Bible alone?

[Tantor]

Orthodox split WITH The Vatican and the Pope, not the other way around.

So one person who is equal among brothers has the right to excommunication the larger group and retain authority?... I don't think so.. it was the RCC that initiated and forced the split... read your history.

Anglican Church has nothing to do with Catholicism or The Vatican.
A Monarch cannot be the Head of the Church. 
It more resembles Luther  and Protest-antism that Catholicism.
Their Mass is invalid, Sacraments invalid and are marrying Homosexual couples.

But it isn't protestant.. which is what you asserted.

You should learn to admit when you are wrong.

Lastly, there are no sacraments in Christianity anymore.. they are just things used to oppress the masses and keep the money flowing into the church.

I have communion in my house, with my christian friends, family and neighbors after a meal.. I set aside some bread and wine and we do exactly what Jesus commanded us to do... remember him.  And guess what, it costs nobody a dime and no one is expected to donate me any money (and I would refuse anyhow).

Show me where in the scriptures is says that priests are to administer the 'eucharist'... not a single one of the Apostles did...

[TradCath]

Tantor what you posted is Blaspheme.
It doesnt deserve a response.  You as a layperson, cannot distribute the Eucharist or have a mock Sacrifice on Calvary.


1 Cor. 11:27-29 - Paul says that eating or drinking in an unworthy manner is the equivalent of profaning (literally, murdering) the body and blood of the Lord.
If this is just a symbol, we cannot be guilty of actually profaning (murdering) it. We cannot murder a symbol. Either Paul, the divinely inspired apostle of God, is imposing an unjust penalty, or the Eucharist is the actual body and blood of Christ.


John 6:52
Then the Judeans began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
Jesus said to them,
"I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
'For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever."
He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.'


Verse 19
Christ tells Peter "And I will give thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Loosed and Bind. Got that?


Acts 5:29
' the high priest questioned the apostles before the Sanhedrin and when they responded Scripture records the response as being, "But Peter and the Apostles said in reply, 'We must obey God rather than men.".
The fact that the verse says "Peter and the apostles " implies that Peter led the group's response in at least that situation.
In Matthew 10:2 Scripture starts off by saying "The names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon called Peter, and his brother Andrew; "
.The next few verses go on to list the others, but the important point to note here is how it starts off saying "FIRST, Simon called Peter" ranking him as first among the group of apostles

John 21:15 Jesus asked Peter "Do you love me more than these?" And after Peter told him yes, Jesus commanded him to "Feed my lambs."3 Times!


Matthew Chapter 16. In verse 15-17 Christ asks "
"But who do you say that I am? "Simon Peter said in reply, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God." Jesus said to him in reply,
"Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father." Here in verse 17 Christ has just told Peter, along with the audience of the apostles, that God the Father directly reveals things to Peter that He does not reveal to other men

[Tantor]

It doesnt deserve a response.  You as a layperson, cannot distribute the Eucharist or have a mock Sacrifice on Calvary.

What sacrifice?.. Was Christ's sacrifice insufficient?.. absolutely NOT.

If you are making any sacrifices in the name of Jesus.. it is blasphemy.

You also have a hard time distinguishing between the symbolic and the real.

ALL CHRISTIANS ARE A ROYAL PRIESTHOOD...

It really bothers me how inverted both Catholic and Protestant traditions are in respect to leadership from the example that Jesus set forth for us to follow.

Hebrews 10
Christ's Sacrifice Once for All
 1The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

 5Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
   "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
      but a body you prepared for me;
 6with burnt offerings and sin offerings
      you were not pleased.
 7Then I said, 'Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
      I have come to do your will, O God.' "[a] 8First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). 9Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

 11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

 15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
 16"This is the covenant I will make with them
      after that time, says the Lord.
   I will put my laws in their hearts,
      and I will write them on their minds." 17Then he adds:
   "Their sins and lawless acts
      I will remember no more."[c] 18And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. 19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

 26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"[d] and again, "The Lord will judge his people."[e] 31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 32Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you stood your ground in a great contest in the face of suffering. 33Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions.

 35So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. 36You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37For in just a very little while,
   "He who is coming will come and will not delay.
    38But my righteous one[f] will live by faith.
   And if he shrinks back,
      I will not be pleased with him."[g] 39But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.

To make any type of sacrifice is to blaspheme Jesus' work on the cross.

[TradCath]

I just cited it for you, the text. I will try again.
Christs' Blood was the Sacrifice. Which you Blaspheme.


John 6:52
"I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

'For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever."
He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.'



Pot, kettle, black
You mock Christs' Words now too?
He said it was Real. Real Food, Real Drink.  A sacrifice.

[Tantor]

I just cited it for you, the text. I will try again.
Christs' Blood was the Sacrifice. Which you Blaspheme.


John 6:52
"I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

'For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever."
He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.'



Pot, kettle, black

That in no way negates what I have said... the wine represents the blood and the bread represents his body.

I don't see anything in that verse where some sort of unbiblical priest has to recite some hocus pocus to turn the blood and bread into something else.

But then again the proof is not in what we do, but God imparting his Holy Spirit to his chosen.

Christs work was complete and finished for all time.. we do not need to crucify him again during every mass to obtain more of his blood and body.

[TradCath]

The Words Christ used at the Last Supper before his Crucifixion were not 'Hocus Pocus'

I feel sorry and ashamed for you..

[Tantor]

The Words Christ used at the Last Supper before his Crucifixion were not 'Hocus Pocus'

I feel sorry and ashamed for you..

I feel sorry that you have exchanged your faith in God for the mindless rituals of mankind.

And that you feel Christ's death on the cross is on on-going affair instead of being once and for all.

But then again, you have shown your ignorance of history and the word.. so I will pray that the Holy Spirit will open your mind to becoming a true follower of Christ for a change.

[TradCath]

Of Course its a Ritual.  Why Do you Mock Christ and his Word?

Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever."
'Do This In Memory Of Me' -Christ...is a ritual that we celebrate every Sunday, Our Sabbath
The day of HIS Resurrection



And All Church Members are expected to Tithe. Youre just cheap.

In Church Days, before a Jewish Owned Federal Reserve, we got a just wage and were not taxed on it. Now we pay 33% to interest on debt that can never be repaid, I digress.

The Tithe goes to help the Poor and less fortunate, Mission in 3rd world nations, Fund schools, Universities, Monasteries, Upkeep of Property.


It was The Church that:
Created your Bible
BUILT Western Civilization, Spread The Gospels & Christianity worldwide.
Developed the Free-Market Economy, Invented of University System, Birthplaced Modern Science, Founded for Western Rule of Law, Patron of Master Artists & Musicians, Renaissance works of Modern Glorious periods.

The Church Still Preserves Humanity- teachings of sanctity of life.
Francisco de Vitoria is recognized by the UN as a Father of International law. Catholic Church set up the Hospital system in Medieval Europe.

And Fought Off Muslim Saracens.

Enjoy your House Bread and wine

[normfromga]

Banished-

I never mentioned Kennedy's funeral, and really didn't wish to single him out as an adulterer; John Kerry, or, to remain bipartisan, Rudy Giuliani, could easily fill the bill.

I was criticising a sanctioned practise that dissolves marriages in order to allow philanderers to remain in the Church's good graces.

Where do the Protestants fit into Western Civilization?

Beats me...

Perhaps you should ask a Protestant...

[Tantor]

Of Course its a Ritual.  Why Do you Mock Christ and his Word?

Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever."
'Do This In Memory Of Me' -Christ...is a ritual that we celebrate every Sunday, Our Sabbath
The day of HIS Resurrection

I am not mocking Christ.. I'm just mocking the RCC for taking something so simple and making it into a big production so they can subjugate the masses.

And All Church Members are expected to Tithe. Youre just cheap.

Do you even know what a tithe is?... because I can guarantee that even if you are giving 10%, it is not a biblical tithe.  Do you even know of the significance of the Jewish tithe in the Old Covenant?

Created your Bible  --- so... why didn't you do a better job at maintaining the manuscripts.. you did a horrible job.

BUILT Western Civilization, Spread The Gospels & Christianity worldwide.... we were supposed to spread the Gospel.. not be nation builders.
 
Developed the Free-Market Economy, Invented of University System, Birthplaced Modern Science, Founded for Western Rule of Law, Patron of Master Artists & Musicians, Renaissance works of Modern Glorious periods....  yes.. and also caused the dark ages..   Human kind lost 1000 years because of the RCC.


The Church Still Preserves Humanity- teachings of sanctity of life. ...   so do a lot of other people who are much less religious then the RCC.

And Fought Off Muslim Saracens.... we were never commanded to take up arms in the name of Christ.. as a matter of fact Christ tells us to love our enemies.. not kill them.

Actually, no one has created my bible... I still hold the works to be 66 different letters written to different peoples at different times.  The assembling of them into a single volume has done irreparable harm to christianity over the centuries... because most christians (catholic and protestant alike) believe scripture interprets scripture and that the context and culture of when they were originally written is irrevalent.  I also believe that a lot of early christian writings shed a lot of light on what the original scriptures actually meant and how they should be interpreted.

[Tantor]

Banished-

I never mentioned Kennedy's funeral, and really didn't wish to single him out as an adulterer; John Kerry, or, to remain bipartisan, Rudy Giuliani, could easily fill the bill.

I was criticising a sanctioned practise that dissolves marriages in order to allow philanderers to remain in the Church's good graces.

Where do the Protestants fit into Western Civilization?

Beats me...

Perhaps you should ask a Protestant...

John Calvin's governance legacy pretty much dominate Western Culture these days... whether you know it or not.. its the truth.

Democracy, Capitalism, individualism and most other ethos that came to start America and dominated western Europ are modeled after Calvin's Geneva model and ethos.

[normfromga]

1 Cor. 11:27-29 - Paul says that eating or drinking in an unworthy manner is the equivalent of profaning (literally, murdering) the body and blood of the Lord.
If this is just a symbol, we cannot be guilty of actually profaning (murdering) it. We cannot murder a symbol. Either Paul, the divinely inspired apostle of God, is imposing an unjust penalty, or the Eucharist is the actual body and blood of Christ.

The word used in your paraphrase (unless you can find "...is the equivalent to..." in an ancient manuscript) as "profaning" is actually enochos, which might mean " bound to", "liable for", or even "guilty of," but not, literally, "murder."

Speaking of literal, if the Eucharist involves the literal body and blood of our Lord, wouldn't the Apostles' admonition to the new saints in Antioch (Acts 15:29), to abstain from blood, seem a little restricting?

[Maybe it was faulty info  because the council was being led by James, not Cephas... ]

[TradCath]

we were never commanded to take up arms in the name of Christ.. as a matter of fact Christ tells us to love our enemies.. not kill them.

Tantor...you are one of the more ignorant people Ive wrote to.
But its typical.
So few know their history or their Bible.

Christ Commanded People to 'Sell your cloaks and buy a sword if you dont own one'

Christ also said.. 'I did Not come to Bring Peace but the Sword'

Of course we are called to defend ourselves.
We have that God Given Right.


We are to pray for our enemies and love them,
I pray for the Perfidious Jews every Friday and those of other faiths ie Muslims, Protest-ant Heetics, but we are also to Rebuke them.


Calvin Was  Jew
He was honored as such.
Jews, as enemies of Christ, and Against or Anti Christ,  introduced almost every Heresy into Christianity and that why there are over 35,000 Competing Protest-ant Sects today.





 'Martin Luther yielded to the influence of his Jewish friends unknowingly, and again, by Jewish authority, and with Jewish finance, his plot against the Catholic Church met with success. But unfortunately he discovered the deception, and became a threat to us, so we disposed of him as we have so many others who dare to oppose us. . .

Calvin was one of our Children; he was of Jewish descent, and was entrusted by Jewish authority and encouraged with Jewish finance to draft his scheme in the Reformation.
We have founded many secret associations, which all work for our purpose, under our orders and our direction.
We have made it an honor, a great honor, for the Gentiles to join us in our organizations (such as Masonry), which are, thanks to our gold, flourishing now more than ever. Yet it remains our secret that those Gentiles who betray their own and most precious interests, by joining us in our plot, should never know that those associations are of our creation, and that they serve our purpose.

We have induced some of our children to join the Christian Body, with the explicit intimation that they should work in a still more efficient way for the disintegration of the Christian Church, by creating scandals within her. We have thus followed the advice of our Prince of the Jews, who so wisely said: 'Let some of your children become cannons, so that they may destroy the Church.' Unfortunately, not all among the 'convert' Jews have proved faithful to their mission.
"As long as there remains among the Gentiles any moral conception of the social order, and until all faith, patriotism, and dignity are uprooted, our reign over the world shall not come . . .. And the Gentiles, in their stupidity, have proved easier dupes than we expected them to be.

 (Phillip II, by William Thomas Walsh, p. 248: 'The origin of Calvin' (whose real name was Chauvin).. See also: Lucin Wolf, in Transactions, Jewish Historical Society of England, Vol. XI, p. 8; Goris, Les Colonies Marchandes Meridionales à Anvers; Lea, History of the Inquisition of Spain, III, 413).'
Speeches delivered at the B'nai B'rith Convention in Paris explain Jewish role in the Protestant Reformation and Secret Societies
(London Gazette, February, 1936; and in Paris Le Reveil du Peuple)

[Tantor]

we were never commanded to take up arms in the name of Christ.. as a matter of fact Christ tells us to love our enemies.. not kill them.

Tantor...you are one of the more ignorant people Ive wrote to.
But its typical.
So few know their history or their Bible.

Christ Commanded People to 'Sell your cloaks and buy a sword if you dont own one'

Christ also said.. 'I did Not come to Bring Peace but the Sword'

Of course we are called to defend ourselves.
We have that God Given Right.


We are to pray for our enemies and love them,
I pray for the Perfidious Jews every Friday and those of other faiths ie Muslims, Protest-ant Heetics, but we are also to Rebuke them.

Such a racist... I would be careful how you post such racism on this board.

As far as your other questions

32"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

 34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
   " 'a man against his father,
      a daughter against her mother,
   a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -
    36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[e]

 37"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

This refers to enemies within our own household only.


As far as defending ourselves... God told us to turn the other cheek and if someone robs us, give them more then they are seeking.

We do not have a right to defend ourselves.. according to the New Testament.  For God is our protector... if we defend ourselves we do not have sufficient faith in the Lord.

And so what if Calvin was a Jew?... he has had a bigger impact on western society (whether that is good or bad is irrelevant due to your question) then the catholic church..

[banished]

Tantor,

The Words Christ used at the Last Supper before his Crucifixion were not 'Hocus Pocus'

I also feel sorry and ashamed for you..