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Offline mclees8

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Re: A question for Catholics about Love not the world
« Reply #35 on: Tue May 24, 2011 - 12:08:38 »
Pope Urges Forming New World Economic Order to Work for the ‘Common Good’

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By RACHEL DONADIO and LAURIE GOODSTEIN
Published: July 7, 2009

VATICAN CITY — Pope Benedict XVI on Tuesday called for a radical rethinking of the global economy, criticizing a growing divide between rich and poor and urging the establishment of a “true world political authority

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Re: A question for Catholics about Love not the world
« Reply #35 on: Tue May 24, 2011 - 12:08:38 »

Offline mclees8

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Re: A question for Catholics about Love not the world
« Reply #36 on: Wed May 25, 2011 - 06:32:15 »
1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundancea of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. 6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. 7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. 8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,


The three kee elements of Babylon are seen here in REV 18 The religious, the political and the economic. All this is coming to judgment for the world looks not to Christ but to antichrist

Since when Is Christs church about solving the worlds problems or being in league with it. While the church is in the world it is not of it nor does it look to world leaders and financial institutions to solve economic woes.

The world is headed toward antichrist, the worlds political Messiah. why is the pope pushing Him along
 

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Re: A question for Catholics about Love not the world
« Reply #36 on: Wed May 25, 2011 - 06:32:15 »

Offline LightHammer

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Re: A question for Catholics about Love not the world
« Reply #37 on: Wed May 25, 2011 - 10:04:49 »
Seven hills not one.

Offline mclees8

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Re: A question for Catholics about Love not the world
« Reply #38 on: Wed May 25, 2011 - 10:21:03 »
Seven hills not one.

I was not talking about Seven Hills but your fading away remark sees no fading away.

So why is the pope pushing world government? Why is the church in Babylon?

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Re: A question for Catholics about Love not the world
« Reply #38 on: Wed May 25, 2011 - 10:21:03 »

Offline LightHammer

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Re: A question for Catholics about Love not the world
« Reply #39 on: Wed May 25, 2011 - 10:40:18 »
I know you didn't but I just wanted to point out how Scripture frees the Catholic Church from your accusation regardless of how much you wish to assert that it doesn't. ::giggling::

The Pope does not push world government. He attempts to instill Godly morals and virtues in international relationships and laws. Such as Pope John Paul II did with the conflict in East Bolac.

Why is the Church in Babylon?


I don't know maybe because there has always been a christian church in Babylon. I mean its not like we have a book of Sacred Scripture as an epistle to that Church. I'm pretty Christ spoke directly to them in Revelation when He addressed the all seven of the original patriarchates. The Church is in Babylon because the sick need a doctor. There are just as many sick in Rome as there is in the rest of the world. Jesus entertained the company of low life scum because they needed Him most.

That's kind of a weird question? Why is there a church in Babylon? What was the point of that?   

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Re: A question for Catholics about Love not the world
« Reply #39 on: Wed May 25, 2011 - 10:40:18 »



Offline mclees8

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Re: A question for Catholics about Love not the world
« Reply #40 on: Thu May 26, 2011 - 00:21:15 »
I know you didn't but I just wanted to point out how Scripture frees the Catholic Church from your accusation regardless of how much you wish to assert that it doesn't. ::giggling::

The Pope does not push world government. He attempts to instill Godly morals and virtues in international relationships and laws. Such as Pope John Paul II did with the conflict in East Bolac.

Why is the Church in Babylon?


I don't know maybe because there has always been a christian church in Babylon. I mean its not like we have a book of Sacred Scripture as an epistle to that Church. I'm pretty Christ spoke directly to them in Revelation when He addressed the all seven of the original patriarchates. The Church is in Babylon because the sick need a doctor. There are just as many sick in Rome as there is in the rest of the world. Jesus entertained the company of low life scum because they needed Him most.

That's kind of a weird question? Why is there a church in Babylon? What was the point of that?   

I don' think your idea holds water just because the Vatian only sits on one hill of the seven hills of Rome. Before the vatican became its own country did she not rule Rome and the empire for a thousand years.


I don't even know what you are talking about when you say seven patriarchates. I like simple terms please. You say the church is in Babylon because the sick need a doctor?  What a twist of scripture.  That scripture has nothing tot do with doctoring world politics or its economy  You know if Jesus wanted to fix Babylon and the world he could have excepted Satans offer and been the worlds political messiah. and there would be no call for his church to come out of Babylon, but he did not and neither did he instruct his apostles to do it nor did he say that the church leaders 400 hundred years later were to rule as a religious political power.


I beg to differ that the Vatican wants world government. Even John Paul wanted the UN to be a world power under one leader. I used to  have that New years address where he stated that. Even if its like you say What does the Church that Christ founded have to do with international relationships.? The church has nothing to do with the world and its moral political issues or its economic stability. This is Babylon and the Lord says for his to come out of her 

As far as you not understanding "why is the church in Babylon" if you don't understand that now you wont by anything else i could say about it 

Offline LightHammer

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Re: A question for Catholics about Love not the world
« Reply #41 on: Thu May 26, 2011 - 04:58:54 »
Ok I'm finally relieved you are simply confused.

Tell me Mclees when did the Catholic Church ever rule the Roman Empire? When did the Pope ever sit as emperor?

Don't worry I'll wait.

Offline Paulus

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Re: A question for Catholics about Love not the world
« Reply #42 on: Thu May 26, 2011 - 12:31:46 »
Even John Paul wanted the UN to be a world power under one leader.

Quote his exact words please , and time and place .

Offline mclees8

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Re: A question for Catholics about Love not the world
« Reply #43 on: Thu May 26, 2011 - 17:33:35 »
Even John Paul wanted the UN to be a world power under one leader.

Quote his exact words please , and time and place .

Pope Wants New International Order to Keep Peace


Yahoo! Reports on January 1, 2004

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - The world needs a "new international order" to solve its conflicts and ensure peace, Pope John Paul (news - web sites) said in his New Year's Day address Thursday.

"More than ever we need a new international order which draws on the experience and results of the United Nations (news - web sites)," the 83-year-old pontiff said at a mass in St. Peter's Basilica.

"An order which is capable of finding adequate solutions to today's problems, based on the dignity of human beings, on integrating all society, on solidarity between rich and poor countries, on the sharing of resources and the extraordinary results of scientific and technological progress," he added.

The leader of the world's one billion Catholics, who suffers from Parkinson's disease (news - web sites), seemed alert and read all of his homily in a clear voice.
 

Paulus please give thought  when the world leadrs can not agree on anything it will take one who has a chancellery position for this to happen

Offline mclees8

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Re: A question for Catholics about Love not the world
« Reply #44 on: Thu May 26, 2011 - 22:44:34 »
Ok I'm finally relieved you are simply confused.

Tell me Mclees when did the Catholic Church ever rule the Roman Empire? When did the Pope ever sit as emperor?

Don't worry I'll wait.

Even though there were secular rulers the popes and emperors were hand and hand. In many ways I beleive the popes carried a bigger stick . This is a statement from Wicki

The office of the pope is known as the Papacy. His ecclesiastical jurisdiction is often called the "Holy See" (Sancta Sedes in Latin), or the "Apostolic See" based upon the Church tradition that the Apostles Saint Peter and Saint Paul were martyred in Rome. The pope is also head of state of Vatican City State,[3] a sovereign city-state entirely enclaved within the city of Rome.
Early popes helped to spread Christianity and resolve doctrinal disputes.[4] After the conversion of the rulers of the Roman Empire (the conversion of the populace was already advanced even before the Edict of Milan, 313), the Roman emperors became the popes' secular allies until the 8th century when Pope Stephen II was forced to appeal to the Franks for help,[5] beginning a period of close interaction with the rulers of the west. For centuries, the Donation of Constantine, later proved to be a forgery, provided In medieval times, popes played powerful roles in Western Europe, often struggling with monarchs for control over the wide-ranging affairs of Church and state,[4] crowning empesupport for the papacy's claim of political supremacy over the entire former Western Roman Empire. rors (Charlemagne was the first emperor crowned by a pope), and regulating disputes among secular rulers.[6]


Offline chestertonrules

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Re: A question for Catholics about Love not the world
« Reply #45 on: Thu May 26, 2011 - 22:46:58 »
Ok I'm finally relieved you are simply confused.

Tell me Mclees when did the Catholic Church ever rule the Roman Empire? When did the Pope ever sit as emperor?

Don't worry I'll wait.

Even though there were secular rulers the popes and emperors were hand and hand. In many ways I believe the popes carried a bigger stick . This is a statement from Wicki

The office of the pope is known as the Papacy. His ecclesiastical jurisdiction is often called the "Holy See" (Sancta Sedes in Latin), or the "Apostolic See" based upon the Church tradition that the Apostles Saint Peter and Saint Paul were martyred in Rome. The pope is also head of state of Vatican City State,[3] a sovereign city-state entirely enclaved within the city of Rome.
Early popes helped to spread Christianity and resolve doctrinal disputes.[4] After the conversion of the rulers of the Roman Empire (the conversion of the populace was already advanced even before the Edict of Milan, 313), the Roman emperors became the popes' secular allies until the 8th century when Pope Stephen II was forced to appeal to the Franks for help,[5] beginning a period of close interaction with the rulers of the west. For centuries, the Donation of Constantine, later proved to be a forgery, provided In medieval times, popes played powerful roles in Western Europe, often struggling with monarchs for control over the wide-ranging affairs of Church and state,[4] crowning empesupport for the papacy's claim of political supremacy over the entire former Western Roman Empire. rors (Charlemagne was the first emperor crowned by a pope), and regulating disputes among secular rulers.[6]



Do you believe that Christians should abandon their faith if they are involved in government?

Offline LightHammer

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Re: A question for Catholics about Love not the world
« Reply #46 on: Thu May 26, 2011 - 23:06:02 »
You don't get it Mclees, and I'm confident more and more, that you are developing this doctrine as you go.

The Wh+re of Babylon is a city. The capital of a great empire.

What empire has the Pope reigned where he was declared God and taught that he was to be worshiped? 

Offline mclees8

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Re: A question for Catholics about Love not the world
« Reply #47 on: Fri May 27, 2011 - 01:56:44 »
You don't get it Mclees, and I'm confident more and more, that you are developing this doctrine as you go.

The Wh+re of Babylon is a city. The capital of a great empire.

What empire has the Pope reigned where he was declared God and taught that he was to be worshiped? 

Im quite certain you don't get it and Im not making anything up as i go along although I have seen you do quite often.


Lets quote the verse correctly
 18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
 REV17:18
does this not back up what i just said and posted from wicki.

Now you know this is all metaphor. You just called the whore of babylon a city. Cities are built of brick and morter. How can this be a whore.

What is this about any pope be declared God and being Worshiped.
wo do you think you are talking to. You are in the wrong time period. and the wrong Babylon. Even though it is part and partial to the metaphor. Try this stuff on someone who does not know his Bible or some one who is ignorant of you dancing around the bushes

Offline mclees8

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Re: A question for Catholics about Love not the world
« Reply #48 on: Fri May 27, 2011 - 10:12:07 »
Ok I'm finally relieved you are simply confused.

Tell me Mclees when did the Catholic Church ever rule the Roman Empire? When did the Pope ever sit as emperor?

Don't worry I'll wait.

Even though there were secular rulers the popes and emperors were hand and hand. In many ways I believe the popes carried a bigger stick . This is a statement from Wicki

The office of the pope is known as the Papacy. His ecclesiastical jurisdiction is often called the "Holy See" (Sancta Sedes in Latin), or the "Apostolic See" based upon the Church tradition that the Apostles Saint Peter and Saint Paul were martyred in Rome. The pope is also head of state of Vatican City State,[3] a sovereign city-state entirely enclaved within the city of Rome.
Early popes helped to spread Christianity and resolve doctrinal disputes.[4] After the conversion of the rulers of the Roman Empire (the conversion of the populace was already advanced even before the Edict of Milan, 313), the Roman emperors became the popes' secular allies until the 8th century when Pope Stephen II was forced to appeal to the Franks for help,[5] beginning a period of close interaction with the rulers of the west. For centuries, the Donation of Constantine, later proved to be a forgery, provided In medieval times, popes played powerful roles in Western Europe, often struggling with monarchs for control over the wide-ranging affairs of Church and state,[4] crowning empesupport for the papacy's claim of political supremacy over the entire former Western Roman Empire. rors (Charlemagne was the first emperor crowned by a pope), and regulating disputes among secular rulers.[6]



Do you believe that Christians should abandon their faith if they are involved in government?




Thats a good question Chesterton? If one is true to his faith he will keep his eyes on the Lord and not on men. Should a true believe be in Politics? while we live in this present world we want the best representation for good of the people.

Can a President be true to his faith once he is in office? He can go to church on Sunday but he can not voice his faith from the oval office. He cannot  proclaim Christ as the the only way of salvation or he would not be president.  He must not offend those of other faiths or even those of no faith.

Jesus said we would  be persecuted for his names sake . Many were martyred for their undying faith and testimony of Christ. Yet the president can not boldly speak of the Lord or his gospel  in the oval office. He must be a friend of the world and its and his eyes must be on solving world problems.

Christ was not about solving the worlds problems. Even his disciples thought he would be a political messiah.  His mission was to proclaim his Gospel of salvation and to teach his disciples who left everything for him to boldly proclaim his gospel to the world.  Like Paul said all that he once thought was gain he counted now as loss for Christ.
Who are we of Christ that we are to try and solve world problems when we must stay focused on the Lord and his second coming. It is the world that looks to an earthly messiah who will bring peace, safety harmony of religions and economic posterity. Man looks to man and god upon the earth. All that is in the world and of it including its religions, which also including false Christianity  and governments are coming to judgment They will follow after antichrist, but the true and faithful of Christ will be caught up to ever be with the Lord.


Offline LightHammer

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Re: A question for Catholics about Love not the world
« Reply #49 on: Fri May 27, 2011 - 15:46:02 »
???

Rev18:14Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

You truly are uniformed. The Wh+re of Babylon is a city. A city built on seven hills.

Your theory is so baseless.

Offline mclees8

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Re: A question for Catholics about Love not the world
« Reply #50 on: Sat May 28, 2011 - 00:39:30 »
???

Rev18:14Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

You truly are uniformed. The Wh+re of Babylon is a city. A city built on seven hills.

Your theory is so baseless.

below i have pasted a commentary brake down of REV 18 that i googled It is well worth reading and it purty much sums all that i have been saying and after the fact.


Revelation 18 - The Fall of Commercial Babylon

 

A. Announcing the fall of Babylon.

 

1. Introduction: is this the same Babylon as is described in chapter 17?

 

a. Good scholars see the issue differently.  Some point to two manifestations of Babylon, one religious and one commercial or material.  Others see the two as one, both being judged at the same time.

 

b. There are definite similarities between Babylon as described in Revelation 17 and Revelation 18.  Both are under the rule of Antichrist, and have ruling queens; both are filled with blasphemy; both hate the saints, and shed their blood; both are associates with kings in fornication; and both are under judgment and destroyed.

 

c. However, there are also some significant differences:

 

Religious Babylon (Rev. 17)
   

Commercial Babylon (Rev. 18)

1. Mystery Babylon
   

1. Great Babylon; Babylon the Great

2. Symbol: a harlot woman
   

2. Symbol: a great city

3. Identified with Rome (inland)
   

3. Identified with a port city

4. Woman, whore, and mother
   

4. Habitation, great city, market place

5. Guilty: religious abominations
   

5. Guilty: greed, self-indulgence

6. Destroyed by a political power that previously supported her
   

6. Destroyed by a sudden act of God

 

d. In my view, it is best to see them as intertwined, yet somewhat distinct.  Religious Babylon of Revelation 17 is judged at the mid-point of the seven-year period of tribulation.  Commercial Babylon is judged at the end of that period.

 

i. This breadth in prophecy shouldn’t surprise us.  Think of what the Old Testament says about the first coming of the Messiah:

 

·        Micah said that Messiah would come out of Bethlehem (Micah 5:2)

·        Hosea said that Messiah would come out of Egypt (Hosea 11:1)

·        Malachi said that Messiah would come to the temple (Malachi 3:1)

·        Zechariah said that Messiah would come to Zion (Zechariah 9:9)

·        Isaiah said that Messiah would come to Galilee (Isaiah 9:1-2)

 

ii. Which of these is true?  They are all true.  So it isn’t strange at all to say, “Babylon is falling

Offline LightHammer

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Re: A question for Catholics about Love not the world
« Reply #51 on: Sat May 28, 2011 - 10:54:05 »
The main failing of this article's ideology is the fact that the referral of Babylon as a city was not a metaphor.

Revelation 17:7-18 was not metaphoric. It was an explanation. The angel was telling St. John the secret of the vision he saw.

When the angel said the Great Whore is a city it was not in anyway symbolic and in no way required further explanation or interpretation.

The Wh+re is city that sits on seven hills, that reigns over ten kingdoms of different nations and tongues whose government is a religious(pagan rome) politico system. Period. End of requisites.

There is no symbolism involved. The Wh+re of Babylon never referred to am apostate Christian Church. It, as scripture clearly dictates, is a city. Rome to be infact.



Offline mclees8

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Re: A question for Catholics about Love not the world
« Reply #52 on: Sat May 28, 2011 - 13:45:34 »
The main failing of this article's ideology is the fact that the referral of Babylon as a city was not a metaphor.

Revelation 17:7-18 was not metaphoric. It was an explanation. The angel was telling St. John the secret of the vision he saw.

When the angel said the Great wh*re is a city it was not in anyway symbolic and in no way required further explanation or interpretation.

The Wh+re is city that sits on seven hills, that reigns over ten kingdoms of different nations and tongues whose government is a religious(pagan rome) politico system. Period. End of requisites.

There is no symbolism involved. The Wh+re of Babylon never referred to am apostate Christian Church. It, as scripture clearly dictates, is a city. Rome to be infact.





So you are saying that a city that is Rome that is built on seven hills which is buildings and structures with a populace is a whore and not only that but its the whore of Babylon. That's literal lunacy ::doh::

Offline LightHammer

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Re: A question for Catholics about Love not the world
« Reply #53 on: Sat May 28, 2011 - 14:29:01 »
The main failing of this article's ideology is the fact that the referral of Babylon as a city was not a metaphor.

Revelation 17:7-18 was not metaphoric. It was an explanation. The angel was telling St. John the secret of the vision he saw.

When the angel said the Great wh*re is a city it was not in anyway symbolic and in no way required further explanation or interpretation.

The Wh+re is city that sits on seven hills, that reigns over ten kingdoms of different nations and tongues whose government is a religious(pagan rome) politico system. Period. End of requisites.

There is no symbolism involved. The Wh+re of Babylon never referred to am apostate Christian Church. It, as scripture clearly dictates, is a city. Rome to be infact.





So you are saying that a city that is Rome that is built on seven hills which is buildings and structures with a populace is a wh*re and not only that but its the wh*re of Babylon. That's literal lunacy ::doh::

Hey take it up with God or better yet the angel who explained the metaphor and symbolism in these lamen terms. Don't shoot the messenger. Lol really I'm likely to shoot back.

The city of Rome is the Wh0re of Babylon yes. By city I mean system and its citizens devoted to that system. You have been right about the three points of Babylon, I just couldn't tell you that until we progressed far enough. Commerical economy, politics and religion rolled into one. You were just wrong about the religion. Paganism has been God's enemy sense the beginning. Belief in the divine power of something other than the only real divine power God.

If you're referring to the Beast and Wh0re of Revelation than yes its definitely Pagan Rome but if you are referring to the Beast and Wh0re of the future I mean its going to get kind of messy.

 

Offline mclees8

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Re: A question for Catholics about Love not the world
« Reply #54 on: Sat May 28, 2011 - 18:25:42 »
The main failing of this article's ideology is the fact that the referral of Babylon as a city was not a metaphor.

Revelation 17:7-18 was not metaphoric. It was an explanation. The angel was telling St. John the secret of the vision he saw.

When the angel said the Great wh*re is a city it was not in anyway symbolic and in no way required further explanation or interpretation.

The Wh+re is city that sits on seven hills, that reigns over ten kingdoms of different nations and tongues whose government is a religious(pagan rome) politico system. Period. End of requisites.

There is no symbolism involved. The Wh+re of Babylon never referred to am apostate Christian Church. It, as scripture clearly dictates, is a city. Rome to be infact.





So you are saying that a city that is Rome that is built on seven hills which is buildings and structures with a populace is a wh*re and not only that but its the wh*re of Babylon. That's literal lunacy ::doh::

Hey take it up with God or better yet the angel who explained the metaphor and symbolism in these lamen terms. Don't shoot the messenger. Lol really I'm likely to shoot back.

The city of Rome is the Wh0re of Babylon yes. By city I mean system and its citizens devoted to that system. You have been right about the three points of Babylon, I just couldn't tell you that until we progressed far enough. Commerical economy, politics and religion rolled into one. You were just wrong about the religion. Paganism has been God's enemy sense the beginning. Belief in the divine power of something other than the only real divine power God.

If you're referring to the Beast and Wh0re of Revelation than yes its definitely Pagan Rome but if you are referring to the Beast and Wh0re of the future I mean its going to get kind of messy.

 

We know what religions is rolled in to it and its not pagan. Paganism is of the world and is not unfaithful  for it does not profess Christ.The whore professes to be Christ  But why bother with you an your ridicules side stepping.

Offline LightHammer

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Re: A question for Catholics about Love not the world
« Reply #55 on: Sat May 28, 2011 - 18:56:02 »
The Wh0re NEVER in all of Sacred Scripture professes to be Christ. You can't quote one Scripture that says that anywhere. Not even if your life depended on it.

But why bother with your side stepping even if you are apparently at the end of your created doctrine's rope.

Offline mclees8

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Re: A question for Catholics about Love not the world
« Reply #56 on: Sat May 28, 2011 - 20:47:15 »
The Wh0re NEVER in all of Sacred Scripture professes to be Christ. You can't quote one Scripture that says that anywhere. Not even if your life depended on it.

But why bother with your side stepping even if you are apparently at the end of your created doctrine's rope.

Who said the whore professed to be Christ. you are getting more wacki by the minute with this stuff. I'm not at any end a rope unless it is with you. Yep that's just where i am.  So long 

Offline LightHammer

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Re: A question for Catholics about Love not the world
« Reply #57 on: Sat May 28, 2011 - 21:43:23 »
The main failing of this article's ideology is the fact that the referral of Babylon as a city was not a metaphor.

Revelation 17:7-18 was not metaphoric. It was an explanation. The angel was telling St. John the secret of the vision he saw.

When the angel said the Great wh*re is a city it was not in anyway symbolic and in no way required further explanation or interpretation.

The Wh+re is city that sits on seven hills, that reigns over ten kingdoms of different nations and tongues whose government is a religious(pagan rome) politico system. Period. End of requisites.

There is no symbolism involved. The Wh+re of Babylon never referred to am apostate Christian Church. It, as scripture clearly dictates, is a city. Rome to be infact.





So you are saying that a city that is Rome that is built on seven hills which is buildings and structures with a populace is a wh*re and not only that but its the wh*re of Babylon. That's literal lunacy ::doh::

Hey take it up with God or better yet the angel who explained the metaphor and symbolism in these lamen terms. Don't shoot the messenger. Lol really I'm likely to shoot back.

The city of Rome is the Wh0re of Babylon yes. By city I mean system and its citizens devoted to that system. You have been right about the three points of Babylon, I just couldn't tell you that until we progressed far enough. Commerical economy, politics and religion rolled into one. You were just wrong about the religion. Paganism has been God's enemy sense the beginning. Belief in the divine power of something other than the only real divine power God.

If you're referring to the Beast and Wh0re of Revelation than yes its definitely Pagan Rome but if you are referring to the Beast and Wh0re of the future I mean its going to get kind of messy.

 

We know what religions is rolled in to it and its not pagan. Paganism is of the world and is not unfaithful  for it does not profess Christ.The wh*re professes to be Christ  But why bother with you an your ridicules side stepping.

Try to keep up with your own shiftng heresy. I really couldn't careless if you're done with me.  As I said no where in all of Sacred Scripture does the Wh0re of Babylon profess to be Christ or of Christ. NEVER. That is your tradition. YOUR apologetic. YOUR imposition.

If your theory can't stand when being tested and measured by Scripture alone, then like I told you once before pick up the shattered pieces of your falsehood and move on to a crowd filled of illiterates.


Offline mclees8

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Re: A question for Catholics about Love not the world
« Reply #58 on: Sun May 29, 2011 - 07:34:07 »
The main failing of this article's ideology is the fact that the referral of Babylon as a city was not a metaphor.

Revelation 17:7-18 was not metaphoric. It was an explanation. The angel was telling St. John the secret of the vision he saw.

When the angel said the Great wh*re is a city it was not in anyway symbolic and in no way required further explanation or interpretation.

The Wh+re is city that sits on seven hills, that reigns over ten kingdoms of different nations and tongues whose government is a religious(pagan rome) politico system. Period. End of requisites.

There is no symbolism involved. The Wh+re of Babylon never referred to am apostate Christian Church. It, as scripture clearly dictates, is a city. Rome to be infact.





So you are saying that a city that is Rome that is built on seven hills which is buildings and structures with a populace is a wh*re and not only that but its the wh*re of Babylon. That's literal lunacy ::doh::

Hey take it up with God or better yet the angel who explained the metaphor and symbolism in these lamen terms. Don't shoot the messenger. Lol really I'm likely to shoot back.

The city of Rome is the Wh0re of Babylon yes. By city I mean system and its citizens devoted to that system. You have been right about the three points of Babylon, I just couldn't tell you that until we progressed far enough. Commerical economy, politics and religion rolled into one. You were just wrong about the religion. Paganism has been God's enemy sense the beginning. Belief in the divine power of something other than the only real divine power God.

If you're referring to the Beast and Wh0re of Revelation than yes its definitely Pagan Rome but if you are referring to the Beast and Wh0re of the future I mean its going to get kind of messy.

 

We know what religions is rolled in to it and its not pagan. Paganism is of the world and is not unfaithful  for it does not profess Christ.The wh*re professes to be Christ  But why bother with you an your ridicules side stepping.

Try to keep up with your own shiftng heresy. I really couldn't careless if you're done with me.  As I said no where in all of Sacred Scripture does the Wh0re of Babylon profess to be Christ or of Christ. NEVER. That is your tradition. YOUR apologetic. YOUR imposition.

If your theory can't stand when being tested and measured by Scripture alone, then like I told you once before pick up the shattered pieces of your falsehood and move on to a crowd filled of illiterates.




Sorry for the error It was to read as " the whore (the entity that is Christinan)
professes to be of Christ .


You see the metaphor ( harlot or whore) identifies the entity of 17 as being christian yet unfaithful. Professing to be of Christ while it sleeps with world (Babylon) Pagan is not of Christ therefore it cannot be unfaithful to Christ

 I pray that clears that up

Offline LightHammer

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Re: A question for Catholics about Love not the world
« Reply #59 on: Sun May 29, 2011 - 12:30:19 »
My previous post still stands. Calling the Wh0re an apostate Christian Church is YOUR tradition, YOUR apologetic, YOUR man made reasoning trying to project what sounds right onto Sacred Scripture. No where, not once, in all of Sacred Scripture is the Wh0re of Babylon taught to be an apostate Christian Church.

The angel explained clearly what the Wh0re of Babylon truly is in lamen terms but YOU, Mclees the Great refuse(and I mean refuses hard) to acknowledge it. The angel said without symbolism or metaphoric expression, that the Wh0re of Babylon is a city that sits on seven hills riding the back of an empire made up of ten conquered kingdoms.


Period Mcless. I mean its done. Done. There's no way for you to twist the vision of the Wh0re to fit an entity that didn't exist distinctively on its own for another 1000 years. You protestants truly blow my mind. Sorry we don't your man made interpretation of Revelation 17 because within that very same chapter THE TRUE INTERPRETATION IS ALREADY GIVEN. Given by an angel of God, we don't need to hear your profuse attempts to "create" an explanation. It is given right there in the text. Period. 

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Re: A question for Catholics about Love not the world
« Reply #60 on: Sun May 29, 2011 - 15:09:48 »
My previous post still stands. Calling the Wh0re an apostate Christian Church is YOUR tradition, YOUR apologetic, YOUR man made reasoning trying to project what sounds right onto Sacred Scripture. No where, not once, in all of Sacred Scripture is the Wh0re of Babylon taught to be an apostate Christian Church.

The angel explained clearly what the Wh0re of Babylon truly is in lamen terms but YOU, Mclees the Great refuse(and I mean refuses hard) to acknowledge it. The angel said without symbolism or metaphoric expression, that the Wh0re of Babylon is a city that sits on seven hills riding the back of an empire made up of ten conquered kingdoms.


Period Mcless. I mean its done. Done. There's no way for you to twist the vision of the Wh0re to fit an entity that didn't exist distinctively on its own for another 1000 years. You protestants truly blow my mind. Sorry we don't your man made interpretation of Revelation 17 because within that very same chapter THE TRUE INTERPRETATION IS ALREADY GIVEN. Given by an angel of God, we don't need to hear your profuse attempts to "create" an explanation. It is given right there in the text. Period. 


Actually I see the interpretation quite clearly as being symbolic and metaphor. Actua mind. I think your playing doge ball just being the contrary argumentative person you are. I believe in an unbiased vote my idea would win. But at least Im glad to have had the opportunity to identify Babylon for what it is having so many views.

Offline LightHammer

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Re: A question for Catholics about Love not the world
« Reply #61 on: Sun May 29, 2011 - 15:42:59 »
My previous post still stands. Calling the Wh0re an apostate Christian Church is YOUR tradition, YOUR apologetic, YOUR man made reasoning trying to project what sounds right onto Sacred Scripture. No where, not once, in all of Sacred Scripture is the Wh0re of Babylon taught to be an apostate Christian Church.

The angel explained clearly what the Wh0re of Babylon truly is in lamen terms but YOU, Mclees the Great refuse(and I mean refuses hard) to acknowledge it. The angel said without symbolism or metaphoric expression, that the Wh0re of Babylon is a city that sits on seven hills riding the back of an empire made up of ten conquered kingdoms.


Period Mcless. I mean its done. Done. There's no way for you to twist the vision of the Wh0re to fit an entity that didn't exist distinctively on its own for another 1000 years. You protestants truly blow my mind. Sorry we don't your man made interpretation of Revelation 17 because within that very same chapter THE TRUE INTERPRETATION IS ALREADY GIVEN. Given by an angel of God, we don't need to hear your profuse attempts to "create" an explanation. It is given right there in the text. Period. 


Actually I see the interpretation quite clearly as being symbolic and metaphor. Actua mind. I think your playing doge ball just being the contrary argumentative person you are. I believe in an unbiased vote my idea would win. But at least Im glad to have had the opportunity to identify Babylon for what it is having so many views.

Tell yourself whatever helps you sleep at night, battle. You know just as well as I that you're only foling yourself.

Quote
Revelation 17:7And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.


Stop marveling Mclees. Stop looking the vision riddled with symbolism and metaphors trying to figure out the meaning on your own, the answer is given to you just as it was given to the Early Church.

8The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

 
Quote
9And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

 10And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

 11And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

 12And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

 13These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

 14These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

 15And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

 16And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

 17For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

18And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Let it go Mclees you have been proven wrong.

Offline mclees8

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Re: A question for Catholics about Love not the world
« Reply #62 on: Mon May 30, 2011 - 07:11:55 »
My previous post still stands. Calling the Wh0re an apostate Christian Church is YOUR tradition, YOUR apologetic, YOUR man made reasoning trying to project what sounds right onto Sacred Scripture. No where, not once, in all of Sacred Scripture is the Wh0re of Babylon taught to be an apostate Christian Church.

The angel explained clearly what the Wh0re of Babylon truly is in lamen terms but YOU, Mclees the Great refuse(and I mean refuses hard) to acknowledge it. The angel said without symbolism or metaphoric expression, that the Wh0re of Babylon is a city that sits on seven hills riding the back of an empire made up of ten conquered kingdoms.


Period Mcless. I mean its done. Done. There's no way for you to twist the vision of the Wh0re to fit an entity that didn't exist distinctively on its own for another 1000 years. You protestants truly blow my mind. Sorry we don't your man made interpretation of Revelation 17 because within that very same chapter THE TRUE INTERPRETATION IS ALREADY GIVEN. Given by an angel of God, we don't need to hear your profuse attempts to "create" an explanation. It is given right there in the text. Period. 


Actually I see the interpretation quite clearly as being symbolic and metaphor. Actua mind. I think your playing doge ball just being the contrary argumentative person you are. I believe in an unbiased vote my idea would win. But at least Im glad to have had the opportunity to identify Babylon for what it is having so many views.

Tell yourself whatever helps you sleep at night, battle. You know just as well as I that you're only foling yourself.

Quote
Revelation 17:7And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.


Stop marveling Mclees. Stop looking the vision riddled with symbolism and metaphors trying to figure out the meaning on your own, the answer is given to you just as it was given to the Early Church.

8The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

 
Quote
9And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

 10And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

 11And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

 12And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

 13These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

 14These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

 15And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the wh*re sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

 16And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the wh*re, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

 17For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

18And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Let it go Mclees you have been proven wrong.

Proven Wrong? I here your ego again.

There are many different views of these verse. No one has the exact pat answer.

But i believe the general consensus would be is the whore of Babylon is the Vatican. And when we look there is really only one entity that fits every detail and description of 17. Har;ot whore means by biblical terms refers to Gods people who have disobeyed Gods commandments to make no league with world and its idolitiries  Yet we know that the Vatican is deeply evolved with the world. which is Babylon. And for you to deny that would be utterly blind, but thats pride and ego for you. That great city  where the woman sits not only speaks of a literal place with a description it symbolizes Babylon because it is everything the world is.  religiously, politically and commercially. Rome is a capital place that is the epitome of Babylon. One has to discern that.   It has the powerful religious order there, It was the capital of the most powerful Roman empire. that ruled over a thousand years. It was the hub of commercial enterprise. wealth flowed to and from Rome. To deny this would be utterly blind. So it is literally and symbolically  Babylon. it really jumps right off the page at you.

You always pick at heirs to shift things. Like The vatican only sits on one hill but it is literally a part of all that Rome symbolizes and is, and Rome sits on seven hills. Oh we could go on and on about all this but I know what is realistically true.

It also describe as sitting on many waters. We know the peoples and nations tongues  means power and influence on a world scale and that the Vatican has, She rides the back of the beast. The beast is summed up as the worlds political messiah who will have ten nations to back him up. There is a lot of speculation as to who these ten are  but its enough that we know ten will give him power. and when it is no longer needed he will throw down the whore who he secretly despises and destroy her.  After all one who wants to be God god of earth would not want to share his position with the popes. Well i have things to do now and i must go.

See ya latter LH.

Offline LightHammer

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Re: A question for Catholics about Love not the world
« Reply #63 on: Mon May 30, 2011 - 11:06:14 »
The Vatican can't be the WH0re because the Wh0re rests of seven hills Vatican rests on one.

Try to stay a lined with Scripture.

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Re: A question for Catholics about Love not the world
« Reply #64 on: Mon May 30, 2011 - 13:29:41 »
The Vatican can't be the WH0re because the Wh0re rests of seven hills Vatican rests on one.

Try to stay a lined with Scripture.


I am. the Vatican was integrated with Rome religiously and politically and Rome is on seven.  As stated before her power was over Emperors just as 17 sugests

It matters not that the vatican is only built on one hill The women sits on seven as one with Rome Code name Babylon




Offline LightHammer

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Re: A question for Catholics about Love not the world
« Reply #65 on: Mon May 30, 2011 - 13:58:48 »
The Vatican can't be the WH0re because the Wh0re rests of seven hills Vatican rests on one.

Try to stay a lined with Scripture.


I am. the Vatican was integrated with Rome religiously and politically and Rome is on seven.  As stated before her power was over Emperors just as 17 sugests

It matters not that the vatican is only built on one hill The women sits on seven as one with Rome Code name Babylon





So which is it Mclees. Is the Vatican the Wh0re or is Rome the Wh0re?

Offline mclees8

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Re: A question for Catholics about Love not the world
« Reply #66 on: Tue May 31, 2011 - 06:58:17 »
The Vatican can't be the WH0re because the Wh0re rests of seven hills Vatican rests on one.

Try to stay a lined with Scripture.


I am. the Vatican was integrated with Rome religiously and politically and Rome is on seven.  As stated before her power was over Emperors just as 17 sugests

It matters not that the vatican is only built on one hill The women sits on seven as one with Rome Code name Babylon





So which is it Mclees. Is the Vatican the Wh0re or is Rome the Wh0re?


The women is the whore. The women is an apostate christian church She is one with Rome, one with Babylon she is one with antichrist.  She is one with the city that is Babylon. The great city is not only a picture of the world and lust for power wealth, but he city is metaphor for the whole world and its system which is antichrist . Babylon is identified with false religion. She and this city are one
Why do we know this?
Both her and the beast are described as having seven heads and ten horns Rev. 13:1 -- 17:3-- 17:7 They are one in the same. they are joined at the hip.

Offline LightHammer

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Re: A question for Catholics about Love not the world
« Reply #67 on: Tue May 31, 2011 - 11:12:05 »
Well I understand your position. That's enough for now. I feel secure that any who read this thread will be able to discern the Truth of the matter. After all these pages people can easily see what Scripture actually teaches the Wh0re and not what some people want Scripture to say.

The angel explained it clearly. That's enough for any believer.

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Re: A question for Catholics about Love not the world
« Reply #68 on: Tue May 31, 2011 - 12:12:43 »
Well I understand your position. That's enough for now. I feel secure that any who read this thread will be able to discern the Truth of the matter. After all these pages people can easily see what Scripture actually teaches the Wh0re and not what some people want Scripture to say.

The angel explained it clearly. That's enough for any believer.

You know you really remind me of Nicodemus. He was a carnal literal person also. he thought when Jesus said you must be born again he thought can man go back to the whom.  ::headscratch::

Offline LightHammer

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Re: A question for Catholics about Love not the world
« Reply #69 on: Tue May 31, 2011 - 12:28:04 »
Perhaps.

However Nicodemus did not understand that Christ spoke in parables when not in the private company of His Apostles. I understand that.

I also understand Revelation 17:1-6 was a metaphoric vision similar to that of one of Christ's parables but Revelation 7:7-18 is the explanation of that metaphoric expression.


We don't need your modernist interpretation based on evaluation of things that occurred after the revelation was given.

Like Scripture teaches the Wh0re in question resides on seven hills. You say the Wh0re is an appendage of the city on seven hills. Contradiction.

The Wh0re was reigning on its 6th leader at the time the Prophecy was given. The Catholic Church was only on its 2nd leader. Pope Clement. Contradiction.

The Wh0re was drunk with the blood of the saints in 99 AD. The Roman Catholic Church didn't exist individually until 1054 AD and didn't use violence until almost 100 years later. Contradiction.

I can go on but Scripture means little to you if it doesn't fit in to our man made ideology.