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Author Topic: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)  (Read 14212 times)

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Offline free-in-Christ

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #35 on: Tue Oct 04, 2011 - 20:00:19 »
Hello LightHammer

You said..........
“Good works are the body of faith. You are seemingly trying to say that good works go hand and hand with faith. That is false. Faith is not a separate idea from Godly works.

Godly works is the left arm of Faith and belief is its right arm. Not separate but portions of the whole.

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #35 on: Tue Oct 04, 2011 - 20:00:19 »

Offline LightHammer

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #36 on: Tue Oct 04, 2011 - 20:05:06 »
Hello LightHammer

You said..........
“Good works are the body of faith. You are seemingly trying to say that good works go hand and hand with faith. That is false. Faith is not a separate idea from Godly works.

Godly works is the left arm of Faith and belief is its right arm. Not separate but portions of the whole.

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #36 on: Tue Oct 04, 2011 - 20:05:06 »

larry2

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #37 on: Tue Oct 04, 2011 - 20:13:44 »



'Faith' is not simply 'believing' in God; as I said, by that definition, even the Devil has faith. Good works and a godly, Christian life are included in real faith.



Good works are the product of a godly born again life; not the origin of it. With all your doing, do you have faith to know without a doubt that you are saved by the sacrifice Christ made for you, or are you trusting and hoping to do better so that you're accepted by God?


Good works are the body of faith. You are seemingly trying to say that good works go hand and hand with faith. That is false. Faith is not a separate idea from Godly works.

Godly works is the left arm of Faith and belief is its right arm. Not separate but portions of the whole.



Nice saying of man, but faith is God given; not produced by man. Even in hearing of the word faith grows, and that too is of God. All of you can stop boasting of your holiness and begin giving God the credit.

Again in Ephesians 2:8-9  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Even the things we achieve are God's work in us (Not by us). Philippians 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Ephesians 2:10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them, and as God's work in us, it is God doing even that. 
 
Romans 8:29  God is presently doing a work in us to be conformed to the image of His Son.

The big difference I see in many is that they do not know that they belong to God yet, and are saved, and being saved, and are going to be saved; they are the religious continuing in the way of Cain (The bloodless offering).

Salvation produces a change in heart that makes us want to have God's best for our lives just as He wants us to. Knowing that we're saved, we can "Be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." (Romans 12:2). In other words, have we gone from the good will of God to the perfect will of God.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

Elvisman

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #38 on: Tue Oct 04, 2011 - 20:17:54 »

"Faith without works is dead" is a clear, concise message.



Can you expound your position? What work is saving you?



Obeying the Ten Commandments. Helping the less fortunate if you can afford it. Keeping places of worship in good repair. Being honest in all your dealings. Being faithful to your spouse. Striving to be a good person in general. If you lead a rotten life and die unrepentant, all the faith and belief in the world won't spare you from God's justice.


But the Bible says.......

James 2:10-11
V.10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.
V.11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.


Therefor to be saved by Good works....YOU HAVE TO BE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN PERFECT!

And no one can do that!

And if you knew the Scriptures you would know that James is speaking of the MOSAIC Law which is impossible to keep - not the NEW Covenant . . .

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #38 on: Tue Oct 04, 2011 - 20:17:54 »

larry2

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #39 on: Tue Oct 04, 2011 - 20:48:49 »

"Faith without works is dead" is a clear, concise message.



Can you expound your position? What work is saving you?



Obeying the Ten Commandments. Helping the less fortunate if you can afford it. Keeping places of worship in good repair. Being honest in all your dealings. Being faithful to your spouse. Striving to be a good person in general. If you lead a rotten life and die unrepentant, all the faith and belief in the world won't spare you from God's justice.


But the Bible says.......

James 2:10-11
V.10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.
V.11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.


Therefor to be saved by Good works....YOU HAVE TO BE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN PERFECT!

And no one can do that!

And if you knew the Scriptures you would know that James is speaking of the MOSAIC Law which is impossible to keep - not the NEW Covenant . . .

Dear free-in Christ, you are correct and the verse is relevant to any law keeping as the source of life in Christ. We are not saved by works period, and if the Pharisees dictating the scriptures would learn that, they would surmise they don't keep the New Covenant either. They're captains of their own ship? they haven't a clue. They would have you following a blind guide, when they can't accomplish the task themselves; what a bunch of bull.
 ::tippinghat::

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #39 on: Tue Oct 04, 2011 - 20:48:49 »



Offline LightHammer

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #40 on: Tue Oct 04, 2011 - 21:16:52 »



'Faith' is not simply 'believing' in God; as I said, by that definition, even the Devil has faith. Good works and a godly, Christian life are included in real faith.



Good works are the product of a godly born again life; not the origin of it. With all your doing, do you have faith to know without a doubt that you are saved by the sacrifice Christ made for you, or are you trusting and hoping to do better so that you're accepted by God?


Good works are the body of faith. You are seemingly trying to say that good works go hand and hand with faith. That is false. Faith is not a separate idea from Godly works.

Godly works is the left arm of Faith and belief is its right arm. Not separate but portions of the whole.



Nice saying of man, but faith is God given; not produced by man. Even in hearing of the word faith grows, and that too is of God. All of you can stop boasting of your holiness and begin giving God the credit.

Again in Ephesians 2:8-9  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Even the things we achieve are God's work in us (Not by us). Philippians 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Ephesians 2:10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them, and as God's work in us, it is God doing even that.  
  
Romans 8:29  God is presently doing a work in us to be conformed to the image of His Son.

The big difference I see in many is that they do not know that they belong to God yet, and are saved, and being saved, and are going to be saved; they are the religious continuing in the way of Cain (The bloodless offering).

Salvation produces a change in heart that makes us want to have God's best for our lives just as He wants us to. Knowing that we're saved, we can "Be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." (Romans 12:2). In other words, have we gone from the good will of God to the perfect will of God.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.



We all know where faith comes from. I thought we were talking about what faith is?

That was what I was addressing at least. Faith is submission to God through belief in His Truth and performing His Godly works.

Right arm and left arm.

Offline Ladonia

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #41 on: Tue Oct 04, 2011 - 21:18:03 »
.


Over and over at this website, it seems to be a standard Catholic apologetic that a statement by a Protestant is WRONG because the Protestant is "anti-Catholic" (and thus no other reply is needed).

I've had that accusation leveled at me MANY times - as the "end all" rebuttal.  

I wish to address that....

THIS is my public and passionate position vis-a-vis the RCC:

"I embrace the RCC as a valid, sound and good denomination that I hold in great esteem.  I regard its ministers and ministries as all valid.  I regard all its Sacraments and the administration thereof to be valid.  I consider all believers in it to be my FULL and UNseparated and entirely equal and equally blessed brothers and sisters in Christ.  I pray daily for God's greatest blessings upon it, it's ministers and ministries and it's Holy Father."


Now, I CAN understand how my fellow Protestants would (and sometimes do) disagree with me, but my question is this:  Does that position make me categorically "ANTI-CATHOLIC?"  Is the accusation leveled at me over and over and over by the Catholics here just and accurate?   Does my "anti-Catholicism" mean that ergo I'm wrong and no further discussion is suggested, my extreme "anti-Catholicism" proves I'm wrong?   THAT is my question (especially to the many Catholics here).



Catholics:  Will you say as much positive about ME and MY church (the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod)?   IF not, then who is the more "anti?"



.



I will say that to me your statement is a positive one concerning the Catholic Church. As a Catholic I appreciate the sentiment.  As from the posts I"ve read of yours, I did not sense that you were/are especially "anti-catholic" per se,  but it seems that you are not willing to acknowledge the initial universality of the Chistian church, and at times you do seem to come across as less than enthused about us.

I am Catholic because it is the faith I was born into and returned to as an adult. It is the faith tradition that I am most comfortable with and sincerely believe in it's teachings, with it's emphasis on the Sacraments as a way of living. My wife had been Lutheren before her conversion to Catholicism and I have been to many a Lutheren service, though not at the Missouri Synod branch, which my wife just now informs me is the most traditional form of Lutherenism.

Now with your faith tradition of Lutheranism and it's rejection of the Papacy, I can readily understand the bias that may exist. I myself have struggled with my bias towards others of diifferent faiths and have worked hard to believe in a sincere live and let live attitude. I am happy that my fellow Christians are also seeking God and trying to live holy lives as I am and that is a truly wonderful thing.
 
Can it really be argued against that at one time there was but only one universal Christian Church in both the spiritual and physical sense? Call it catholic, call it universal, call it just christian, call it whatever, but there was just one. History tells us however that a breakup did occur and we Christians are now reaping the whirlwind of that sad turn of events today.

Sure we have our differences about doctrine, worship, etc, but we should never forget that which binds us, our combined belief in Jesus Christ as the Savior, God Himself come to earth.

Offline Ladonia

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #42 on: Tue Oct 04, 2011 - 21:28:17 »
Hello Josiah

I am very new here, and when I read the title of this thread, I was expecting something totally different.

For one, if you or I speak the truth(according to the Bible), it does not matter what ANYBODY says about us; “The Truth stands on it’s own

Offline Ladonia

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #43 on: Tue Oct 04, 2011 - 21:38:49 »
Hello again Swiss_Guard

I am not surprised that you do not understand my response.
Because the Bible says........
1 Corinthians 2:14
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Offline LightHammer

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #44 on: Tue Oct 04, 2011 - 21:40:52 »
Hello again Swiss_Guard

I am not surprised that you do not understand my response.
Because the Bible says........
1 Corinthians 2:14
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Offline Swiss_Guard

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #45 on: Tue Oct 04, 2011 - 21:56:32 »
Quote
  Will YOU say at least as much positive about me and my church as I did about yours?





.



The Missouri Synod Lutheran Church is the most prominent misguided sect in Synod, Missouri....and in my opinion, the best.

Offline Josiah

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #46 on: Wed Oct 05, 2011 - 07:43:39 »
.


Over and over at this website, it seems to be a standard Catholic apologetic that a statement by a Protestant is WRONG because the Protestant is "anti-Catholic" (and thus no other reply is needed).

I've had that accusation leveled at me MANY times - as the "end all" rebuttal.  

I wish to address that....

THIS is my public and passionate position vis-a-vis the RCC:

"I embrace the RCC as a valid, sound and good denomination that I hold in great esteem.  I regard its ministers and ministries as all valid.  I regard all its Sacraments and the administration thereof to be valid.  I consider all believers in it to be my FULL and UNseparated and entirely equal and equally blessed brothers and sisters in Christ.  I pray daily for God's greatest blessings upon it, it's ministers and ministries and it's Holy Father."


Now, I CAN understand how my fellow Protestants would (and sometimes do) disagree with me, but my question is this:  Does that position make me categorically "ANTI-CATHOLIC?"  Is the accusation leveled at me over and over and over by the Catholics here just and accurate?   Does my "anti-Catholicism" mean that ergo I'm wrong and no further discussion is suggested, my extreme "anti-Catholicism" proves I'm wrong?   THAT is my question (especially to the many Catholics here).



Catholics:  Will you say as much positive about ME and MY church (the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod)?   IF not, then who is the more "anti?"



.



I will say that to me your statement is a positive one concerning the Catholic Church. As a Catholic I appreciate the sentiment.  As from the posts I"ve read of yours, I did not sense that you were/are especially "anti-catholic" per se,  but it seems that you are not willing to acknowledge the initial universality of the Chistian church, and at times you do seem to come across as less than enthused about us.


Thank you.  You seem to be unique among Catholics in this regard...

No.  Actually I DO embrace the universality of the Christian church - in the beginning, now and eternally.  Which is why, with most Protestants, I confess that the church is "one, holy, catholic, communion of saints."   

I'm actually VERY "enthused" about your denomination.  While I "left" such, I did so with NO 'hard feelings' - indeed, with considerable sadness and regret, and only after CONSIDERABLE prayer and discussion (including specifically with my priest).  I actually uphold it as perhaps the best denomination - in many ways, I regard it better than the one my current congregation belongs to.  Yes, I DO think that A FEW of the things it teaches AS DOGMA shouldn't be DOGMA (I tend to be more of the Eastern Orthodox perspective on some of these), and there are TWO dogmas (rather key and interrelated) that I disagree with, these dealing with ecclesiology and epistemology.  When I left your denomination, I told my priest that I agree with probably 95% of what I had been taught and probably disagreed with 1% of it.  He knew this to be true because we had just discussed my faith.  His response to my comment was this (I think this is verbatim), "Josiah - that's a whole lot better than most Catholics, heck - it's probably better than a lot of priests."  I don't know about the last part (I really only know well one priest - and he's very conservative) but I think the first part IS true - at least from my experience with the Catholics known to me. 



Quote
Sure we have our differences about doctrine, worship, etc, but we should never forget that which binds us, our combined belief in Jesus Christ as the Savior, God Himself come to earth.

The FAITH that unites us is powerful and complete...

The DOCTRINE that divides us is not always so significant and often not so relevant. 

The church remains one, holy, catholic, communion of saints.  We ARE full, unseparted, totally equally brothers and sisters in Christ.  Not always articulating all things identically - but then that's NEVER been the case.  I realize that Catholicism fundamentally disagrees with me on this, but there's nothing I (or you) can do about that.  We CAN share our views (even respectfully, maybe even here at this website?) but some dogmas are meant to divide and institutionalize, and they do. 


Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah





.

Offline Ladonia

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #47 on: Wed Oct 05, 2011 - 08:47:36 »
.


Over and over at this website, it seems to be a standard Catholic apologetic that a statement by a Protestant is WRONG because the Protestant is "anti-Catholic" (and thus no other reply is needed).

I've had that accusation leveled at me MANY times - as the "end all" rebuttal.  

I wish to address that....

THIS is my public and passionate position vis-a-vis the RCC:

"I embrace the RCC as a valid, sound and good denomination that I hold in great esteem.  I regard its ministers and ministries as all valid.  I regard all its Sacraments and the administration thereof to be valid.  I consider all believers in it to be my FULL and UNseparated and entirely equal and equally blessed brothers and sisters in Christ.  I pray daily for God's greatest blessings upon it, it's ministers and ministries and it's Holy Father."


Now, I CAN understand how my fellow Protestants would (and sometimes do) disagree with me, but my question is this:  Does that position make me categorically "ANTI-CATHOLIC?"  Is the accusation leveled at me over and over and over by the Catholics here just and accurate?   Does my "anti-Catholicism" mean that ergo I'm wrong and no further discussion is suggested, my extreme "anti-Catholicism" proves I'm wrong?   THAT is my question (especially to the many Catholics here).



Catholics:  Will you say as much positive about ME and MY church (the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod)?   IF not, then who is the more "anti?"



.



I will say that to me your statement is a positive one concerning the Catholic Church. As a Catholic I appreciate the sentiment.  As from the posts I"ve read of yours, I did not sense that you were/are especially "anti-catholic" per se,  but it seems that you are not willing to acknowledge the initial universality of the Chistian church, and at times you do seem to come across as less than enthused about us.


Thank you.  You seem to be unique among Catholics in this regard...

No.  Actually I DO embrace the universality of the Christian church - in the beginning, now and eternally.  Which is why, with most Protestants, I confess that the church is "one, holy, catholic, communion of saints."  

I'm actually VERY "enthused" about your denomination.  While I "left" such, I did so with NO 'hard feelings' - indeed, with considerable sadness and regret, and only after CONSIDERABLE prayer and discussion (including specifically with my priest).  I actually uphold it as perhaps the best denomination - in many ways, I regard it better than the one my current congregation belongs to.  Yes, I DO think that A FEW of the things it teaches AS DOGMA shouldn't be DOGMA (I tend to be more of the Eastern Orthodox perspective on some of these), and there are TWO dogmas (rather key and interrelated) that I disagree with, these dealing with ecclesiology and epistemology.  When I left your denomination, I told my priest that I agree with probably 95% of what I had been taught and probably disagreed with 1% of it.  He knew this to be true because we had just discussed my faith.  His response to my comment was this (I think this is verbatim), "Josiah - that's a whole lot better than most Catholics, heck - it's probably better than a lot of priests."  I don't know about the last part (I really only know well one priest - and he's very conservative) but I think the first part IS true - at least from my experience with the Catholics known to me.  



Quote
Sure we have our differences about doctrine, worship, etc, but we should never forget that which binds us, our combined belief in Jesus Christ as the Savior, God Himself come to earth.

The FAITH that unites us is powerful and complete...

The DOCTRINE that divides us is not always so significant and often not so relevant.  

The church remains one, holy, catholic, communion of saints.  We ARE full, unseparted, totally equally brothers and sisters in Christ.  Not always articulating all things identically - but then that's NEVER been the case.  I realize that Catholicism fundamentally disagrees with me on this, but there's nothing I (or you) can do about that.  We CAN share our views (even respectfully, maybe even here at this website?) but some dogmas are meant to divide and institutionalize, and they do.  


Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah





.

I disagree with your last statement that some dogmas are MEANT to divide. They are what they are and people are free to either accept or reject them. I agree on your "institutionalise" comment though, it is what it is, the institution of the Catholic Church for all to see. I accept this concept wholeheartedly and have no problem with it whatsoever. I am happy for you in your new place. One has to do a be in a place where they are most comfortable.

 Like I had said before, I have been to many a Lutheren service and found it different for sure, especially with women ministers and  I really did not have a problem with that. But in the I am an Roman Catholic through and through and that's that. The only other denomination I could even think of converting to would be the Eastern Orthodox. I really like their liturgy.

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #48 on: Wed Oct 05, 2011 - 09:07:44 »
Quote

The FAITH that unites us is powerful and complete...

The DOCTRINE that divides us is not always so significant and often not so relevant. 

The church remains one, holy, catholic, communion of saints.  Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah





.
You agree that the Catholic Church is the 'one holy communion of Saints'---which is is why of course you left it to join a rival church whose original purpose in existing was to overthrow and replace the 'one holy communion of Saints'. You'll pardon my finding that contradictory?

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #49 on: Wed Oct 05, 2011 - 09:15:22 »
Quote

The FAITH that unites us is powerful and complete...

The DOCTRINE that divides us is not always so significant and often not so relevant. 

The church remains one, holy, catholic, communion of saints.  Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah





.
You agree that the Catholic Church is the 'one holy communion of Saints'-

WHAT?    ::lookaround::  ::help::

WHERE in the WORLD did I say any such thing?




.

Offline Swiss_Guard

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #50 on: Wed Oct 05, 2011 - 09:23:31 »



Quote
You agree that the Catholic Church is the 'one holy communion of Saints'-

Quote
WHAT?    ::lookaround::  ::help::

WHERE in the WORLD did I say any such thing?




.
"The church remains one, holy, catholic, communion of saints.  Thank you!"
                
"I actually uphold it as perhaps the best denomination....."
                
"in many ways, I regard it better than the one my current congregation belongs to....."
                




 Unlike you, I can actually answer a question. ;)
« Last Edit: Wed Oct 05, 2011 - 09:32:16 by Swiss_Guard »

Offline Josiah

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #51 on: Wed Oct 05, 2011 - 09:49:16 »


Quote from: Josiah
Quote from: Swiss_Guard

You agree that the Catholic Church is the 'one holy communion of Saints'-

 WHAT?    ::lookaround::  ::help::

WHERE in the WORLD did I say any such thing?


.

"The church remains one, holy, catholic, communion of saints.  Thank you!"
                
"I actually uphold it as perhaps the best denomination....."
                
"in many ways, I regard it better than the one my current congregation belongs to....."


Thank you.  But your comment has NOTHING to do with our discussion.  


You already forgot.  Here's what you posted to me:

Quote
You agree that the Catholic Church is the 'one holy communion of Saints'


Of course, I NEVER remotely posted any such thing.  As you document.

  
Thus, my question.  
Which you didn't answer (maybe you just forgot what you posted to me)
                



.

Offline Ladonia

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #52 on: Wed Oct 05, 2011 - 09:51:02 »



Quote
You agree that the Catholic Church is the 'one holy communion of Saints'-

Quote
WHAT?    ::lookaround::  ::help::

WHERE in the WORLD did I say any such thing?




.
"The church remains one, holy, catholic, communion of saints.  Thank you!"
                
"I actually uphold it as perhaps the best denomination....."
                
"in many ways, I regard it better than the one my current congregation belongs to....."
                




 Unlike you, I can actually answer a question. ;)

Josiah seems to be meaning the church as a body of believers, not the Western Rite exclusively. (I think)

Offline Swiss_Guard

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #53 on: Wed Oct 05, 2011 - 09:57:38 »
.


Over and over at this website, it seems to be a standard Catholic apologetic that a statement by a Protestant is WRONG because the Protestant is "anti-Catholic" (and thus no other reply is needed).

I've had that accusation leveled at me MANY times - as the "end all" rebuttal.  

I wish to address that....

THIS is my public and passionate position vis-a-vis the RCC:

"I embrace the RCC as a valid, sound and good denomination that I hold in great esteem.  I regard its ministers and ministries as all valid.  I regard all its Sacraments and the administration thereof to be valid.  I consider all believers in it to be my FULL and UNseparated and entirely equal and equally blessed brothers and sisters in Christ.  I pray daily for God's greatest blessings upon it, it's ministers and ministries and it's Holy Father."


Now, I CAN understand how my fellow Protestants would (and sometimes do) disagree with me, but my question is this:  Does that position make me categorically "ANTI-CATHOLIC?"  Is the accusation leveled at me over and over and over by the Catholics here just and accurate?   Does my "anti-Catholicism" mean that ergo I'm wrong and no further discussion is suggested, my extreme "anti-Catholicism" proves I'm wrong?   THAT is my question (especially to the many Catholics here).



Catholics:  Will you say as much positive about ME and MY church (the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod)?   IF not, then who is the more "anti?"



.



I will say that to me your statement is a positive one concerning the Catholic Church. As a Catholic I appreciate the sentiment.  As from the posts I"ve read of yours, I did not sense that you were/are especially "anti-catholic" per se,  but it seems that you are not willing to acknowledge the initial universality of the Chistian church, and at times you do seem to come across as less than enthused about us.


Thank you.  You seem to be unique among Catholics in this regard...

No.  Actually I DO embrace the universality of the Christian church - in the beginning, now and eternally.  Which is why, with most Protestants, I confess that the church is "one, holy, catholic, communion of saints."   

I'm actually VERY "enthused" about your denomination.  While I "left" such, I did so with NO 'hard feelings' - indeed, with considerable sadness and regret, and only after CONSIDERABLE prayer and discussion (including specifically with my priest).  I actually uphold it as perhaps the best denomination - in many ways, I regard it better than the one my current congregation belongs to.  Yes, I DO think that A FEW of the things it teaches AS DOGMA shouldn't be DOGMA (I tend to be more of the Eastern Orthodox perspective on some of these), and there are TWO dogmas (rather key and interrelated) that I disagree with, these dealing with ecclesiology and epistemology.  When I left your denomination, I told my priest that I agree with probably 95% of what I had been taught and probably disagreed with 1% of it.  He knew this to be true because we had just discussed my faith.  His response to my comment was this (I think this is verbatim), "Josiah - that's a whole lot better than most Catholics, heck - it's probably better than a lot of priests."  I don't know about the last part (I really only know well one priest - and he's very conservative) but I think the first part IS true - at least from my experience with the Catholics known to me. 



Quote
Sure we have our differences about doctrine, worship, etc, but we should never forget that which binds us, our combined belief in Jesus Christ as the Savior, God Himself come to earth.

The FAITH that unites us is powerful and complete...

The DOCTRINE that divides us is not always so significant and often not so relevant. 

The church remains one, holy, catholic, communion of saints.  We ARE full, unseparted, totally equally brothers and sisters in Christ.  Not always articulating all things identically - but then that's NEVER been the case.  I realize that Catholicism fundamentally disagrees with me on this, but there's nothing I (or you) can do about that.  We CAN share our views (even respectfully, maybe even here at this website?) but some dogmas are meant to divide and institutionalize, and they do. 


Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah





.
HERE is your exact post. You said that the "The church remains one, holy, catholic, communion of saints." Generally speaking, references to "The Church" are usually taken to mean the Roman Catholic Church, which has always been the largest.

Offline Josiah

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #54 on: Wed Oct 05, 2011 - 10:25:38 »
.


Over and over at this website, it seems to be a standard Catholic apologetic that a statement by a Protestant is WRONG because the Protestant is "anti-Catholic" (and thus no other reply is needed).

I've had that accusation leveled at me MANY times - as the "end all" rebuttal.  

I wish to address that....

THIS is my public and passionate position vis-a-vis the RCC:

"I embrace the RCC as a valid, sound and good denomination that I hold in great esteem.  I regard its ministers and ministries as all valid.  I regard all its Sacraments and the administration thereof to be valid.  I consider all believers in it to be my FULL and UNseparated and entirely equal and equally blessed brothers and sisters in Christ.  I pray daily for God's greatest blessings upon it, it's ministers and ministries and it's Holy Father."


Now, I CAN understand how my fellow Protestants would (and sometimes do) disagree with me, but my question is this:  Does that position make me categorically "ANTI-CATHOLIC?"  Is the accusation leveled at me over and over and over by the Catholics here just and accurate?   Does my "anti-Catholicism" mean that ergo I'm wrong and no further discussion is suggested, my extreme "anti-Catholicism" proves I'm wrong?   THAT is my question (especially to the many Catholics here).



Catholics:  Will you say as much positive about ME and MY church (the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod)?   IF not, then who is the more "anti?"



.



I will say that to me your statement is a positive one concerning the Catholic Church. As a Catholic I appreciate the sentiment.  As from the posts I"ve read of yours, I did not sense that you were/are especially "anti-catholic" per se,  but it seems that you are not willing to acknowledge the initial universality of the Chistian church, and at times you do seem to come across as less than enthused about us.


Thank you.  You seem to be unique among Catholics in this regard...

No.  Actually I DO embrace the universality of the Christian church - in the beginning, now and eternally.  Which is why, with most Protestants, I confess that the church is "one, holy, catholic, communion of saints."  

I'm actually VERY "enthused" about your denomination.  While I "left" such, I did so with NO 'hard feelings' - indeed, with considerable sadness and regret, and only after CONSIDERABLE prayer and discussion (including specifically with my priest).  I actually uphold it as perhaps the best denomination - in many ways, I regard it better than the one my current congregation belongs to.  Yes, I DO think that A FEW of the things it teaches AS DOGMA shouldn't be DOGMA (I tend to be more of the Eastern Orthodox perspective on some of these), and there are TWO dogmas (rather key and interrelated) that I disagree with, these dealing with ecclesiology and epistemology.  When I left your denomination, I told my priest that I agree with probably 95% of what I had been taught and probably disagreed with 1% of it.  He knew this to be true because we had just discussed my faith.  His response to my comment was this (I think this is verbatim), "Josiah - that's a whole lot better than most Catholics, heck - it's probably better than a lot of priests."  I don't know about the last part (I really only know well one priest - and he's very conservative) but I think the first part IS true - at least from my experience with the Catholics known to me.  



Quote
Sure we have our differences about doctrine, worship, etc, but we should never forget that which binds us, our combined belief in Jesus Christ as the Savior, God Himself come to earth.

The FAITH that unites us is powerful and complete...

The DOCTRINE that divides us is not always so significant and often not so relevant.  

The church remains one, holy, catholic, communion of saints.  We ARE full, unseparted, totally equally brothers and sisters in Christ.  Not always articulating all things identically - but then that's NEVER been the case.  I realize that Catholicism fundamentally disagrees with me on this, but there's nothing I (or you) can do about that.  We CAN share our views (even respectfully, maybe even here at this website?) but some dogmas are meant to divide and institutionalize, and they do.  


Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah





.
HERE is your exact post. You said that the "The church remains one, holy, catholic, communion of saints." Generally speaking, references to "The Church" are usually taken to mean the Roman Catholic Church, which has always been the largest.


Thank you for proving yourself wrong.   You saved me the time to do so (and it's always best when errors are self-discovered).

No, I did not post "The Catholic Church."  You're right, I didn't post "Catholic" or "Church."  You're right, it is a violation of English grammar to capitolize adjectives - and I didn't do so.  And as you know, proper nouns (as in names) are to be capitolized - and I didn't do that.  You CHANGED what you now realized I posted, turning an adjective into a proper noun, the legal name of a denomination.  You realize that now.

You yourself discovered your error.  Good. 





.

« Last Edit: Wed Oct 05, 2011 - 10:35:54 by Josiah »

Offline Swiss_Guard

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #55 on: Wed Oct 05, 2011 - 10:59:57 »
.


Over and over at this website, it seems to be a standard Catholic apologetic that a statement by a Protestant is WRONG because the Protestant is "anti-Catholic" (and thus no other reply is needed).

I've had that accusation leveled at me MANY times - as the "end all" rebuttal.  

I wish to address that....

THIS is my public and passionate position vis-a-vis the RCC:

"I embrace the RCC as a valid, sound and good denomination that I hold in great esteem.  I regard its ministers and ministries as all valid.  I regard all its Sacraments and the administration thereof to be valid.  I consider all believers in it to be my FULL and UNseparated and entirely equal and equally blessed brothers and sisters in Christ.  I pray daily for God's greatest blessings upon it, it's ministers and ministries and it's Holy Father."


Now, I CAN understand how my fellow Protestants would (and sometimes do) disagree with me, but my question is this:  Does that position make me categorically "ANTI-CATHOLIC?"  Is the accusation leveled at me over and over and over by the Catholics here just and accurate?   Does my "anti-Catholicism" mean that ergo I'm wrong and no further discussion is suggested, my extreme "anti-Catholicism" proves I'm wrong?   THAT is my question (especially to the many Catholics here).



Catholics:  Will you say as much positive about ME and MY church (the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod)?   IF not, then who is the more "anti?"



.



I will say that to me your statement is a positive one concerning the Catholic Church. As a Catholic I appreciate the sentiment.  As from the posts I"ve read of yours, I did not sense that you were/are especially "anti-catholic" per se,  but it seems that you are not willing to acknowledge the initial universality of the Chistian church, and at times you do seem to come across as less than enthused about us.


Thank you.  You seem to be unique among Catholics in this regard...

No.  Actually I DO embrace the universality of the Christian church - in the beginning, now and eternally.  Which is why, with most Protestants, I confess that the church is "one, holy, catholic, communion of saints."  

I'm actually VERY "enthused" about your denomination.  While I "left" such, I did so with NO 'hard feelings' - indeed, with considerable sadness and regret, and only after CONSIDERABLE prayer and discussion (including specifically with my priest).  I actually uphold it as perhaps the best denomination - in many ways, I regard it better than the one my current congregation belongs to.  Yes, I DO think that A FEW of the things it teaches AS DOGMA shouldn't be DOGMA (I tend to be more of the Eastern Orthodox perspective on some of these), and there are TWO dogmas (rather key and interrelated) that I disagree with, these dealing with ecclesiology and epistemology.  When I left your denomination, I told my priest that I agree with probably 95% of what I had been taught and probably disagreed with 1% of it.  He knew this to be true because we had just discussed my faith.  His response to my comment was this (I think this is verbatim), "Josiah - that's a whole lot better than most Catholics, heck - it's probably better than a lot of priests."  I don't know about the last part (I really only know well one priest - and he's very conservative) but I think the first part IS true - at least from my experience with the Catholics known to me.  



Quote
Sure we have our differences about doctrine, worship, etc, but we should never forget that which binds us, our combined belief in Jesus Christ as the Savior, God Himself come to earth.

The FAITH that unites us is powerful and complete...

The DOCTRINE that divides us is not always so significant and often not so relevant.  

The church remains one, holy, catholic, communion of saints.  We ARE full, unseparted, totally equally brothers and sisters in Christ.  Not always articulating all things identically - but then that's NEVER been the case.  I realize that Catholicism fundamentally disagrees with me on this, but there's nothing I (or you) can do about that.  We CAN share our views (even respectfully, maybe even here at this website?) but some dogmas are meant to divide and institutionalize, and they do.  


Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah





.
HERE is your exact post. You said that the "The church remains one, holy, catholic, communion of saints." Generally speaking, references to "The Church" are usually taken to mean the Roman Catholic Church, which has always been the largest.


Thank you for proving yourself wrong.   You saved me the time to do so (and it's always best when errors are self-discovered).

No, I did not post "The Catholic Church."  You're right, I didn't post "Catholic" or "Church."  You're right, it is a violation of English grammar to capitolize adjectives - and I didn't do so.  And as you know, proper nouns (as in names) are to be capitolized - and I didn't do that.  You CHANGED what you now realized I posted, turning an adjective into a proper noun, the legal name of a denomination.  You realize that now.

You yourself discovered your error.  Good. 





.


You can well understand how such a mistake came to be made. You refered to a "one, holy, catholic communion of Saints"; such a title can hardly be applied to the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church.

Offline Josiah

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #56 on: Wed Oct 05, 2011 - 11:38:14 »
.


Over and over at this website, it seems to be a standard Catholic apologetic that a statement by a Protestant is WRONG because the Protestant is "anti-Catholic" (and thus no other reply is needed).

I've had that accusation leveled at me MANY times - as the "end all" rebuttal.  

I wish to address that....

THIS is my public and passionate position vis-a-vis the RCC:

"I embrace the RCC as a valid, sound and good denomination that I hold in great esteem.  I regard its ministers and ministries as all valid.  I regard all its Sacraments and the administration thereof to be valid.  I consider all believers in it to be my FULL and UNseparated and entirely equal and equally blessed brothers and sisters in Christ.  I pray daily for God's greatest blessings upon it, it's ministers and ministries and it's Holy Father."


Now, I CAN understand how my fellow Protestants would (and sometimes do) disagree with me, but my question is this:  Does that position make me categorically "ANTI-CATHOLIC?"  Is the accusation leveled at me over and over and over by the Catholics here just and accurate?   Does my "anti-Catholicism" mean that ergo I'm wrong and no further discussion is suggested, my extreme "anti-Catholicism" proves I'm wrong?   THAT is my question (especially to the many Catholics here).



Catholics:  Will you say as much positive about ME and MY church (the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod)?   IF not, then who is the more "anti?"



.



I will say that to me your statement is a positive one concerning the Catholic Church. As a Catholic I appreciate the sentiment.  As from the posts I"ve read of yours, I did not sense that you were/are especially "anti-catholic" per se,  but it seems that you are not willing to acknowledge the initial universality of the Chistian church, and at times you do seem to come across as less than enthused about us.


Thank you.  You seem to be unique among Catholics in this regard...

No.  Actually I DO embrace the universality of the Christian church - in the beginning, now and eternally.  Which is why, with most Protestants, I confess that the church is "one, holy, catholic, communion of saints."  

I'm actually VERY "enthused" about your denomination.  While I "left" such, I did so with NO 'hard feelings' - indeed, with considerable sadness and regret, and only after CONSIDERABLE prayer and discussion (including specifically with my priest).  I actually uphold it as perhaps the best denomination - in many ways, I regard it better than the one my current congregation belongs to.  Yes, I DO think that A FEW of the things it teaches AS DOGMA shouldn't be DOGMA (I tend to be more of the Eastern Orthodox perspective on some of these), and there are TWO dogmas (rather key and interrelated) that I disagree with, these dealing with ecclesiology and epistemology.  When I left your denomination, I told my priest that I agree with probably 95% of what I had been taught and probably disagreed with 1% of it.  He knew this to be true because we had just discussed my faith.  His response to my comment was this (I think this is verbatim), "Josiah - that's a whole lot better than most Catholics, heck - it's probably better than a lot of priests."  I don't know about the last part (I really only know well one priest - and he's very conservative) but I think the first part IS true - at least from my experience with the Catholics known to me.  



Quote
Sure we have our differences about doctrine, worship, etc, but we should never forget that which binds us, our combined belief in Jesus Christ as the Savior, God Himself come to earth.

The FAITH that unites us is powerful and complete...

The DOCTRINE that divides us is not always so significant and often not so relevant.  

The church remains one, holy, catholic, communion of saints.  We ARE full, unseparted, totally equally brothers and sisters in Christ.  Not always articulating all things identically - but then that's NEVER been the case.  I realize that Catholicism fundamentally disagrees with me on this, but there's nothing I (or you) can do about that.  We CAN share our views (even respectfully, maybe even here at this website?) but some dogmas are meant to divide and institutionalize, and they do.  


Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah





.
HERE is your exact post. You said that the "The church remains one, holy, catholic, communion of saints." Generally speaking, references to "The Church" are usually taken to mean the Roman Catholic Church, which has always been the largest.


Thank you for proving yourself wrong.   You saved me the time to do so (and it's always best when errors are self-discovered).

No, I did not post "The Catholic Church."  You're right, I didn't post "Catholic" or "Church."  You're right, it is a violation of English grammar to capitolize adjectives - and I didn't do so.  And as you know, proper nouns (as in names) are to be capitolized - and I didn't do that.  You CHANGED what you now realized I posted, turning an adjective into a proper noun, the legal name of a denomination.  You realize that now.

You yourself discovered your error.  Good. 





.


You can well understand how such a mistake came to be made. You refered to a "one, holy, catholic communion of Saints"; such a title can hardly be applied to the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church.

Of course.  But then I posted "one, holy, catholic, communion of saints" not "The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod." 


Thank you.



.

Offline Swiss_Guard

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #57 on: Wed Oct 05, 2011 - 11:50:58 »
.


Over and over at this website, it seems to be a standard Catholic apologetic that a statement by a Protestant is WRONG because the Protestant is "anti-Catholic" (and thus no other reply is needed).

I've had that accusation leveled at me MANY times - as the "end all" rebuttal.  

I wish to address that....

THIS is my public and passionate position vis-a-vis the RCC:

"I embrace the RCC as a valid, sound and good denomination that I hold in great esteem.  I regard its ministers and ministries as all valid.  I regard all its Sacraments and the administration thereof to be valid.  I consider all believers in it to be my FULL and UNseparated and entirely equal and equally blessed brothers and sisters in Christ.  I pray daily for God's greatest blessings upon it, it's ministers and ministries and it's Holy Father."


Now, I CAN understand how my fellow Protestants would (and sometimes do) disagree with me, but my question is this:  Does that position make me categorically "ANTI-CATHOLIC?"  Is the accusation leveled at me over and over and over by the Catholics here just and accurate?   Does my "anti-Catholicism" mean that ergo I'm wrong and no further discussion is suggested, my extreme "anti-Catholicism" proves I'm wrong?   THAT is my question (especially to the many Catholics here).



Catholics:  Will you say as much positive about ME and MY church (the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod)?   IF not, then who is the more "anti?"



.



I will say that to me your statement is a positive one concerning the Catholic Church. As a Catholic I appreciate the sentiment.  As from the posts I"ve read of yours, I did not sense that you were/are especially "anti-catholic" per se,  but it seems that you are not willing to acknowledge the initial universality of the Chistian church, and at times you do seem to come across as less than enthused about us.


Thank you.  You seem to be unique among Catholics in this regard...

No.  Actually I DO embrace the universality of the Christian church - in the beginning, now and eternally.  Which is why, with most Protestants, I confess that the church is "one, holy, catholic, communion of saints."  

I'm actually VERY "enthused" about your denomination.  While I "left" such, I did so with NO 'hard feelings' - indeed, with considerable sadness and regret, and only after CONSIDERABLE prayer and discussion (including specifically with my priest).  I actually uphold it as perhaps the best denomination - in many ways, I regard it better than the one my current congregation belongs to.  Yes, I DO think that A FEW of the things it teaches AS DOGMA shouldn't be DOGMA (I tend to be more of the Eastern Orthodox perspective on some of these), and there are TWO dogmas (rather key and interrelated) that I disagree with, these dealing with ecclesiology and epistemology.  When I left your denomination, I told my priest that I agree with probably 95% of what I had been taught and probably disagreed with 1% of it.  He knew this to be true because we had just discussed my faith.  His response to my comment was this (I think this is verbatim), "Josiah - that's a whole lot better than most Catholics, heck - it's probably better than a lot of priests."  I don't know about the last part (I really only know well one priest - and he's very conservative) but I think the first part IS true - at least from my experience with the Catholics known to me.  



Quote
Sure we have our differences about doctrine, worship, etc, but we should never forget that which binds us, our combined belief in Jesus Christ as the Savior, God Himself come to earth.

The FAITH that unites us is powerful and complete...

The DOCTRINE that divides us is not always so significant and often not so relevant.  

The church remains one, holy, catholic, communion of saints.  We ARE full, unseparted, totally equally brothers and sisters in Christ.  Not always articulating all things identically - but then that's NEVER been the case.  I realize that Catholicism fundamentally disagrees with me on this, but there's nothing I (or you) can do about that.  We CAN share our views (even respectfully, maybe even here at this website?) but some dogmas are meant to divide and institutionalize, and they do.  


Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah





.
HERE is your exact post. You said that the "The church remains one, holy, catholic, communion of saints." Generally speaking, references to "The Church" are usually taken to mean the Roman Catholic Church, which has always been the largest.


Thank you for proving yourself wrong.   You saved me the time to do so (and it's always best when errors are self-discovered).

No, I did not post "The Catholic Church."  You're right, I didn't post "Catholic" or "Church."  You're right, it is a violation of English grammar to capitolize adjectives - and I didn't do so.  And as you know, proper nouns (as in names) are to be capitolized - and I didn't do that.  You CHANGED what you now realized I posted, turning an adjective into a proper noun, the legal name of a denomination.  You realize that now.

You yourself discovered your error.  Good. 





.


You can well understand how such a mistake came to be made. You refered to a "one, holy, catholic communion of Saints"; such a title can hardly be applied to the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church.

Of course.  But then I posted "one, holy, catholic, communion of saints" not "The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod." 


Thank you.



.
Yes, but  when you refer to a one, holy, catholic communion of saints, is it so unreasonable to assume that you're refering to the RCC and not Christians in general? I mean, there are literally tens of thousands of protestant mini-sects; I hardly consider them to be a single, Catholic Communion of Saints.

Offline mclees8

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #58 on: Wed Oct 05, 2011 - 22:14:25 »
Hello Swiss_Guard

You asked.......
"Faith without works is dead." (James 2:17-20) Care to explain away that particular quote, or has your Church removed that passage from their version of the Bible?

Offline free-in-Christ

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #59 on: Wed Oct 05, 2011 - 23:00:00 »
Hi  mclees8

Don’t worry about getting here late.

You said.......
“I know i  am comming int to threat a little late and this is on the first page, but I see no conflict between We are justified by faith and  faith without works is dead.

Offline mclees8

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #60 on: Thu Oct 06, 2011 - 01:21:20 »
Hi  mclees8

Don’t worry about getting here late.

You said.......
“I know i  am comming int to threat a little late and this is on the first page, but I see no conflict between We are justified by faith and  faith without works is dead.

Offline Ladonia

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #61 on: Thu Oct 06, 2011 - 07:47:18 »
Hi  mclees8

Don’t worry about getting here late.

You said.......
“I know i  am comming int to threat a little late and this is on the first page, but I see no conflict between We are justified by faith and  faith without works is dead.

Offline Josiah

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #62 on: Thu Oct 06, 2011 - 10:23:58 »
.


Over and over at this website, it seems to be a standard Catholic apologetic that a statement by a Protestant is WRONG because the Protestant is "anti-Catholic" (and thus no other reply is needed).

I've had that accusation leveled at me MANY times - as the "end all" rebuttal.  

I wish to address that....

THIS is my public and passionate position vis-a-vis the RCC:

"I embrace the RCC as a valid, sound and good denomination that I hold in great esteem.  I regard its ministers and ministries as all valid.  I regard all its Sacraments and the administration thereof to be valid.  I consider all believers in it to be my FULL and UNseparated and entirely equal and equally blessed brothers and sisters in Christ.  I pray daily for God's greatest blessings upon it, it's ministers and ministries and it's Holy Father."


Now, I CAN understand how my fellow Protestants would (and sometimes do) disagree with me, but my question is this:  Does that position make me categorically "ANTI-CATHOLIC?"  Is the accusation leveled at me over and over and over by the Catholics here just and accurate?   Does my "anti-Catholicism" mean that ergo I'm wrong and no further discussion is suggested, my extreme "anti-Catholicism" proves I'm wrong?   THAT is my question (especially to the many Catholics here).



Catholics:  Will you say as much positive about ME and MY church (the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod)?   IF not, then who is the more "anti?"



.



I will say that to me your statement is a positive one concerning the Catholic Church. As a Catholic I appreciate the sentiment.  As from the posts I"ve read of yours, I did not sense that you were/are especially "anti-catholic" per se,  but it seems that you are not willing to acknowledge the initial universality of the Chistian church, and at times you do seem to come across as less than enthused about us.


Thank you.  You seem to be unique among Catholics in this regard...

No.  Actually I DO embrace the universality of the Christian church - in the beginning, now and eternally.  Which is why, with most Protestants, I confess that the church is "one, holy, catholic, communion of saints."  

I'm actually VERY "enthused" about your denomination.  While I "left" such, I did so with NO 'hard feelings' - indeed, with considerable sadness and regret, and only after CONSIDERABLE prayer and discussion (including specifically with my priest).  I actually uphold it as perhaps the best denomination - in many ways, I regard it better than the one my current congregation belongs to.  Yes, I DO think that A FEW of the things it teaches AS DOGMA shouldn't be DOGMA (I tend to be more of the Eastern Orthodox perspective on some of these), and there are TWO dogmas (rather key and interrelated) that I disagree with, these dealing with ecclesiology and epistemology.  When I left your denomination, I told my priest that I agree with probably 95% of what I had been taught and probably disagreed with 1% of it.  He knew this to be true because we had just discussed my faith.  His response to my comment was this (I think this is verbatim), "Josiah - that's a whole lot better than most Catholics, heck - it's probably better than a lot of priests."  I don't know about the last part (I really only know well one priest - and he's very conservative) but I think the first part IS true - at least from my experience with the Catholics known to me.  



Quote
Sure we have our differences about doctrine, worship, etc, but we should never forget that which binds us, our combined belief in Jesus Christ as the Savior, God Himself come to earth.

The FAITH that unites us is powerful and complete...

The DOCTRINE that divides us is not always so significant and often not so relevant.  

The church remains one, holy, catholic, communion of saints.  We ARE full, unseparted, totally equally brothers and sisters in Christ.  Not always articulating all things identically - but then that's NEVER been the case.  I realize that Catholicism fundamentally disagrees with me on this, but there's nothing I (or you) can do about that.  We CAN share our views (even respectfully, maybe even here at this website?) but some dogmas are meant to divide and institutionalize, and they do.  


Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah





.
HERE is your exact post. You said that the "The church remains one, holy, catholic, communion of saints." Generally speaking, references to "The Church" are usually taken to mean the Roman Catholic Church, which has always been the largest.


Thank you for proving yourself wrong.   You saved me the time to do so (and it's always best when errors are self-discovered).

No, I did not post "The Catholic Church."  You're right, I didn't post "Catholic" or "Church."  You're right, it is a violation of English grammar to capitolize adjectives - and I didn't do so.  And as you know, proper nouns (as in names) are to be capitolized - and I didn't do that.  You CHANGED what you now realized I posted, turning an adjective into a proper noun, the legal name of a denomination.  You realize that now.

You yourself discovered your error.  Good. 





.


You can well understand how such a mistake came to be made. You refered to a "one, holy, catholic communion of Saints"; such a title can hardly be applied to the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church.

Of course.  But then I posted "one, holy, catholic, communion of saints" not "The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod." 


Thank you.



.
Yes, but  when you refer to a one, holy, catholic communion of saints, is it so unreasonable to assume that you're refering to the RCC and not Christians in general? I mean, there are literally tens of thousands of protestant mini-sects; I hardly consider them to be a single, Catholic Communion of Saints.


Understandable, perhaps, but yes - unreasonable.   In English, adjectives are not capitolized. Proper nouns and names are. 

No, I wasn't referring to ANY denomination or, obviously, I would have used their name and employing proper grammar, I would have capitolized such.

Yes, today, there are thousands of denominations, yours probably the largest.  But then I never spoke of ANY of them.   I don't think any existed for centuries.  I have nothing against them (in fact, I'm rather in favor of them) but that's a whole other subject. 

The issue here is whether my statement vis-a-vis your denomination is more or less "anti" than various Catholics view of mine.  Whether the "anti" label SO often used by Catholics here and elsewhere best applies to me or actually if the proverbial shoe actually belongs on the other foot.   What say you?  Will you say MORE positive about my denomination (The Lutheran Church - Missouri  Synod) than I did about yours?






.

Offline free-in-Christ

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #63 on: Thu Oct 06, 2011 - 10:33:26 »
Hello Ladonia

Your sarcasm is encouraging, because it demonstrats that God’s Word is doing it’s work in your heart.
That feeling, is called “conviction

Offline mclees8

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #64 on: Thu Oct 06, 2011 - 11:24:28 »
.


Over and over at this website, it seems to be a standard Catholic apologetic that a statement by a Protestant is WRONG because the Protestant is "anti-Catholic" (and thus no other reply is needed).

I've had that accusation leveled at me MANY times - as the "end all" rebuttal.  

I wish to address that....

THIS is my public and passionate position vis-a-vis the RCC:

"I embrace the RCC as a valid, sound and good denomination that I hold in great esteem.  I regard its ministers and ministries as all valid.  I regard all its Sacraments and the administration thereof to be valid.  I consider all believers in it to be my FULL and UNseparated and entirely equal and equally blessed brothers and sisters in Christ.  I pray daily for God's greatest blessings upon it, it's ministers and ministries and it's Holy Father."


Now, I CAN understand how my fellow Protestants would (and sometimes do) disagree with me, but my question is this:  Does that position make me categorically "ANTI-CATHOLIC?"  Is the accusation leveled at me over and over and over by the Catholics here just and accurate?   Does my "anti-Catholicism" mean that ergo I'm wrong and no further discussion is suggested, my extreme "anti-Catholicism" proves I'm wrong?   THAT is my question (especially to the many Catholics here).



Catholics:  Will you say as much positive about ME and MY church (the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod)?   IF not, then who is the more "anti?"



.



I will say that to me your statement is a positive one concerning the Catholic Church. As a Catholic I appreciate the sentiment.  As from the posts I"ve read of yours, I did not sense that you were/are especially "anti-catholic" per se,  but it seems that you are not willing to acknowledge the initial universality of the Chistian church, and at times you do seem to come across as less than enthused about us.


Thank you.  You seem to be unique among Catholics in this regard...

No.  Actually I DO embrace the universality of the Christian church - in the beginning, now and eternally.  Which is why, with most Protestants, I confess that the church is "one, holy, catholic, communion of saints."  

I'm actually VERY "enthused" about your denomination.  While I "left" such, I did so with NO 'hard feelings' - indeed, with considerable sadness and regret, and only after CONSIDERABLE prayer and discussion (including specifically with my priest).  I actually uphold it as perhaps the best denomination - in many ways, I regard it better than the one my current congregation belongs to.  Yes, I DO think that A FEW of the things it teaches AS DOGMA shouldn't be DOGMA (I tend to be more of the Eastern Orthodox perspective on some of these), and there are TWO dogmas (rather key and interrelated) that I disagree with, these dealing with ecclesiology and epistemology.  When I left your denomination, I told my priest that I agree with probably 95% of what I had been taught and probably disagreed with 1% of it.  He knew this to be true because we had just discussed my faith.  His response to my comment was this (I think this is verbatim), "Josiah - that's a whole lot better than most Catholics, heck - it's probably better than a lot of priests."  I don't know about the last part (I really only know well one priest - and he's very conservative) but I think the first part IS true - at least from my experience with the Catholics known to me.  



Quote
Sure we have our differences about doctrine, worship, etc, but we should never forget that which binds us, our combined belief in Jesus Christ as the Savior, God Himself come to earth.

The FAITH that unites us is powerful and complete...

The DOCTRINE that divides us is not always so significant and often not so relevant.  

The church remains one, holy, catholic, communion of saints.  We ARE full, unseparted, totally equally brothers and sisters in Christ.  Not always articulating all things identically - but then that's NEVER been the case.  I realize that Catholicism fundamentally disagrees with me on this, but there's nothing I (or you) can do about that.  We CAN share our views (even respectfully, maybe even here at this website?) but some dogmas are meant to divide and institutionalize, and they do.  


Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah





.
HERE is your exact post. You said that the "The church remains one, holy, catholic, communion of saints." Generally speaking, references to "The Church" are usually taken to mean the Roman Catholic Church, which has always been the largest.


Thank you for proving yourself wrong.   You saved me the time to do so (and it's always best when errors are self-discovered).

No, I did not post "The Catholic Church."  You're right, I didn't post "Catholic" or "Church."  You're right, it is a violation of English grammar to capitolize adjectives - and I didn't do so.  And as you know, proper nouns (as in names) are to be capitolized - and I didn't do that.  You CHANGED what you now realized I posted, turning an adjective into a proper noun, the legal name of a denomination.  You realize that now.

You yourself discovered your error.  Good. 





.


You can well understand how such a mistake came to be made. You refered to a "one, holy, catholic communion of Saints"; such a title can hardly be applied to the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church.

Of course.  But then I posted "one, holy, catholic, communion of saints" not "The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod." 


Thank you.



.
Yes, but  when you refer to a one, holy, catholic communion of saints, is it so unreasonable to assume that you're refering to the RCC and not Christians in general? I mean, there are literally tens of thousands of protestant mini-sects; I hardly consider them to be a single, Catholic Communion of Saints.

What we have here is a fancy language of words that really only brings confusion. Neither Christ or the apostles ever referred to the church as one holy catholic comunion of saints. In fact they did not use the term catholic. RC's are trying to connect themselves back to when The church was born At Pentecost when  their was no Papacy and certainly not any RCC. there was no Papal rule under the apsotles.  The Romen Church and its bishops were not seen as over any other Churches. Its nothing but a fabrication using a couple of letters that only eludes but never is concise and convincing to establish some papal conection back  to Peter.

Rc's go on about the reformation and a thousand denominations when the papacy was the first to reform the church and institutionalize it making it a religious political authrotiy. The term catholic does not and never will make lagitament what Christ never ordained.

Offline Ladonia

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #65 on: Thu Oct 06, 2011 - 12:26:19 »
Hello Ladonia

Your sarcasm is encouraging, because it demonstrats that God’s Word is doing it’s work in your heart.
That feeling, is called “conviction
« Last Edit: Thu Oct 06, 2011 - 12:34:16 by Ladonia »

Offline free-in-Christ

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #66 on: Thu Oct 06, 2011 - 13:25:30 »
Hello again Ladonia

Thank you for your cordial response.

I am happy to discuss this with you, not from the stand point of being “preachy

Offline Catholica

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #67 on: Thu Oct 06, 2011 - 14:10:29 »
You are right, there are hundreds of Christian sects, who see things differently from each other; But if you were to take the time and examine each and every one, you will discover that they can be lined up in order, “from the Bible

Offline free-in-Christ

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #68 on: Thu Oct 06, 2011 - 16:27:09 »
Hello Andre

You asked.......
“The Bible is not a simple thing to interpret.  Isn't it queer to you that there are so many men out there who authentically believe that they are teaching the truth of the Bible, yet believe so many different things?

Offline Ladonia

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Re: ANTI - Catholic? ANTI-Protestant? (Especially for Catholics to Read)
« Reply #69 on: Thu Oct 06, 2011 - 16:34:58 »
Hello again Ladonia

Thank you for your cordial response.

I am happy to discuss this with you, not from the stand point of being “preachy
« Last Edit: Thu Oct 06, 2011 - 16:46:54 by Ladonia »