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Author Topic: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)  (Read 12978 times)

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Offline Swiss_Guard

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #45 on: October 04, 2011, 08:56:32 PM »
Quote
  Will YOU say at least as much positive about me and my church as I did about yours?





.



The Missouri Synod Lutheran Church is the most prominent misguided sect in Synod, Missouri....and in my opinion, the best.
Jesu Optimus Maximus!

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #45 on: October 04, 2011, 08:56:32 PM »

Offline Josiah

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #46 on: October 05, 2011, 06:43:39 AM »
.


Over and over at this website, it seems to be a standard Catholic apologetic that a statement by a Protestant is WRONG because the Protestant is "anti-Catholic" (and thus no other reply is needed).

I've had that accusation leveled at me MANY times - as the "end all" rebuttal.  

I wish to address that....

THIS is my public and passionate position vis-a-vis the RCC:

"I embrace the RCC as a valid, sound and good denomination that I hold in great esteem.  I regard its ministers and ministries as all valid.  I regard all its Sacraments and the administration thereof to be valid.  I consider all believers in it to be my FULL and UNseparated and entirely equal and equally blessed brothers and sisters in Christ.  I pray daily for God's greatest blessings upon it, it's ministers and ministries and it's Holy Father."


Now, I CAN understand how my fellow Protestants would (and sometimes do) disagree with me, but my question is this:  Does that position make me categorically "ANTI-CATHOLIC?"  Is the accusation leveled at me over and over and over by the Catholics here just and accurate?   Does my "anti-Catholicism" mean that ergo I'm wrong and no further discussion is suggested, my extreme "anti-Catholicism" proves I'm wrong?   THAT is my question (especially to the many Catholics here).



Catholics:  Will you say as much positive about ME and MY church (the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod)?   IF not, then who is the more "anti?"



.



I will say that to me your statement is a positive one concerning the Catholic Church. As a Catholic I appreciate the sentiment.  As from the posts I"ve read of yours, I did not sense that you were/are especially "anti-catholic" per se,  but it seems that you are not willing to acknowledge the initial universality of the Chistian church, and at times you do seem to come across as less than enthused about us.


Thank you.  You seem to be unique among Catholics in this regard...

No.  Actually I DO embrace the universality of the Christian church - in the beginning, now and eternally.  Which is why, with most Protestants, I confess that the church is "one, holy, catholic, communion of saints."   

I'm actually VERY "enthused" about your denomination.  While I "left" such, I did so with NO 'hard feelings' - indeed, with considerable sadness and regret, and only after CONSIDERABLE prayer and discussion (including specifically with my priest).  I actually uphold it as perhaps the best denomination - in many ways, I regard it better than the one my current congregation belongs to.  Yes, I DO think that A FEW of the things it teaches AS DOGMA shouldn't be DOGMA (I tend to be more of the Eastern Orthodox perspective on some of these), and there are TWO dogmas (rather key and interrelated) that I disagree with, these dealing with ecclesiology and epistemology.  When I left your denomination, I told my priest that I agree with probably 95% of what I had been taught and probably disagreed with 1% of it.  He knew this to be true because we had just discussed my faith.  His response to my comment was this (I think this is verbatim), "Josiah - that's a whole lot better than most Catholics, heck - it's probably better than a lot of priests."  I don't know about the last part (I really only know well one priest - and he's very conservative) but I think the first part IS true - at least from my experience with the Catholics known to me. 



Quote
Sure we have our differences about doctrine, worship, etc, but we should never forget that which binds us, our combined belief in Jesus Christ as the Savior, God Himself come to earth.

The FAITH that unites us is powerful and complete...

The DOCTRINE that divides us is not always so significant and often not so relevant. 

The church remains one, holy, catholic, communion of saints.  We ARE full, unseparted, totally equally brothers and sisters in Christ.  Not always articulating all things identically - but then that's NEVER been the case.  I realize that Catholicism fundamentally disagrees with me on this, but there's nothing I (or you) can do about that.  We CAN share our views (even respectfully, maybe even here at this website?) but some dogmas are meant to divide and institutionalize, and they do. 


Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah





.

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #46 on: October 05, 2011, 06:43:39 AM »

Offline Ladonia

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #47 on: October 05, 2011, 07:47:36 AM »
.


Over and over at this website, it seems to be a standard Catholic apologetic that a statement by a Protestant is WRONG because the Protestant is "anti-Catholic" (and thus no other reply is needed).

I've had that accusation leveled at me MANY times - as the "end all" rebuttal.  

I wish to address that....

THIS is my public and passionate position vis-a-vis the RCC:

"I embrace the RCC as a valid, sound and good denomination that I hold in great esteem.  I regard its ministers and ministries as all valid.  I regard all its Sacraments and the administration thereof to be valid.  I consider all believers in it to be my FULL and UNseparated and entirely equal and equally blessed brothers and sisters in Christ.  I pray daily for God's greatest blessings upon it, it's ministers and ministries and it's Holy Father."


Now, I CAN understand how my fellow Protestants would (and sometimes do) disagree with me, but my question is this:  Does that position make me categorically "ANTI-CATHOLIC?"  Is the accusation leveled at me over and over and over by the Catholics here just and accurate?   Does my "anti-Catholicism" mean that ergo I'm wrong and no further discussion is suggested, my extreme "anti-Catholicism" proves I'm wrong?   THAT is my question (especially to the many Catholics here).



Catholics:  Will you say as much positive about ME and MY church (the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod)?   IF not, then who is the more "anti?"



.



I will say that to me your statement is a positive one concerning the Catholic Church. As a Catholic I appreciate the sentiment.  As from the posts I"ve read of yours, I did not sense that you were/are especially "anti-catholic" per se,  but it seems that you are not willing to acknowledge the initial universality of the Chistian church, and at times you do seem to come across as less than enthused about us.


Thank you.  You seem to be unique among Catholics in this regard...

No.  Actually I DO embrace the universality of the Christian church - in the beginning, now and eternally.  Which is why, with most Protestants, I confess that the church is "one, holy, catholic, communion of saints."  

I'm actually VERY "enthused" about your denomination.  While I "left" such, I did so with NO 'hard feelings' - indeed, with considerable sadness and regret, and only after CONSIDERABLE prayer and discussion (including specifically with my priest).  I actually uphold it as perhaps the best denomination - in many ways, I regard it better than the one my current congregation belongs to.  Yes, I DO think that A FEW of the things it teaches AS DOGMA shouldn't be DOGMA (I tend to be more of the Eastern Orthodox perspective on some of these), and there are TWO dogmas (rather key and interrelated) that I disagree with, these dealing with ecclesiology and epistemology.  When I left your denomination, I told my priest that I agree with probably 95% of what I had been taught and probably disagreed with 1% of it.  He knew this to be true because we had just discussed my faith.  His response to my comment was this (I think this is verbatim), "Josiah - that's a whole lot better than most Catholics, heck - it's probably better than a lot of priests."  I don't know about the last part (I really only know well one priest - and he's very conservative) but I think the first part IS true - at least from my experience with the Catholics known to me.  



Quote
Sure we have our differences about doctrine, worship, etc, but we should never forget that which binds us, our combined belief in Jesus Christ as the Savior, God Himself come to earth.

The FAITH that unites us is powerful and complete...

The DOCTRINE that divides us is not always so significant and often not so relevant.  

The church remains one, holy, catholic, communion of saints.  We ARE full, unseparted, totally equally brothers and sisters in Christ.  Not always articulating all things identically - but then that's NEVER been the case.  I realize that Catholicism fundamentally disagrees with me on this, but there's nothing I (or you) can do about that.  We CAN share our views (even respectfully, maybe even here at this website?) but some dogmas are meant to divide and institutionalize, and they do.  


Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah





.

I disagree with your last statement that some dogmas are MEANT to divide. They are what they are and people are free to either accept or reject them. I agree on your "institutionalise" comment though, it is what it is, the institution of the Catholic Church for all to see. I accept this concept wholeheartedly and have no problem with it whatsoever. I am happy for you in your new place. One has to do a be in a place where they are most comfortable.

 Like I had said before, I have been to many a Lutheren service and found it different for sure, especially with women ministers and  I really did not have a problem with that. But in the I am an Roman Catholic through and through and that's that. The only other denomination I could even think of converting to would be the Eastern Orthodox. I really like their liturgy.

Offline Swiss_Guard

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #48 on: October 05, 2011, 08:07:44 AM »
Quote

The FAITH that unites us is powerful and complete...

The DOCTRINE that divides us is not always so significant and often not so relevant. 

The church remains one, holy, catholic, communion of saints.  Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah





.
You agree that the Catholic Church is the 'one holy communion of Saints'---which is is why of course you left it to join a rival church whose original purpose in existing was to overthrow and replace the 'one holy communion of Saints'. You'll pardon my finding that contradictory?
Jesu Optimus Maximus!

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #48 on: October 05, 2011, 08:07:44 AM »

Offline Josiah

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #49 on: October 05, 2011, 08:15:22 AM »
Quote

The FAITH that unites us is powerful and complete...

The DOCTRINE that divides us is not always so significant and often not so relevant. 

The church remains one, holy, catholic, communion of saints.  Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah





.
You agree that the Catholic Church is the 'one holy communion of Saints'-

WHAT?    ::lookaround::  ::help::

WHERE in the WORLD did I say any such thing?




.

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #49 on: October 05, 2011, 08:15:22 AM »



Offline Swiss_Guard

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #50 on: October 05, 2011, 08:23:31 AM »



Quote
You agree that the Catholic Church is the 'one holy communion of Saints'-

Quote
WHAT?    ::lookaround::  ::help::

WHERE in the WORLD did I say any such thing?




.
"The church remains one, holy, catholic, communion of saints.  Thank you!"
                
"I actually uphold it as perhaps the best denomination....."
                
"in many ways, I regard it better than the one my current congregation belongs to....."
                




 Unlike you, I can actually answer a question. ;)
« Last Edit: October 05, 2011, 08:32:16 AM by Swiss_Guard »
Jesu Optimus Maximus!

Offline Josiah

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #51 on: October 05, 2011, 08:49:16 AM »


Quote from: Josiah
Quote from: Swiss_Guard

You agree that the Catholic Church is the 'one holy communion of Saints'-

 WHAT?    ::lookaround::  ::help::

WHERE in the WORLD did I say any such thing?


.

"The church remains one, holy, catholic, communion of saints.  Thank you!"
                
"I actually uphold it as perhaps the best denomination....."
                
"in many ways, I regard it better than the one my current congregation belongs to....."


Thank you.  But your comment has NOTHING to do with our discussion.  


You already forgot.  Here's what you posted to me:

Quote
You agree that the Catholic Church is the 'one holy communion of Saints'


Of course, I NEVER remotely posted any such thing.  As you document.

  
Thus, my question.  
Which you didn't answer (maybe you just forgot what you posted to me)
                



.

Offline Ladonia

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #52 on: October 05, 2011, 08:51:02 AM »



Quote
You agree that the Catholic Church is the 'one holy communion of Saints'-

Quote
WHAT?    ::lookaround::  ::help::

WHERE in the WORLD did I say any such thing?




.
"The church remains one, holy, catholic, communion of saints.  Thank you!"
                
"I actually uphold it as perhaps the best denomination....."
                
"in many ways, I regard it better than the one my current congregation belongs to....."
                




 Unlike you, I can actually answer a question. ;)

Josiah seems to be meaning the church as a body of believers, not the Western Rite exclusively. (I think)

Offline Swiss_Guard

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #53 on: October 05, 2011, 08:57:38 AM »
.


Over and over at this website, it seems to be a standard Catholic apologetic that a statement by a Protestant is WRONG because the Protestant is "anti-Catholic" (and thus no other reply is needed).

I've had that accusation leveled at me MANY times - as the "end all" rebuttal.  

I wish to address that....

THIS is my public and passionate position vis-a-vis the RCC:

"I embrace the RCC as a valid, sound and good denomination that I hold in great esteem.  I regard its ministers and ministries as all valid.  I regard all its Sacraments and the administration thereof to be valid.  I consider all believers in it to be my FULL and UNseparated and entirely equal and equally blessed brothers and sisters in Christ.  I pray daily for God's greatest blessings upon it, it's ministers and ministries and it's Holy Father."


Now, I CAN understand how my fellow Protestants would (and sometimes do) disagree with me, but my question is this:  Does that position make me categorically "ANTI-CATHOLIC?"  Is the accusation leveled at me over and over and over by the Catholics here just and accurate?   Does my "anti-Catholicism" mean that ergo I'm wrong and no further discussion is suggested, my extreme "anti-Catholicism" proves I'm wrong?   THAT is my question (especially to the many Catholics here).



Catholics:  Will you say as much positive about ME and MY church (the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod)?   IF not, then who is the more "anti?"



.



I will say that to me your statement is a positive one concerning the Catholic Church. As a Catholic I appreciate the sentiment.  As from the posts I"ve read of yours, I did not sense that you were/are especially "anti-catholic" per se,  but it seems that you are not willing to acknowledge the initial universality of the Chistian church, and at times you do seem to come across as less than enthused about us.


Thank you.  You seem to be unique among Catholics in this regard...

No.  Actually I DO embrace the universality of the Christian church - in the beginning, now and eternally.  Which is why, with most Protestants, I confess that the church is "one, holy, catholic, communion of saints."   

I'm actually VERY "enthused" about your denomination.  While I "left" such, I did so with NO 'hard feelings' - indeed, with considerable sadness and regret, and only after CONSIDERABLE prayer and discussion (including specifically with my priest).  I actually uphold it as perhaps the best denomination - in many ways, I regard it better than the one my current congregation belongs to.  Yes, I DO think that A FEW of the things it teaches AS DOGMA shouldn't be DOGMA (I tend to be more of the Eastern Orthodox perspective on some of these), and there are TWO dogmas (rather key and interrelated) that I disagree with, these dealing with ecclesiology and epistemology.  When I left your denomination, I told my priest that I agree with probably 95% of what I had been taught and probably disagreed with 1% of it.  He knew this to be true because we had just discussed my faith.  His response to my comment was this (I think this is verbatim), "Josiah - that's a whole lot better than most Catholics, heck - it's probably better than a lot of priests."  I don't know about the last part (I really only know well one priest - and he's very conservative) but I think the first part IS true - at least from my experience with the Catholics known to me. 



Quote
Sure we have our differences about doctrine, worship, etc, but we should never forget that which binds us, our combined belief in Jesus Christ as the Savior, God Himself come to earth.

The FAITH that unites us is powerful and complete...

The DOCTRINE that divides us is not always so significant and often not so relevant. 

The church remains one, holy, catholic, communion of saints.  We ARE full, unseparted, totally equally brothers and sisters in Christ.  Not always articulating all things identically - but then that's NEVER been the case.  I realize that Catholicism fundamentally disagrees with me on this, but there's nothing I (or you) can do about that.  We CAN share our views (even respectfully, maybe even here at this website?) but some dogmas are meant to divide and institutionalize, and they do. 


Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah





.
HERE is your exact post. You said that the "The church remains one, holy, catholic, communion of saints." Generally speaking, references to "The Church" are usually taken to mean the Roman Catholic Church, which has always been the largest.
Jesu Optimus Maximus!

Offline Josiah

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #54 on: October 05, 2011, 09:25:38 AM »
.


Over and over at this website, it seems to be a standard Catholic apologetic that a statement by a Protestant is WRONG because the Protestant is "anti-Catholic" (and thus no other reply is needed).

I've had that accusation leveled at me MANY times - as the "end all" rebuttal.  

I wish to address that....

THIS is my public and passionate position vis-a-vis the RCC:

"I embrace the RCC as a valid, sound and good denomination that I hold in great esteem.  I regard its ministers and ministries as all valid.  I regard all its Sacraments and the administration thereof to be valid.  I consider all believers in it to be my FULL and UNseparated and entirely equal and equally blessed brothers and sisters in Christ.  I pray daily for God's greatest blessings upon it, it's ministers and ministries and it's Holy Father."


Now, I CAN understand how my fellow Protestants would (and sometimes do) disagree with me, but my question is this:  Does that position make me categorically "ANTI-CATHOLIC?"  Is the accusation leveled at me over and over and over by the Catholics here just and accurate?   Does my "anti-Catholicism" mean that ergo I'm wrong and no further discussion is suggested, my extreme "anti-Catholicism" proves I'm wrong?   THAT is my question (especially to the many Catholics here).



Catholics:  Will you say as much positive about ME and MY church (the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod)?   IF not, then who is the more "anti?"



.



I will say that to me your statement is a positive one concerning the Catholic Church. As a Catholic I appreciate the sentiment.  As from the posts I"ve read of yours, I did not sense that you were/are especially "anti-catholic" per se,  but it seems that you are not willing to acknowledge the initial universality of the Chistian church, and at times you do seem to come across as less than enthused about us.


Thank you.  You seem to be unique among Catholics in this regard...

No.  Actually I DO embrace the universality of the Christian church - in the beginning, now and eternally.  Which is why, with most Protestants, I confess that the church is "one, holy, catholic, communion of saints."  

I'm actually VERY "enthused" about your denomination.  While I "left" such, I did so with NO 'hard feelings' - indeed, with considerable sadness and regret, and only after CONSIDERABLE prayer and discussion (including specifically with my priest).  I actually uphold it as perhaps the best denomination - in many ways, I regard it better than the one my current congregation belongs to.  Yes, I DO think that A FEW of the things it teaches AS DOGMA shouldn't be DOGMA (I tend to be more of the Eastern Orthodox perspective on some of these), and there are TWO dogmas (rather key and interrelated) that I disagree with, these dealing with ecclesiology and epistemology.  When I left your denomination, I told my priest that I agree with probably 95% of what I had been taught and probably disagreed with 1% of it.  He knew this to be true because we had just discussed my faith.  His response to my comment was this (I think this is verbatim), "Josiah - that's a whole lot better than most Catholics, heck - it's probably better than a lot of priests."  I don't know about the last part (I really only know well one priest - and he's very conservative) but I think the first part IS true - at least from my experience with the Catholics known to me.  



Quote
Sure we have our differences about doctrine, worship, etc, but we should never forget that which binds us, our combined belief in Jesus Christ as the Savior, God Himself come to earth.

The FAITH that unites us is powerful and complete...

The DOCTRINE that divides us is not always so significant and often not so relevant.  

The church remains one, holy, catholic, communion of saints.  We ARE full, unseparted, totally equally brothers and sisters in Christ.  Not always articulating all things identically - but then that's NEVER been the case.  I realize that Catholicism fundamentally disagrees with me on this, but there's nothing I (or you) can do about that.  We CAN share our views (even respectfully, maybe even here at this website?) but some dogmas are meant to divide and institutionalize, and they do.  


Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah





.
HERE is your exact post. You said that the "The church remains one, holy, catholic, communion of saints." Generally speaking, references to "The Church" are usually taken to mean the Roman Catholic Church, which has always been the largest.


Thank you for proving yourself wrong.   You saved me the time to do so (and it's always best when errors are self-discovered).

No, I did not post "The Catholic Church."  You're right, I didn't post "Catholic" or "Church."  You're right, it is a violation of English grammar to capitolize adjectives - and I didn't do so.  And as you know, proper nouns (as in names) are to be capitolized - and I didn't do that.  You CHANGED what you now realized I posted, turning an adjective into a proper noun, the legal name of a denomination.  You realize that now.

You yourself discovered your error.  Good. 





.

« Last Edit: October 05, 2011, 09:35:54 AM by Josiah »

Offline Swiss_Guard

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #55 on: October 05, 2011, 09:59:57 AM »
.


Over and over at this website, it seems to be a standard Catholic apologetic that a statement by a Protestant is WRONG because the Protestant is "anti-Catholic" (and thus no other reply is needed).

I've had that accusation leveled at me MANY times - as the "end all" rebuttal.  

I wish to address that....

THIS is my public and passionate position vis-a-vis the RCC:

"I embrace the RCC as a valid, sound and good denomination that I hold in great esteem.  I regard its ministers and ministries as all valid.  I regard all its Sacraments and the administration thereof to be valid.  I consider all believers in it to be my FULL and UNseparated and entirely equal and equally blessed brothers and sisters in Christ.  I pray daily for God's greatest blessings upon it, it's ministers and ministries and it's Holy Father."


Now, I CAN understand how my fellow Protestants would (and sometimes do) disagree with me, but my question is this:  Does that position make me categorically "ANTI-CATHOLIC?"  Is the accusation leveled at me over and over and over by the Catholics here just and accurate?   Does my "anti-Catholicism" mean that ergo I'm wrong and no further discussion is suggested, my extreme "anti-Catholicism" proves I'm wrong?   THAT is my question (especially to the many Catholics here).



Catholics:  Will you say as much positive about ME and MY church (the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod)?   IF not, then who is the more "anti?"



.



I will say that to me your statement is a positive one concerning the Catholic Church. As a Catholic I appreciate the sentiment.  As from the posts I"ve read of yours, I did not sense that you were/are especially "anti-catholic" per se,  but it seems that you are not willing to acknowledge the initial universality of the Chistian church, and at times you do seem to come across as less than enthused about us.


Thank you.  You seem to be unique among Catholics in this regard...

No.  Actually I DO embrace the universality of the Christian church - in the beginning, now and eternally.  Which is why, with most Protestants, I confess that the church is "one, holy, catholic, communion of saints."  

I'm actually VERY "enthused" about your denomination.  While I "left" such, I did so with NO 'hard feelings' - indeed, with considerable sadness and regret, and only after CONSIDERABLE prayer and discussion (including specifically with my priest).  I actually uphold it as perhaps the best denomination - in many ways, I regard it better than the one my current congregation belongs to.  Yes, I DO think that A FEW of the things it teaches AS DOGMA shouldn't be DOGMA (I tend to be more of the Eastern Orthodox perspective on some of these), and there are TWO dogmas (rather key and interrelated) that I disagree with, these dealing with ecclesiology and epistemology.  When I left your denomination, I told my priest that I agree with probably 95% of what I had been taught and probably disagreed with 1% of it.  He knew this to be true because we had just discussed my faith.  His response to my comment was this (I think this is verbatim), "Josiah - that's a whole lot better than most Catholics, heck - it's probably better than a lot of priests."  I don't know about the last part (I really only know well one priest - and he's very conservative) but I think the first part IS true - at least from my experience with the Catholics known to me.  



Quote
Sure we have our differences about doctrine, worship, etc, but we should never forget that which binds us, our combined belief in Jesus Christ as the Savior, God Himself come to earth.

The FAITH that unites us is powerful and complete...

The DOCTRINE that divides us is not always so significant and often not so relevant.  

The church remains one, holy, catholic, communion of saints.  We ARE full, unseparted, totally equally brothers and sisters in Christ.  Not always articulating all things identically - but then that's NEVER been the case.  I realize that Catholicism fundamentally disagrees with me on this, but there's nothing I (or you) can do about that.  We CAN share our views (even respectfully, maybe even here at this website?) but some dogmas are meant to divide and institutionalize, and they do.  


Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah





.
HERE is your exact post. You said that the "The church remains one, holy, catholic, communion of saints." Generally speaking, references to "The Church" are usually taken to mean the Roman Catholic Church, which has always been the largest.


Thank you for proving yourself wrong.   You saved me the time to do so (and it's always best when errors are self-discovered).

No, I did not post "The Catholic Church."  You're right, I didn't post "Catholic" or "Church."  You're right, it is a violation of English grammar to capitolize adjectives - and I didn't do so.  And as you know, proper nouns (as in names) are to be capitolized - and I didn't do that.  You CHANGED what you now realized I posted, turning an adjective into a proper noun, the legal name of a denomination.  You realize that now.

You yourself discovered your error.  Good. 





.


You can well understand how such a mistake came to be made. You refered to a "one, holy, catholic communion of Saints"; such a title can hardly be applied to the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church.
Jesu Optimus Maximus!

Offline Josiah

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #56 on: October 05, 2011, 10:38:14 AM »
.


Over and over at this website, it seems to be a standard Catholic apologetic that a statement by a Protestant is WRONG because the Protestant is "anti-Catholic" (and thus no other reply is needed).

I've had that accusation leveled at me MANY times - as the "end all" rebuttal.  

I wish to address that....

THIS is my public and passionate position vis-a-vis the RCC:

"I embrace the RCC as a valid, sound and good denomination that I hold in great esteem.  I regard its ministers and ministries as all valid.  I regard all its Sacraments and the administration thereof to be valid.  I consider all believers in it to be my FULL and UNseparated and entirely equal and equally blessed brothers and sisters in Christ.  I pray daily for God's greatest blessings upon it, it's ministers and ministries and it's Holy Father."


Now, I CAN understand how my fellow Protestants would (and sometimes do) disagree with me, but my question is this:  Does that position make me categorically "ANTI-CATHOLIC?"  Is the accusation leveled at me over and over and over by the Catholics here just and accurate?   Does my "anti-Catholicism" mean that ergo I'm wrong and no further discussion is suggested, my extreme "anti-Catholicism" proves I'm wrong?   THAT is my question (especially to the many Catholics here).



Catholics:  Will you say as much positive about ME and MY church (the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod)?   IF not, then who is the more "anti?"



.



I will say that to me your statement is a positive one concerning the Catholic Church. As a Catholic I appreciate the sentiment.  As from the posts I"ve read of yours, I did not sense that you were/are especially "anti-catholic" per se,  but it seems that you are not willing to acknowledge the initial universality of the Chistian church, and at times you do seem to come across as less than enthused about us.


Thank you.  You seem to be unique among Catholics in this regard...

No.  Actually I DO embrace the universality of the Christian church - in the beginning, now and eternally.  Which is why, with most Protestants, I confess that the church is "one, holy, catholic, communion of saints."  

I'm actually VERY "enthused" about your denomination.  While I "left" such, I did so with NO 'hard feelings' - indeed, with considerable sadness and regret, and only after CONSIDERABLE prayer and discussion (including specifically with my priest).  I actually uphold it as perhaps the best denomination - in many ways, I regard it better than the one my current congregation belongs to.  Yes, I DO think that A FEW of the things it teaches AS DOGMA shouldn't be DOGMA (I tend to be more of the Eastern Orthodox perspective on some of these), and there are TWO dogmas (rather key and interrelated) that I disagree with, these dealing with ecclesiology and epistemology.  When I left your denomination, I told my priest that I agree with probably 95% of what I had been taught and probably disagreed with 1% of it.  He knew this to be true because we had just discussed my faith.  His response to my comment was this (I think this is verbatim), "Josiah - that's a whole lot better than most Catholics, heck - it's probably better than a lot of priests."  I don't know about the last part (I really only know well one priest - and he's very conservative) but I think the first part IS true - at least from my experience with the Catholics known to me.  



Quote
Sure we have our differences about doctrine, worship, etc, but we should never forget that which binds us, our combined belief in Jesus Christ as the Savior, God Himself come to earth.

The FAITH that unites us is powerful and complete...

The DOCTRINE that divides us is not always so significant and often not so relevant.  

The church remains one, holy, catholic, communion of saints.  We ARE full, unseparted, totally equally brothers and sisters in Christ.  Not always articulating all things identically - but then that's NEVER been the case.  I realize that Catholicism fundamentally disagrees with me on this, but there's nothing I (or you) can do about that.  We CAN share our views (even respectfully, maybe even here at this website?) but some dogmas are meant to divide and institutionalize, and they do.  


Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah





.
HERE is your exact post. You said that the "The church remains one, holy, catholic, communion of saints." Generally speaking, references to "The Church" are usually taken to mean the Roman Catholic Church, which has always been the largest.


Thank you for proving yourself wrong.   You saved me the time to do so (and it's always best when errors are self-discovered).

No, I did not post "The Catholic Church."  You're right, I didn't post "Catholic" or "Church."  You're right, it is a violation of English grammar to capitolize adjectives - and I didn't do so.  And as you know, proper nouns (as in names) are to be capitolized - and I didn't do that.  You CHANGED what you now realized I posted, turning an adjective into a proper noun, the legal name of a denomination.  You realize that now.

You yourself discovered your error.  Good. 





.


You can well understand how such a mistake came to be made. You refered to a "one, holy, catholic communion of Saints"; such a title can hardly be applied to the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church.

Of course.  But then I posted "one, holy, catholic, communion of saints" not "The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod." 


Thank you.



.

Offline Swiss_Guard

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #57 on: October 05, 2011, 10:50:58 AM »
.


Over and over at this website, it seems to be a standard Catholic apologetic that a statement by a Protestant is WRONG because the Protestant is "anti-Catholic" (and thus no other reply is needed).

I've had that accusation leveled at me MANY times - as the "end all" rebuttal.  

I wish to address that....

THIS is my public and passionate position vis-a-vis the RCC:

"I embrace the RCC as a valid, sound and good denomination that I hold in great esteem.  I regard its ministers and ministries as all valid.  I regard all its Sacraments and the administration thereof to be valid.  I consider all believers in it to be my FULL and UNseparated and entirely equal and equally blessed brothers and sisters in Christ.  I pray daily for God's greatest blessings upon it, it's ministers and ministries and it's Holy Father."


Now, I CAN understand how my fellow Protestants would (and sometimes do) disagree with me, but my question is this:  Does that position make me categorically "ANTI-CATHOLIC?"  Is the accusation leveled at me over and over and over by the Catholics here just and accurate?   Does my "anti-Catholicism" mean that ergo I'm wrong and no further discussion is suggested, my extreme "anti-Catholicism" proves I'm wrong?   THAT is my question (especially to the many Catholics here).



Catholics:  Will you say as much positive about ME and MY church (the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod)?   IF not, then who is the more "anti?"



.



I will say that to me your statement is a positive one concerning the Catholic Church. As a Catholic I appreciate the sentiment.  As from the posts I"ve read of yours, I did not sense that you were/are especially "anti-catholic" per se,  but it seems that you are not willing to acknowledge the initial universality of the Chistian church, and at times you do seem to come across as less than enthused about us.


Thank you.  You seem to be unique among Catholics in this regard...

No.  Actually I DO embrace the universality of the Christian church - in the beginning, now and eternally.  Which is why, with most Protestants, I confess that the church is "one, holy, catholic, communion of saints."  

I'm actually VERY "enthused" about your denomination.  While I "left" such, I did so with NO 'hard feelings' - indeed, with considerable sadness and regret, and only after CONSIDERABLE prayer and discussion (including specifically with my priest).  I actually uphold it as perhaps the best denomination - in many ways, I regard it better than the one my current congregation belongs to.  Yes, I DO think that A FEW of the things it teaches AS DOGMA shouldn't be DOGMA (I tend to be more of the Eastern Orthodox perspective on some of these), and there are TWO dogmas (rather key and interrelated) that I disagree with, these dealing with ecclesiology and epistemology.  When I left your denomination, I told my priest that I agree with probably 95% of what I had been taught and probably disagreed with 1% of it.  He knew this to be true because we had just discussed my faith.  His response to my comment was this (I think this is verbatim), "Josiah - that's a whole lot better than most Catholics, heck - it's probably better than a lot of priests."  I don't know about the last part (I really only know well one priest - and he's very conservative) but I think the first part IS true - at least from my experience with the Catholics known to me.  



Quote
Sure we have our differences about doctrine, worship, etc, but we should never forget that which binds us, our combined belief in Jesus Christ as the Savior, God Himself come to earth.

The FAITH that unites us is powerful and complete...

The DOCTRINE that divides us is not always so significant and often not so relevant.  

The church remains one, holy, catholic, communion of saints.  We ARE full, unseparted, totally equally brothers and sisters in Christ.  Not always articulating all things identically - but then that's NEVER been the case.  I realize that Catholicism fundamentally disagrees with me on this, but there's nothing I (or you) can do about that.  We CAN share our views (even respectfully, maybe even here at this website?) but some dogmas are meant to divide and institutionalize, and they do.  


Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah





.
HERE is your exact post. You said that the "The church remains one, holy, catholic, communion of saints." Generally speaking, references to "The Church" are usually taken to mean the Roman Catholic Church, which has always been the largest.


Thank you for proving yourself wrong.   You saved me the time to do so (and it's always best when errors are self-discovered).

No, I did not post "The Catholic Church."  You're right, I didn't post "Catholic" or "Church."  You're right, it is a violation of English grammar to capitolize adjectives - and I didn't do so.  And as you know, proper nouns (as in names) are to be capitolized - and I didn't do that.  You CHANGED what you now realized I posted, turning an adjective into a proper noun, the legal name of a denomination.  You realize that now.

You yourself discovered your error.  Good. 





.


You can well understand how such a mistake came to be made. You refered to a "one, holy, catholic communion of Saints"; such a title can hardly be applied to the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church.

Of course.  But then I posted "one, holy, catholic, communion of saints" not "The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod." 


Thank you.



.
Yes, but  when you refer to a one, holy, catholic communion of saints, is it so unreasonable to assume that you're refering to the RCC and not Christians in general? I mean, there are literally tens of thousands of protestant mini-sects; I hardly consider them to be a single, Catholic Communion of Saints.
Jesu Optimus Maximus!

Offline mclees8

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #58 on: October 05, 2011, 09:14:25 PM »
Hello Swiss_Guard

You asked.......
"Faith without works is dead." (James 2:17-20) Care to explain away that particular quote, or has your Church removed that passage from their version of the Bible?

Offline free-in-Christ

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #59 on: October 05, 2011, 10:00:00 PM »
Hi  mclees8

Don’t worry about getting here late.

You said.......
“I know i  am comming int to threat a little late and this is on the first page, but I see no conflict between We are justified by faith and  faith without works is dead.