Author Topic: What kind of God?  (Read 1886 times)

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Offline Open Heart

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What kind of God?
« on: Sat May 26, 2018 - 21:58:30 »
Given Calvinism's predestination and limited atonement...

What kind of God would create beings for no other reason than to torment them in hell for all eternity?

Offline Texas Conservative

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Re: What kind of God?
« Reply #1 on: Sat May 26, 2018 - 22:14:50 »
Given Calvinism's predestination and limited atonement...

What kind of God would create beings for no other reason than to torment them in hell for all eternity?

Romans 9

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

Offline soterion

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Re: What kind of God?
« Reply #2 on: Sat May 26, 2018 - 23:10:19 »
Given Calvinism's predestination and limited atonement...

What kind of God would create beings for no other reason than to torment them in hell for all eternity?

God did not create beings for no other reason than to condemn them to hell. If that was the case, then all will be condemned and none saved, and God would be a monster.

I find three default positions in scripture regarding God and our position in Him. 1) all have earned condemnation due to sin, it is what we deserve, 2) God is merciful and wants all saved, this is due solely by His love, 3) God has provided salvation for all by His grace, it is a gift and thus not earned, but it is received by faith.

Those who are saved are such by God's grace through our faith; those who are condemned are such by their own sinfulness and lack of faith. God has the right to stipulate those conditions. He has the right to require faithfulness of those who want His gift of salvation, and He has the right to demand, by His justice, the consequences of faithlessness. It is not that God has chosen for anybody to be condemned, or that He wants anybody condemned. Rather, it is that they do not want His salvation.

There is no teaching in scripture that God saves some or all regardless of their choices or that He condemns some or all regardless of their choices. All persons will receive back to themselves their individual choice with regard to God's offer of His grace.

Offline 4WD

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Re: What kind of God?
« Reply #3 on: Sun May 27, 2018 - 07:28:57 »
AMEN Soterion!!

 ::thumbup:: ::thumbup::

+1

Offline Michael2012

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Re: What kind of God?
« Reply #4 on: Fri Apr 10, 2020 - 03:22:42 »
Given Calvinism's predestination and limited atonement...

What kind of God would create beings for no other reason than to torment them in hell for all eternity?

Are you referring to God, the Father of Jesus, in your question? Well, for one, He is not who you imply Him to be by your question.

The God spoken of in scriptures created mankind, through one man (Adam) and one woman (Eve), in His image and likeness, and have given them the freedom to choose. You'll find in scriptures what Eve and Adam, the seed of mankind, had done with this freedom and what choice was made, and the consequence thereof. Mankind sinned, the wages of which is death, even in the second death in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone.

So, I think you are asking an invalid question concerning the God of creation.

Offline 4WD

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Re: What kind of God?
« Reply #5 on: Fri Apr 10, 2020 - 06:30:25 »
Are you referring to God, the Father of Jesus, in your question? Well, for one, He is not who you imply Him to be by your question.

The God spoken of in scriptures created mankind, through one man (Adam) and one woman (Eve), in His image and likeness, and have given them the freedom to choose. You'll find in scriptures what Eve and Adam, the seed of mankind, had done with this freedom and what choice was made, and the consequence thereof. Mankind sinned, the wages of which is death, even in the second death in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone.

So, I think you are asking an invalid question concerning the God of creation.
It is not an invalid question concerning the God of creation.  The point was that the false doctrine of "Calvinism's predestination and limited atonement" necessarily leads to the false conclusion that "God would create beings for no other reason than to torment them in hell for all eternity".  It is not a question about God; rather it is a repudiation of Calvinism's soteriology.

Offline Michael2012

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Re: What kind of God?
« Reply #6 on: Fri Apr 10, 2020 - 07:10:08 »
It is not an invalid question concerning the God of creation.  The point was that the false doctrine of "Calvinism's predestination and limited atonement" necessarily leads to the false conclusion that "God would create beings for no other reason than to torment them in hell for all eternity".  It is not a question about God; rather it is a repudiation of Calvinism's soteriology.
Well, if that is what is Calvinism's predestination and limited atonement doctrine leads to, then I agree that the question is valid. It would be invalid, if not.

Offline Jaime

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Re: What kind of God?
« Reply #7 on: Fri Apr 10, 2020 - 07:24:39 »
And one doesn’t have to wear a Calvinist label to wrongly ascribe to false Calvinist Doctrine that leads to a false notion about God.

That is why the notion that God created some people for destruction with no hope a severely false doctrine, known collectively as Calvinism whether the person even knew of Calvin or not.
« Last Edit: Fri Apr 10, 2020 - 07:27:33 by Jaime »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: What kind of God?
« Reply #8 on: Fri Apr 10, 2020 - 08:05:07 »
And one doesn’t have to wear a Calvinist label to wrongly ascribe to false Calvinist Doctrine that leads to a false notion about God.

That is why the notion that God created some people for destruction with no hope a severely false doctrine, known collectively as Calvinism whether the person even knew of Calvin or not.

That's right. But that is assuming that, that is what Calvinism's doctrines really leads to. You perhaps know a lot about Calvinism and have that understanding about their doctrine. But not all here do, like me. So, I really can't agree or disagree to any pro or anti Calvinist opinions. And so, I approached the OP, according to my understanding and knowledge of God as per my reading and study of scriptures.

A note: one who considers a doctrine as false, such as others here who considers Calvinism to be false teaching, must not label others by the Calvinist label just because they think that his/her understanding is Calvinist. 

God's doctrine are truth, and does not get its truthfulness in any way, shape, or form, from the weakness, error, and falsity of any false doctrines.
« Last Edit: Fri Apr 10, 2020 - 08:07:20 by Michael2012 »

Offline Jaime

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Re: What kind of God?
« Reply #9 on: Fri Apr 10, 2020 - 08:24:33 »
If one ascribes to Calvinist thinking, even unknowingly, saying that one ascribes to Calvinist thought is not a dirty word or untrue. it is simply a descriptor. I have been correctly called a Campbellite, though I know little of Alexander Campbell’s teaching. If my eschatology seems to agree with Isaac Newtons, I might rightly be describes as Newtonian. It’s not a dirty word, but a descriptor of characteristic of thought. Campbell was one of the fathers of the Restoration Movement that my church came from. Some people have been described as being Orwellian in philosophy, as in they have similar philosophy or outlook as George Orwell and may not have a clue as to who he is.

People tend to migrate TO various false doctrines because of several reasons like erroneous teaching, biased bible translations etc. and Yes absolutely biased Bible translations exist across the spectrum. The airwaves and print is swarming with error. Yes God did reveal truth, but man has bastardized it to a large degree and clung to the bastardized error as undoubtedly God’s truth. Which is why we debate and why going back to the original language in important word or phrase studies is SO important. God’s word wasn’t designed to give a different measages to different people.
« Last Edit: Fri Apr 10, 2020 - 08:40:08 by Jaime »

Offline Michael2012

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Re: What kind of God?
« Reply #10 on: Fri Apr 10, 2020 - 09:52:40 »
If one ascribes to Calvinist thinking, even unknowingly, saying that one ascribes to Calvinist thought is not a dirty word or untrue. it is simply a descriptor. I have been correctly called a Campbellite, though I know little of Alexander Campbell’s teaching. If my eschatology seems to agree with Isaac Newtons, I might rightly be describes as Newtonian. It’s not a dirty word, but a descriptor of characteristic of thought. Campbell was one of the fathers of the Restoration Movement that my church came from. Some people have been described as being Orwellian in philosophy, as in they have similar philosophy or outlook as George Orwell and may not have a clue as to who he is.

People tend to migrate TO various false doctrines because of several reasons like erroneous teaching, biased bible translations etc. and Yes absolutely biased Bible translations exist across the spectrum. The airwaves and print is swarming with error. Yes God did reveal truth, but man has bastardized it to a large degree and clung to the bastardized error as undoubtedly God’s truth. Which is why we debate and why going back to the original language in important word or phrase studies is SO important. God’s word wasn’t designed to give a different measages to different people.
"If one ascribes to Calvinist thinking, even unknowingly, saying that one ascribes to Calvinist thought is not a dirty word or untrue. it is simply a descriptor."

That is your opinion and I beg to disagree.

It is my opinion that it is unfair and disrespectful to label a person by a label which he does not know or knows little about. If you call me a calvinist for example, because you think my belief is calvinistic, it may be meaningful to you, but not to me. More so, that you find calvinistic teaching as false. I find myself wondering why I have to be sort of identified with Calvin and unfairly burdened to find out who he is and what he actually teach, just so I can find meaning and reason why the label. But I won't waste time on that, and rather spend my time studying Jesus Christ instead.

I heard people say that there are many false teachings in our day. And that is why, the believer (Christian) must test the spirits. He can't really trust anyone, except the Holy Spirit. So, I depend only on the Holy Spirit.

We all think that what we believe is the truth, yet we Christians find ourselves believing differently on some doctrines. And that is the reality that we Christians face. So, since the truth is all that important to the Christian, and as truth drives the Christian to search for it, that we reason and debate. And I think that is just how it is, but I think such is healthy and good for it is I think one way of testing the spirits. But the moment that some start to hate the other, slander, disrespect, and do other evil things against the other, then it do harm more than good. 

Offline Jaime

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Re: What kind of God?
« Reply #11 on: Fri Apr 10, 2020 - 10:03:05 »
Yes we disagree. In the words of Gomer Pyle, “Surprise, Surprise, Surprise.”

From Jaime the Campbellite, though I don’t know much at all about Campbell.

Campbellite does not slander me, even though Alexander Campbell has been pointed out to me to be in error on some things. No more than calling me a Trump-ette. Though being called a Pelosi-ite would definitely be  slanderous.
« Last Edit: Fri Apr 10, 2020 - 18:51:43 by Jaime »

 

     
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