An important message to Catholics

[SpiritHappy]

Jimmy do not waste your time. They are blinded my Religion.  It is all about Statues and Saints and Mary worship. Even Paul checked Peter for being a Hypocrite to his face in Acts. The 1st Pope..NONSENSE!

The Pope wears more jewelry than a gangsta rapper and has people kissing his ring. Even Peter would have slapped the Pope in his face for asking to have a ring kissed.

Jesus was humble and said wash each others feet. The Catholic church has the worst history of all time. Murders, Rapes, child abusers, silent on Hitler. Nothing they do comes from the Bible..all man made...remember paying your way to get out..with indulgences. Pray that God takes you out of these people..and Come back to the KING of KINGS ..not his mother.

The Popes will have to stand in front of Christ to be judged for their evil and so will we all. And the Pope cannot help you on that day.. even you Tu es Petrus..you do like all Catholics lifting up a man with your pictures of the Pope..he is just a sinner like anyone else.

 I serve no denominations..I serve the King of Kings...The Pope cannot even help himself on Judgement day. He should take off all that foolishness he wears and repent with Sackclothes and Ashes.

[Jimmy]

Other Christians--Restoration Movement Christians--teach that the Spirit isn't a person but is simply the influence of the Scriptures on the mind of a Christian so that the personal indwelling of the Spirit isn't even necessary let alone real? 

I don't know where you got that idea.  It is certainly not a teaching of the Restoration Movement.

After all, no Christian is saved apart from the Church. 

The Christian is the Church.  The RCC is just one of a group of believers within the Body of Christ.

We are in Christ through the indwelling Holy Spirit, not through the life of any (some highly suspect) man save Jesus Christ Himself.

No Roman Catholic or Orthodox claims to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit through the Pope or any other bishop.  You are making false claims that aren't true, and therefore this comment is empty.

But you do make that claim, at least implicitly.  When you said above that "no Christian is saved apart from the Church"  and you claim that list of men to demonsrtate the incarnal nature of the Church, you in effect have proclaimed the Holy Spirit can be acquired only by virtue of those men.  It is not an empty claim.  It is the very heart and soul of the RCC.

[SpiritHappy]

But that's partly what's at issue.  How does anyone of these Christians know that they have the Holy Spirit?

That is the problem with Catholics you have never seen the power of the Holy Spirit, your Churches are dead. No Spirit..No life..half the people sleeping at the Mass. You need to see a REAL Church on fire from God

If you had the Holy Spirit you would know..and since you do not know you do not have it. Those who do have the Spirit know.
 
When is the last time you saw a real sinner repeat and get baptised. You cannot because you baptize babies, denying them a true baptism which is when an adult  accepts Christ. God help you all when Christ returns

[Mystery Man]

Quote CDHealy: After all, no Christian is saved apart from the Church."

This statement is not true !  The reason it is  not true, is because of how you use this statement.  What you are actually saying, is that no one is saved except by the Catholic Church.

Salvation is through Christ Jesus, and the accomplishments of the cross and resurrection.  When we were baptized in Christ's death, and resurrection, we were cleased from all sin.  The church "is" the body of Christ.  We are saved by grace through faith.

If you do not recognize others who are not Catholic, and who are IN Christ, and  not a part of the RCC, then you are denying what the scriptures tell us.

How do you know ?   You shall know them by their fruit.

[CDHealy]

Other Christians--Restoration Movement Christians--teach that the Spirit isn't a person but is simply the influence of the Scriptures on the mind of a Christian so that the personal indwelling of the Spirit isn't even necessary let alone real? 

I don't know where you got that idea.  It is certainly not a teaching of the Restoration Movement.

The beginnings of it can be seen here: http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/texts/tcampbell/mh/SVAHSCSS.HTM
"Moreover were we to attempt to separate the Spirit from the Word, or the Word from the Spirit, the consequence must prove fatal: for it would not only be separating what God has constitutionally and [498]  solemnly united, saying, "As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord: My Spirit is upon them, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth, and forever." Isai. lix. 21. But, moreover, to separate these, would also be depriving ourselves of that blissful certainty of our salvation, which the Word and Spirit of God, only when united, can give. Wherefore, what God has thus solemnly joined together, let not man dare to put asunder. Again, if either the Word or the Spirit separately, had been sufficient to have answered the divine purpose, why give us both? Do we not learn from the uniform tenor of the Good Book, that the Word without the Spirit could not save us? For "no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit." 1 Cor. xii. 3. Also, is it evident, that the Spirit without his divinely authenticated Word, would be inaccessible to us? "

Also here: http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/texts/jharding/HSABR.HTM
"The Spirit helps our infirmity. What that means it is probable we will not fully understand till we come before the judgment seat of Christ: but some that are included in its meaning, I think, are clear. One great defect of man, even after the life of Christ on earth, was lack of knowledge of divine things. The Spirit has certainly helped our infirmity at the point by giving to us, through apostles and prophets, the perfect law of liberty: and he has thus furnished us "completely unto every good work." We need expect nothing more in this line this side of the second coming of Christ. "

And for what it's worth, one of my Bible college professors, at Ozark Christian College, taught this very thing.

After all, no Christian is saved apart from the Church. 

The Christian is the Church.  The RCC is just one of a group of believers within the Body of Christ.

The Christian is the Church?  Where do you get that in Scripture?

We are in Christ through the indwelling Holy Spirit, not through the life of any (some highly suspect) man save Jesus Christ Himself.

No Roman Catholic or Orthodox claims to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit through the Pope or any other bishop.  You are making false claims that aren't true, and therefore this comment is empty.

But you do make that claim, at least implicitly.  When you said above that "no Christian is saved apart from the Church"  and you claim that list of men to demonsrtate the incarnal nature of the Church, you in effect have proclaimed the Holy Spirit can be acquired only by virtue of those men.  It is not an empty claim.  It is the very heart and soul of the RCC.

No, there is no logical implication such as you claim.  It is an empty claim because Rome does not claim it.  I'd like to see you provide the appropriate citations from official Roman Catholic sites to prove it (I know you can't).

[CDHealy]

Quote CDHealy: After all, no Christian is saved apart from the Church."

This statement is not true !  The reason it is  not true, is because of how you use this statement.  What you are actually saying, is that no one is saved except by the Catholic Church.

No, that is not what I'm saying--though I've been falsely accused of saying that.  It's not what I'm saying because I'm Orthodox and not Roman Catholic.  But it's also not what I'm saying because my Orthodox ecclesiology does not say that, nor is it logically necessary from my ecclesiology.

Salvation is through Christ Jesus, and the accomplishments of the cross and resurrection.  When we were baptized in Christ's death, and resurrection, we were cleased from all sin.  The church "is" the body of Christ.  We are saved by grace through faith.

I would agree with this, and I would point out that you have made my point for me.

If you do not recognize others who are not Catholic, and who are IN Christ, and  not a part of the RCC, then you are denying what the scriptures tell us.

I am on record here of recognizing that the Spirit saves people outside the visible boundaries of the Church.  I believe that non-Orthodox believers are Christians.  You cannot make my position to logically entail that just because I say no one is saved apart from the Church that there are not Christians outside the visible boundaries of the Church.

From your vantage point you think so, because to you the Church has no visibility, it's boundaries are invisible.  But I do not agree with your vantage point, and you cannot get to your conclusion from my vantage point.

[CDHealy]

That is the problem with Catholics you have never seen the power of the Holy Spirit, your Churches are dead. No Spirit..No life..half the people sleeping at the Mass. You need to see a REAL Church on fire from God

It would seem to me that this violates some of the board rules.  I have some recent experience in receiving some board discipline so I think I'm on solid ground here.

If you had the Holy Spirit you would know..and since you do not know you do not have it. Those who do have the Spirit know.

If you are questioning whether I have the Holy Spirit--and in context your comment appears to be doing that very thing--then I think you are violating board rules.

But I would also point out that this "argument" for how one knows one is indwelt by the Holy Spirit is circular.  Essentially you're saying that one knows because one knows.  Not helpful.
 

When is the last time you saw a real sinner repeat and get baptised. You cannot because you baptize babies, denying them a true baptism which is when an adult  accepts Christ. God help you all when Christ returns

I saw three adults baptized at Pascha (or Easter).  I also saw a baby baptized that same day.  All four have been united to Christ.

[Mystery Man]

Quote CDHealy: After all, no Christian is saved apart from the Church."

This statement is not true !  The reason it is  not true, is because of how you use this statement.  What you are actually saying, is that no one is saved except by the Catholic Church.

No, that is not what I'm saying--though I've been falsely accused of saying that.  It's not what I'm saying because I'm Orthodox and not Roman Catholic.  But it's also not what I'm saying because my Orthodox ecclesiology does not say that, nor is it logically necessary from my ecclesiology.

Salvation is through Christ Jesus, and the accomplishments of the cross and resurrection.  When we were baptized in Christ's death, and resurrection, we were cleased from all sin.  The church "is" the body of Christ.  We are saved by grace through faith.

I would agree with this, and I would point out that you have made my point for me.

If you do not recognize others who are not Catholic, and who are IN Christ, and  not a part of the RCC, then you are denying what the scriptures tell us.

I am on record here of recognizing that the Spirit saves people outside the visible boundaries of the Church.  I believe that non-Orthodox believers are Christians.  You cannot make my position to logically entail that just because I say no one is saved apart from the Church that there are not Christians outside the visible boundaries of the Church.

From your vantage point you think so, because to you the Church has no visibility, it's boundaries are invisible.  But I do not agree with your vantage point, and you cannot get to your conclusion from my vantage point.

OK, my appolgy for assuming. 

I do believe that the "Church" is not a building or an organization.  The spiritual can not be seen with our physical eyes.  The body of Christ, the wife to Christ is spiritual.  I believe in predestination, that God has chosen whomever he pleases, from before the foundation of the world, to put them into the body where it pleases him.

[Tu Es Petrus]

Jimmy do not waste your time. They are blinded my Religion.  It is all about Statues and Saints and Mary worship.....

Talk about blind. Don't people ever get tired of spreading the lies - and I do mean LIES - that we worship Mary? We do not, and any Christian that is half-way intelligent KNOWS that we do not.

Thats stuff belongs in Chick Tracts, not in an intelligent conversation.

[ole Jake]

Jimmy do not waste your time. They are blinded my Religion.  It is all about Statues and Saints and Mary worship.....

Talk about blind. Don't people ever get tired of spreading the lies - and I do mean LIES - that we worship Mary? We do not, and any Christian that is half-way intelligent KNOWS that we do not.

Thats stuff belongs in Chick Tracts, not in an intelligent conversation.

Perhaps you need to consider that rather being some kind of freaky aberration, Jack Chick is the essence and a telos of Protestantism.

[Tu Es Petrus]

Oh, I don't know about that. I think most mainstream protestants are descent, God-fearing folks. I surely don't believe that some of the goofballs in this forum represent the average protestant. I would think that someone like Lee Freeman is more like the average protestant. At least, I sure hope so.

[Bocephus]

Do some Catholics worship Mary?  How many Catholics are devout and how many are Cafeteria Catholics?

[Tu Es Petrus]

Do some Catholics worship Mary? 

No

How many Catholics are devout and how many are Cafeteria Catholics?

I don't know. We have a lot of rotten Catholics, ones who won't accept the Church's teachings on abortion, euthenasia, etc. But worshipping Mary? Come on, please: Who on God's green earth would worship a human being as a god.

[Bocephus]

Do some Catholics worship Mary? 

No

How many Catholics are devout and how many are Cafeteria Catholics?

I don't know. We have a lot of rotten Catholics, ones who won't accept the Church's teachings on abortion, euthenasia, etc. But worshipping Mary? Come on, please: Who on God's green earth would worship a human being as a god.

Lots of folks do lots of crazy things.  Have you ever heard of Yahweh Ben Yahweh?  So it would not surprise me that a Catholic person would worship Mary.

[James.]

I'm unlocking this thread, but it will be monitored. 

And in case a review of the posting rules is in order...
http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php/topic,13977.0.html