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Offline LightHammer

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Ask A Catholic III
« on: October 04, 2011, 11:51:30 AM »
While I was going through the older threads in the Catholic Forum, I found two threads entitled like this one. I really enjoyed the entire flow of the thread and thought maybe doing another one like it we could at ease the animus that's been going on.

Ok so here we go.

I'm LightHammer and one of my passions is for there to be better understanding between Christians in regards to our diverse beliefs. In the spirit of understanding I am opening this thread as a place where any and all Christians can ask questions about Catholicism.

Please note that this is not a debating thread and as such please refrain from trying to spark any. You have the entire Catholic Forum and the recently created Debate Forum to do that. Basically if you don't want to understand Catholicism don't get involved.

Also please note that I am a simple laymen in my parish. While I believe I am well versed in my faith I know that I don't have all the answers. So I really want the others to get involved.


So God bless you and feel free to ask whatever questions come to mind.
"For they needs must seek some support,  since they have fallen from the foundation of the Apostles and have no settled mind of their own, and if they can find none, then they malign the fathers. But no one will believe them any more even if they make efforts to libel them, for their heresy is condemned on all hands." St. Athanasius of Alexandria

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Ask A Catholic III
« on: October 04, 2011, 11:51:30 AM »

Offline Snargles

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Re: Ask A Catholic III
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2011, 07:54:32 PM »
OK, you are on. I am looking for an answer, I won't argue with you.
I read a little bit of the latest thread on contraception but it quickly got argumentative. I take it that from the Catholic POV sex is only for purposes of procreation. Where does this leave sex with a post-menopausal woman? We have all read stories about 80 year old women being surprised by a pregnancy but that is a one in a million thing. In most cases old age sex is for fun not making babies so is it allowed?



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Re: Ask A Catholic III
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2011, 07:54:32 PM »

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Ask A Catholic III
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2011, 06:29:09 AM »
OK, you are on. I am looking for an answer, I won't argue with you.
I read a little bit of the latest thread on contraception but it quickly got argumentative. I take it that from the Catholic POV sex is only for purposes of procreation. Where does this leave sex with a post-menopausal woman? We have all read stories about 80 year old women being surprised by a pregnancy but that is a one in a million thing. In most cases old age sex is for fun not making babies so is it allowed?




Hey Snargles,

Sorry it took me so long to respond. This computer on base only allows me on the site at certain times.

Thanks for your question. The primary issue with your question is that it is based on a faulty premise. The Magesterium of Catholic Church does not teach that sex is only for procreation and thus your question is rendered moot.

Sex is believed as the intimate kiss of true love between man and woman. A sacred act that God established for us as a means to give ourselves to our spouses completely. Sex for pleasure is nothing to be prohibited among two who are matrimonially united.

The issue we have is when people deviate from the design of true love's kiss. We take issue when people compromise the natural purpose of sex, i.e. premarital sex, homsexual sex, contraception and the especially abominal act of abortion.

In the following I have a quote that may explain this in a way I can not.

CCC 2352  ......."The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose." For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."

So as you see sex is totally taught and revered by the Church as the expreesion of true love for those who are married. Just as much as it is considered wrong to seperate the natural flow of procreation from sex it would be just as wrong to separate pleasure and teach that sex is only for procreation.

This does not mean that every time a married couple has sex they have to do so with the inetnt to get pregnant. They simply have to give themselves to one another totally.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 10:30:27 AM by LightHammer »
"For they needs must seek some support,  since they have fallen from the foundation of the Apostles and have no settled mind of their own, and if they can find none, then they malign the fathers. But no one will believe them any more even if they make efforts to libel them, for their heresy is condemned on all hands." St. Athanasius of Alexandria

Offline Snargles

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Re: Ask A Catholic III
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2011, 10:33:44 AM »
Thank you. I have relied too much on non-Catholic's explanation of Catholic beliefs.

We can have civil discources even though we each think the other side has perverted the word of God.

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Re: Ask A Catholic III
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2011, 10:33:44 AM »

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Ask A Catholic III
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2011, 10:37:40 AM »
Thank you. I have relied too much on non-Catholic's explanation of Catholic beliefs.

We can have civil discources even though we each think the other side has perverted the word of God.


I am glad I could help.

God Bless You.
"For they needs must seek some support,  since they have fallen from the foundation of the Apostles and have no settled mind of their own, and if they can find none, then they malign the fathers. But no one will believe them any more even if they make efforts to libel them, for their heresy is condemned on all hands." St. Athanasius of Alexandria

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Re: Ask A Catholic III
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2011, 10:37:40 AM »



Offline mllevaleur

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Re: Ask A Catholic III
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2011, 08:06:56 AM »
Aww, what nostalgia! I enjoyed the Ask A Catholic threads way back when.  ::nodding::

Hi there Snargles!

That's a great question, one way to understand the Catholic teaching is to understand that we believe the marital act must be "ordered towards" procreation. That doesn't mean procreation needs to happen every time, or that people need to be *trying* to procreate every time, or that people who can't procreate can't have relations. It just means that nothing artificial should be happening to frustrate the completion of the marital act, there should be no barriers between spouses, we should be giving all of ourselves to each other and holding nothing back purposely, including our fertility. Another way to say that is we believe relations should happen in such a way that if the spouses were fertile, procreation would be possible. That being said, God naturally built in more fertile and less fertile (and infertile) times, both monthly, and in the course of our lives over time. It's fine to work with what God gave us, but we don't believe it's ok to artificially thwart the blessing of fertility. Thus, when natural infertility such as menopause arises, it's still all a part of God's plans, and marital relations are still an important part of bonding between spouses. :-)

So, as LightHammer rightly explained, sex is not "just" for making babies to Catholics as many seem to incorrectly understand, a common phrase in the Catholic NFP world is that sex is for "Babies and Bonding." ;-)
-Stephanie

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"The Truth doesn't change according to our ability to stomach it." - Flannery O'Connor

Offline DaveW

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Re: Ask A Catholic III
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2011, 11:49:39 AM »
So how is that teaching squared with the ancient church fathers who said that marital sex was so abhorant to God that the Holy Spirit had to leave the house until they were done?

Sorry but I do not have a reference right here at hand. I think it was Jerome who said that.

Online Catholica

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Re: Ask A Catholic III
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2011, 12:10:30 PM »
So how is that teaching squared with the ancient church fathers who said that marital sex was so abhorant to God that the Holy Spirit had to leave the house until they were done?

Sorry but I do not have a reference right here at hand. I think it was Jerome who said that.

Hi DaveW,

I don't have the original text at hand either, but I have looked it up before, and the phrase is taken out of context.  It has never been Church teaching.

Even Church fathers were fallible.  The Catholic Church has, since it was able, always defined doctrine using the writings Church fathers and Scripture, and has done so with all of the bishops present in union with the pope.  So even Church fathers err, and some even went into apostasy, but we believe that the Church's teaching office does not err, because of promises from Jesus to guide His Church into all truth.

I can find the quote for you if you would like and do an analysis.

God Bless,

Andre
John 13
34 I give you a new commandment: love one another. As I have loved you, so you also should love one another.
35 This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

2 John
6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Online Catholica

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Re: Ask A Catholic III
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2011, 12:23:28 PM »
It appears that it was not an ancient Church father but rather a rather prominent Medieval theologian Peter Lombard.  I am still looking for the quote, but this might be of interest, from the Catechism:

III. THE LOVE OF HUSBAND AND WIFE

2360 Sexuality is ordered to the conjugal love of man and woman. In marriage the physical intimacy of the spouses becomes a sign and pledge of spiritual communion. Marriage bonds between baptized persons are sanctified by the sacrament.

2361 "Sexuality, by means of which man and woman give themselves to one another through the acts which are proper and exclusive to spouses, is not something simply biological, but concerns the innermost being of the human person as such. It is realized in a truly human way only if it is an integral part of the love by which a man and woman commit themselves totally to one another until death."143

    Tobias got out of bed and said to Sarah, "Sister, get up, and let us pray and implore our Lord that he grant us mercy and safety." So she got up, and they began to pray and implore that they might be kept safe. Tobias began by saying, "Blessed are you, O God of our fathers. . . . You made Adam, and for him you made his wife Eve as a helper and support. From the two of them the race of mankind has sprung. You said, 'It is not good that the man should be alone; let us make a helper for him like himself.' I now am taking this kinswoman of mine, not because of lust, but with sincerity. Grant that she and I may find mercy and that we may grow old together." And they both said, "Amen, Amen." Then they went to sleep for the night.144

2362 "The acts in marriage by which the intimate and chaste union of the spouses takes place are noble and honorable; the truly human performance of these acts fosters the self-giving they signify and enriches the spouses in joy and gratitude."145 Sexuality is a source of joy and pleasure:

    The Creator himself . . . established that in the [generative] function, spouses should experience pleasure and enjoyment of body and spirit. Therefore, the spouses do nothing evil in seeking this pleasure and enjoyment. They accept what the Creator has intended for them. At the same time, spouses should know how to keep themselves within the limits of just moderation.146

2363 The spouses' union achieves the twofold end of marriage: the good of the spouses themselves and the transmission of life. These two meanings or values of marriage cannot be separated without altering the couple's spiritual life and compromising the goods of marriage and the future of the family.

The conjugal love of man and woman thus stands under the twofold obligation of fidelity and fecundity.

143 FC 11.
144 Tob 8:4-9.
145 GS 49 § 2.
146 Pius XII, Discourse, October 29, 1951.
John 13
34 I give you a new commandment: love one another. As I have loved you, so you also should love one another.
35 This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

2 John
6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Offline DaveW

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Re: Ask A Catholic III
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2011, 12:48:56 PM »
Yes I would like that. 

I have read some awefully negative things about marriage from Jerome, Origen, Augustine, and others. 

Things like:

"Marriage is sin"
"Marriage is prostitution"
"Marriage is fornication"
"The only reason God allows sex is to create more virgins for the Church."

And this one from St. Ambrose:  "Marriage was a crime against God."

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Ask A Catholic III
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2011, 01:02:13 PM »
Yes I would like that. 

I have read some awefully negative things about marriage from Jerome, Origen, Augustine, and others. 

Things like:

"Marriage is sin"
"Marriage is prostitution"
"Marriage is fornication"
"The only reason God allows sex is to create more virgins for the Church."

And this one from St. Ambrose:  "Marriage was a crime against God."

I am familiar with the works of St. Ambrose but I'm familiar with this quote.

Could you cite its source document?
"For they needs must seek some support,  since they have fallen from the foundation of the Apostles and have no settled mind of their own, and if they can find none, then they malign the fathers. But no one will believe them any more even if they make efforts to libel them, for their heresy is condemned on all hands." St. Athanasius of Alexandria

Offline Paulus

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Re: Ask A Catholic III
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2011, 04:29:03 AM »
Greetings , Little Brother .

I put the words of the quote "Marriage is a crime against God" on Google and came up with a website called "Early Church Against Marriage" . I clicked on to it and found a very , very long article . I didn't go to the trouble of reading it all , but it did contain the quotes mentioned on this thread . I found the article somewhat weird .

In it there is a Vatican coin of 1963 named FIDES . The article says of it , " Interestingly the goddess Juno made an appearance on a Vatican coin in 1963 (notice the torch) during the period of the alleged Freemason Roncalli's Pontificate , the curiously named John XXIII , architect of the disastrous Vatican II . "

Looking at the coin it is clear that the lady is a symbol of Faith , holding a cross in one hand and a chalice surmounted by a host in the other . The host has lines representing streams of light shining from it . It is no torch .

As for the alleged Freemason Roncalli , to me he is Good Pope John , Blessed John XXIII . And what is curious about the then Cardinal Roncalli choosing John as his papal name ?

As for the Second Vatican Council being "disastrous" , well we've all heard that before and we know from where.

Any non-RC  such as DaveW reading this sort of stuff is not going to be left with a good image of the Catholic Church .

                                                  Bless you  LH .
                                                                       
Ut Unum Sint .

Offline DaveW

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Re: Ask A Catholic III
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2011, 10:39:39 AM »
Some years ago I read thru a bunch of Early Church fathers material dealing with marriage and sex.

I was surprised at how negative much of it was from certain of the fathers (not all of them).  I know enough of the current RCC to know it is nowhere near that bad now, but some of the points I disagree with I can see as coming from the writings I read.

IMO most old line protestant groups are not much better but for different reasons. Their reason is Victorianism.

Unfortunately I do not have that compilation any more and it would take a LOT of time I do not now have to restore it.

Offline KNOWLEDGE BOMB

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Re: Ask A Catholic III
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2011, 01:21:31 PM »
I have a question

when I type in Isis with baby Horus which is part of the
Egyptian trinity I also see that Mary with baby Jesus is the exact
same thing?   It looks as if your church only changed the names
which can't be done, what it is it is. 

Also I noticed that the popes mitre hat is something else
your church took from another religion and that is the priest
of atargatis, which btw is where the sci-fi show stargate Atlantis
took it's evil connected name from

atargatis was the fish religion because the fish survived the FLood
of noahs time and the devil wanted to make something of that fact.

I won't argue with you but I ask direct questions for which I seek not an answer
as to why but your answer as a catholic about something Im sure you
did not know.
It's just as important to KNOW what's NOT in the Bible
as it is to KNOW what IS

Offline LightHammer

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Re: Ask A Catholic III
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2011, 01:48:58 PM »
Hey KNOWLEDGEBOMB,

Welcome to Grace Centered Forums. I have a feeling we'll be seeing a lot of you around these parts.

Quote
when I type in Isis with baby Horus which is part of the
Egyptian trinity I also see that Mary with baby Jesus is the exact
same thing?   It looks as if your church only changed the names
which can't be done, what it is it is.

I fail to see the question here? As you know there are thousands of different pieces of Mother Mary and baby Jesus. Many of them are autonomous from one another. They have several different artists who made them and artistic styles they were patterned after.

With this in mind it is impossible for me to isolate which particular piece you are attempting to connect to the Egyptian Isis and Horus.

Quote
Also I noticed that the popes mitre hat is something else
your church took from another religion and that is the priest
of atargatis, which btw is where the sci-fi show stargate Atlantis
took it's evil connected name from

atargatis was the fish religion because the fish survived the FLood
of noahs time and the devil wanted to make something of that fact.

Again I fail to see where you have asked a question. You seem to have studied paganism or at least the correlations between the symbolism of my Church and it. When I was 15, my mentor was an SDA. As such I was familiarized with paganism solely to further understand how the Catholic Church had taken in some of its tenets.

However that was quickly shown to be folly. Nearly every pagan religion has a flood story, so any expression the Catholic Church makes in regards to the flood story can be twisted as borrowed from some pagan tradition. Every pagan religion uses animals in its allegory in some form or another, so any use the Catholic Church makes for the fish symbol can be accused of as borrowed from paganism.

In regards to fish symbol I can show you how the Catholic Church used it in from the 1st century to the late 4th century but it won't do any good if you hold it as pagan.

« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 02:01:56 PM by LightHammer »
"For they needs must seek some support,  since they have fallen from the foundation of the Apostles and have no settled mind of their own, and if they can find none, then they malign the fathers. But no one will believe them any more even if they make efforts to libel them, for their heresy is condemned on all hands." St. Athanasius of Alexandria