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Author Topic: Article: "Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?"  (Read 1387 times)

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Offline epiphanius

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I've just come across another article that I think is worth sharing: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/albertlittle/why-catholicism-is-so-unattractive-to-evangelicals/.

When engaging in dialogue with non-Catholic Christians, it is important for Catholics to realize that they see Catholicism from a *very* different perspective than we do, and to respect that.  Most such discussions I see on this forum seem like a cat chasing its tail: Catholics telling Protestants they need to convert and become Catholic, with Protestants replying that it's the other way around, that the Catholics need to convert and become Protestant--round and round and going nowhere.  ::headscratch::

Albert Little, who is another Evangelical-turned-Catholic (like David Mills), emphasizes the fact that arguments are *not* going to work--what is needed is *example*.  People need to see Catholics who look like their lives have been changed by the Gospel, who look like they're living a new life in Christ, who *show* the openness and kindness of Christ to others.

Please take a look at this article and comment.  ::pray::



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Offline chosenone

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Re: Article: "Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?"
« Reply #1 on: Wed Sep 16, 2015 - 08:05:35 »
Its becoming a Christian and knowing Jesus that changes our lives, not going to a church.

The reason that I would never have anything to do with the RC church is because of the glaring and countless unbiblical errors they teach and believe, many that are totally contrary to what God says in the bible, and the longer I have been a believer the more I see, and the more I cant understand how those who go there cant see for themselves.  ::shrug::
« Last Edit: Wed Sep 16, 2015 - 08:11:59 by chosenone »

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Re: Article: "Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?"
« Reply #1 on: Wed Sep 16, 2015 - 08:05:35 »

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Article: "Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?"
« Reply #2 on: Wed Sep 16, 2015 - 08:08:06 »
I think people need to become Christians by accepting Christ's finished work on the cross, confessing Him as Lord and believing that God raised Him from the dead.
I do not think it matters that they are Protestant or Catholic.  No church is perfect and without error.  We do the best we can with our limited understanding.

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Re: Article: "Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?"
« Reply #3 on: Wed Sep 16, 2015 - 08:09:14 »
I think people need to become Christians by accepting Christ's finished work on the cross, confessing Him as Lord and believing that God raised Him from the dead.
I do not think it matters that they are Protestant or Catholic.  No church is perfect and without error.  We do the best we can with our limited understanding.

I do think it matters whether one is Catholic or not.  The doctrines espoused by Rome are false.

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Re: Article: "Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?"
« Reply #3 on: Wed Sep 16, 2015 - 08:09:14 »

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Article: "Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?"
« Reply #4 on: Wed Sep 16, 2015 - 08:12:13 »
I think people need to become Christians by accepting Christ's finished work on the cross, confessing Him as Lord and believing that God raised Him from the dead.
I do not think it matters that they are Protestant or Catholic.  No church is perfect and without error.  We do the best we can with our limited understanding.

I do think it matters whether one is Catholic or not.  The doctrines espoused by Rome are false.

Ok.   ::smile::

I know there are true believers within the Catholic Church.  I know there are those that are not...and have been greatly confused.
I know the very same dynamic can be found within the walls of Protestant churches as well.  ::smile::

I realize not everyone will agree with me.  Im ok with that.  ::tippinghat::

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Re: Article: "Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?"
« Reply #4 on: Wed Sep 16, 2015 - 08:12:13 »



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Re: Article: "Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?"
« Reply #5 on: Wed Sep 16, 2015 - 08:16:34 »
I think people need to become Christians by accepting Christ's finished work on the cross, confessing Him as Lord and believing that God raised Him from the dead.
I do not think it matters that they are Protestant or Catholic.  No church is perfect and without error.  We do the best we can with our limited understanding.

I do think it matters whether one is Catholic or not.  The doctrines espoused by Rome are false.

Ok.   ::smile::

I know there are true believers within the Catholic Church.  I know there are those that are not...and have been greatly confused.
I know the very same dynamic can be found within the walls of Protestant churches as well.  ::smile::

I realize not everyone will agree with me.  Im ok with that.  ::tippinghat::

Will you use that logic for J-Dubs, Mormons, etc?  At what point do you stand up and say that doctrines are false and could lead folks down the wrong path?

Offline mclees8

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Re: Article: "Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?"
« Reply #6 on: Wed Sep 16, 2015 - 08:19:20 »
I've just come across another article that I think is worth sharing: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/albertlittle/why-catholicism-is-so-unattractive-to-evangelicals/.

When engaging in dialogue with non-Catholic Christians, it is important for Catholics to realize that they see Catholicism from a *very* different perspective than we do, and to respect that.  Most such discussions I see on this forum seem like a cat chasing its tail: Catholics telling Protestants they need to convert and become Catholic, with Protestants replying that it's the other way around, that the Catholics need to convert and become Protestant--round and round and going nowhere.  ::headscratch::

Albert Little, who is another Evangelical-turned-Catholic (like David Mills), emphasizes the fact that arguments are *not* going to work--what is needed is *example*.  People need to see Catholics who look like their lives have been changed by the Gospel, who look like they're living a new life in Christ, who *show* the openness and kindness of Christ to others.

Please take a look at this article and comment.  ::pray::


God does not see Catholic or Protestant. Erase the names and you have a people who Follow Christ and are being transformed into his likeness.   Carnal Christians need outward shows of religion  but spirit filled believers need only live for Christ. No denomination saves us but our faith in Christ gives eternal life

Offline MeMyself

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Re: Article: "Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?"
« Reply #7 on: Wed Sep 16, 2015 - 08:27:12 »
I think people need to become Christians by accepting Christ's finished work on the cross, confessing Him as Lord and believing that God raised Him from the dead.
I do not think it matters that they are Protestant or Catholic.  No church is perfect and without error.  We do the best we can with our limited understanding.

I do think it matters whether one is Catholic or not.  The doctrines espoused by Rome are false.

Ok.   ::smile::

I know there are true believers within the Catholic Church.  I know there are those that are not...and have been greatly confused.
I know the very same dynamic can be found within the walls of Protestant churches as well.  ::smile::

I realize not everyone will agree with me.  Im ok with that.  ::tippinghat::

Will you use that logic for J-Dubs, Mormons, etc?  At what point do you stand up and say that doctrines are false and could lead folks down the wrong path?

A false doctrine that I will stand up and point fingers at is any that takes away from Christ alone being our Salvation.


Offline Ladonia

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Re: Article: "Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?"
« Reply #8 on: Wed Sep 16, 2015 - 17:32:55 »
I think people need to become Christians by accepting Christ's finished work on the cross, confessing Him as Lord and believing that God raised Him from the dead.
I do not think it matters that they are Protestant or Catholic.  No church is perfect and without error.  We do the best we can with our limited understanding.

I do think it matters whether one is Catholic or not.  The doctrines espoused by Rome are false.

Says who, you and your newfound interpretation of the Holy Scriptures?

Offline skeeter

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Re: Article: "Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?"
« Reply #9 on: Wed Sep 16, 2015 - 18:50:26 »
I do think it matters whether one is Catholic or not.  The doctrines espoused by Rome are false.
Says who, you and your newfound interpretation of the Holy Scriptures?
while it's new to Catholics, it isn't new.  It's just plain and simple - reading and understanding the scriptures as they are. 

Offline kensington

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Re: Article: "Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?"
« Reply #10 on: Wed Sep 16, 2015 - 21:14:17 »
I find the article glaringly ridiculous.  Who is the "We" constantly speaks of?  I don't recall him being appointed to speak for evangelicals.  I don't like being included in any We I did not volunteer to be in.  Yuck.  If you want to convert from what you were to what you are...  go for it.  But, do not presume you speak for anyone else from where you came. He certainly doesn't speak for me.

He says that Christians don't like religion.  That is not so.  Religion is not the problem, or the enemy.  Not at all...  the Bible even says... "Pure and undefiled religion is to care for widows and orphans"  So, I have no problem with religion.

To the point he made  about Jesus and the Pharisee's...  I'm sorry it took him becoming a Catholic to learn that, but I've known it since I got saved.  It wasn't the religion that offended Jesus, it was the NOT practicing what you preach. 

When I see or hear of an Evangelical who converted to the Catholic church... I am sad.. not because we lost one, or even that he found a religion.  But, that He took the easy way and was too lazy to pursue a relationship with Jesus one on one.  He chose to rather let the trappings and all of the religiousness be his relationship with Christ.  Which is what I think is wrong with the CC to begin with...  so many things to walk out your faith for you.. so many mediators, candles, rosaries, trappings.  You show up to the obligated mass and everything is done for you, and you are good to go till next mass.

It takes effort to walk a walk of faith in Jesus alone, a prayer life, a study life, walking by faith not sight, no works bring you anything more than knowing it is what Jesus would do.  You do it with Jesus alone...  It's exciting.  It's not for those who would shirk back or get lazy. 

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Article: "Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?"
« Reply #11 on: Wed Sep 16, 2015 - 21:17:42 »
I do think it matters whether one is Catholic or not.  The doctrines espoused by Rome are false.
Says who, you and your newfound interpretation of the Holy Scriptures?
while it's new to Catholics, it isn't new.  It's just plain and simple - reading and understanding the scriptures as they are.

And let's not forget the daddy of all false doctrines, the doctrine of Sola Scripctura, an idea that didn't come about for almost 1500 years!

Offline kensington

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Re: Article: "Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?"
« Reply #12 on: Wed Sep 16, 2015 - 23:25:14 »
Sola Scripture was good enough for Jesus.

"He is clothed in a robe dipped in Blood and His name is called, "The Word of God"  (Revelation 19:13)

Offline kensington

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Re: Article: "Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?"
« Reply #13 on: Thu Sep 17, 2015 - 01:14:08 »
I believe that when the Catholics that go to Heaven get there, they will be shocked to find that they could have been so much closer to Jesus without all the extra biblical trappings, the extra people and mediators they sought.  When they find, they could have known him all along, up close and face to face. 

I feel sorry about that. But, Once they get that scorched smell off of there robes...  (I Corinthians 3"12-15)  they will be fine. 

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Article: "Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?"
« Reply #14 on: Thu Sep 17, 2015 - 01:38:55 »
I believe that when the Catholics that go to Heaven get there, they will be shocked to find that they could have been so much closer to Jesus without all the extra biblical trappings, the extra people and mediators they sought.  When they find, they could have known him all along, up close and face to face. 

I feel sorry about that. But, Once they get that scorched smell off of there robes...  (I Corinthians 3"12-15)  they will be fine.

How much closer to Christ can a Christian become then by partaking of his Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity via Holy Communion? We come to know Him intimately in this way, not just spiritually but in a real physical sense.  It is sad that non - orthodox believers could have become closer to Jesus in this world in this way, but their misinterpretation and rejection of this fact that comes directly from the Holy Word and that has been taught to the faithful from day one leaves them missing this most important religious experience.

« Last Edit: Thu Sep 17, 2015 - 01:48:18 by Ladonia »

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Article: "Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?"
« Reply #15 on: Thu Sep 17, 2015 - 01:45:17 »
Sola Scripture was good enough for Jesus.

"He is clothed in a robe dipped in Blood and His name is called, "The Word of God"  (Revelation 19:13)

No it wasn't. HE is the Word incarnated into flesh and there was never a command to have a book put together and rely exclusively on it. There still would be salvation without all those collated writings. So come on, as a Christian you should know that.
« Last Edit: Thu Sep 17, 2015 - 01:49:48 by Ladonia »

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Article: "Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?"
« Reply #16 on: Thu Sep 17, 2015 - 02:25:41 »
To restate : "The Early Christian Church—which closely reflects the modern day Catholic Church—was roundly religious. The Didache, one of the oldest glimpses we have of how the Early Christians worshipped, is unapologetic in its religious approach to Christian worship".

First of all, this is a great question to pose. Now, the reason I believe there is a problem with Evangelicals concerning this issue is because they choose to ignore the early Church - it's formation,  leaders, worship practices, and the authority it received from God himself.

This kind of thinking came about because of a new proclamation by mere men in the later centuries with a "go it alone" approach that was accepted and is now preferred where the individual decides what scriptural truth really is. There is also the problem of the "us verses them" mentality and the hatred of the Papacy that has evolved over the many hundreds of years. 

And the end result? Confusion and multiplicity amongst the non - orthodox believers.
« Last Edit: Thu Sep 17, 2015 - 04:20:34 by Ladonia »

Offline skeeter

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Re: Article: "Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?"
« Reply #17 on: Thu Sep 17, 2015 - 02:34:29 »
Sola Scripture was good enough for Jesus.

"He is clothed in a robe dipped in Blood and His name is called, "The Word of God"  (Revelation 19:13)

No it wasn't. HE is the Word incarnated into flesh and there was never a command to have a book put together and rely exclusively on it. There still would be salvation without all those collated writings. So come on, as a Christian you should know that.
There's a whole bunch of verses about the written word... in the NT Jesus often asked questions like 'have you not read?' - then He'd quote from the OT.

here's just 2 verses - 1 from the NT and 1 from the OT -

Revelation 1

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place.  And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Chronicles 34:30

The king went up to the house of the Lord, with all the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem—the priests and the Levites, and all the people, great and small. And he read in their hearing all the words of the Book of the Covenant which had been found in the house of the Lord.

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Article: "Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?"
« Reply #18 on: Thu Sep 17, 2015 - 03:28:48 »
Sola Scripture was good enough for Jesus.

"He is clothed in a robe dipped in Blood and His name is called, "The Word of God"  (Revelation 19:13)

No it wasn't. HE is the Word incarnated into flesh and there was never a command to have a book put together and rely exclusively on it. There still would be salvation without all those collated writings. So come on, as a Christian you should know that.
There's a whole bunch of verses about the written word... in the NT Jesus often asked questions like 'have you not read?' - then He'd quote from the OT.

here's just 2 verses - 1 from the NT and 1 from the OT -

Revelation 1

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place.  And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Chronicles 34:30

The king went up to the house of the Lord, with all the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem—the priests and the Levites, and all the people, great and small. And he read in their hearing all the words of the Book of the Covenant which had been found in the house of the Lord.


When Jesus said: "Have you not read", he was talking about the Old Testament and the words of the Prophets. And with  the "Book  of the Covenant" he was likewise referring to the same.

As with Revelation, looks like another testimony to me, much like the Gospels are, and yes "written down for and to be preached to be heard" to the people of the day. So I shall agree with you partly on this one, even though other than through an Angel, there was still no specific command from Jesus in the flesh to do this.

As for the other New Testament Scriptures, the command was to preach the Gospel. The writing down of the Gospels came after the fact as a testimony, not because of some command.

Now the other books were what they say they are, letters to the various churches, and not collected in the form we now know them for a couple of hundred years. Even then, there was the concept of tradition that was also adhered to, especially when it came to how worship was conducted and who the leaders of the One Universal church were.

You know, we are probably arguing for nothing. I am sure you would agree that salvation would still exist if the NT wasn't written and everything passed on orally and I can agree that in the end it is a good thing that they were indeed written down. Now if we agree on that the next problem is proper interpretation, and I fear we shall remain at odds on that one.
« Last Edit: Thu Sep 17, 2015 - 03:31:09 by Ladonia »

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Re: Article: "Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?"
« Reply #19 on: Thu Sep 17, 2015 - 04:27:27 »
The Early Christian Church—which closely reflects the modern day Catholic Church—was roundly religious.
Not even close. The first century church as recorded in the Acts of the apostles, were far more than just "roundly religious"~They preached and evil spirit knew them and tremble as they witnessed first hand of their kingdom of darkness being turned upside down and shaking like a mighty earthquake.  The kingdom of God grew mightily throughout the Roman Empire. They were Spirit filled, with fire proceeding out of their mouth, devouring their enemies. They had power to shut heaven, and over all the power of the enemies, and the earth. Their power was so great, that even the passing of their shadow healed people. They had power to smite people with blindness and to silent the mouths of demon posses people. Catholicism is not even close to the church of the first century.....but, make no mistake about, your religion/church are in the scriptures, in such places as Matthew 15; Mark 7; and John chapter 8, there you will have many similarities, but not the ones that you desire to be linked with, I am sure. But, the connections are too plain to link them with any other religious system in our day, other than RCC/EOC.
Quote
Now, the reason I believe there is a problem with Evangelicals concerning this issue is because they choose to ignore the early Church - it's formation,  leaders, worship practices, and the authority it received from God himself.
Nice try, but the very opposite is so. "It's formation"~NT worship is a very simple form of worship, were true worshippers, worship the Father is spirit and in truth. It can be as little as two or three people gather together in the name of Jesus Christ.  The very elect, do not need fancy buildings, and all of the formal worship that goes with it and that appeals to the natural man in order to worship our God. Much more could be said, here but I believe you see what I am saying and where I could go with this. "It's leaders"~....men walking around in long dresses? The NT church has ONLY ONE Bishop in the true sense of that word, and he is not on earth, but at God's right hand of power, highly exalted above ALL.  In the NT church every child of God are part of a holy priesthood! There is ONLY one man that mediate between us and God, the man Christ Jesus. We can go directly to God through of Lord Jesus, thank you very much. The tier of authority in Catholicism is so against the word of God. In the NT church established by Jesus Christ, the elders (older men) are the leaders of the younger believers, yet ALL are subject one to another as Peter told us to be.  "Worship practices"~...Much unlike Catholicism which is nothing more than the Paganism and Judaism mixed together, the NT worship again is SO SIMPLE. It consist of coming together, to pray and teaching the word of God, and breaking bread in remembrance of our Lord's death till he comes again. Not much more than that! Other than loving and serving one another, in whatever capacity is needed.  "The authority it received from God himself"~The authority is to preach the word, be instant in season and out of season..allowing no man to tell us that they alone have that authority, unless, they can prove it with preaching the truth, if not, then we should continue preach the truth. Truth will establish who has the authority, not by just saying we have it, and you do not. That's too Pharisaical.
Quote
is now preferred where the individual decides what scriptural truth really is.
Again, nice try.  But, individuals make up the church of Jesus Christ, and whoever has truth will prevail; not those who relied on their system of religious beliefs of what others have told them is truth....wherever there is truth, that truth sets men free from those whose corrupt system makes loud claims of being true, yet is clearly against plain teachings of the word of God, which alone is the true source of all truth.
Quote
And the end result? Confusion and multiplicity amongst the non - orthodox believers.
Truth is a gift from heaven given freely to the very elect...... where it is freely given, those few are not confused, but where it is not given, there will always be confusion and every evil work.
Quote
and the hatred of the Papacy that has evolved over the many hundreds of years.
Allow me to say one more thing. It is not so much hatred of the Papacy that has evolved over 1800 to 1900 hundred years, but we have learned to be aware of those who have killed others just like us over those many years. Have you ever read:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxe's_Book_of_Martyrs? I know at least you have heard of it!
« Last Edit: Thu Sep 17, 2015 - 04:59:15 by RB »

Offline AVZ

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Re: Article: "Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?"
« Reply #20 on: Thu Sep 17, 2015 - 04:46:25 »
And the end result? Confusion and multiplicity amongst the non - orthodox believers.

May I remind you that the first large schism was between two orthodox teams? The Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Church.
I find it particularly strange that someone who is part of the original instigators accuses others of creating confusion and multiplicity.

Offline AVZ

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Re: Article: "Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?"
« Reply #21 on: Thu Sep 17, 2015 - 04:56:31 »
Sola Scripture was good enough for Jesus.

"He is clothed in a robe dipped in Blood and His name is called, "The Word of God"  (Revelation 19:13)

No it wasn't. HE is the Word incarnated into flesh and there was never a command to have a book put together and rely exclusively on it. There still would be salvation without all those collated writings. So come on, as a Christian you should know that.

That doesn't make sense at all.
If there was no scripture and people would only hear through oral tradition then Christianity could not exist.
To the rich man in hell who reaches out to Lazarus is simply said: "They have Moses and the Prophets".
Scriptures clearly makes a point for its own existence, and scripture exists for a reason.

You are making the wild assumption that oral tradition could exist throughout the ages.
But if there is no scripture to confirm the oral tradition, then how would anyone know which oral tradition is true? By guessing?

Offline Rella

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Re: Article: "Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?"
« Reply #22 on: Thu Sep 17, 2015 - 08:11:00 »



You know, we are probably arguing for nothing. I am sure you would agree that salvation would still exist if the NT wasn't written and everything passed on orally and I can agree that in the end it is a good thing that they were indeed written down. Now if we agree on that the next problem is proper interpretation, and I fear we shall remain at odds on that one.

"passed on orally".... God forbid.

There would be nothing resembling either Catholic nor Protestant beliefs in salvation if this had taken place because people cannot transmit a story from one to another then another and another in the same context as it was first told , much less to many generations over a 2000, or even 6000 year ( approx) time span.

Things get added or dropped in word of mouth, and one of the reasons it is very difficult to swallow the "teaching" that came about from a vision of a 12 year old who gain his insight by praying in a grove of trees in New York state . Visions, that according to him and thus the Latter Day Saints came into being.

Had all transpired, word of mouth, down through the ages, and Joseph Smith added his just think of the damage that would have come about with others adding their own insights along the way.

You have to have a written word. You have to read it. You have to pray for correct interpretation of those things you do not understand.... Though the Good Lord knows most of us on here disagree with
others on here interpretations....

BUT you cannot just leave it up to any church or man of the Cloth and trust he is always telling it accurately. After all.... interpretations are very subject to error....

I am Evangelical and I read the Holy Bible for myself. My Catholic family members do not even own a Bible as they listen to the priest in whichever church they find themselves in on any given Sunday.

They feel that just going and listening is what they need to do for their salvation.

I believe differently.

BTW, in closing.... It needs to be pointed out that not all Protestants are Evangelicals.
to what

Offline skeeter

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Re: Article: "Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?"
« Reply #23 on: Thu Sep 17, 2015 - 10:31:40 »
Sola Scripture was good enough for Jesus.

"He is clothed in a robe dipped in Blood and His name is called, "The Word of God"  (Revelation 19:13)

No it wasn't. HE is the Word incarnated into flesh and there was never a command to have a book put together and rely exclusively on it. There still would be salvation without all those collated writings. So come on, as a Christian you should know that.
There's a whole bunch of verses about the written word... in the NT Jesus often asked questions like 'have you not read?' - then He'd quote from the OT.

here's just 2 verses - 1 from the NT and 1 from the OT -

Revelation 1

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place.  And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Chronicles 34:30

The king went up to the house of the Lord, with all the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem—the priests and the Levites, and all the people, great and small. And he read in their hearing all the words of the Book of the Covenant which had been found in the house of the Lord.
When Jesus said: "Have you not read", he was talking about the Old Testament and the words of the Prophets. And with  the "Book  of the Covenant" he was likewise referring to the same.

As with Revelation, looks like another testimony to me, much like the Gospels are, and yes "written down for and to be preached to be heard" to the people of the day. So I shall agree with you partly on this one, even though other than through an Angel, there was still no specific command from Jesus in the flesh to do this.
It sounds like you don't consider the OT to be the word of God...

In Rev 1 I read -  "And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ"

I don't see any words limiting it to only the 'people of the day' but I do see the words 'written in it'.

All through out God's word angels appear to give someone a word from God.  Why do you think it must state it is from Jesus in the flesh?

Do you discount what an angel said to young Mary about a certain birth as not being from God?  Did God (or Jesus) in the flesh have to be there to give that message?

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Article: "Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?"
« Reply #24 on: Thu Sep 17, 2015 - 12:20:40 »



You know, we are probably arguing for nothing. I am sure you would agree that salvation would still exist if the NT wasn't written and everything passed on orally and I can agree that in the end it is a good thing that they were indeed written down. Now if we agree on that the next problem is proper interpretation, and I fear we shall remain at odds on that one.

"passed on orally".... God forbid.

There would be nothing resembling either Catholic nor Protestant beliefs in salvation if this had taken place because people cannot transmit a story from one to another then another and another in the same context as it was first told , much less to many generations over a 2000, or even 6000 year ( approx) time span.

Things get added or dropped in word of mouth, and one of the reasons it is very difficult to swallow the "teaching" that came about from a vision of a 12 year old who gain his insight by praying in a grove of trees in New York state . Visions, that according to him and thus the Latter Day Saints came into being.

Had all transpired, word of mouth, down through the ages, and Joseph Smith added his just think of the damage that would have come about with others adding their own insights along the way.

You have to have a written word. You have to read it. You have to pray for correct interpretation of those things you do not understand.... Though the Good Lord knows most of us on here disagree with
others on here interpretations....

BUT you cannot just leave it up to any church or man of the Cloth and trust he is always telling it accurately. After all.... interpretations are very subject to error....

I am Evangelical and I read the Holy Bible for myself. My Catholic family members do not even own a Bible as they listen to the priest in whichever church they find themselves in on any given Sunday.

They feel that just going and listening is what they need to do for their salvation.

I believe differently.

BTW, in closing.... It needs to be pointed out that not all Protestants are Evangelicals.
to what

And the interpretation of a single person IS NOT subject to error? Good grief! That is precisely why there is the Church with the correct interpretation, not arrived at by just by one man or woman, BUT BY THE WHOLE CHURCH COMBINED! Just look at history my friend, as even with the first great split of Christendom between the East and West  in 1054, the Eastern Church remained steadfast in continuing with the biblical interpretation that HAD STOOD FOR CENTURIES!

The written word is a beautiful thing, extremely helpful and desirable, and I personally read the Scriptures all the time, but salvation is not dependent on it. Salvation comes from the SACRIFICE ON CALAVARY, with the belief that Jesus is indeed the Savior, with attempting to live a holy and decent life, with faith and good works combined, the whole kit and caboodle.

Your relatives who are Catholics are doing just fine with going to church to worship and hearing God's word there. If they believe that Jesus is the Christ, the man who died for our sins, they are as saved as you and me. For thousands of years this is how the great majority of people in the world who were illiterate received the teachings of Christ, are you now somehow trying to say they did not have salvation?

In the end you can believe what you want, but the sure way to salvation is just plain old belief as we were taught with the action of living out that life in a good, decent, loving and holy way. Now that's my take on things.
« Last Edit: Thu Sep 17, 2015 - 12:41:09 by Ladonia »

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Article: "Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?"
« Reply #25 on: Thu Sep 17, 2015 - 12:34:03 »
Sola Scripture was good enough for Jesus.

"He is clothed in a robe dipped in Blood and His name is called, "The Word of God"  (Revelation 19:13)

No it wasn't. HE is the Word incarnated into flesh and there was never a command to have a book put together and rely exclusively on it. There still would be salvation without all those collated writings. So come on, as a Christian you should know that.
There's a whole bunch of verses about the written word... in the NT Jesus often asked questions like 'have you not read?' - then He'd quote from the OT.

here's just 2 verses - 1 from the NT and 1 from the OT -

Revelation 1

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place.  And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Chronicles 34:30

The king went up to the house of the Lord, with all the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem—the priests and the Levites, and all the people, great and small. And he read in their hearing all the words of the Book of the Covenant which had been found in the house of the Lord.
When Jesus said: "Have you not read", he was talking about the Old Testament and the words of the Prophets. And with  the "Book  of the Covenant" he was likewise referring to the same.

As with Revelation, looks like another testimony to me, much like the Gospels are, and yes "written down for and to be preached to be heard" to the people of the day. So I shall agree with you partly on this one, even though other than through an Angel, there was still no specific command from Jesus in the flesh to do this.
It sounds like you don't consider the OT to be the word of God...

In Rev 1 I read -  "And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ"

I don't see any words limiting it to only the 'people of the day' but I do see the words 'written in it'.

All through out God's word angels appear to give someone a word from God.  Why do you think it must state it is from Jesus in the flesh?

Do you discount what an angel said to young Mary about a certain birth as not being from God?  Did God (or Jesus) in the flesh have to be there to give that message?

Of course I believe the OT is the word of God, where did you ever get that idea that I didn't? Even though we can still use the Scriptures to help us in our day, they were literally written for those in that time period. The worst error though comes about with Revelation, when some people try to tie it to one particular church in this day in time, when it actually was talking about back then. As for believing in the messengers of God, the angels, yes I believe that, and that I actually agreed with you somewhat on the issue of that particular thing being written down. 

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Article: "Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?"
« Reply #26 on: Thu Sep 17, 2015 - 12:45:02 »
The Early Christian Church—which closely reflects the modern day Catholic Church—was roundly religious.
Not even close. The first century church as recorded in the Acts of the apostles, were far more than just "roundly religious"~They preached and evil spirit knew them and tremble as they witnessed first hand of their kingdom of darkness being turned upside down and shaking like a mighty earthquake.  The kingdom of God grew mightily throughout the Roman Empire. They were Spirit filled, with fire proceeding out of their mouth, devouring their enemies. They had power to shut heaven, and over all the power of the enemies, and the earth. Their power was so great, that even the passing of their shadow healed people. They had power to smite people with blindness and to silent the mouths of demon posses people. Catholicism is not even close to the church of the first century.....but, make no mistake about, your religion/church are in the scriptures, in such places as Matthew 15; Mark 7; and John chapter 8, there you will have many similarities, but not the ones that you desire to be linked with, I am sure. But, the connections are too plain to link them with any other religious system in our day, other than RCC/EOC.
Quote
Now, the reason I believe there is a problem with Evangelicals concerning this issue is because they choose to ignore the early Church - it's formation,  leaders, worship practices, and the authority it received from God himself.
Nice try, but the very opposite is so. "It's formation"~NT worship is a very simple form of worship, were true worshippers, worship the Father is spirit and in truth. It can be as little as two or three people gather together in the name of Jesus Christ.  The very elect, do not need fancy buildings, and all of the formal worship that goes with it and that appeals to the natural man in order to worship our God. Much more could be said, here but I believe you see what I am saying and where I could go with this. "It's leaders"~....men walking around in long dresses? The NT church has ONLY ONE Bishop in the true sense of that word, and he is not on earth, but at God's right hand of power, highly exalted above ALL.  In the NT church every child of God are part of a holy priesthood! There is ONLY one man that mediate between us and God, the man Christ Jesus. We can go directly to God through of Lord Jesus, thank you very much. The tier of authority in Catholicism is so against the word of God. In the NT church established by Jesus Christ, the elders (older men) are the leaders of the younger believers, yet ALL are subject one to another as Peter told us to be.  "Worship practices"~...Much unlike Catholicism which is nothing more than the Paganism and Judaism mixed together, the NT worship again is SO SIMPLE. It consist of coming together, to pray and teaching the word of God, and breaking bread in remembrance of our Lord's death till he comes again. Not much more than that! Other than loving and serving one another, in whatever capacity is needed.  "The authority it received from God himself"~The authority is to preach the word, be instant in season and out of season..allowing no man to tell us that they alone have that authority, unless, they can prove it with preaching the truth, if not, then we should continue preach the truth. Truth will establish who has the authority, not by just saying we have it, and you do not. That's too Pharisaical.
Quote
is now preferred where the individual decides what scriptural truth really is.
Again, nice try.  But, individuals make up the church of Jesus Christ, and whoever has truth will prevail; not those who relied on their system of religious beliefs of what others have told them is truth....wherever there is truth, that truth sets men free from those whose corrupt system makes loud claims of being true, yet is clearly against plain teachings of the word of God, which alone is the true source of all truth.
Quote
And the end result? Confusion and multiplicity amongst the non - orthodox believers.
Truth is a gift from heaven given freely to the very elect...... where it is freely given, those few are not confused, but where it is not given, there will always be confusion and every evil work.
Quote
and the hatred of the Papacy that has evolved over the many hundreds of years.
Allow me to say one more thing. It is not so much hatred of the Papacy that has evolved over 1800 to 1900 hundred years, but we have learned to be aware of those who have killed others just like us over those many years. Have you ever read:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxe's_Book_of_Martyrs? I know at least you have heard of it!

And a nice try to you for all those words, but I'm not buying what you are selling. And let's not start down the road of who killed who, shall we? The non-orthodox believers certainly killed their share of Catholics in the most horrible and tortuous ways and praised God while they were doing it.

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Article: "Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?"
« Reply #27 on: Thu Sep 17, 2015 - 12:51:28 »
And the end result? Confusion and multiplicity amongst the non - orthodox believers.

May I remind you that the first large schism was between two orthodox teams? The Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Church.

Of course, with them leaving us over some differences, but not over the basic scriptural interpretations. They still remained true to believing in the Sacramental way of Christianity.

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Article: "Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?"
« Reply #28 on: Thu Sep 17, 2015 - 12:59:25 »
Sola Scripture was good enough for Jesus.

"He is clothed in a robe dipped in Blood and His name is called, "The Word of God"  (Revelation 19:13)

No it wasn't. HE is the Word incarnated into flesh and there was never a command to have a book put together and rely exclusively on it. There still would be salvation without all those collated writings. So come on, as a Christian you should know that.

That doesn't make sense at all.
If there was no scripture and people would only hear through oral tradition then Christianity could not exist.
To the rich man in hell who reaches out to Lazarus is simply said: "They have Moses and the Prophets".
Scriptures clearly makes a point for its own existence, and scripture exists for a reason.

You are making the wild assumption that oral tradition could exist throughout the ages.
But if there is no scripture to confirm the oral tradition, then how would anyone know which oral tradition is true? By guessing?

When something as important as faith is concerned, the truth will always continue unchanged even if passed on orally. That is how we believers in the later years came to know where exactly all the important Christian biblical sites in the Holy Land were. Their exact locations were never forgotten even though their locations were passed down orally.

Now as far as the written word goes, even though we have it we still have a multiplicity of interpretations, so that didn't change anything. Those who rejected what had been taught for centuries suddenly said " I have the words right here, so now I can make up my own mind about what it says". We got more confusion when people strayed for what was originally taught, not less.

Offline mclees8

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Re: Article: "Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?"
« Reply #29 on: Thu Sep 17, 2015 - 14:01:50 »
Sola Scripture was good enough for Jesus.

"He is clothed in a robe dipped in Blood and His name is called, "The Word of God"  (Revelation 19:13)

No it wasn't. HE is the Word incarnated into flesh and there was never a command to have a book put together and rely exclusively on it. There still would be salvation without all those collated writings. So come on, as a Christian you should know that.

That doesn't make sense at all.
If there was no scripture and people would only hear through oral tradition then Christianity could not exist.
To the rich man in hell who reaches out to Lazarus is simply said: "They have Moses and the Prophets".
Scriptures clearly makes a point for its own existence, and scripture exists for a reason.

You are making the wild assumption that oral tradition could exist throughout the ages.
But if there is no scripture to confirm the oral tradition, then how would anyone know which oral tradition is true? By guessing?

When something as important as faith is concerned, the truth will always continue unchanged even if passed on orally. That is how we believers in the later years came to know where exactly all the important Christian biblical sites in the Holy Land were. Their exact locations were never forgotten even though their locations were passed down orally.

Now as far as the written word goes, even though we have it we still have a multiplicity of interpretations, so that didn't change anything. Those who rejected what had been taught for centuries suddenly said " I have the words right here, so now I can make up my own mind about what it says". We got more confusion when people strayed for what was originally taught, not less.

2 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. . Heb 4:12

No matter how much you would want to minimize Gods word it will stand forever and indictment for the good the bad, right or wrong interpretation, or abuse of it like it or not for each and every one of us.

Offline Rella

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Re: Article: "Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?"
« Reply #30 on: Thu Sep 17, 2015 - 16:30:05 »

And the interpretation of a single person IS NOT subject to error? Good grief! That is precisely why there is the Church with the correct interpretation, not arrived at by just by one man or woman, BUT BY THE WHOLE CHURCH COMBINED!

The written word is a beautiful thing, extremely helpful and desirable, and I personally read the Scriptures all the time, but salvation is not dependent on it. Salvation comes from the SACRIFICE ON CALAVARY, with the belief that Jesus is indeed the Savior, with attempting to live a holy and decent life, with faith and good works combined, the whole kit and caboodle.

Your relatives who are Catholics are doing just fine with going to church to worship and hearing God's word there. If they believe that Jesus is the Christ, the man who died for our sins, they are as saved as you and me. For thousands of years this is how the great majority of people in the world who were illiterate received the teachings of Christ, are you now somehow trying to say they did not have salvation?

In the end you can believe what you want, but the sure way to salvation is just plain old belief as we were taught with the action of living out that life in a good, decent, loving and holy way. Now that's my take on things.

"And the interpretation of a single person IS NOT subject to error?

I never said that nor did I suggest it.


" Good grief! That is precisely why there is the Church with the correct interpretation, not arrived at by just by one man or woman, BUT BY THE WHOLE CHURCH COMBINED! "

How do you define the WHOLE church combined? Is it from the original church of teachers and members who were following and learning shortly after the crucifixion or are you including those teachers and members who attend today.... or do you find some point
in a specific year or perhaps event to say it was completed.... ( Which we know was never the fact as every church has ongoing
changes and dictates from new popes and basic doctrin that is not only Catholic but Protestant as well.

By the number of posts next to your name you are certainly not a newby on Grace Centered. We ALL disagree from time to time on basics as well as interpretation of the written word.


EXAMPLE: You want to continue to refer to Mary as a virgin and claim that she never had sex with Joseph.

From The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.... ( note... not just one person)

Their commentary on Mathew 1 :25

He had no relations with her until she bore a son,* and he named him Jesus.

* [1:25] Until she bore a son: the evangelist is concerned to emphasize that Joseph was not responsible for the conception of Jesus. The Greek word translated “until” does not imply normal marital conduct after Jesus’ birth,
nor does it exclude it.

And King James says it like this...

Matthew 1:25

25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

Both the Catholic translation and the King James are clear.... Joseph did not know ( have sex) Mary until Jesus was born.... no matter what spin the Bishops put on it, they never said it never happened.

King James goes on to say Mary gave birth to her "firstborn"   IF there was a first born... there also was a second


So this is a major difference between the two.

And proof that "man" or "men" ( including women in those terms) are not necessarily infallible
in a translation therefore a church cannot be counted as totally trustworthy.


"The written word is a beautiful thing, extremely helpful and desirable, and I personally read the Scriptures all the time, but salvation is not dependent on it. Salvation comes from the SACRIFICE ON CALAVARY, with the belief that Jesus is indeed the Savior, with attempting to live a holy and decent life, with faith and good works combined, the whole kit and caboodle."

"Salvation comes from the SACRIFICE ON CALAVARY, with the belief that Jesus is indeed the Savior, with attempting to live a holy and decent life"

AMEN and praise God for this.... Not going to argue works here, that has been done enough on here.


Your relatives who are Catholics are doing just fine with going to church to worship and hearing God's word there. If they believe that Jesus is the Christ, the man who died for our sins, they are as saved as you and me. For thousands of years this is how the great majority of people in the world who were illiterate received the teachings of Christ, are you now somehow trying to say they did not have salvation?

" If they believe that Jesus is the Christ, the man who died for our sins, they are as saved as you and me."


Ummmmm.... They do not believe this as fact. They are not taught this as fact. The only fact is that because I do believe this they say I am in a cult.  OH... they go to mass, partake of Holy Communion, Light Candles, Pray to Saints, have masses for the dead, pray the rosary, but lack that Jesus died for our sins....  all the while sitting in church listening to sermon after sermon against aortion, which is important... don't get me wrong... but the reason for the faith gets lost.  Are they saved.... Who knows as they wont listen to the cult
believer and they wont read a Bible for themselves.


For thousands of years this is how the great majority of people in the world who were illiterate received the teachings of Christ, are you now somehow trying to say they did not have salvation?

"are you now somehow trying to say they did not have salvation?"

No, I did not say that... in fact I believe if they believe in their hearts they are saved because some man preached something to them and they followed but did not have the benefit to read or study for themselves but in faith did as they were told they are saved.
If they followed wrongly, and it was out of their control, then it will be the church to answer for that... not the person.


In the end you can believe what you want, but the sure way to salvation is just plain old belief as we were taught with the action of living out that life in a good, decent, loving and holy way.

In the end you can believe what you want, but the sure way to salvation is just plain old belief as we were taught with the action of living out that life in a good, decent, loving and holy way.

NO... The way to salvation is through the belief in Jesus.  All else follows after that





k-pappy

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Re: Article: "Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?"
« Reply #31 on: Fri Sep 18, 2015 - 06:52:13 »
And the interpretation of a single person IS NOT subject to error? Good grief! That is precisely why there is the Church with the correct interpretation, not arrived at by just by one man or woman, BUT BY THE WHOLE CHURCH COMBINED! Just look at history my friend, as even with the first great split of Christendom between the East and West  in 1054, the Eastern Church remained steadfast in continuing with the biblical interpretation that HAD STOOD FOR CENTURIES!

That is not correct.  The interpretation of the Bible as espoused by the RCC is a series of interpretations by single men.  One man interprets something, the church adopts it.  One man interprets something else, the church adopts it...and so on and so forth down through the centuries.

Yes, the RCC had councils.  Other denominations had councils as well.  I'm sorry, but your argument is not correct.  I know you will disagree, but the argument is simply not true.

Offline epiphanius

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Re: Article: "Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?"
« Reply #32 on: Fri Sep 18, 2015 - 15:22:35 »
I find the article glaringly ridiculous.  Who is the "We" constantly speaks of?  I don't recall him being appointed to speak for evangelicals.  I don't like being included in any We I did not volunteer to be in.  Yuck.

Good point.  I presumed he was speaking for himself and his own experience as an Evangelical, along with the people he knew and still knows who are Evangelical.  (He does mention that the practice of calling "religion" a bad thing goes all the way back to Zwingli, so he's not saying that Evangelicals invented the idea.)


He says that Christians don't like religion.  That is not so.  Religion is not the problem, or the enemy.  Not at all...  the Bible even says... "Pure and undefiled religion is to care for widows and orphans"  So, I have no problem with religion.

Good to hear it.  ::nodding::


It wasn't the religion that offended Jesus, it was the NOT practicing what you preach. 

Which is *exactly* what Albert Little is saying in the article:
Quote
Catholics we knew lacked a personal, genuine relationship with Christ. They weren’t, as Evangelical writers would put it, “disciples.”

They didn’t strive to model their lives after Christ—His compassion, His integrity, His generosity—and that made them not Christians.

And, actually, that seems pretty fair because Jesus did condemn the Pharisees for their empty religion.

And these two go hand-in-hand: A practice of [empty] religion replaces a relationship with Christ. Strip away the [empty] religion and focus on Christ.

It’s a fair argument and, in my opinion, our response shouldn’t be strike back, it should be to agree.

This is the whole point of the article--it really wasn't meant to be contentious.


When I see or hear of an Evangelical who converted to the Catholic church... I am sad.. not because we lost one, or even that he found a religion.  But, that He took the easy way and was too lazy to pursue a relationship with Jesus one on one.  He chose to rather let the trappings and all of the religiousness be his relationship with Christ.

Albert also says:
Quote
Because if we Catholics truly lived out the life that we’re meant to, the life that our faith dictates, we would live the most Christ-centered, beautiful life imaginable.  Truly.  But, sadly, we don’t.  And, sadly, the picture that I had of Catholics, as an Evangelical, is largely accurate.

I am not satisfied with this, and none of us should be.

In other words, he's not trying to make Evangelicals look bad, he's encouraging Catholics to embrace their faith more fully.

Offline new creature

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Re: Article: "Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?"
« Reply #33 on: Wed Sep 23, 2015 - 19:41:43 »
I believe that when the Catholics that go to Heaven get there, they will be shocked to find that they could have been so much closer to Jesus without all the extra biblical trappings, the extra people and mediators they sought.  When they find, they could have known him all along, up close and face to face. 

I feel sorry about that. But, Once they get that scorched smell off of there robes...  (I Corinthians 3"12-15)  they will be fine.

How much closer to Christ can a Christian become then by partaking of his Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity via Holy Communion?

Much. More than anything by having His spirit indwelling within you at all times, imo.

Just ask for His Holy Spirit and be born again, and you will no longer have any need for a pastor or priest to bring you closer to God.
« Last Edit: Wed Sep 23, 2015 - 19:54:22 by new creature »

Offline Ladonia

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Re: Article: "Why Is Catholicism So Unattractive to Evangelicals?"
« Reply #34 on: Wed Sep 23, 2015 - 21:03:02 »
I believe that when the Catholics that go to Heaven get there, they will be shocked to find that they could have been so much closer to Jesus without all the extra biblical trappings, the extra people and mediators they sought.  When they find, they could have known him all along, up close and face to face. 

I feel sorry about that. But, Once they get that scorched smell off of there robes...  (I Corinthians 3"12-15)  they will be fine.

How much closer to Christ can a Christian become then by partaking of his Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity via Holy Communion?

Much. More than anything by having His spirit indwelling within you at all times, imo.

Just ask for His Holy Spirit and be born again, and you will no longer have any need for a pastor or priest to bring you closer to God.

No not quite. But I can understand it from your perspective because you reject the "Real Presence" of Our Lord in the Eucharist.


And sorry to burst your bubble, but even though I am obstinate at times, the Holy Spirit is constantly working within me - helping to lead me into being a better follower of Christ.  It is also clear that we definitely look at the roles of priest or pastor differently and since I don't follow a "go it alone" Christian way, each has their place in fellowship and Christian teaching.

 

     
anything