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Bonnie
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« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2008, 06:38:55 PM »
Quote from: Terrence on August 11, 2008, 06:14:13 PM
Quote from: Bonnie on August 11, 2008, 10:20:01 AM
Quote from: Terrence on August 11, 2008, 10:15:49 AM
Quote from: Bonnie on August 11, 2008, 06:25:59 AM
Quote from: Terrence on August 10, 2008, 10:43:11 PM
Does it make sense for God to chose to elect someone because he foresaw that they would believe? If he knew they would already believe, why predestine to save them, since their belief already would save them? Please explain this to me, as I really want to try to understand how you guys understand scripture.

You can't explain all the ways of God.  None of us can.
Predestination shouldn't be a concern so great to us but rather to live the life He has set forth in His Word.  Pleasing Him, trying to get souls converted, reading and studying our Bibles, having a strong prayer life and a personal walk with Him, loving Him and our neighbors, etc.

Ridding ourselves of pride, arrogance and boastings, let us serve Him and our fellowman with all humility in Godly reverence.

As this article is saying, we don't know what God has planned or whom He will have mercy on.  That's not for us to know.


Certainly we will never know God fully (which is one of the reasons Heaven never gets boring). Still, we can know what God reveals, and the doctrine of election is revealed in scripture. I think to "bury ones head in the dirt" so to speak, and say "let us not worry about these things," is indicative of the lazy Christian who has no time or desire to actually study the word of God. That sort, it seems, would rather be indifferent and perhaps even ignorant, because finding the truth would mean change. And they are simply not desiring of change.

Proverbs 25:2

My head isn't buried in the dirt.  We have personal responsibilities toward God and nothing should be placed above that.  I have nothing to change.  What would I change we must love God with all of our heart, mind, soul and strength and our neighbor as ourself.

Proverbs 14:12

I like the scripture you mentioned - the one about loving God. Part of that great and worthy commandment is to Love the Lord your God with all of your "Mind." It reminds me of the saying..."Pressing on to KNOW the Lord Jesus." Above my wishes and desires for my brothers and sisters in the Lord, is God's will. I hope you might get this stuff, but God does differently with his people, and all receive good from his hand. We all have to live with the light given to us.

Still, I pray that he'd be pleased to have godly men teach the whole council of scriptures.

Terrence, what are you calling the whole council?  It isn't a theology God is concerned with.
What could anybody teach differently than what's in the Word of God?
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By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.  Hebrews 11:8,10
Terrence
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« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2008, 07:53:41 PM »
Quote from: Bonnie on August 11, 2008, 06:38:55 PM
Quote from: Terrence on August 11, 2008, 06:14:13 PM
Quote from: Bonnie on August 11, 2008, 10:20:01 AM
Quote from: Terrence on August 11, 2008, 10:15:49 AM
Quote from: Bonnie on August 11, 2008, 06:25:59 AM
Quote from: Terrence on August 10, 2008, 10:43:11 PM
Does it make sense for God to chose to elect someone because he foresaw that they would believe? If he knew they would already believe, why predestine to save them, since their belief already would save them? Please explain this to me, as I really want to try to understand how you guys understand scripture.

You can't explain all the ways of God.  None of us can.
Predestination shouldn't be a concern so great to us but rather to live the life He has set forth in His Word.  Pleasing Him, trying to get souls converted, reading and studying our Bibles, having a strong prayer life and a personal walk with Him, loving Him and our neighbors, etc.

Ridding ourselves of pride, arrogance and boastings, let us serve Him and our fellowman with all humility in Godly reverence.

As this article is saying, we don't know what God has planned or whom He will have mercy on.  That's not for us to know.


Certainly we will never know God fully (which is one of the reasons Heaven never gets boring). Still, we can know what God reveals, and the doctrine of election is revealed in scripture. I think to "bury ones head in the dirt" so to speak, and say "let us not worry about these things," is indicative of the lazy Christian who has no time or desire to actually study the word of God. That sort, it seems, would rather be indifferent and perhaps even ignorant, because finding the truth would mean change. And they are simply not desiring of change.

Proverbs 25:2

My head isn't buried in the dirt.  We have personal responsibilities toward God and nothing should be placed above that.  I have nothing to change.  What would I change we must love God with all of our heart, mind, soul and strength and our neighbor as ourself.

Proverbs 14:12

I like the scripture you mentioned - the one about loving God. Part of that great and worthy commandment is to Love the Lord your God with all of your "Mind." It reminds me of the saying..."Pressing on to KNOW the Lord Jesus." Above my wishes and desires for my brothers and sisters in the Lord, is God's will. I hope you might get this stuff, but God does differently with his people, and all receive good from his hand. We all have to live with the light given to us.

Still, I pray that he'd be pleased to have godly men teach the whole council of scriptures.

Terrence, what are you calling the whole council?  It isn't a theology God is concerned with.
What could anybody teach differently than what's in the Word of God?

I hear you, Bonnie. We both say the same things, but we understand them differently. I'm glad we can agree on the essentials, e.g., we're sinners, Christ alone saves through faith in Him, God is One yet three in persons, the Bible is inherent, etc.


Blessings in the Lamb!
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« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2008, 07:53:41 PM »
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Bonnie
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« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2008, 08:04:39 PM »
Quote from: Terrence on August 11, 2008, 07:53:41 PM
Quote from: Bonnie on August 11, 2008, 06:38:55 PM
Quote from: Terrence on August 11, 2008, 06:14:13 PM
Quote from: Bonnie on August 11, 2008, 10:20:01 AM
Quote from: Terrence on August 11, 2008, 10:15:49 AM
Quote from: Bonnie on August 11, 2008, 06:25:59 AM
Quote from: Terrence on August 10, 2008, 10:43:11 PM
Does it make sense for God to chose to elect someone because he foresaw that they would believe? If he knew they would already believe, why predestine to save them, since their belief already would save them? Please explain this to me, as I really want to try to understand how you guys understand scripture.

You can't explain all the ways of God.  None of us can.
Predestination shouldn't be a concern so great to us but rather to live the life He has set forth in His Word.  Pleasing Him, trying to get souls converted, reading and studying our Bibles, having a strong prayer life and a personal walk with Him, loving Him and our neighbors, etc.

Ridding ourselves of pride, arrogance and boastings, let us serve Him and our fellowman with all humility in Godly reverence.

As this article is saying, we don't know what God has planned or whom He will have mercy on.  That's not for us to know.


Certainly we will never know God fully (which is one of the reasons Heaven never gets boring). Still, we can know what God reveals, and the doctrine of election is revealed in scripture. I think to "bury ones head in the dirt" so to speak, and say "let us not worry about these things," is indicative of the lazy Christian who has no time or desire to actually study the word of God. That sort, it seems, would rather be indifferent and perhaps even ignorant, because finding the truth would mean change. And they are simply not desiring of change.

Proverbs 25:2

My head isn't buried in the dirt.  We have personal responsibilities toward God and nothing should be placed above that.  I have nothing to change.  What would I change we must love God with all of our heart, mind, soul and strength and our neighbor as ourself.

Proverbs 14:12

I like the scripture you mentioned - the one about loving God. Part of that great and worthy commandment is to Love the Lord your God with all of your "Mind." It reminds me of the saying..."Pressing on to KNOW the Lord Jesus." Above my wishes and desires for my brothers and sisters in the Lord, is God's will. I hope you might get this stuff, but God does differently with his people, and all receive good from his hand. We all have to live with the light given to us.

Still, I pray that he'd be pleased to have godly men teach the whole council of scriptures.

Terrence, what are you calling the whole council?  It isn't a theology God is concerned with.
What could anybody teach differently than what's in the Word of God?

I hear you, Bonnie. We both say the same things, but we understand them differently. I'm glad we can agree on the essentials, e.g., we're sinners, Christ alone saves through faith in Him, God is One yet three in persons, the Bible is inherent, etc.


Blessings in the Lamb!

God Bless, Terrence!
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By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.  Hebrews 11:8,10
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« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2008, 09:49:00 PM »
Quote from: Terrence on August 10, 2008, 10:43:11 PM
Does it make sense for God to chose to elect someone because he foresaw that they would believe? If he knew they would already believe, why predestine to save them, since their belief already would save them? Please explain this to me, as I really want to try to understand how you guys understand scripture.

You understand election to be of individuals (Scripture please), but there are other way to look at it. Some say that God looks into the future to see who will believe. However it can also be looked at this way. Jesus said,


John 6:40 ( KJV ) 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 

Jesus also said,


John 14:21 ( KJV ) 21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 

So those who believe are those who love Jesus,

Paul said,


Romans 8:28-30 ( KJV ) 28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.  30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

I think the connection is clear, those who believe are the ones who love Him, those who love Him are the called, the called have been predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, are justified, and are glorified.
So God decided before the foundation of the world that He would elect a group of people who would believe on Christ. So before you or I were born God had decided that He would save this group, Now when we hear the gospel we have to decide whether or not we will be in this group.
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And let those who are not found living as He taught, be understood to be no Christians, even though they profess with the lip the precepts of Christ; for not those who make profession, but those who do the works, shall be saved, according to His word: “Not every one who saith to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven.

Justin Martyr

When, however, the prescript is laid down that “without baptism, salvation is attainable by none” (chiefly on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, “Unless one be born of water, he hath not life”

Tertullian
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« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2008, 10:04:17 PM »
Quote from: Butch5 on August 11, 2008, 09:49:00 PM
Quote from: Terrence on August 10, 2008, 10:43:11 PM
Does it make sense for God to chose to elect someone because he foresaw that they would believe? If he knew they would already believe, why predestine to save them, since their belief already would save them? Please explain this to me, as I really want to try to understand how you guys understand scripture.

You understand election to be of individuals (Scripture please), but there are other way to look at it. Some say that God looks into the future to see who will believe. However it can also be looked at this way. Jesus said,


John 6:40 ( KJV ) 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 

Jesus also said,


John 14:21 ( KJV ) 21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 

So those who believe are those who love Jesus,

Paul said,


Romans 8:28-30 ( KJV ) 28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.  30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

I think the connection is clear, those who believe are the ones who love Him, those who love Him are the called, the called have been predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, are justified, and are glorified.
So God decided before the foundation of the world that He would elect a group of people who would believe on Christ. So before you or I were born God had decided that He would save this group, Now when we hear the gospel we have to decide whether or not we will be in this group.

Interesting! Did Christ die for only those people?
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Bonnie
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« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2008, 06:20:50 AM »
Quote from: Butch5 on August 11, 2008, 09:49:00 PM
Quote from: Terrence on August 10, 2008, 10:43:11 PM
Does it make sense for God to chose to elect someone because he foresaw that they would believe? If he knew they would already believe, why predestine to save them, since their belief already would save them? Please explain this to me, as I really want to try to understand how you guys understand scripture.

You understand election to be of individuals (Scripture please), but there are other way to look at it. Some say that God looks into the future to see who will believe. However it can also be looked at this way. Jesus said,


John 6:40 ( KJV ) 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 

Jesus also said,


John 14:21 ( KJV ) 21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 

So those who believe are those who love Jesus,

Paul said,


Romans 8:28-30 ( KJV ) 28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.  30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

I think the connection is clear, those who believe are the ones who love Him, those who love Him are the called, the called have been predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, are justified, and are glorified.
So God decided before the foundation of the world that He would elect a group of people who would believe on Christ. So before you or I were born God had decided that He would save this group, Now when we hear the gospel we have to decide whether or not we will be in this group.

If God convicts anyone of their sin they are chosen.  As the Word says, no one can come to me except my Father which sent me draw him.
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By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.  Hebrews 11:8,10
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« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2008, 06:20:50 AM »
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« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2008, 11:24:37 AM »
Quote from: Butch5 on August 11, 2008, 09:49:00 PM
Now when we hear the gospel we have to decide whether or not we will be in this group.

No, that would be up to God, wouldn't it?  Butch, you pointed out that those that believe love God and are called.  How did they go from not believing, in fact rejecting God, to believing?  Who makes God's Word come alive?  Who opens the ears and hearts of those who place their faith in God?
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Ephesians 2:8-10  Who saves, how He saves, why He saves.

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
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« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2008, 02:29:51 PM »
Dear Bonnie,

The article which you submitted was on "Foreknowledge" and not "Predestination".

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« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2008, 02:47:50 PM »
Hi Bonnie,

Wayne Grudem notes that,

"If we assume that God's knowledge of the future is true (which evangelicals all agree upon), then it is absolutely certain that person A will believe and person B will not. There is no way their lives could turn out any differently than this. Therefore it is fair to say that their destinies are still determined, for they could not be otherwise. But by what are their destinies determined? If they are determined by God himself, then we no longer have election based ultimately on foreknowledge of faith, but rather on God's sovereign will. But if these destinies are not determined by God, then who or what determines them? Certainly no Christian would say that there is some powerful being other than God controlling people's destinies. Therefore the only possible alternative is to say they are determined by some impersonal force, some kind of fate, operative in the universe, making things turn out as they do. But what kind of benefit is this? We have then sacrificed election in love by a personal God for a kind of determinism by an impersonal force and God is no longer to be given the ultimate credit for our salvation" (Systematic Theology, p. 679).
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« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2008, 03:57:01 PM »
Quote from: Hobbit on August 12, 2008, 02:47:50 PM
Wayne Grudem notes that,

"If we assume that God's knowledge of the future is true (which evangelicals all agree upon), then it is absolutely certain that person A will believe and person B will not. There is no way their lives could turn out any differently than this. Therefore it is fair to say that their destinies are still determined, for they could not be otherwise.

Hobbit, when you had breakfast this morning, who decided what you would eat?  You or God?
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« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2008, 03:57:01 PM »
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Bonnie
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« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2008, 04:13:45 PM »
Quote from: Hobbit on August 12, 2008, 02:29:51 PM
Dear Bonnie,

The article which you submitted was on "Foreknowledge" and not "Predestination".

Hobbit



Hi Hobbit,
The article already had the title.  I didn't write it.
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By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.  Hebrews 11:8,10
Bonnie
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« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2008, 04:24:12 PM »
Quote from: Hobbit on August 12, 2008, 02:47:50 PM
Hi Bonnie,

Wayne Grudem notes that,

"If we assume that God's knowledge of the future is true (which evangelicals all agree upon), then it is absolutely certain that person A will believe and person B will not. There is no way their lives could turn out any differently than this. Therefore it is fair to say that their destinies are still determined, for they could not be otherwise. But by what are their destinies determined? If they are determined by God himself, then we no longer have election based ultimately on foreknowledge of faith, but rather on God's sovereign will. But if these destinies are not determined by God, then who or what determines them? Certainly no Christian would say that there is some powerful being other than God controlling people's destinies. Therefore the only possible alternative is to say they are determined by some impersonal force, some kind of fate, operative in the universe, making things turn out as they do. But what kind of benefit is this? We have then sacrificed election in love by a personal God for a kind of determinism by an impersonal force and God is no longer to be given the ultimate credit for our salvation" (Systematic Theology, p. 679).


Man decides his destiny when God draws him.  He can accept God's offer of Salvation or he can refuse it.

Just because God knows what happens doesn't mean He made it that way.
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By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.  Hebrews 11:8,10
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« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2008, 05:07:50 PM »
Pre-destination

When you think you have arrived at the destination, even though you haven't yet.

 Disco
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Days earned in purgatory:  1,475,632.  Days earned in heaven: 0.
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« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2008, 05:07:50 PM »
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Bonnie
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« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2008, 05:20:16 PM »
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on August 12, 2008, 05:07:50 PM
Pre-destination

When you think you have arrived at the destination, even though you haven't yet.

 Disco

They journey starts out when we become saved and if we endure until the end (of this life) we will receive a crown of life.
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By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.  Hebrews 11:8,10
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« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2008, 05:27:12 PM »
Quote from: Bonnie on August 12, 2008, 04:24:12 PM
Quote from: Hobbit on August 12, 2008, 02:47:50 PM
Hi Bonnie,

Wayne Grudem notes that,

"If we assume that God's knowledge of the future is true (which evangelicals all agree upon), then it is absolutely certain that person A will believe and person B will not. There is no way their lives could turn out any differently than this. Therefore it is fair to say that their destinies are still determined, for they could not be otherwise. But by what are their destinies determined? If they are determined by God himself, then we no longer have election based ultimately on foreknowledge of faith, but rather on God's sovereign will. But if these destinies are not determined by God, then who or what determines them? Certainly no Christian would say that there is some powerful being other than God controlling people's destinies. Therefore the only possible alternative is to say they are determined by some impersonal force, some kind of fate, operative in the universe, making things turn out as they do. But what kind of benefit is this? We have then sacrificed election in love by a personal God for a kind of determinism by an impersonal force and God is no longer to be given the ultimate credit for our salvation" (Systematic Theology, p. 679).


Man decides his destiny when God draws him.  He can accept God's offer of Salvation or he can refuse it.

Just because God knows what happens doesn't mean He made it that way.

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
 (notice that the promice is only for those whom the Father draws.) All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
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