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Author Topic: Why Charismatic Calvanists Don't Exist  (Read 3927 times)
Volkmar
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« Reply #30 on: October 15, 2008, 08:35:29 PM »
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on October 15, 2008, 03:36:46 PM
Quote from: stevehut on October 09, 2008, 03:18:52 AM
Likewise, I have a cousin who is a Charismatic Catholic priest in Los Angeles.  This is a rapidly growing segment of the church, at least in Southern California.  Yet, the matter of tongues-speaking goes against centuries of Catholic teaching.
Just a note to you, steve.  Tongues-speaking does not equal Charismatic.

Generally, charismatics, since they believe in a continuance of all gifts, do believe that there is a gift of speaking other languages, but that isn't the same thing as the blabber-speak that goes on many places.

WS,

The labels we tend to stick on each other rarely have much clarity and tend to divide us.  So, if I were to attempt bar-coding myself I say I'm a 5pt Calvinist Charismatic, but that probably doesn't come close to describing the full extent of my various inconsistencies.

Some of the Charismatics I'm around do speak in tongues, and, to my ears it does sound like blabber-speak. (I suspect that Angel language [I Cor. 13:1] might sound like blabber to my ears, unless they spoke in English or I was given the grace to understand their native tongue.)  A few Charismatics I'm around speak more than languages than English--such as Spanish or Italian or French...but they rarely preface or conclude that activity by calling it "speaking in tongues."


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"If God was interested in special buildings and professional mediators then the sacrifice of Christ and the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem seems oddly unwarranted."
Volkmar
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« Reply #31 on: October 15, 2008, 08:51:39 PM »
Hey, I noticed an advert. at the top of the page...

Reformed and Charismatic

I've had some experience with Sovereign Grace Ministries.  Decent sort of folk, for pastor led churches that is. ;o)


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"Nothing is more repugnant to reasonable people than Grace." ---Charles Wesley

"There can be only two basic loves; the love of God unto the forgetfulness of self, or, the love of self unto the forgetfulness and denial of God." ---Augustine

"If God was interested in special buildings and professional mediators then the sacrifice of Christ and the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem seems oddly unwarranted."
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« Reply #31 on: October 15, 2008, 08:51:39 PM »
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RAMS
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« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2008, 06:07:28 PM »
Tongues.

Interesting.

But the people "heard" not spoke, in diverse tongues.

And it is known as 'Ratsach' which means tongues and means a recognizable language.

I have the gift of "tongues". I am bi-lingual fully. In English and Spanish.  I can lead a person to the Lord in either language and my target audiences "hears" in their own language......

Talking in gibberish and acting like one has just induced 1200CC of Cocaine and making water in their pants, and calling it "pentacostal" or "charismatic" is akin to calling demons angels.

Just a thought.


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Volkmar
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« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2008, 08:09:35 PM »
There was something happening on Pentecost in Jerusalem that was not "natural".  Either the hearing was supernatural, or the speaking was supernatural.  When you speak the Gospel in English or Spanish you're doing a good thing in either of two languages you have taken the trouble to become proficient in.  However, if you found yourself sharing the Gospel with an individual who only understood Hindi yet they understood what you were saying to them--that would be a miraculous work of the Spirit.

In I Cor. Paul addresses glossalia in two senses; 1.  as an unlearned foreign language (I Cor. 13:1), and 2.  as "ecstatic utterances" or "language of angels" (I Cor. 14:2, 14; 13:1.  The reason Paul put limits on #2 (in the assembly) was because without interpretation it only "built up" the individual and not the whole assembly (I Cor. 14:4).

So, Paul sums it up like this;
Quote
18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.
(Paul could glossalia better than the rest, however, just because it's doable doesn't mean it should be done at every opportunity.)

and;
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39Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.


Personally, I'm very much unable to talk in gibberish and pee my pants like I've ingested 1200cc of cocaine (which I'm sure would be fatal if even possible).  I've never prayed in tongues.  Aint agin' it, just haven't experienced it.  I guess I'm still taking baby steps...


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"Nothing is more repugnant to reasonable people than Grace." ---Charles Wesley

"There can be only two basic loves; the love of God unto the forgetfulness of self, or, the love of self unto the forgetfulness and denial of God." ---Augustine

"If God was interested in special buildings and professional mediators then the sacrifice of Christ and the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem seems oddly unwarranted."
Imabear
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« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2008, 09:08:30 AM »
Quote from: stevehut on October 09, 2008, 03:18:52 AM
I find this whole thread to be very interesting, yet confusing.

Is there anything in pure Reformed doctrine (that is, from Calvin himself) that supports the Charismatic practice?  I've looked for years, and I can't seem to find it.

In a similar way, the Holiness movement (at least, on one front) grew out of Methodism, and yet I search in vain for anything in Wesley's writings to support it.

Likewise, I have a cousin who is a Charismatic Catholic priest in Los Angeles.  This is a rapidly growing segment of the church, at least in Southern California.  Yet, the matter of tongues-speaking goes against centuries of Catholic teaching.

Do you see where I'm going with this?  I'm confoozed.   eek!
Steve, I have an acquaintance, who had joined a convent maybe close to 30 years ago.  She became involved in the Charismatic movement within the RCC at that time.  She eventually left the RCC. 

I don't know too much about Calvin and charismatic practice, but if you want to know about Wesley and the holiness movement, (which my husband was once part of) do a search for "the second blessing" or "the second work of grace" (some pentecostal groups have adopted some of these teachings as well.)
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« Reply #35 on: November 18, 2008, 07:08:09 PM »
Quote from: RAMS on November 02, 2008, 06:07:28 PM
Tongues.

Interesting.

But the people "heard" not spoke, in diverse tongues.
I do not think that is correct...

Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Quote
And it is known as 'Ratsach' which means tongues and means a recognizable language.
I don't know the rat from its sack, but I agree that tongues are recognizable human languages.

Quote
I have the gift of "tongues". I am bi-lingual fully. In English and Spanish.  I can lead a person to the Lord in either language and my target audiences "hears" in their own language......
That isn't the gift of tongues.  The gift of tongues is when a person miraculously receives the ability to speak in another language, without having to go through course work or immersion.

Quote
Talking in gibberish and acting like one has just induced 1200CC of Cocaine and making water in their pants, and calling it "pentacostal" or "charismatic" is akin to calling demons angels.
A bit sensationalistic, but I suppose I agree.  And there is an issue of keeping order in a group setting that shouldn't be overlooked.

Nonethess, a question for you Robert: would you condemn ALL ecstatic experiences?

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« Reply #35 on: November 18, 2008, 07:08:09 PM »
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transparent.tulip
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« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2009, 10:05:59 AM »
Quote from: Wycliffes_Shillelagh on August 09, 2008, 08:44:15 PM
I was musing the other day about why there aren't any Calvanists who are Charismatics.

I think that the perhaps the answer is that the manifestation of the Spirit in signs and wonders conflicts with the doctrine of persevearance of the saints.

But what do you who are Calvanists think?

I don't believe the manifestation of the Spirit in signs and wonders has ceased and I am called a calvinist. But I have never spoke in tongues myself. I believe it is possible for others to.
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ed2
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« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2009, 09:30:52 PM »
i'm a pentecostal calvinist (5 point) if you will...i assume by charismatic you mean pentecostal...

i believe that the manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit are for the church today...though they are grossly misused and abused, mainly the gift of tongues (languages)...i have spoke in tongues (known foreign language that i had not learned) on two occassions..

so i guess i'm a charismatic calvinist
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canuck
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« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2009, 05:19:58 PM »
Quote from: ed2 on June 01, 2009, 09:30:52 PM
i'm a pentecostal calvinist (5 point) if you will...i assume by charismatic you mean pentecostal...

i believe that the manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit are for the church today...though they are grossly misused and abused, mainly the gift of tongues (languages)...i have spoke in tongues (known foreign language that i had not learned) on two occassions..

so i guess i'm a charismatic calvinist

I too am a " charismatic" who espouses Reform teaching, though I disdain the term " Calvinist." Most of what Calvin taught was a rehashing of the doctrines of grace espoused by gifted writers centuries earlier -- notably Augustine of Hippo.

The term " charismatic " is very subjective. The use of the spiritual gift manifestations as outlined in 1 Cor. 12 are indeed, misused, especially when multitudes begin speaking in tongues at once which is out of order according to the directives in 1 Cor. 14:23,40.

I do not see what the belief in the perseverance of the saints has anything to do with disqualifying biblicists from expressing their gift ministries as bestowed by the Holy Spirit.

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