Ask-A-Catholic

[ravenlorre]

I am interested in starting a friendly discussion about the similarities and differences between Protestant doctrine and Catholic doctrine; I also hope to clear up any misconceptions about the Catholic Church, along the way.  My purpose here is not to talk anyone into becoming Catholic, to attack anyone's faith, or to engage in any conversation that isn't educational in nature.  For the record, I believe any person who has a personal relationship with Christ and is in agreement with the Nicene Creed is a Christian - so please do not ask me if you have to be Catholic to be Christian.

It is also important to let you know that I reconciled to the Roman Catholic Church about 6 years ago after about 15 years as a born again Christian in a Protestant tradition.

Finally, I am hardly the last word on Catholicism, if you are Catholic please feel free to answer any questions, enter into dialog, or add to any of my comments.  In the end, the Catholic Catechism is the best way to find accurate information on all Catholic teachings.

blessings

[CSloan]

Why did you start attending a catholic church after being a born again for 9 years?

[Barabbas]

My question is this... What is the definition of a Roman Catholic? 

Looking over the faith I understand the arguments against sola scriptura which are foundational to Protestant belief.  I know that oral tradition and the idea of apostolic succession are also foundational.   Looking over Roman Catholicism what seems critical to me the final authority of the Pope in all doctrinal matters.

What I don't understand is many Roman Catholics themselves don't necessarily submit to the authority of the church or the Pope... such as the use of birth control by many of the practitioners.  Are these folks "Protestant" in some way?  Are they still considered within the RCC fold, or are they looked at much the same way as Protestant groups are looked at?

My biggest problem with RCC is historical... I just think the empirical evidence against the Holy Spirit leading the church in some special way is too great.

[marc]

I am assuming that Catholicism is considered to be Christian doctrine based on rule #6.  As we all know, the Nicene Creed was written and approved by a Catholic Council.  If I am wrong about this point moderators please let me know your reasoning before locking my thread - thank you :)

Just a quick note to let you know that yes, Catholicism is considered a Christian doctrine by the rules of this board.  I'd actually like to state this emphatically, not because I have no disagreements with Catholicism, but because this has been called into question recently.  Catholicism is to be treated as a Christian belief rather than as a non-Christian belief. 

If any other moderators would like to elaborate or modify this, please do.

Thank you.

[Harold]

In the RCC is the Word the final authority?

If not why?

FTL

[ravenlorre]

Why did you start attending a catholic church after being a born again for 9 years?

Well, I met a Catholic women in my graduate program and I asked her why she was Catholic instead of Christian.  She was open to my questions and very nicely informed me that Catholics are Christians and then gave me a few books to read.  I devoured the books - I was thrilled to see that I had been misinformed about the Catholic Church.  I continued my own research into the Catechism / Church Fathers / Church history / disagreements between Catholics and Protestants and after about 1 year and a half I signed up for RCIA, which is a 6-8 month program which prepares adults to join the RC.  I remember my wife was initially horrified - she was raised in an independent fundamentalist church and felt she was already compromising by attending a Presbyterian Church - it took her a bit more time, but after reading Scott Hahn and a lot of church history she decided to join, as well.  I also have to say that a professor at my Presbyterian college really prepared me for my reconciliation with the RC.

[ravenlorre]

My question is this... What is the definition of a Roman Catholic? 

Looking over the faith I understand the arguments against sola scriptura which are foundational to Protestant belief.  I know that oral tradition and the idea of apostolic succession are also foundational.   Looking over Roman Catholicism what seems critical to me the final authority of the Pope in all doctrinal matters.

What I don't understand is many Roman Catholics themselves don't necessarily submit to the authority of the church or the Pope... such as the use of birth control by many of the practitioners.  Are these folks "Protestant" in some way?  Are they still considered within the RCC fold, or are they looked at much the same way as Protestant groups are looked at?

My biggest problem with RCC is historical... I just think the empirical evidence against the Holy Spirit leading the church in some special way is too great.

My definition of a Roman Catholic is a person who is engaged in a saving, sanctifying relationship with Christ; believes in the Real Presence in the Eucharist and accepts the Bible and Tradition as equal authority in their lives.

I agree with you that the institution of the Papacy is certainly an area of disagreement between Roman Catholics and Protestants; not to mention, people in the Orthodox faith.

I see the office of Pope as a necessary safeguard of Tradition.  Yes, there have been many nasty Popes throughout history, as well as some great ones, but the office of the Pope is what is truly important.  In my experience without the office of the Pope people with good intentions tend to drift toward other authorities - Orthodox churches believe God ordained government to be authorities over them; Protestants claim that scripture interprets scripture and the Holy Spirit should be our guide - which I believe is a noble idea, but ends up opening the door for private interpretation of the scriptures, denominations, radical individualism and ultimately, relativism - of course I am taking my line of thought to the extreme in order to illustrate my point.  I have come to believe that God instituted the office of the Pope (Matt 16:18) and sent His Holy Spirit to save guard His church.

It is interesting to me that history repelled you from the RC; while it actually attracted me to it.  I agree that the Crusades and the Inquisition and the bad Popes are all sinful parts of RC history, however I look to the Creeds, the Canonization of scripture, the Doctrine of the Trinity, and the Doctrine of the Incarnation as evidence of the leading of the Holy Spirit.

blessings

[ravenlorre]

I am assuming that Catholicism is considered to be Christian doctrine based on rule #6.  As we all know, the Nicene Creed was written and approved by a Catholic Council.  If I am wrong about this point moderators please let me know your reasoning before locking my thread - thank you :)

Just a quick note to let you know that yes, Catholicism is considered a Christian doctrine by the rules of this board.  I'd actually like to state this emphatically, not because I have no disagreements with Catholicism, but because this has been called into question recently.  Catholicism is to be treated as a Christian belief rather than as a non-Christian belief. 

If any other moderators would like to elaborate or modify this, please do.

Thank you.

Thanks Marc, I appreciate your feedback.

blessings

[Barabbas]

My question is this... What is the definition of a Roman Catholic? 

Looking over the faith I understand the arguments against sola scriptura which are foundational to Protestant belief.  I know that oral tradition and the idea of apostolic succession are also foundational.   Looking over Roman Catholicism what seems critical to me the final authority of the Pope in all doctrinal matters.

What I don't understand is many Roman Catholics themselves don't necessarily submit to the authority of the church or the Pope... such as the use of birth control by many of the practitioners.  Are these folks "Protestant" in some way?  Are they still considered within the RCC fold, or are they looked at much the same way as Protestant groups are looked at?

My biggest problem with RCC is historical... I just think the empirical evidence against the Holy Spirit leading the church in some special way is too great.

My definition of a Roman Catholic is a person who is engaged in a saving, sanctifying relationship with Christ; believes in the Real Presence in the Eucharist and accepts the Bible and Tradition as equal authority in their lives.

I agree with you that the institution of the Papacy is certainly an area of disagreement between Roman Catholics and Protestants; not to mention, people in the Orthodox faith.

I see the office of Pope as a necessary safeguard of Tradition.  Yes, there have been many nasty Popes throughout history, as well as some great ones, but the office of the Pope is what is truly important.  In my experience without the office of the Pope people with good intentions tend to drift toward other authorities - Orthodox churches believe God ordained government to be authorities over them; Protestants claim that scripture interprets scripture and the Holy Spirit should be our guide - which I believe is a noble idea, but ends up opening the door for private interpretation of the scriptures, denominations, radical individualism and ultimately, relativism - of course I am taking my line of thought to the extreme in order to illustrate my point.  I have come to believe that God instituted the office of the Pope (Matt 16:18) and sent His Holy Spirit to save guard His church.

It is interesting to me that history repelled you from the RC; while it actually attracted me to it.  I agree that the Crusades and the Inquisition and the bad Popes are all sinful parts of RC history, however I look to the Creeds, the Canonization of scripture, the Doctrine of the Trinity, and the Doctrine of the Incarnation as evidence of the leading of the Holy Spirit.

blessings

Gotcha.  I understand how history might have attracted you.  I find it much more attractive to think that the church has always existed instead of had to be "Restored" in some way.  I just happen to interpret the church in much broader terms than just the RCC - but I do respect the tradition.  You won't get any traditional Catholic bashing from me. 

[ravenlorre]

In the RCC is the Word the final authority?

If not why?

FTL

Hello Harold,

The Scriptures and Tradition (Catholic dogma) are considered to be equally authoritative by the RC.  Briefly, the Catholic Church recognizes that many ideas that lie outside scripture, but do not contradict scripture are inspired by God.  A good example is the canonization of the scriptures; the Church, inspired by the Holy Spirit determined the order and the content of the Bible.  Another example is the Doctrine of the Trinity - yes the Bible supports the Doctrine of the Trinity, but the Church, inspired by the Holy Spirit, developed the doctrine.

Finally, Luther's concept of Sola Scriptura is not support by the Bible.  On the contrary, Jesus tells us that the Church is authoritative:

Matthew 18:17
If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Paul also tells us that the Church has authority:

 Acts 20:28
Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

1 Corinthians 6:4
Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church!

Colossians 1:28
We proclaim him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ.

The one verse that Protestants rely on to support the teaching of sola scriptura is Tim. 3:16-17

6All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Unfortunately, the fact that scripture is God-breathed and useful doesn't mean that it is exclusively so.  Here is an awkward analogy - Safeway is useful for suppling groceries, but their are other groceries stories that are just as useful.

blessings

[ConnieLard]

I have a question.  I recently attended a contemplative retreat based on the writings of Thomas Merton and would like to find a group of people in my area of like mind.  Do most Catholic churches have groups similar to this?  Do you think most would be open to a non-Catholic joining a study group or prayer group?  I guess what I am asking is what is the best way to approach this?

[DCR]

ravenlorre,

During your investigation of the Roman Catholic Church, how much did you explore Orthodoxy, if at all?  Did you ever consider their side of the schism?

And, do you believe that the entire church was always under the single authority of the Papacy even during the original apostolic times of the first century?

Thanks for being open and willing to share your thoughts.  

[HRoberson]

I have a question.  I recently attended a contemplative retreat based on the writings of Thomas Merton and would like to find a group of people in my area of like mind.  Do most Catholic churches have groups similar to this?  Do you think most would be open to a non-Catholic joining a study group or prayer group?  I guess what I am asking is what is the best way to approach this?

You didn't ask me, but it is my impression that Merton groups do not particularly care whether you're Catholic or not. The thrust of various groups can change in that some are more contemplative, and others focus on social action. Then there are those in between.

While most folks that know about Merton are likely Catholics, not all Catholics like Merton (there was some hubbub recently about him being removed from an official tome that described Catholics to model).

Anyway, Merton groups are normally Merton groups, even if they are predominantly Catholic.

[ravenlorre]

I have a question.  I recently attended a contemplative retreat based on the writings of Thomas Merton and would like to find a group of people in my area of like mind.  Do most Catholic churches have groups similar to this?  Do you think most would be open to a non-Catholic joining a study group or prayer group?  I guess what I am asking is what is the best way to approach this?

Hi Connie,

I love Thomas Merton!  Unfortunately, you may have to dig a little to find groups that meet together in the Catholic Church - Protestants are the best at organizing small groups in my opinion - Catholics need to catch up.

The good news is that groups do exist - I am an oblate at a monastery in Oregon, for example.  I would recommend reading "A Cloistered Walk" by Kathleen Norris is you haven't already - she is a Presbyterian who decided to become an oblate (without becoming Catholic) and she does a nice job of explaining the process and what exactly an oblate is.  If you are interested I can give you more information, as well.  In general, monasteries are a great place to go to for personal retreats and spiritual renewal - I can give you more information about how to find one in your area if you would like.

Also, I am apart of a dynamic group in my church (you do not have to be catholic to join) that is focused on merging social service and faith - it is called Just Faith - you can look it up on the web if you are interested. 

Finally, have you heard about Lectio Divina?  It is a method of prayer that focuses around the scriptures - many Catholic Churches has groups that meet together to pray through specific scripture.

blessings

[ravenlorre]

ravenlorre,

During your investigation of the Roman Catholic Church, how much did you explore Orthodoxy, if at all?  Did you ever consider their side of the schism?

And, do you believe that the entire church was always under the single authority of the Papacy even during the original apostolic times of the first century?

Thanks for being open and willing to share your thoughts. 

I really only investigated the Orthodox Tradition briefly after I joined the RC.  I am sure I have much to learn about their faith and doctrines.  Although, I have read a lot of writings from early Orthodox Church Fathers like St. Basil and St Gregory - I really admire their tradition of monasticism and contemplative prayer.

I believe that the Orthodox Churches and the Anglican / Episcopalian Churches are so close to Roman Catholicism that I only distinguish between the traditions if it might offend someone if I didn't - I hope that makes sense.

I believe in the supremacy of Peter - that Jesus set him apart from the other apostles as the first Pope.  I acknowledge that the office of the Pope has developed over the past 2000 years in order to lead a world wide church, but it was there in the beginning as well.

blessings