5W's of investigating. If you do not know the historical back ground you can find all kinds of foolishness.

When and Who.

Jews under the law. Keep looking at the passage you'll get the gist of it.

FTL
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Rom 1:17  For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith." (NIV)

I neither agree nor disagree with any thing posted on the board, I am interjecting thoughts not my beliefs, unless so stated.
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« Reply #84 on: July 11, 2008, 01:11:47 PM »

So you feel you can understand God's relationship with time?

As a matter of fact, yes.  Time is a physical creation, just as matter, energy, space, the physical laws.  God is not bound in any sense to exist within His own creation,

To me, I don't think that a person has ever existed in history that can grasp the details of God's existence beyond the scraps of scripture that he related to us.

That is certainly true.

But I do have confidence that what God promises, he will deliver, simply because anything he wills is accomplished, and we can have no effect on his decisions unless he cares to listen to us.

But I believe you have a much distorted view of the will of God.  I posed this question before.  Paul said,

1Th 4:3  For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;  

Was the will of God accomplished in this.  It is safe to say that 1 Thess 4:3 applies to us as well as to the Thessalonians. Do you believe that God's will for abstaining from sexual immorality is accomplished.  It certainly seems to be God's will.

Well, we will go back to basics then.

1.) What is the purpose of mankind?

2.) Why did God send his son?

Just answer the question.  You made an assertion.  You said, ".....because anything he wills is accomplished....".  I think that is wrong.  I gave you a scripture concerning his will and ask the question was/is God's will as given in 1 Thess 4:3 accomplished?  If not then you are wrong.  That is part of the belief system that is leading you astray.

It isn't about the purpose of mankind, it isn't about why God sent his son.  It is simply about your bogus belief system.
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« Reply #84 on: July 11, 2008, 01:11:47 PM »

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Tantor
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« Reply #85 on: July 11, 2008, 01:17:24 PM »

If your god's will is not always accomplished.. then he is benign... and I refuse to accept that belief about my God.
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DCR
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« Reply #86 on: July 11, 2008, 01:20:13 PM »

Quote
anything he wills is accomplished

Referring back again to Matthew 7, Jesus said that not everyone who says to Him, "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven... but he who does the will of the Father.

Those who do the Father's will are said to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven.
Therefore, not everyone does the will of the Father.

If not everyone "does" God's will, then it follows that God's will is not always "done." (Sounds like a patently obvious thing to say... but, apparently it needs to be stated as a logical conclusion anyway).
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« Reply #87 on: July 11, 2008, 01:34:26 PM »

Quote
anything he wills is accomplished

Referring back again to Matthew 7, Jesus said that not everyone who says to Him, "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven... but he who does the will of the Father.

Those who do the Father's will are said to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven.
Therefore, not everyone does the will of the Father.

If not everyone "does" God's will, then it follows that God's will is not always "done." (Sounds like a patently obvious thing to say... but, apparently it needs to be stated as a logical conclusion anyway).

In Matthew 7, Jesus also states "DEPART FROM ME FOR I NEVER KNEW YOU," meaning that one cannot walk away, therefore verifying the P in TULIP when taken to its logical conclusion.   Messing with you
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« Reply #87 on: July 11, 2008, 01:34:26 PM »

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Tantor
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« Reply #88 on: July 11, 2008, 01:42:39 PM »

I have always regarded 'God's Will' as his plan of redemption from the creation of the world.  "God's will" will always be done whether or not we chose to follow his will personally.

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Harold
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« Reply #89 on: July 11, 2008, 01:53:27 PM »

I have always regarded 'God's Will' as his plan of redemption from the creation of the world.  "God's will" will always be done whether or not we chose to follow his will personally.

I think you understand, salvation is God's plan, our choice.

FTL
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Rom 1:17  For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith." (NIV)

I neither agree nor disagree with any thing posted on the board, I am interjecting thoughts not my beliefs, unless so stated.
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