A question for Catholics about Love not the world

[mclees8]

 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
  1 Jn 2:15

Even thought is verse applies to all believers I would like to here how Catholics see this verse. personally what does it mean to you love not he world How does the church authority define it.  

[chestertonrules]

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
  1 Jn 2:15

Even thought is verse applies to all believers I would like to here how Catholics see this verse. personally what does it mean to you love not he world How does the church authority define it.  

I. The life of man - to know and love God
1 God, infinitely perfect and blessed in himself, in a plan of sheer goodness freely created man to make him share in his own blessed life. For this reason, at every time and in every place, God draws close to man. He calls man to seek him, to know him, to love him with all his strength. He calls together all men, scattered and divided by sin, into the unity of his family, the Church. To accomplish this, when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son as Redeemer and Saviour. In his Son and through him, he invites men to become, in the Holy Spirit, his adopted children and thus heirs of his blessed life.

2 So that this call should resound throughout the world, Christ sent forth the apostles he had chosen, commissioning them to proclaim the gospel: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."[4] Strengthened by this mission, the apostles "went forth and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it."[5]

3 Those who with God's help have welcomed Christ's call and freely responded to it are urged on by love of Christ to proclaim the Good News everywhere in the world. This treasure, received from the apostles, has been faithfully guarded by their successors. All Christ's faithful are called to hand it on from generation to generation, by professing the faith, by living it in fraternal sharing, and by celebrating it in liturgy and prayer.[6]

1942 The virtue of solidarity goes beyond material goods. In spreading the spiritual goods of the faith, the Church has promoted, and often opened new paths for, the development of temporal goods as well. And so throughout the centuries has the Lord's saying been verified: "Seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things shall be yours as well":[47]
For two thousand years this sentiment has lived and endured in the soul of the Church, impelling souls then and now to the heroic charity of monastic farmers, liberators of slaves, healers of the sick, and messengers of faith, civilization, and science to all generations and all peoples for the sake of creating the social conditions capable of offering to everyone possible a life worthy of man and of a Christian.[48]

[LightHammer]

No earthly pleasures, no kingdoms of this world can benefit me in any way. I prefer death in Christ Jesus to power over the farthest limits of the earth. He who died in place of us is the one object of my quest. He who rose for our sakes is my one desire. Do not talk about Jesus Christ as long as you love this world. --St Ignatius of Antioch

[Paulus]

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
  1 Jn 2:15

For God so loved the world.....Jn 3:16 . 

[mclees8]

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
  1 Jn 2:15

For God so loved the world.....Jn 3:16 . 

This refers to his creation and man in it, but since the fall man is separated from his perfect will. We  now our  own moral agent considering good and evil for our self. This was satans plan and satan is spoken of by the Lord as the present prince of this world. The salvation of Christ is to re establish that which was lost and take back was lost.

Love not the world means to not embrace spirit of this world under the control of Satan.

[Catholica]

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
  1 Jn 2:15

Even thought is verse applies to all believers I would like to here how Catholics see this verse. personally what does it mean to you love not he world How does the church authority define it.  

Though everything that God created He created "good", we are not to become too attached to these things, which are material and physical comforts but not our ultimate home.  So we practice detachment from these things through abstinence, fasting, giving alms, and making sacrifices (joyfully enduring suffering).  It is through being detached from the world that we can be most perfectly enjoined to Christ.

[mclees8]

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
  1 Jn 2:15

For God so loved the world.....Jn 3:16 . 

This refers to his creation and man in it, but since the fall man is separated from his perfect will. We are now our  own moral agent considering good and evil for our self. This was satans plan and satan is spoken of by the Lord as the present prince of this world. The salvation of Christ is to re establish and take back what was lost.

Love not the world means to not embrace the spirit of this world under the control of Satan. this is quite extensive and one almost has to have a good understanding of scripture and its overall message. My study bible has a good commentary about it.

[mclees8]

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
  1 Jn 2:15

Even thought is verse applies to all believers I would like to here how Catholics see this verse. personally what does it mean to you love not he world How does the church authority define it.  

I. The life of man - to know and love God
1 God, infinitely perfect and blessed in himself, in a plan of sheer goodness freely created man to make him share in his own blessed life. For this reason, at every time and in every place, God draws close to man. He calls man to seek him, to know him, to love him with all his strength. He calls together all men, scattered and divided by sin, into the unity of his family, the Church. To accomplish this, when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son as Redeemer and Saviour. In his Son and through him, he invites men to become, in the Holy Spirit, his adopted children and thus heirs of his blessed life.

2 So that this call should resound throughout the world, Christ sent forth the apostles he had chosen, commissioning them to proclaim the gospel: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."[4] Strengthened by this mission, the apostles "went forth and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it."[5]

3 Those who with God's help have welcomed Christ's call and freely responded to it are urged on by love of Christ to proclaim the Good News everywhere in the world. This treasure, received from the apostles, has been faithfully guarded by their successors. All Christ's faithful are called to hand it on from generation to generation, by professing the faith, by living it in fraternal sharing, and by celebrating it in liturgy and prayer.[6]

1942 The virtue of solidarity goes beyond material goods. In spreading the spiritual goods of the faith, the Church has promoted, and often opened new paths for, the development of temporal goods as well. And so throughout the centuries has the Lord's saying been verified: "Seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things shall be yours as well":[47]
For two thousand years this sentiment has lived and endured in the soul of the Church, impelling souls then and now to the heroic charity of monastic farmers, liberators of slaves, healers of the sick, and messengers of faith, civilization, and science to all generations and all peoples for the sake of creating the social conditions capable of offering to everyone possible a life worthy of man and of a Christian.[48]

Thanks for your quick response but this does not really define Love not the world. Why are we not to love the world and what is in and of the world we are not to love. or embrace as to separated from it.

[mclees8]

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
  1 Jn 2:15

Even thought is verse applies to all believers I would like to here how Catholics see this verse. personally what does it mean to you love not he world How does the church authority define it.  

I. The life of man - to know and love God
1 God, infinitely perfect and blessed in himself, in a plan of sheer goodness freely created man to make him share in his own blessed life. For this reason, at every time and in every place, God draws close to man. He calls man to seek him, to know him, to love him with all his strength. He calls together all men, scattered and divided by sin, into the unity of his family, the Church. To accomplish this, when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son as Redeemer and Saviour. In his Son and through him, he invites men to become, in the Holy Spirit, his adopted children and thus heirs of his blessed life.

2 So that this call should resound throughout the world, Christ sent forth the apostles he had chosen, commissioning them to proclaim the gospel: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."[4] Strengthened by this mission, the apostles "went forth and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it."[5]

3 Those who with God's help have welcomed Christ's call and freely responded to it are urged on by love of Christ to proclaim the Good News everywhere in the world. This treasure, received from the apostles, has been faithfully guarded by their successors. All Christ's faithful are called to hand it on from generation to generation, by professing the faith, by living it in fraternal sharing, and by celebrating it in liturgy and prayer.[6]

1942 The virtue of solidarity goes beyond material goods. In spreading the spiritual goods of the faith, the Church has promoted, and often opened new paths for, the development of temporal goods as well. And so throughout the centuries has the Lord's saying been verified: "Seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things shall be yours as well":[47]
For two thousand years this sentiment has lived and endured in the soul of the Church, impelling souls then and now to the heroic charity of monastic farmers, liberators of slaves, healers of the sick, and messengers of faith, civilization, and science to all generations and all peoples for the sake of creating the social conditions capable of offering to everyone possible a life worthy of man and of a Christian.[48]

Thanks for your quick response but this does not really define Love not the world. Why are we not to love the world and what is in and of the world we are not to love. or embrace as to separated from it.

It is more than just material things although materialism is a large part of it

[Catholica]

This from Our Sunday Visitor, a Catholic publication, and I would say that this is a very Catholic answer.

Question of the Day for Wednesday, April 6, 2011

Love the World?

Q. In the Gospel of John we're told that "God so loved the world that He gave His only Son" (3:16). This implies that we, too, should love the world, since we should be like God and love as He loves.

Yet John's first epistle tells us: "Do not love the world or the things of the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him" (1 Jn 2:15). Does the word "world" somehow have different meanings in these two passages?

T. A, Seattle, Wash.

A. Here’s a reply from TCA columnist Father Ray Ryland, Ph.D., J.D

The same word, kosmos, is used in both passages. In the sense of the first passage, as you point out, we must love the world as God does -- that is, we must work and pray for the redemption of the world, for building the kingdom of God on earth.

The second passage cautions us against loving the world in terms of becoming too attached to it, of finding our meaning and security in things of the world. That would be to reject God from His rightful place at the center of our lives.

Sometimes we must choose between either obeying God or pursuing the things of this world that we desire. When that happens, we must love God more than we love the world -- by choosing to obey Him.

[mclees8]

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
  1 Jn 2:15

Even thought is verse applies to all believers I would like to here how Catholics see this verse. personally what does it mean to you love not he world How does the church authority define it.  

I would like to here from some others. How about LH and Selene. This is not just a bible lesson but I have a relevant direction, but i don't want to be to jumpy. Please consider that this is amongst the major commandments for his church, and needs to have careful consideration for we all will be judged according to it. Is the church giving its  congregation a true and complete understanding of it. I wonder if your church is teaching all that it should be. So far I only here about materialism and one does not see the defference between for God so love the world and Love not the world. Are we being taught?

[mclees8]

No earthly pleasures, no kingdoms of this world can benefit me in any way. I prefer death in Christ Jesus to power over the farthest limits of the earth. He who died in place of us is the one object of my quest. He who rose for our sakes is my one desire. Do not talk about Jesus Christ as long as you love this world. --St Ignatius of Antioch

I believe Ignatius understood. You either one or you love the other. No middle ground. Knowing this much them what is to not love the world?

[mclees8]

No earthly pleasures, no kingdoms of this world can benefit me in any way. I prefer death in Christ Jesus to power over the farthest limits of the earth. He who died in place of us is the one object of my quest. He who rose for our sakes is my one desire. Do not talk about Jesus Christ as long as you love this world. --St Ignatius of Antioch

I believe Ignatius understood. You either one or you love the other. No middle ground. Knowing this much them what is to not love the world?

Sorry i always want to type to fast

I believe Ignatius understood. You either love Jesus or you love the world. No middle ground. Knowing this much then what is to not love the world?
   

[mclees8]

If we want to find the answer we have not to the next verses John 2:16,17

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

All that the world is of and what we are to be separate from is in these 3 categories. In these is everything man desires. It also includes what we put our faith in such as the worlds religious political and monetary systems. In short it is Babylon. All that is of the world is Babylon and Babylon is dominated by the spirit of antichrist in the world. and when the church embraces these things it is also in Babylon which we are warned to come out of

Food for thought
 

[mclees8]

If we want to find the answer we have look at the next verses John 2:16,17

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

All that the world is of and what we are to be separate from is in these 3 categories. In these is everything man desires. It also includes what we put our faith in such as the worlds religious political and monetary systems. In short it is Babylon. All that is of the world is Babylon and Babylon is dominated by the spirit of antichrist in the world. and when the church embraces these things it is also in Babylon which we are warned to come out of

Food for thought
 

can we see the church here? Can we not see the throne of the papacy as a capstone who has neglected to live up to the commandment and failed to truly teach its congregation

[Catholica]

If we want to find the answer we have not to the next verses John 2:16,17

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

All that the world is of and what we are to be separate from is in these 3 categories. In these is everything man desires. It also includes what we put our faith in such as the worlds religious political and monetary systems. In short it is Babylon. All that is of the world is Babylon and Babylon is dominated by the spirit of antichrist in the world. and when the church embraces these things it is also in Babylon which we are warned to come out of

Food for thought
 

Seems like you agree with what the Catholic Church has always proclaimed, exactly the answers that were given to you.

On the other hand, the move to become worldly has overtaken Protestant churches.  The Presbyterian Church  (PCUSA) recently changed to ordain gay ministers in a sexually active relationship. Apparently they had to keep up with the ELCA Lutherans and the Episcopalians. Other Protestant churches have resorted to extravagant giveaways to attract people to come to Easter services, like electronics dropped from a helicopter.  Its a fight for the almighty American dollar between Protestant and non-denominational churches in America, and the teachings of Jesus and the gospel are the inconvenient truth that they are abandoning.  Its going to only degrade more and more as indifference sets in.  But even that is not as bad as forsaking the assembly altogether, which is another thing it seems people who are deceived by the world do.

[mclees8]

If we want to find the answer we have not to the next verses John 2:16,17

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

All that the world is of and what we are to be separate from is in these 3 categories. In these is everything man desires. It also includes what we put our faith in such as the worlds religious political and monetary systems. In short it is Babylon. All that is of the world is Babylon and Babylon is dominated by the spirit of antichrist in the world. and when the church embraces these things it is also in Babylon which we are warned to come out of

Food for thought
 

Seems like you agree with what the Catholic Church has always proclaimed, exactly the answers that were given to you.

On the other hand, the move to become worldly has overtaken Protestant churches.  The Presbyterian Church  (PCUSA) recently changed to ordain gay ministers in a sexually active relationship. Apparently they had to keep up with the ELCA Lutherans and the Episcopalians. Other Protestant churches have resorted to extravagant giveaways to attract people to come to Easter services, like electronics dropped from a helicopter.  Its a fight for the almighty American dollar between Protestant and non-denominational churches in America, and the teachings of Jesus and the gospel are the inconvenient truth that they are abandoning.  Its going to only degrade more and more as indifference sets in.  But even that is not as bad as forsaking the assembly altogether, which is another thing it seems people who are deceived by the world do.

Oh it has very much come into Protest ism. but the one who sits a queen of this worldliness you turn a blinded eye. The apostate church of 17 is called the Mother of Harlots. Was it not her corruptions that gave birth to denominationalism. Still in the mist there is the bride and she will be taken out of all this.

[Catholica]

If we want to find the answer we have not to the next verses John 2:16,17

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

All that the world is of and what we are to be separate from is in these 3 categories. In these is everything man desires. It also includes what we put our faith in such as the worlds religious political and monetary systems. In short it is Babylon. All that is of the world is Babylon and Babylon is dominated by the spirit of antichrist in the world. and when the church embraces these things it is also in Babylon which we are warned to come out of

Food for thought
 

Seems like you agree with what the Catholic Church has always proclaimed, exactly the answers that were given to you.

On the other hand, the move to become worldly has overtaken Protestant churches.  The Presbyterian Church  (PCUSA) recently changed to ordain gay ministers in a sexually active relationship. Apparently they had to keep up with the ELCA Lutherans and the Episcopalians. Other Protestant churches have resorted to extravagant giveaways to attract people to come to Easter services, like electronics dropped from a helicopter.  Its a fight for the almighty American dollar between Protestant and non-denominational churches in America, and the teachings of Jesus and the gospel are the inconvenient truth that they are abandoning.  Its going to only degrade more and more as indifference sets in.  But even that is not as bad as forsaking the assembly altogether, which is another thing it seems people who are deceived by the world do.

Oh it has very much come into Protest ism. but the one who sits a queen of this worldliness you turn a blinded eye. The apostate church of 17 is called the Mother of Harlots. Was it not her corruptions that gave birth to denominationalism. Still in the mist there is the bride and she will be taken out of all this.

I am a member of the Church which Jesus promised would send the Holy Spirit to lead into all truth, the Church which the gates of Hell would not prevail against it.  You are just a lone person on an internet forum with an opinion and a bone to pick.  Why would I trust you over 2000 years of continuous Church teaching?  Who stands up against immorality in the world today like the Catholic Church?  Who is God's greatest champion for life on Earth?  Which other Church, based upon its teachings, has had prophecy come true like that proclaimed in documents like Humanae Vitae?  Which Church gave us the Bible?

Seriously, it is you who are deceived, not I, and by a single issue which seems to be your whole beef with the Catholic Church, a single issue which you fallibly make and stand upon as if that was what God directly revealed to you.  I am very glad that I am not in that position.

[mclees8]

If we want to find the answer we have not to the next verses John 2:16,17

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

All that the world is of and what we are to be separate from is in these 3 categories. In these is everything man desires. It also includes what we put our faith in such as the worlds religious political and monetary systems. In short it is Babylon. All that is of the world is Babylon and Babylon is dominated by the spirit of antichrist in the world. and when the church embraces these things it is also in Babylon which we are warned to come out of

Food for thought
 

Seems like you agree with what the Catholic Church has always proclaimed, exactly the answers that were given to you.

On the other hand, the move to become worldly has overtaken Protestant churches.  The Presbyterian Church  (PCUSA) recently changed to ordain gay ministers in a sexually active relationship. Apparently they had to keep up with the ELCA Lutherans and the Episcopalians. Other Protestant churches have resorted to extravagant giveaways to attract people to come to Easter services, like electronics dropped from a helicopter.  Its a fight for the almighty American dollar between Protestant and non-denominational churches in America, and the teachings of Jesus and the gospel are the inconvenient truth that they are abandoning.  Its going to only degrade more and more as indifference sets in.  But even that is not as bad as forsaking the assembly altogether, which is another thing it seems people who are deceived by the world do.

Oh it has very much come into Protest ism. but the one who sits a queen of this worldliness you turn a blinded eye. The apostate church of 17 is called the Mother of Harlots. Was it not her corruptions that gave birth to denominationalism. Still in the mist there is the bride and she will be taken out of all this.

I am a member of the Church which Jesus promised would send the Holy Spirit to lead into all truth, the Church which the gates of Hell would not prevail against it.  You are just a lone person on an internet forum with an opinion and a bone to pick.  Why would I trust you over 2000 years of continuous Church teaching?  Who stands up against immorality in the world today like the Catholic Church?  Who is God's greatest champion for life on Earth?  Which other Church, based upon its teachings, has had prophecy come true like that proclaimed in documents like Humanae Vitae?  Which Church gave us the Bible?

Seriously, it is you who are deceived, not I, and by a single issue which seems to be your whole beef with the Catholic Church, a single issue which you fallibly make and stand upon as if that was what God directly revealed to you.  I am very glad that I am not in that position.

Truth does not come by affiliation to the organization. Truth comes by knowing Christ and those who love Him have put his word in their heart striving everyday to achieve his righteousness. If you then continue in my word then you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. Thy word have I hid in my heart that i may not sin against thee. It is what Christ has put in our hearts that has survived 2000 years and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

It may seem like some personal bone but it is not. It is one that is shared even by the Lord himself. I stand against what God hates such as misrepresentation of his will for us. failure to teach and live up to the principles of his word before his church in understanding the world at large and though we live amongst we are of no faith in it. The church today and not just catholic is in grate danger of apostasy. The the great apostasy began when the bishops of Rome sought power and prominence to rule religiously and politically the empire and beyond, even the world.

And so goes the church today as we look more and more to the politics of this world to solve its moral problems instead of staying faithful to Christ and his second coming. yes we are to love our neighbor even as ourselves but only as lights that shine in the dark, not becoming evolved with the dark. Man cannot solves its his own moral problems by looking to men and the end is already written and the judgments of it.

As the Lord Has said come out of Babylon

[Catholica]

If we want to find the answer we have not to the next verses John 2:16,17

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

All that the world is of and what we are to be separate from is in these 3 categories. In these is everything man desires. It also includes what we put our faith in such as the worlds religious political and monetary systems. In short it is Babylon. All that is of the world is Babylon and Babylon is dominated by the spirit of antichrist in the world. and when the church embraces these things it is also in Babylon which we are warned to come out of

Food for thought
 

Seems like you agree with what the Catholic Church has always proclaimed, exactly the answers that were given to you.

On the other hand, the move to become worldly has overtaken Protestant churches.  The Presbyterian Church  (PCUSA) recently changed to ordain gay ministers in a sexually active relationship. Apparently they had to keep up with the ELCA Lutherans and the Episcopalians. Other Protestant churches have resorted to extravagant giveaways to attract people to come to Easter services, like electronics dropped from a helicopter.  Its a fight for the almighty American dollar between Protestant and non-denominational churches in America, and the teachings of Jesus and the gospel are the inconvenient truth that they are abandoning.  Its going to only degrade more and more as indifference sets in.  But even that is not as bad as forsaking the assembly altogether, which is another thing it seems people who are deceived by the world do.

Oh it has very much come into Protest ism. but the one who sits a queen of this worldliness you turn a blinded eye. The apostate church of 17 is called the Mother of Harlots. Was it not her corruptions that gave birth to denominationalism. Still in the mist there is the bride and she will be taken out of all this.

I am a member of the Church which Jesus promised would send the Holy Spirit to lead into all truth, the Church which the gates of Hell would not prevail against it.  You are just a lone person on an internet forum with an opinion and a bone to pick.  Why would I trust you over 2000 years of continuous Church teaching?  Who stands up against immorality in the world today like the Catholic Church?  Who is God's greatest champion for life on Earth?  Which other Church, based upon its teachings, has had prophecy come true like that proclaimed in documents like Humanae Vitae?  Which Church gave us the Bible?

Seriously, it is you who are deceived, not I, and by a single issue which seems to be your whole beef with the Catholic Church, a single issue which you fallibly make and stand upon as if that was what God directly revealed to you.  I am very glad that I am not in that position.

Truth does not come by affiliation to the organization. Truth comes by knowing Christ and those who love Him have put his word in their heart striving everyday to achieve his righteousness.

My Church was there loving the Lord, and they teach that we need to turn our hearts toward him and strive every day to become holy.

If you then continue in my word then you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. Thy word have I hid in my heart that i may not sin against thee. It is what Christ has put in our hearts that has survived 2000 years and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

My Church has continued in His word and teaches the truth, and it sets people free, free to love God, free from their sins.  This Church and this teaching and this means has survived 2000 years and will survive forever until Jesus comes again.

It may seem like some personal bone but it is not. It is one that is shared even by the Lord himself. I stand against what God hates such as misrepresentation of his will for us.

Honestly, I believe that God hates that you are trying to drag down His Church, misrepresenting it as the wh*re of Babylon.  He went through great trouble to found a Church for you and even instituted seven sacraments to help you, with His grace, to get to heaven.  By fighting against it, you spit on the gift He gave to you.

failure to teach and live up to the principles of his word before his church in understanding the world at large and though we live amongst we are of no faith in it. The church today and not just catholic is in grate danger of apostasy. The the great apostasy began when the bishops of Rome sought power and prominence to rule religiously and politically the empire and beyond, even the world.

The great apostasy began in your heart long ago when you apostatized.  You have chosen to become an apostate, I choose not to follow you.

And so goes the church today as we look more and more to the politics of this world to solve its moral problems instead of staying faithful to Christ and his second coming.

Its not an either/or problem.  Its both/and.  The Church are the people of earth too, and we work through the governments that God ordained to maintain justice, as far as is just, according to God's law.  We also work to change our own hearts so that we can bring the kingdom now.

yes we are to love our neighbor even as ourselves but only as lights that shine in the dark, not becoming evolved with the dark.

Government is not the dark, governments and leaders are given to us by God.  How can you say that government is evil when God ordains it?

Man cannot solves its his own moral problems by looking to men and the end is already written and the judgments of it.

Agreed.  We already have the moral solution by looking to God, and the purpose of religion that is pure and undefiled is to help the widows and orphans AND to help people remain unstained by the world.  That is a good description of the Catholic religion.

As the Lord Has said come out of Babylon

I am not part of Babylon.  I am guessing that you probably have read "Babylon Mystery Religion", am I correct?

[mclees8]

If we want to find the answer we have not to the next verses John 2:16,17

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

All that the world is of and what we are to be separate from is in these 3 categories. In these is everything man desires. It also includes what we put our faith in such as the worlds religious political and monetary systems. In short it is Babylon. All that is of the world is Babylon and Babylon is dominated by the spirit of antichrist in the world. and when the church embraces these things it is also in Babylon which we are warned to come out of

Food for thought
 

Seems like you agree with what the Catholic Church has always proclaimed, exactly the answers that were given to you.

On the other hand, the move to become worldly has overtaken Protestant churches.  The Presbyterian Church  (PCUSA) recently changed to ordain gay ministers in a sexually active relationship. Apparently they had to keep up with the ELCA Lutherans and the Episcopalians. Other Protestant churches have resorted to extravagant giveaways to attract people to come to Easter services, like electronics dropped from a helicopter.  Its a fight for the almighty American dollar between Protestant and non-denominational churches in America, and the teachings of Jesus and the gospel are the inconvenient truth that they are abandoning.  Its going to only degrade more and more as indifference sets in.  But even that is not as bad as forsaking the assembly altogether, which is another thing it seems people who are deceived by the world do.

Oh it has very much come into Protest ism. but the one who sits a queen of this worldliness you turn a blinded eye. The apostate church of 17 is called the Mother of Harlots. Was it not her corruptions that gave birth to denominationalism. Still in the mist there is the bride and she will be taken out of all this.

I am a member of the Church which Jesus promised would send the Holy Spirit to lead into all truth, the Church which the gates of Hell would not prevail against it.  You are just a lone person on an internet forum with an opinion and a bone to pick.  Why would I trust you over 2000 years of continuous Church teaching?  Who stands up against immorality in the world today like the Catholic Church?  Who is God's greatest champion for life on Earth?  Which other Church, based upon its teachings, has had prophecy come true like that proclaimed in documents like Humanae Vitae?  Which Church gave us the Bible?

Seriously, it is you who are deceived, not I, and by a single issue which seems to be your whole beef with the Catholic Church, a single issue which you fallibly make and stand upon as if that was what God directly revealed to you.  I am very glad that I am not in that position.

Truth does not come by affiliation to the organization. Truth comes by knowing Christ and those who love Him have put his word in their heart striving everyday to achieve his righteousness.

My Church was there loving the Lord, and they teach that we need to turn our hearts toward him and strive every day to become holy.

If you then continue in my word then you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. Thy word have I hid in my heart that i may not sin against thee. It is what Christ has put in our hearts that has survived 2000 years and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

My Church has continued in His word and teaches the truth, and it sets people free, free to love God, free from their sins.  This Church and this teaching and this means has survived 2000 years and will survive forever until Jesus comes again.

It may seem like some personal bone but it is not. It is one that is shared even by the Lord himself. I stand against what God hates such as misrepresentation of his will for us.

Honestly, I believe that God hates that you are trying to drag down His Church, misrepresenting it as the wh*re of Babylon.  He went through great trouble to found a Church for you and even instituted seven sacraments to help you, with His grace, to get to heaven.  By fighting against it, you spit on the gift He gave to you.

failure to teach and live up to the principles of his word before his church in understanding the world at large and though we live amongst we are of no faith in it. The church today and not just catholic is in grate danger of apostasy. The the great apostasy began when the bishops of Rome sought power and prominence to rule religiously and politically the empire and beyond, even the world.

The great apostasy began in your heart long ago when you apostatized.  You have chosen to become an apostate, I choose not to follow you.

And so goes the church today as we look more and more to the politics of this world to solve its moral problems instead of staying faithful to Christ and his second coming.

Its not an either/or problem.  Its both/and.  The Church are the people of earth too, and we work through the governments that God ordained to maintain justice, as far as is just, according to God's law.  We also work to change our own hearts so that we can bring the kingdom now.

yes we are to love our neighbor even as ourselves but only as lights that shine in the dark, not becoming evolved with the dark.

Government is not the dark, governments and leaders are given to us by God.  How can you say that government is evil when God ordains it?

Man cannot solves its his own moral problems by looking to men and the end is already written and the judgments of it.

Agreed.  We already have the moral solution by looking to God, and the purpose of religion that is pure and undefiled is to help the widows and orphans AND to help people remain unstained by the world.  That is a good description of the Catholic religion.

As the Lord Has said come out of Babylon

I am not part of Babylon.  I am guessing that you probably have read "Babylon Mystery Religion", am I correct?

I am moving this to my word program where i will have more time to answer. As Selene would say i need a commercial brake. Still I have something to say.

[mclees8]

Truth does not come by affiliation to the organization. Truth comes by knowing Christ and those who love Him have put his word in their heart striving everyday to achieve his righteousness.[/quote]

Cath
My Church was there loving the Lord, and they teach that we need to turn our hearts toward him and strive every day to become holy.

Mike
I was talking about truth which you say only your church has the fullness but I say truth comes by knowing Christ and he who has Christ has his fullness and he who continues to be steadfast will see his reward. This is not a denominational thing.

If you then continue in my word then you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. Thy word have I hid in my heart that i may not sin against thee. It is what Christ has put in our hearts that has survived 2000 years and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

Cath
My Church has continued in His word and teaches the truth, and it sets people free, free to love God, free from their sins.  This Church and this teaching and this means has survived 2000 years and will survive forever until Jesus comes again.

Mike
All that is taught of the lords Gospel is truth and sets men free. But it is not the teaching authority that sets us free but Christ and his word. Your idea of the church is centered in the authority that fails to recognize and teach the truth about  Babylon. And being separated from it This is because she is in bed with Babylon, the worlds systems religious , political and monetary. To deny this is to insult intelligence.  I have more to say about this. Amazing how religious pride keeps us blind and in bondage.

It may seem like some personal bone but it is not. It is one that is shared even by the Lord himself. I stand against what God hates such as misrepresentation of his will for us.

Cath
Honestly, I believe that God hates that you are trying to drag down His Church, misrepresenting it as the wh*re of Babylon.  He went through great trouble to found a Church for you and even instituted seven  sacraments , with His grace, to get to heaven.  By fighting against it, you spit on the gift He gave to you.

Mike
He founded a church that would keep his commandments to not be a part of this world. Nothing Jesus or the apostles ever taught  eluded to promoted  or suggested that the church leaders were to seek after or desire to be a religious political power. It was of no vision from Christ


LH posted a statement by Ignatious.   No earthly pleasures, no kingdoms of this world can benefit me in any way. I prefer death in Christ Jesus to power over the farthest limits of the earth. He who died in place of us is the one object of my quest. He who rose for our sakes is my one desire. Do not talk about Jesus Christ as long as you love this world. --St Ignatius of Antioch

The bishops of Rome should have  listened to him

 Jesus did not give us  a church, he gave us Himself so that we could be his church as we have no power in and of ourselves to please God. “I  am the vine and ye are the branches and with out me you can do nothing.

[Paulus]

No ?

On this rock I will build my Church ( Mtt 16:18 ) .

A Church which upholds the truth and keeps it safe ( 1 Tim 3:15 ) .

Jesus is the head of the Church which is his body ( Eph 1:23 ) . [ Could any but Jesus give us this reality , his body of which he is the head ?]

[mclees8]

No ?

On this rock I will build my Church ( Mtt 16:18 ) .

A Church which upholds the truth and keeps it safe ( 1 Tim 3:15 ) .

Jesus is the head of the Church which is his body ( Eph 1:23 ) . [ Could any but Jesus give us this reality , his body of which he is the head ?]

The statement I said is still correct Paulis. Think . If Jesus had not given himself for us you and i would not even be saved to be his church. Neither would their be any RCC

But as many who have received him, to them  gave he the power to to be the of God. even to them that believe upon his name John1:12

[LightHammer]

No ?

On this rock I will build my Church ( Mtt 16:18 ) .

A Church which upholds the truth and keeps it safe ( 1 Tim 3:15 ) .

Jesus is the head of the Church which is his body ( Eph 1:23 ) . [ Could any but Jesus give us this reality , his body of which he is the head ?]

The statement I said is still correct Paulis. Think . If Jesus had not given himself for us you and i would not even be saved to be his church. Neither would their be any RCC

But as many who have received him, to them  gave he the power to to be the of God. even to them that believe upon his name John1:12

Now you're getting it. If Christ didn't die for us the Catholic Church wouldn't exist because Christ created it. If Chirst didn't create the Catholic Church then the Coptic Church wouldn't exist because there would've been nothing for it to separate from. If Christ didn't create Catholic Church exist then the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox wouldn't be the products of its spilt. If Christ didn't create the Catholic Church it would never have spilt and protestantism would've never been born from rebelling against the split Roman Catholic Church.


That is kind of the point IMO. The Catholic Church is not of the world. It is of Christ but it is in the world.

[mclees8]

No ?

On this rock I will build my Church ( Mtt 16:18 ) .

A Church which upholds the truth and keeps it safe ( 1 Tim 3:15 ) .

Jesus is the head of the Church which is his body ( Eph 1:23 ) . [ Could any but Jesus give us this reality , his body of which he is the head ?]

The statement I said is still correct Paulis. Think . If Jesus had not given himself for us you and i would not even be saved to be his church. Neither would their be any RCC

But as many who have received him, to them  gave he the power to to be the of God. even to them that believe upon his name John1:12

Now you're getting it. If Christ didn't die for us the Catholic Church wouldn't exist because Christ created it. If Chirst didn't create the Catholic Church then the Coptic Church wouldn't exist because there would've been nothing for it to separate from. If Christ didn't create Catholic Church exist then the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox wouldn't be the products of its spilt. If Christ didn't create the Catholic Church it would never have spilt and protestantism would've never been born from rebelling against the split Roman Catholic Church.


That is kind of the point IMO. The Catholic Church is not of the world. It is of Christ but it is in the world.

No you are not getting it. The RCC is a result of apostasy. It says it is of Christ but its ambitions are of the world.
You cannot be of Christ and of the world at the same time. Were you not the one who posted the statement by Ignatius.

Lets justi say like you are really trying to say it. The Roman catholic church ls not of the world but is in it.

Not true The RCC is a reinvention of His church. that is not separated from the world but is of it. It is in Babylon. This is why they won;t teach the truth about Babylon to it congregations

[LightHammer]

No ?

On this rock I will build my Church ( Mtt 16:18 ) .

A Church which upholds the truth and keeps it safe ( 1 Tim 3:15 ) .

Jesus is the head of the Church which is his body ( Eph 1:23 ) . [ Could any but Jesus give us this reality , his body of which he is the head ?]

The statement I said is still correct Paulis. Think . If Jesus had not given himself for us you and i would not even be saved to be his church. Neither would their be any RCC

But as many who have received him, to them  gave he the power to to be the of God. even to them that believe upon his name John1:12

Now you're getting it. If Christ didn't die for us the Catholic Church wouldn't exist because Christ created it. If Chirst didn't create the Catholic Church then the Coptic Church wouldn't exist because there would've been nothing for it to separate from. If Christ didn't create Catholic Church exist then the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox wouldn't be the products of its spilt. If Christ didn't create the Catholic Church it would never have spilt and protestantism would've never been born from rebelling against the split Roman Catholic Church.


That is kind of the point IMO. The Catholic Church is not of the world. It is of Christ but it is in the world.

No you are not getting it. The RCC is a result of apostasy. It says it is of Christ but its ambitions are of the world.
You cannot be of Christ and of the world at the same time. Were you not the one who posted the statement by Ignatius.

Lets justi say like you are really trying to say it. The Roman catholic church ls not of the world but is in it.

Not true The RCC is a reinvention of His church. that is not separated from the world but is of it. It is in Babylon. This is why they won;t teach the truth about Babylon to it congregations

The fact that there is a christian church in Rome does not make that Church apostate. The beliefs of the Patrarchate of Rome was shared by every other patriarchate in the world. So where do you get off gauging its apostasy?

Just because the word "Rome" is in its title does not make it of Babylon. If the word "Rome" was bad in and of itself then I doubt Peter and Paul would ever had traveled to Rome. I doubt there would be a congregation there for the apostles to write to.

In all honesty you can't name any doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church that make it apostate that weren'universally accepted apart from papal universal jurisdcition, papal infallibility and the filioque. Period.

[mclees8]

No ?

On this rock I will build my Church ( Mtt 16:18 ) .

A Church which upholds the truth and keeps it safe ( 1 Tim 3:15 ) .

Jesus is the head of the Church which is his body ( Eph 1:23 ) . [ Could any but Jesus give us this reality , his body of which he is the head ?]

The statement I said is still correct Paulis. Think . If Jesus had not given himself for us you and i would not even be saved to be his church. Neither would their be any RCC

But as many who have received him, to them  gave he the power to to be the of God. even to them that believe upon his name John1:12

Now you're getting it. If Christ didn't die for us the Catholic Church wouldn't exist because Christ created it. If Chirst didn't create the Catholic Church then the Coptic Church wouldn't exist because there would've been nothing for it to separate from. If Christ didn't create Catholic Church exist then the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox wouldn't be the products of its spilt. If Christ didn't create the Catholic Church it would never have spilt and protestantism would've never been born from rebelling against the split Roman Catholic Church.


That is kind of the point IMO. The Catholic Church is not of the world. It is of Christ but it is in the world.

No you are not getting it. The RCC is a result of apostasy. It says it is of Christ but its ambitions are of the world.
You cannot be of Christ and of the world at the same time. Were you not the one who posted the statement by Ignatius.

Lets justi say like you are really trying to say it. The Roman catholic church ls not of the world but is in it.

Not true The RCC is a reinvention of His church. that is not separated from the world but is of it. It is in Babylon. This is why they won;t teach the truth about Babylon to it congregations

The fact that there is a christian church in Rome does not make that Church apostate. The beliefs of the Patrarchate of Rome was shared by every other patriarchate in the world. So where do you get off gauging its apostasy?

Just because the word "Rome" is in its title does not make it of Babylon. If the word "Rome" was bad in and of itself then I doubt Peter and Paul would ever had traveled to Rome. I doubt there would be a congregation there for the apostles to write to.

In all honesty you can't name any doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church that make it apostate that weren'universally accepted apart from papal universal jurisdcition, papal infallibility and the filioque. Period.

Mike
Of course if you just want to live in denial then there is little I could say that you would not make every excuse as to why it can not be true. .still that is no excuse that I should not say any thing whether you believe or not. Even though Romes code name is Babylon its meaning is far more reaching.  The three main aspects of Babylon is centered in three main categories. Religious, Political, and commercial economic. These three things dominate everything in the world. He who has authority over these three things has absolute power and authority. Every kingdom that has risen to dominate vast lands an peoples dominates these three systems. The church at Rome was just the church established there but it was about Christ and his salvation only. It was in Rome but not of Rome,

Rome was the dominating power of its vast empire thus practiced many pagan beliefs, which emperors also worshiped. It also dominated commercially  gaining vast wealth Christianity until Constantine was rejected and persecuted, but after the church gained recognition and freedom it became the dominate religion of the land having the power of Rome. and all it wealth . This was all the doing of the greedy bishops of Rome

It also gained Rome’s Political power. So now we have a church that claims to be of Christ but yet it now sleeps with  wealth and political power of Rome even the world And you dare say that it was not in bed with Babylon., being apostate of the lord and his  will for his church to be separate. Babylon is the world which is of the tree systems described .and the fony christian church that only wore Jesus as a Vail was a great whore.   

[LightHammer]

You say more unsubstantiated stuff than anyone else on this forum. Anyone.

You obviously have your time line jacked up. Before the West even was called Roman Catholic the freedom to practice Christianity was already sanctioned in Rome. Constantine reigned almost 700 years before Roman Catholicism existed distinctively on its own. So like I was saying, the views of the Church in Rome were no different than the views from the Church in Jerusalem, in Antioch, in Damascus, etc. If the Church in Rome was apostate before 1054 AD for its doctrinal views then every other Church in Christendom was as well because they all shared the exact same beliefs.


And I already addressed your government evil battle cry with Ephesians. Government is only every antichrist when it suffers corrupt to be assimilated into it and we are meant to be soldiers against that wickedness not against government itself. You must be one of those Christianarchist.

News flash, Christ never said to tear down governments He said to be armored warriors in opposition to wickedness in high places. Take you eyes off the high places and start fighting the wickedness like you were told. The baby is sick but that doesn't mean you chop of the baby's head it means you cure the sickness.

And another fact of the matter is simply this. The Church in Rome lived in constant opposition to the Roman government. Constant. The Church in Rome separated from political power with Rome when it became the Vatican. It is now its own nation. Just like God's former kingdom on earth Israel.

And another thing! The Roman patriarchate is nothing in the grand scheme of Catholicism. Its really the presidency that gets all the big whoop. The See of Peter's primacy. So if one day separating from Roman government and being in the Vatican proves to be not enough the presidency can always pick up and move to somewhere else. It can become stationed in Greece just as easily as Peter HQ'd in Rome.


That's the point I am now confident you are simply ignoring. The Wh*re of Babylon is not a foreign christian chuurch that grew in Rome. The Wh*re of Babylon literally IS Rome. It is the city that rest on seven hills. Not the largest Christian Church who's head quarters rests on ONE! Gosh is you were strictly sola scriptura Catholicism shouldn't even be an option it rest on one stinking hill not seven. End of interrogation.

You are projecting you are idea of the Wh*re onto a body that does not fit EVERY scriptural requisite. You're not a sola scripture. You're a Sola Mike.

[mclees8]

You say more unsubstantiated stuff than anyone else on this forum. Anyone.

You obviously have your time line jacked up. Before the West even was called Roman Catholic the freedom to practice Christianity was already sanctioned in Rome. Constantine reigned almost 700 years before Roman Catholicism existed distinctively on its own. So like I was saying, the views of the Church in Rome were no different than the views from the Church in Jerusalem, in Antioch, in Damascus, etc. If the Church in Rome was apostate before 1054 AD for its doctrinal views then every other Church in Christendom was as well because they all shared the exact same beliefs.


And I already addressed your government evil battle cry with Ephesians. Government is only every antichrist when it suffers corrupt to be assimilated into it and we are meant to be soldiers against that wickedness not against government itself. You must be one of those Christianarchist.

News flash, Christ never said to tear down governments He said to be armored warriors in opposition to wickedness in high places. Take you eyes off the high places and start fighting the wickedness like you were told. The baby is sick but that doesn't mean you chop of the baby's head it means you cure the sickness.

And another fact of the matter is simply this. The Church in Rome lived in constant opposition to the Roman government. Constant. The Church in Rome separated from political power with Rome when it became the Vatican. It is now its own nation. Just like God's former kingdom on earth Israel.

And another thing! The Roman patriarchate is nothing in the grand scheme of Catholicism. Its really the presidency that gets all the big whoop. The See of Peter's primacy. So if one day separating from Roman government and being in the Vatican proves to be not enough the presidency can always pick up and move to somewhere else. It can become stationed in Greece just as easily as Peter HQ'd in Rome.


That's the point I am now confident you are simply ignoring. The Wh*re of Babylon is not a foreign christian chuurch that grew in Rome. The Wh*re of Babylon literally IS Rome. It is the city that rest on seven hills. Not the largest Christian Church who's head quarters rests on ONE! Gosh is you were strictly sola scriptura Catholicism shouldn't even be an option it rest on one stinking hill not seven. End of interrogation.

You are projecting you are idea of the Wh*re onto a body that does not fit EVERY scriptural requisite. You're not a sola scripture. You're a Sola Mike.

LH you really need to get a hold of your self. I won't debate with you. you don't even make sense. I have spoke the truth and it matters not what think.

[LightHammer]

You say more unsubstantiated stuff than anyone else on this forum. Anyone.

You obviously have your time line jacked up. Before the West even was called Roman Catholic the freedom to practice Christianity was already sanctioned in Rome. Constantine reigned almost 700 years before Roman Catholicism existed distinctively on its own. So like I was saying, the views of the Church in Rome were no different than the views from the Church in Jerusalem, in Antioch, in Damascus, etc. If the Church in Rome was apostate before 1054 AD for its doctrinal views then every other Church in Christendom was as well because they all shared the exact same beliefs.


And I already addressed your government evil battle cry with Ephesians. Government is only every antichrist when it suffers corrupt to be assimilated into it and we are meant to be soldiers against that wickedness not against government itself. You must be one of those Christianarchist.

News flash, Christ never said to tear down governments He said to be armored warriors in opposition to wickedness in high places. Take you eyes off the high places and start fighting the wickedness like you were told. The baby is sick but that doesn't mean you chop of the baby's head it means you cure the sickness.

And another fact of the matter is simply this. The Church in Rome lived in constant opposition to the Roman government. Constant. The Church in Rome separated from political power with Rome when it became the Vatican. It is now its own nation. Just like God's former kingdom on earth Israel.

And another thing! The Roman patriarchate is nothing in the grand scheme of Catholicism. Its really the presidency that gets all the big whoop. The See of Peter's primacy. So if one day separating from Roman government and being in the Vatican proves to be not enough the presidency can always pick up and move to somewhere else. It can become stationed in Greece just as easily as Peter HQ'd in Rome.


That's the point I am now confident you are simply ignoring. The Wh*re of Babylon is not a foreign christian chuurch that grew in Rome. The Wh*re of Babylon literally IS Rome. It is the city that rest on seven hills. Not the largest Christian Church who's head quarters rests on ONE! Gosh is you were strictly sola scriptura Catholicism shouldn't even be an option it rest on one stinking hill not seven. End of interrogation.

You are projecting you are idea of the Wh*re onto a body that does not fit EVERY scriptural requisite. You're not a sola scripture. You're a Sola Mike.

LH you really need to get a hold of your self. I won't debate with you. you don't even make sense. I have spoke the truth and it matters not what think.

I do have a hold of myself?  That post was not made in an excited state. You are simply doing what you always do Mclees. You make a cliam that is so baseless in Scripture and then assert to the whole world that its true while simotaneously preaching Sola Scriptura. Then when I oppose with Scripture you always weasel your way out of it. With the thread on government you  simply stated "Well I'm glad I don't have to listen to you" and left. Just give it up. Your theology has been proven wrong more than once in this forum and every time it is you always flee the site of its decaying corpse.

[mclees8]

You say more unsubstantiated stuff than anyone else on this forum. Anyone.

You obviously have your time line jacked up. Before the West even was called Roman Catholic the freedom to practice Christianity was already sanctioned in Rome. Constantine reigned almost 700 years before Roman Catholicism existed distinctively on its own. So like I was saying, the views of the Church in Rome were no different than the views from the Church in Jerusalem, in Antioch, in Damascus, etc. If the Church in Rome was apostate before 1054 AD for its doctrinal views then every other Church in Christendom was as well because they all shared the exact same beliefs.


And I already addressed your government evil battle cry with Ephesians. Government is only every antichrist when it suffers corrupt to be assimilated into it and we are meant to be soldiers against that wickedness not against government itself. You must be one of those Christianarchist.

News flash, Christ never said to tear down governments He said to be armored warriors in opposition to wickedness in high places. Take you eyes off the high places and start fighting the wickedness like you were told. The baby is sick but that doesn't mean you chop of the baby's head it means you cure the sickness.

And another fact of the matter is simply this. The Church in Rome lived in constant opposition to the Roman government. Constant. The Church in Rome separated from political power with Rome when it became the Vatican. It is now its own nation. Just like God's former kingdom on earth Israel.

And another thing! The Roman patriarchate is nothing in the grand scheme of Catholicism. Its really the presidency that gets all the big whoop. The See of Peter's primacy. So if one day separating from Roman government and being in the Vatican proves to be not enough the presidency can always pick up and move to somewhere else. It can become stationed in Greece just as easily as Peter HQ'd in Rome.


That's the point I am now confident you are simply ignoring. The Wh*re of Babylon is not a foreign christian chuurch that grew in Rome. The Wh*re of Babylon literally IS Rome. It is the city that rest on seven hills. Not the largest Christian Church who's head quarters rests on ONE! Gosh is you were strictly sola scriptura Catholicism shouldn't even be an option it rest on one stinking hill not seven. End of interrogation.

You are projecting you are idea of the Wh*re onto a body that does not fit EVERY scriptural requisite. You're not a sola scripture. You're a Sola Mike.

LH you really need to get a hold of your self. I won't debate with you. you don't even make sense. I have spoke the truth and it matters not what think.

I do have a hold of myself?  That post was not made in an excited state. You are simply doing what you always do Mclees. You make a cliam that is so baseless in Scripture and then assert to the whole world that its true while simotaneously preaching Sola Scriptura. Then when I oppose with Scripture you always weasel your way out of it. With the thread on government you  simply stated "Well I'm glad I don't have to listen to you" and left. Just give it up. Your theology has been proven wrong more than once in this forum and every time it is you always flee the site of its decaying corpse.

Did i say it wrong LH that the apostles Peter and Paul established churches in Rome which peter called Babylon. and at that time they were foreign to Rome as they were not excepted as any respected religion there or anywhere in the empire?

Did i say it wrong that the chruches there under perter and Paul had no interest in Rome politically?

Did i say it wrong that Babylon  comprises the whole world system religously Political, and commercial monetary. ?

Did i day it wrong that after 400 AD the bishops of Rome  became involved with The religious political power of Rome hence they became in league with each other where by they committed apostasy.

These things are true and you can see all that Babylon is when you read Rev 17 and 18.  All you do is dance around trying to deny what is obvious. And that is what you will keep on doing because you argumentative religious pride will not let you see the truth.

[LightHammer]

You say more unsubstantiated stuff than anyone else on this forum. Anyone.

You obviously have your time line jacked up. Before the West even was called Roman Catholic the freedom to practice Christianity was already sanctioned in Rome. Constantine reigned almost 700 years before Roman Catholicism existed distinctively on its own. So like I was saying, the views of the Church in Rome were no different than the views from the Church in Jerusalem, in Antioch, in Damascus, etc. If the Church in Rome was apostate before 1054 AD for its doctrinal views then every other Church in Christendom was as well because they all shared the exact same beliefs.


And I already addressed your government evil battle cry with Ephesians. Government is only every antichrist when it suffers corrupt to be assimilated into it and we are meant to be soldiers against that wickedness not against government itself. You must be one of those Christianarchist.

News flash, Christ never said to tear down governments He said to be armored warriors in opposition to wickedness in high places. Take you eyes off the high places and start fighting the wickedness like you were told. The baby is sick but that doesn't mean you chop of the baby's head it means you cure the sickness.

And another fact of the matter is simply this. The Church in Rome lived in constant opposition to the Roman government. Constant. The Church in Rome separated from political power with Rome when it became the Vatican. It is now its own nation. Just like God's former kingdom on earth Israel.

And another thing! The Roman patriarchate is nothing in the grand scheme of Catholicism. Its really the presidency that gets all the big whoop. The See of Peter's primacy. So if one day separating from Roman government and being in the Vatican proves to be not enough the presidency can always pick up and move to somewhere else. It can become stationed in Greece just as easily as Peter HQ'd in Rome.


That's the point I am now confident you are simply ignoring. The Wh*re of Babylon is not a foreign christian chuurch that grew in Rome. The Wh*re of Babylon literally IS Rome. It is the city that rest on seven hills. Not the largest Christian Church who's head quarters rests on ONE! Gosh is you were strictly sola scriptura Catholicism shouldn't even be an option it rest on one stinking hill not seven. End of interrogation.

You are projecting you are idea of the Wh*re onto a body that does not fit EVERY scriptural requisite. You're not a sola scripture. You're a Sola Mike.

LH you really need to get a hold of your self. I won't debate with you. you don't even make sense. I have spoke the truth and it matters not what think.

I do have a hold of myself?  That post was not made in an excited state. You are simply doing what you always do Mclees. You make a cliam that is so baseless in Scripture and then assert to the whole world that its true while simotaneously preaching Sola Scriptura. Then when I oppose with Scripture you always weasel your way out of it. With the thread on government you  simply stated "Well I'm glad I don't have to listen to you" and left. Just give it up. Your theology has been proven wrong more than once in this forum and every time it is you always flee the site of its decaying corpse.

Did i say it wrong LH that the apostles Peter and Paul established churches in Rome which peter called Babylon. and at that time they were foreign to Rome as they were not excepted as any respected religion there or anywhere in the empire?

Did i say it wrong that the chruches there under perter and Paul had no interest in Rome politically?

Did i say it wrong that Babylon  comprises the whole world system religously Political, and commercial monetary. ?

Did i day it wrong that after 400 AD the bishops of Rome  became involved with The religious political power of Rome hence they became in league with each other where by they committed apostasy.

These things are true and you can see all that Babylon is when you read Rev 17 and 18.  All you do is dance around trying to deny what is obvious. And that is what you will keep on doing because you argumentative religious pride will not let you see the truth.

What you said wrong is when you applied all those things to my Churc for the reasons I have already stated and you so brilliantly have left unaddressed.

Whose pride is blinding when you salsa dance around the validity of my points.

At the end of the day Rome rest on seven hills and Vatican rests on one. That simple and basic point in and of itself enough proves you wrong but if you want to go deeper into why your claim has went unsubstantiated then look at my previous posts. Any who honestly read this will see the falsehood of your claim.

[mclees8]

You say more unsubstantiated stuff than anyone else on this forum. Anyone.

You obviously have your time line jacked up. Before the West even was called Roman Catholic the freedom to practice Christianity was already sanctioned in Rome. Constantine reigned almost 700 years before Roman Catholicism existed distinctively on its own. So like I was saying, the views of the Church in Rome were no different than the views from the Church in Jerusalem, in Antioch, in Damascus, etc. If the Church in Rome was apostate before 1054 AD for its doctrinal views then every other Church in Christendom was as well because they all shared the exact same beliefs.


And I already addressed your government evil battle cry with Ephesians. Government is only every antichrist when it suffers corrupt to be assimilated into it and we are meant to be soldiers against that wickedness not against government itself. You must be one of those Christianarchist.

News flash, Christ never said to tear down governments He said to be armored warriors in opposition to wickedness in high places. Take you eyes off the high places and start fighting the wickedness like you were told. The baby is sick but that doesn't mean you chop of the baby's head it means you cure the sickness.

And another fact of the matter is simply this. The Church in Rome lived in constant opposition to the Roman government. Constant. The Church in Rome separated from political power with Rome when it became the Vatican. It is now its own nation. Just like God's former kingdom on earth Israel.

And another thing! The Roman patriarchate is nothing in the grand scheme of Catholicism. Its really the presidency that gets all the big whoop. The See of Peter's primacy. So if one day separating from Roman government and being in the Vatican proves to be not enough the presidency can always pick up and move to somewhere else. It can become stationed in Greece just as easily as Peter HQ'd in Rome.


That's the point I am now confident you are simply ignoring. The Wh*re of Babylon is not a foreign christian chuurch that grew in Rome. The Wh*re of Babylon literally IS Rome. It is the city that rest on seven hills. Not the largest Christian Church who's head quarters rests on ONE! Gosh is you were strictly sola scriptura Catholicism shouldn't even be an option it rest on one stinking hill not seven. End of interrogation.

You are projecting you are idea of the Wh*re onto a body that does not fit EVERY scriptural requisite. You're not a sola scripture. You're a Sola Mike.

LH you really need to get a hold of your self. I won't debate with you. you don't even make sense. I have spoke the truth and it matters not what think.

I do have a hold of myself?  That post was not made in an excited state. You are simply doing what you always do Mclees. You make a cliam that is so baseless in Scripture and then assert to the whole world that its true while simotaneously preaching Sola Scriptura. Then when I oppose with Scripture you always weasel your way out of it. With the thread on government you  simply stated "Well I'm glad I don't have to listen to you" and left. Just give it up. Your theology has been proven wrong more than once in this forum and every time it is you always flee the site of its decaying corpse.

Did i say it wrong LH that the apostles Peter and Paul established churches in Rome which peter called Babylon. and at that time they were foreign to Rome as they were not excepted as any respected religion there or anywhere in the empire?

Did i say it wrong that the chruches there under perter and Paul had no interest in Rome politically?

Did i say it wrong that Babylon  comprises the whole world system religously Political, and commercial monetary. ?

Did i day it wrong that after 400 AD the bishops of Rome  became involved with The religious political power of Rome hence they became in league with each other where by they committed apostasy.

These things are true and you can see all that Babylon is when you read Rev 17 and 18.  All you do is dance around trying to deny what is obvious. And that is what you will keep on doing because you argumentative religious pride will not let you see the truth.

What you said wrong is when you applied all those things to my Churc for the reasons I have already stated and you so brilliantly have left unaddressed.

Whose pride is blinding when you salsa dance around the validity of my points.

At the end of the day Rome rest on seven hills and Vatican rests on one. That simple and basic point in and of itself enough proves you wrong but if you want to go deeper into why your claim has went unsubstantiated then look at my previous posts. Any who honestly read this will see the falsehood of your claim.

I have heard the song and dance about the seven hills before. The point is the statements I made above are all true no matter what you have said that makes you think proves something. Address them and find any false statement.

[LightHammer]

You say more unsubstantiated stuff than anyone else on this forum. Anyone.

You obviously have your time line jacked up. Before the West even was called Roman Catholic the freedom to practice Christianity was already sanctioned in Rome. Constantine reigned almost 700 years before Roman Catholicism existed distinctively on its own. So like I was saying, the views of the Church in Rome were no different than the views from the Church in Jerusalem, in Antioch, in Damascus, etc. If the Church in Rome was apostate before 1054 AD for its doctrinal views then every other Church in Christendom was as well because they all shared the exact same beliefs.


And I already addressed your government evil battle cry with Ephesians. Government is only every antichrist when it suffers corrupt to be assimilated into it and we are meant to be soldiers against that wickedness not against government itself. You must be one of those Christianarchist.

News flash, Christ never said to tear down governments He said to be armored warriors in opposition to wickedness in high places. Take you eyes off the high places and start fighting the wickedness like you were told. The baby is sick but that doesn't mean you chop of the baby's head it means you cure the sickness.

And another fact of the matter is simply this. The Church in Rome lived in constant opposition to the Roman government. Constant. The Church in Rome separated from political power with Rome when it became the Vatican. It is now its own nation. Just like God's former kingdom on earth Israel.

And another thing! The Roman patriarchate is nothing in the grand scheme of Catholicism. Its really the presidency that gets all the big whoop. The See of Peter's primacy. So if one day separating from Roman government and being in the Vatican proves to be not enough the presidency can always pick up and move to somewhere else. It can become stationed in Greece just as easily as Peter HQ'd in Rome.


That's the point I am now confident you are simply ignoring. The Wh*re of Babylon is not a foreign christian chuurch that grew in Rome. The Wh*re of Babylon literally IS Rome. It is the city that rest on seven hills. Not the largest Christian Church who's head quarters rests on ONE! Gosh is you were strictly sola scriptura Catholicism shouldn't even be an option it rest on one stinking hill not seven. End of interrogation.

You are projecting you are idea of the Wh*re onto a body that does not fit EVERY scriptural requisite. You're not a sola scripture. You're a Sola Mike.

LH you really need to get a hold of your self. I won't debate with you. you don't even make sense. I have spoke the truth and it matters not what think.

I do have a hold of myself?  That post was not made in an excited state. You are simply doing what you always do Mclees. You make a cliam that is so baseless in Scripture and then assert to the whole world that its true while simotaneously preaching Sola Scriptura. Then when I oppose with Scripture you always weasel your way out of it. With the thread on government you  simply stated "Well I'm glad I don't have to listen to you" and left. Just give it up. Your theology has been proven wrong more than once in this forum and every time it is you always flee the site of its decaying corpse.

Did i say it wrong LH that the apostles Peter and Paul established churches in Rome which peter called Babylon. and at that time they were foreign to Rome as they were not excepted as any respected religion there or anywhere in the empire?

Did i say it wrong that the chruches there under perter and Paul had no interest in Rome politically?

Did i say it wrong that Babylon  comprises the whole world system religously Political, and commercial monetary. ?

Did i day it wrong that after 400 AD the bishops of Rome  became involved with The religious political power of Rome hence they became in league with each other where by they committed apostasy.

These things are true and you can see all that Babylon is when you read Rev 17 and 18.  All you do is dance around trying to deny what is obvious. And that is what you will keep on doing because you argumentative religious pride will not let you see the truth.

What you said wrong is when you applied all those things to my Churc for the reasons I have already stated and you so brilliantly have left unaddressed.

Whose pride is blinding when you salsa dance around the validity of my points.

At the end of the day Rome rest on seven hills and Vatican rests on one. That simple and basic point in and of itself enough proves you wrong but if you want to go deeper into why your claim has went unsubstantiated then look at my previous posts. Any who honestly read this will see the falsehood of your claim.

I have heard the song and dance about the seven hills before. The point is the statements I made above are all true no matter what you have said that makes you think proves something. Address them and find any false statement.

Which basically interprets to "Although Scripture says the Wh*re rests on seven hills, I, Michael of Gracecentered bypass that and still claim that the Vatican which resides on one is still the prophesised Wh*re of Babylon. To Hell with that measely point Sacred Scripture raises my great logic is so much more forthcoming!"

I will address them formerly if you wish. What political attachements of the Patriarchate of Rome are you referring to? Do you even know the extent of the the Church's political involvement in Rome after the Council of Nicea? What are you sources?

I'm going to enjoy watching this one fade away like shadow in the daylight.

Seeing how Scripture only matters when Mike deems it so lets go to history then.

Back up what you say about the life of the Church post 385 AD in Roman politics.

Because apparently Scripture freeing my Church from this claim means nothing to the protestants who deem their logic greater than its revelation.